Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Interesting mechanics!
Sometimes I only gloss over the rules and such, but I recommend everyone read everything, especially the game specific rules.
It seems the setup is 8 town vs 4 scum, and we vote each day who we want to give power roles to by voting to imprint people.
This part I found really interesting: An ordinary active will only stay imprinted with a power for a night/day. The rogue actives (scum) are resistant to mindswiping, and will RETAIN POWERS INDEFINITELY. Basically if we screw up and give a scum a power role, they will keep it for the rest of that game. So we have to be careful about handing out the imprints.
Another thing. We vote on imprinting just like we vote on the lynch. We can unvote imprinting too. EXCEPT, once someone reaches a majority for imprinting, unvoting doesn't matter, they will be imprinted. So everyone needs to realize that once we reach the majority for imprinting, it can't be taken back.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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When I said be careful, I meant about reaching majority. I don't mean people shouldn't vote to imprint at all. Just to be mindful that it can't be taken back once they reach majority.
Giving everyboyd an imprint might work. Maybe it would increase our chances of catching scum? It might be a big mess, but hopefully we'd have more info to work with.
But since the scum will retain their ability and the town won't... if we do the same thing tomorrow by giving everybody imprints, will the scum get more than one power? Because I wouldn't want to double up the powers on scum when we can only have one at a time. That's the only flaw I see in that plan.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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vote: Deatnote
Way to ignore my concern about scum maybe being able to retain more than one power.
Also, we don't have to do all or nothing re: imprints. I think the best thing to do is to give as many imprints out TO PEOPLE WE THINK ARE TOWN.
Unless it turns out that scum cannot retain more than one ability. Then maybe we can imprint everyone. But I think we definitely have to avoid a plan where town will have one power at a time and scum will get ANOTHER power every day.
Mod: Can scum players gain more than one power? If they are imprinted more than once, will they have access to both imprint powers, and can they use them both in one night or have to choose only one at a time? Also, can scum use a power in the same night that they perform a kill? Or does making a kill prevent them from using a secondary power?Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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So if we go with this plan we have to do it on all subsequent days. And only if we are assured scum cannot retain more than one ability.SerialClergyman wrote: If scum EVER get a majority of imprints, they will forever keep those imprints - meaning if we give a role to everyone today, all the scum players will have a role for the rest of the game.
I agree that it will probably be a clusterfuck of information. I'm not opposed to that necessarily. I like a fast, exciting game, and giving everyone powers will definitely do that. So, it might be good.
But if we want to go a more concervative route I would just give imprints to people we think are town. We can still give a lot out... I would not be opposed to that. I'm not sure I want to give a power role to a player I think is scum, unless there is some reason to think we can test them. And not knowing what our imprint will be or what their will be, this might be difficult.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Okay, didn't see mod clarification with my last post.
So essentially, scum will rack up as many powers as we give them, but only be able to use one at a time. Which is still totally in their favor. As SC said, they can pick the best one to perform.
I don't think we should imprint nobody. That's like deciding to do a vanilla game with 8:4 which sucks for town.
I think this setup encourages us to give power roles to the right people.
I still think we should give powers to anyone and everyone that we think is town. SC is right that probably some scum will end up getting powers too, but maybe we can say that power roles that are actually town should be checking the other power roles to make sure they are not doing evil with their power, or lying when they claim the next day. Because I think everyone should be claiming their action from the previous night.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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This is a really bad plan. If scum get atleast one kill power the first night, they can use it pretty much undetected and continue for the rest of the game.DeathNote wrote:Up until I learned that scum can not night kill, I was still for my plan.
@Those that apposed my idea-
I addressed the fact that scum gets power roles as well and know that they can keep them, however, trying to dodge giving them a power is going to be really difficult. With my idea, at least we know more town people have powers for tonight then scum. We won't be able to mass imprint any other day cause each scum having two powers would be insane, but hopefully we wouldn't have too. Night 1 results should confirm at leastonetown and we can just give that person(s) imprints from then on.
On N1, when everyone has a power, it's going to yield a town of complicated interractions which is going to be hard to sort out. We might be able to catch the kill, we might not.
And then, you want to confirm one person and have them be the designated power role for the rest of that game? First of all, how are you going to confirm them? You're hoping someone gets cop? What if the person who claims cop is faking scum who "confirms" a buddy, or what if the cop is insane?
And second, it does not seem like good odds to have one town power role against a four-man scum team where every player has a power! You're totally putting the scumteam on steroids, and then giving the town the least power possible.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Limerick's plan is good, except...
DICE ROLL IS CRAP!
We need to play this game like normal and decide who we think is scum, lynch them, and in the process, decide who we think is town, and vote for the imprint based on that.
Dice roll gives little info to us. We need to ELECT people to be imprinted based on who we think is town. Then we will have a record of who voted for whom to be imprinted. We can look at why they voted for a person to be imprinted and such. That way, we can see more easily who is connected to whom. Let's say that at some point we find out somebody is scum. And that person had been elected to be imprinted. Well then we can look who voted to imprint that person and why. It is another important tool we can use to scum hunt.
Dice roll will tell us nothing.
For instance, if deathnote rolled the imprint, I would certainly NOT be okay with it. Not only do I not want him getting a power, I would think it sucks that his buddies didn't even have to vote for him to get it. I want scum to have to work hard to get their powers, not win it in a lottery.
We need to ELECT, not dice roll.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I see VMD had the same thought.Vala Mal Doran wrote:How is a dice roll any better? If people vote for an imprint, that's information and discussion we get out of it. If people vote to imprint someone who's later found out as scum, we can take a closer look at the people in favour of imprinting that person, which is essentially a gold mine of information we would not have if we determined an imprint by dice roll.
^5Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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This is wrong. And scummy.The Buttonmen wrote:Basically theres a whole lot a scum and not that many town, thus voting is tilted in scum favour, so by randomizing we remove that. Now if we randomly chose a player day 1 and repeatedly imprint them and vote NL until they find scum we have a 66% of winning right now and honestly with a 2-1 town to scum ratio that's a hell of a lot better win % then playing the game straight up.
There are 4 scum and 8 town. You're making it sound like town is in the minority. We are twice as strong at the scum right now.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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When I say play this game like a regular game of mafia, I mean use our brains and scum hunt while we think about the special mechanics and plan accordingly.TheButtonmen wrote:
We can't play this game like normal if we want to win IMO, 8-4 is unwinnable by town in regular mafia, thus playing this like a regular game of mafia seems a terrible call.elvis_knits wrote: We need to play this game like normal and decide who we think is scum, lynch them, and in the process, decide who we think is town, and vote for the imprint based on that.
Rolling a dice like a monkey is not an effective strategy, and only robs the town of information.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Deathnote, I obviously want us to use powers in this game. I want us to use them intelligently and not roll dice like monkeys, or give scum a huge advantage by giving everyone powers.
What I want is that we give powers to a few (or maybe 1) person that we think is town.
I am not advocating we play a vanilla game at all.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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My method for choosing who to imprint would be that we play mafia and decide who we think is town
Seriously, if we're just going to dice roll and imprint one person repeatedly, no-lynching for days on end, waiting for the one person to draw a cop role and hit scum, well then I would ask for replacement right now because you don't actually need players for that and it's not going to be fun.
You don't even know what kind of roles the imprinter will get. What if they get tracker? Well, nobody else is going anywhere, so tracker will do nothing. What if the imprinter draw bulletproof or jailkeeper, or doc, or like a ton of other roles? The only role that will yield results with this plan is cop, and the cop has to be sane. And even if the imprinter draws cop once, they might not get it again.
HOW WILL THIS WORK?
We HAVE to still play mafia, and dole out the imprints carefully. But we cannot no-lynch forever and hope for the best.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Well, when I thought buttonman was misrepping the town's influence (ie, saying there is a lot of scum and not many town sounds like we are in the minority, which is not true), I thought he was scummy.
But I think he is actually trying to win the game (through breaking the game). So that's not scummy.
However, I am not playing a game where we vote nolynch hundreds of times in an effort to get a cop result (which may be paranoid or insane). That is not mafia.
I would rather lose a game of mafia than win a game of whatever Buttonmen is telling us to do.
I also have a bit more faith in my ability to detect scum, and a town's ability to pull together. I don't think we have to lose this game if we go a different route than buttonmen is saying.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Buttonmen - What if there are multiple cop roles -- one paranoid, one insane, one sane, one naive, but they all just say "cop" in the role pm. And if the imprinter gets different results from different cop roles, they can't even check their sanity because they don't know if they have the same cop role that they did last time.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Iamausername says it won't work.
And I for one, refuse to participate in the breaking strategy anyway. No lynch is against my religion, for one thing.
Anyone who wants to do Buttonmen's plan, raise your hand.
I am hoping that after everyone tells buttonmen they won't do this, he will finally let go of this annoying plan and play the game.
What I think we should do: lynch someone today AND give imprints to a limited number of players who we think are town. I don't really care how many, but we should probably not stretch it too far. I think the lynch will be important because it will help with scum hunting later at the very least (if we don't end up lynching scum). It will help the people with night actions know where to look, and just help in general look for scum. Even though there are special mechanics in this game, we shouldn't abandon the things that are universal in a game of mafia.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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SC, you never answered my 21:
elvis_knits wrote:
How do you figure this?SerialClergyman wrote: Perhaps we try a day without imprints and see how we go? Ugh.. that means we're in lylo if we mislynch.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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That's what I thought, but I just wanted to hear you say it to confirm.SerialClergyman wrote:Sorry EK, I thought the answer was obvious when iam posted in thread that the mafia didn't have a night kill. I didn't realise this. Normally 4/12 means 2 mislynches and lose. With no NK, it's 4 mislynches and lose.
The fact is that you did not know that mafia can't NK.
It should be obvious from my posting and mod questions on the first page that I didn't know mafia can't NK either.
This is almost certain proof that we're both town.
There is probably a small chance that a mafia member misread their role PM and thought they could kill. BUT, I happen to think that mafia would know very well what they could and could not do. Or I guess there's a chance that one or both of us faked our misunderstanding.
However, I think the odds are hugely in our favor on this. Neither of us knew that mafia can't NK. Therefore neither of us are mafia. Therefore we should be imprinted, and the town can be reasonably sure we are town. This is a huge advantage to us.
This is not to say that we should be the only ones to be imprinted. I think we should discuss other people too, and maybe imprint others if we feel confident enough.
But I definitely think SC is town. I know I am, but I wouldn't push for myself to be imprinted unless I thought it was proved to the rest of you. Look at the question I asked on the first page. I wanted to know if scum could use their imprint power at the same time as they perform their NK. (When scum don't have a NK if their imprint doesn't give it to them).
Imprint: SerialClergyman
Imprint: elvis_knitsTalk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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But that's the point -- the scum pm doesn't mention a NK because they don't have one.
I read through the sample PM's but not that closely. I think if I had actually gotten the scum PM I would have read it a little more carefully.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Well, I sort of assumed scum would get a NK to begin with.
Do you think it's possible scum would assume it also even if their PM did not mention it? And that nobody would figure out the truth?
I notice their PM also says they have a QT where they can talk at any time. Do people think it's possible that none of the scum team figured out that they don't have a NK? Or that Iamausername didn't correct them in the QT when they made some mention of NKing?Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I can possibly understand you thinking this:
Personally, I think they would figure it out. I think scum would know. Especially since they have a QT where they can daytalk. But, I can allow for the possibility that I am wrong, which is why I answered DN the way I did. Asking questions rather than just beating him into the ground. I don't want to give SC an imprint either if he's scum. For that matter, I don't care if you don't want to give me one. But I think this is possibly a REAL way to give the town an advatage here. I think that scum probably knew they had a NK. So giving me and SC imprints is the least risk to the town. I also don't care if I have to be lynched before endgame if my suggestion is SO controversial. I am banking on people seeing the truth in my hypothesis.VMD wrote:I don't think it is a safe assumption at all that scum figured out they didn't have a night kill
I also understand it looks weird that SC voted to imprint me in his first post and now I'm voting to imprint him. I'm sure he can tell you his reasoning, but I thought it had something to do with him having played with me before. Other than that, I don't know why he chose me. As far as I am concerned it just worked out that way for me, based on how we both seemed oblivious to the scum mechanics. I don't think it should bother anyone unless they really think my original assumption is wrong: that scum would know they can't NK.
It looks like you disagree, VMD, about my assumption. Why? Do you think scum often get mixed up about their killing powers?Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Well, I do agree that it could have been faked. Those things do sometimes happen, although very very rarely, in my experience. Part of your decision should be depend on the context. Do you think either me or SC were faking and why?
When I read his statement about lylo, it seems obvious that he's assuming scum get NK's. So if he said that to mislead us, it was very crafty. It's not the type of thing that's easy to fake, IMO.
If I am somehow wrong in my hypothesis, I think it would be because scum were somehow very SLOW and hadn't yet realized they don't have a NK this game. I think the chances of faking are pretty slim.
One of the reasons I think it would have come up in the QT is that when I am scum I routinely talk about the other players in the game and who I am scared of and who we should think about NKing at some point. I talk about that type of stuff right off the bat, and I assume other people do also. I also would be PMing the mod questions, especially in a theme game with wierd mechanics. I just think the NK would have come up.
There's a chance it somehow didn't, but I consider the chance sort of slim.
I think I underestimated though how weird it probably looks for me and SC to be voting to imprint each other though. At the time I voted to imprint us, I really didn't care that it looked odd since I thought my conclusion that we were both town was pretty obvious. But I do understand why it might make people a little paranoid.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I think it's a fair question of him.
Why do you disagree with my reasons for imprinting SC and me? Do you think we could be faking or do you think scum are dumb enough not to understand their own kill mechanic?Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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You're wrong, Buttonmen. Before iamausername clarified, only SC, me and Deathnote had even posted, and I don't think DN mentioned anything about the NK. So there's no way of knowing what he thought.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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But ANYONE can say that after it's been clarified. We need proof that they thought that before it was clarified, and the only people who made posts like that are me and SC. I asked if scum could use their imprint while they made their NK, and SC talked about getting to lylo through NKs.TheButtonmen wrote:DeathNote wrote:Up until I learned that scum can not night kill, I was still for my plan.Limerickx wrote:I was down for the 'imprint everyone' idea until I heard the fact that Rogues don't have a night kill ability, unless imprinted with it.
Anyone else claiming that they didn't know obviously cannot be verified after the fact has been stated in thread.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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And why am I scummy?DeathNote wrote:
I am taking this the opposite approach from everyone else. Instead of imprinting who I think is town, I will unimprint whoever starts appearing scummy. Right now, Elvis is not someone whom I would like to give a power. Doesn't mean he is scum, just means I have doubts as to whether he is town.TheButtonmen wrote:Why unimprint Elvis, or rather why just Elvis seening as your still imprinting the 11 other players?
And if I'm scummy, why aren't you voting to lynch me?
I think the fact that you're not voting to lynch me, but don't want me imprinted is a big tip off here that you don't actually think I'm scum.
And the fact that you didn't vote to unimprint SC at the same time does not make sense. If you think my reasoning over me and SC is flawed or scummy, then I think you would unimprint both of us. Choosing only me to unimprint doesn't make sense here.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I'm not totally sure of your allignment at the moment.Vala Mal Doran wrote:@elvis: What do you think of the manner in which my vote was placed on you? Do you think I am town or scum? Why?
My gut read of you is this:
I think you're town, but you're playing sort of paranoid, and not necessarily voting for who you think is scum, or not thinking through totally. Like your vote on Buttonmen, which was essentially because you found him annoying and you disliked his plan. While I happen to agree with you, those things don't indicate his allignment, and if you think about it, he probably was trying to break the game for the town. Which suggests he is town. So your vote there was not good.
Now let's look at your vote on me. You had said before that you found me really town, but immediately wondered if that meant I'm a really great scum player tricking you. This kind of thinking can lead to all sorts of bad things -- like lynching players who look town and keeping players who look like scum. It's the "too townie" fallacy. If a player looks town, they probably are. That doesn't mean you shouldn't question anything you disagree with, and change your read accordingly. But you should not automatically distrust a person who looks like town. Otherwise you're making it much harder to find scum. My philosophy is that if someone is scum, they will look like it at some point. And if they're that good that they never look like scum, then they deserve to beat me. I'm not going to start lynching players that look like town just because they might be playing a really great scum game. That will lead to lynching helpful townies and letting obvscum win. I would much rather lose to genius scum than obvscum, if I have to lose!
FWIW, I suck at being scum. I hate playing scum, and I think there is a noticable difference in how I play. I try to play like I do when I'm town and I just can't do it. Here's a link to a game that I played to endgame and won as town, the one I played with SC http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12069
Here's a link to a game that I played to endgame and won as scum. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12330
Those are links to recent games I have played all the way through. You can judge for yourself if you think I play differently as scum and town. You can judge if you think I am some great scum player. Somebody in the game where I was scum told me they think I'm a great scum player. I laughed. I REALLY don't think so, but you can judge for yourself.
But back to your vote on me. I can understand if you disagree with me about my interpretation of the "town slips" that me and SC made. But I'm not sure that it should reverse your read of me entirely. If you think I'm town and I come out with proof that I am town, why should that make you think I am scum?
Overall, my current read of you is that you're paranoid town. But I like that you are aggressive and not afraid to use your vote. You seem like the kind of exciting player that I love to play with, and once you get a bit more confidence in yourself you will not be as paranoid. I find that giving out a little trust is very beneficial. If you have good reason to believe another player is town and give them a little trust you can do a lot of good things. BUT, also, if you're wrong and the player is actually scum, giving them a little room to maneuver often makes them comfortable enough to make some scummy moves. Gives them enough rope to hang themselves. So I don't think it's such an awful risk to trust players that you have good reason to think are town. You have to have faith in yourself to be able to reverse your read if things change.
I'm sorry if that was sort of long and boring...
But I think that a lot of you here don't know me and I find that if I ramble on about my thought process it gives people more insight into how I operate.
I think we need to reach an understanding in this game of how we are going to approach things. We need to agree if we want to lynch and if we want to imprint and such things. Obviously I think we should go with my plan of lynching, while imprinting a few people we think are town, but if that's not the consensus I am fine with that. I just think it's important that we organize and DO SOMETHING! Right now we are all over the place, and most people are not voting for anything.
Everyone needs to say how they feel about lynching and imprinting so we can decide what to do. People also need to say who they think is scummy. It's page 8, we need to organize.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Starbuck, do not misrep me. I did not vote deathnote for suggesting we imprint everyone. I voted deathnote for suggesting we imprint everyone after I expressed concern that scum might be able to retain more than one power.Starbuck wrote:On Elvis & SC
SC seems to get a bit overaggressive over DeathNote's suggested idea to imprint everyone in Post 13, as did Elvis when she voted DeathNote in Post 14. He was just throwing out an idea, and you both overreacted quite a bit. Then Elvis turns around just a few posts later in Post 17 that she likes fast, exciting games and that it really isn't that bad of an idea, but only after SC alluded that it could be okay. This feels like a contradiction to me of her vote of DeathNote.
He completely ignored my point, which would make giving everyone a power very dangerous and much more beneficial to scum. So it's not just that he suggested something anti-town, but he suggested something anti-town AFTER I specifically pointed out that it could be anti-town.elvis_knits wrote:vote: Deatnote
Way to ignore my concern about scum maybe being able to retain more than one power.
Also, you are misrepping me about how I said I like fast-paced games. Here is the whole of my statement, and my conditional agreement to the "give everyone powers" plan had to be that scum wouldn't retain more than one power.
elvis wrote: So if we go with this plan we have to do it on all subsequent days. And only if we are assured scum cannot retain more than one ability.
I agree that it will probably be a clusterfuck of information. I'm not opposed to that necessarily. I like a fast, exciting game, and giving everyone powers will definitely do that. So, it might be good.
But if we want to go a more concervative route I would just give imprints to people we think are town. We can still give a lot out... I would not be opposed to that. I'm not sure I want to give a power role to a player I think is scum, unless there is some reason to think we can test them. And not knowing what our imprint will be or what their will be, this might be difficult.-- you spent a good deal of time saying how horrible me and SC are for shooting down deathnote's idea. Does this mean you agree with deathnote's idea? Do you think we should give everyone powers when the townies will lose theirs after one use and the scum will retain their powers for the rest of the game? Do you think that deathnote is town and that we are treating him unfairly?
StarbuckTalk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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This is another misrep. I did not vote deathnote for not liking his idea. I voted him because he suggested an anti-town strategy AFTER I pointed out how such a strategy was anti-town and he ignored my concern.Starbuck wrote:I also am not a fan of someone who just comes out Day 1 saying that "so&so and so&so are scum" just because you don't like their ideas. Elvis does this in Post 47.
As for buttonmen, I never voted him because I didn't like his idea. I called him scum because I felt he was lying. Please look at my reasons:
I was concerned that buttonmen was misrepping the town's power in order to push the town into a plan. I was afraid he was panicking everyone and making it seem like we couldn't win unless we went with his plan. I considered his statement of their being "a whole lot of scum and not many town" to be a lie, and that's why I called him scum.elvis_knits wrote:
This is wrong. And scummy.The Buttonmen wrote:Basically theres a whole lot a scum and not that many town, thus voting is tilted in scum favour, so by randomizing we remove that. Now if we randomly chose a player day 1 and repeatedly imprint them and vote NL until they find scum we have a 66% of winning right now and honestly with a 2-1 town to scum ratio that's a hell of a lot better win % then playing the game straight up.
There are 4 scum and 8 town. You're making it sound like town is in the minority. We are twice as strong at the scum right now.
As things went on I became convinced he was trying to break the game in the town's favor, and have since withdrawn my accusation. I have said several times that I believe he is town.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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The only thing I can think of that was insulting was the monkey comment I made about Buttonmen's plan, AND I apologized for it. I never even said buttonmen was a monkey, I said that his plan required that we play like monkeys, something that I do not want to do.Starbuck wrote:The last thing I'm not a fan of is how overly insulting and condescending elvis has been to quite a few of players. It seems right now that if we don't go with elvis's way, it's the highway. Remember that this is a mafia game and it does get heated, but it doesn't give you a reason to sit and fling ad hom at everyone that you disagree with.
As far as things being my way or the highway, that is definitely not true in the least. I cannot force anyone to do anything. Earlier today I said:
I'm not going to stop trying to convince people to help me do what I think is best. And perhaps I am slightly obnoxious at times. But it's not my way or the highway. I think we have to agree on something, even if it's not what I want. And that's what I encouraged us all to do earlier today.elvis wrote:I think we need to reach an understanding in this game of how we are going to approach things. We need to agree if we want to lynch and if we want to imprint and such things. Obviously I think we should go with my plan of lynching, while imprinting a few people we think are town, but if that's not the consensus I am fine with that. I just think it's important that we organize and DO SOMETHING! Right now we are all over the place, and most people are not voting for anything.
Everyone needs to say how they feel about lynching and imprinting so we can decide what to do. People also need to say who they think is scummy. It's page 8, we need to organize.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Starbuck, please stop misrepping me.
O RLY? Because I've been saying it for a while now.starbuck wrote:Now, in this last post, you are saying that TheButtonmen is no longer scum in your eyes, but town. How quickly you change your tune.
And this one was just earlier today:elvis post 77 wrote:Well, when I thought buttonman was misrepping the town's influence (ie, saying there is a lot of scum and not many town sounds like we are in the minority, which is not true), I thought he was scummy.
But I think he is actually trying to win the game (through breaking the game). So that's not scummy.
elvis wrote:Like your vote on Buttonmen, which was essentially because you found him annoying and you disliked his plan. While I happen to agree with you, those things don't indicate his allignment, and if you think about it, he probably was trying to break the game for the town. Which suggests he is town.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Starbuck, I don't think you really read the game that closely.Starbuck wrote:I don't feel I misrepped you at all. That's exactly how it felt when I read it. Also, if you read the rules of the game, you would have known that the rogue actives could retain their powers. It surprises me, even after your blatant posts about reading over the rules carefully, that you admit to not doing so.
I knew the scum retained their abilities from reading the rules, but my question was if they could gain more than one ability.
If they keep their first ability, plus gain more the more they are imprinted, that puts town at a significant disadvantage because we cannot have more than one ability at a time. For reference, these are the questions I asked the mod:
elvis wrote:Mod: Can scum players gain more than one power? If they are imprinted more than once, will they have access to both imprint powers, and can they use them both in one night or have to choose only one at a time? Also, can scum use a power in the same night that they perform a kill? Or does making a kill prevent them from using a secondary power?
Look, I think it was a good reason to vote him then and I think it's still a good reason. But, even if you think my reason isn't GREAT, what more do you expect from a first page vote? Do you expect me to have a better reason for voting on the first page? Why wouldn't I vote deathnote when he ignores my point about his plan being flawed? His action, to ignore me in favor of pushing his agenda, was inherently scummy.starbuck wrote: There was plenty of ideas and theories being thrown around at the time of your vote on DeathNote. I agree that not everyone should be imprinted and he sees now why this is a bad idea, but why must it only be after YOU point out that its anti-town or scummy? You are making this situation to be entirely about you, when it's not.
I really don't understand why you think I am scummy for disliking a plan which you admit is anti-town, from a player who you agree has done some scummy things. You're saying he is reading null to you, but you also admit he's done some scummy things. So, it really makes no sense for you to think I'm scummy. Unless you think deathnote is so pro-town and he's doing all pro-town things, then your attack on me doesn't make much sense.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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So I should ignore that completely scummy thing he did because he took it back?
He still is voting to imprint everyone except me. How is that pro-town? He may say that he has abandoned his plan, but he really hasn't since he's still voting like he's trying to make it happen.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Yes you are missing something.
He only claimed to not know scum had a NK after it had been clarified. I have no way of knowing if he thought that when he posted his plan or not. Read his post where he imprints everyone and makes his plan. He says nothing about whether he thinks scum can NK or not, so I don't know what he thought.
DeathNote wrote:Imprint: everyone
Think about it...
There are two ways to go about finding scum, with powers or without. If we go without and not imprint anyone, then we will be relying completely on our cunning to find scummy players via meta, lurking, or whatever other means you use.
If we go with powers, then we will be hoping for town related investigative roles that could help us catch scum. Both ways have its faults and pluses...
I personally like the power root, at least for tonight, as scum hunting can become difficult for me with so many players I do not know. If we are to imprint tonight, we should imprint everyone as town would have twice as many night actions available to them compared to town. We can then claim some results, assuming they help us find scum or confirmed town, and imprint off that. For example, if we imprint everyone and I get a cop/investigative ability that I use on Elvis_knits that flips her town, then we can give her an imprint the next day.
Questions?Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I don't think anybody ever answered this post by SC. Anybody who thinks me and SC are scum buddies, I would like you to respond to this post:
SerialClergyman wrote: Essentially you are saying:
1) Elvis and I are scumbuddies.
2) I decided to obviously imprint my scumbuddy in my first posto f the game (the same one who happens to be the player I've played with most extensively on site.)
3) elvis and I seperately make comments that indicate we don't realise the scum has no night kill but in completely different ways. (This isn't an arranged plan yet, because if it was then elvis could have picked a buddy that didn't decide to imprint her first post to make comments that show the aren't aware of a NK.)
4) Iam clarifies this in thread.
5) Within 40 minutes of that post, elvis realises she could use this to our advantage and asks me why I thought we were in lylo.
6) Iignore the question for plenty of posts and a day or two, then elvis pushes the point and asks again, at which point I answer and she reveals her thoughts.
Now - all of that is possible, but I think obviously unlikely.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Starbuck, please answer this post. It was directed at you.
You are criticising me for not rescinding my imprint on SC and myself. Why would I do that? I'm almost sure he's town. I stand by my theory.elvis_knits wrote:So I should ignore that completely scummy thing he did because he took it back?
He still is voting to imprint everyone except me. How is that pro-town? He may say that he has abandoned his plan, but he really hasn't since he's still voting like he's trying to make it happen.
YET, you are not giving Deathnote any problem for failing to unimprint everyone, even after he agreed his plan is bad. At this point, he has admitted his plan is anti-town and yet, he is still voting everyone. And yet, you don't care?Talk nerdy to me.
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I'm really tired now from Christmas shopping so I don't have the will to quote and comment on everything. I'll put down some of my random thoughts for now, and will probably come back to some things later.
Thoughts on starbuck: every time I play with her I think she's scum (I think I've played with her in more games than twilight, but I dunno which ones), so I'm trying not to be too judgemental about her at the moment. I'm just pointing out where she possibly missed something from reading too fast, or misinterpreted/misunderstood me. As time goes by, I hope to get a better read on her, and see if me and her can reach some common ground. I feel like she is not listening to me at the moment. I do agree though that she is defending deathnote and lewarcher, which is odd.
Lewarcher: hadn't looked at him very much until now since I have been busy feuding with others I think VMD has a point with her line of questioning re: "pages 1-5 mean nothing." It does not seem like he's looking very hard for scum if he can't find anything in 5 pages of a game.
RE: VMD's 265, but I have a slightly different comment about lewarcher saying he doesn't trust players who take the lead on day 1. First of all, reminds me of Starbuck saying I'm trying to control the town and force my will on you all... so it's interesting that lewarcher's comment is similar.
The other things is: Why does it bother anyone that players are being vocal and playing hard and actively trying to hunt scum? Those are all good things! That is what will help us win. If you disagree with a person's conclusion, obviously say so, but do not discourage people from playing the game. If you think a player is taking the leadin a scummy way, then yes, I agree you shouldn't trust them. But to distrust anyone who takes the lead? That doesn't make sense to me, and I think it would encourage people to stop scum hunting, to lurk more and do less. That would be very bad for the town.
Discouraging scum hunting is very scummy, IMO.
I mostly see scum being more subtle anyway. I don't usually see scum putting themselves out there and leading the town. Because it's really hard to fake sincere scum hunting, and the more you post and originate ideas the more chance you have of being caught.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Buttonmen makes good point in 267. DN seems to unimprint anyone who people start to talk about as scum, without knowing or understanding the reasons why the person is being attacked.
On to lewarcher.
Lew seems to misunderstand the messiah/pug. Part of this may have to do with messiah misnumbering pug's post. I sorted it out. For reference, DN's post is 52 where he presents the all-or-nothing power plan, Pugs' post is 78, and messiah's post is 82.
I agree with pug and messiah here, since DN tried to make us choose to either give everyone powers or nobody, and misrepped me saying I wanted to play without powers. He says he considers any plan to without everyone getting powers to be "without powers." I think this is misleading and pushes the town into an all-or-nothing decision which it does not need to do.
lew, you make several comments about my posting which are criticisms of me, but pretty vague, and not things I think actually have a bearing on allignment, although I think you intend them to mean that you find me scummy.
1)
I was trying to show why buttonmen's plan wouldn't work. I think that's pretty constructive, if I can stop a line of planning which will ultimately go nowhere.Elvis's post 85: clever point, but not useful. The fog surrounding imprinted roles is the very philosophy of this game. Isn't this perhaps nonconstructive criticism?
2)
You really think it's WIFOM for me to assume that scum would have read and understood their role PM and known they did not get a NK in this game without getting an imprint? Please explain.Elvis 123-124: WIFOM on SC's account. Weird.
Elvis 126: glorious WIFOM.
Elvis 129: declared WIFOM out of frustration.
3)
I need more explanation on this too, because I want to know what is clumsy, and if you think a "clumsy" answer is scummy and why.Elvis-Starbuck 198-199: Elvis seems clumsy as she tries to answer Starbuck's FoS on her. Last two lines lack of any good argument and try to invoke self-conscious town alignment. Noise, mainly.
And why do you think I am "invokign self-conscious town allignment" rather than actually being town alligned?
4)
Why do you want me to comment before you do in a question directed to people who think me and SC are scum? What is the point?Elvis 231: did you? You do, than I will post my comments about SC's options list.
231 is addressed to people who think me and SC are scum buddies (I am obviously NOT one of those people). 231 shows how convoluted, ridiculous and improbable the idea is that me and SC are buddies. I obviously agree with SC, if you couldn't figure that out.
I want people to defend how they think it is reasonable to assume me and SC are buddies pulling a gambit.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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1) I'm assuming imprints are power roles. Which power roles are available, I don't know. You think this is too much of a crazy assumption and I shouldn't speculate on it?
2) But what do you think? You don't think that scum would read and understand their role PM and understand their kill mechanic?
3) I'm wondering if clumsy is the right word, since it doesn't really fit IMO. Can you explain a bit more what you don't like about those statements or use a different word?
Clumsy usually means awkward or uncoordinated. So when you say I am clumsy, I think you mean that I am not explaing myself well, or not making sense.
4) I already gave you my comment. I agree with all of what SC said. Me and him being scum buddies is ridiculous. This is the post again:
So, anyone who thinks me and SC are scum buddies should be able to defend how this is at all likely to happen, or present a different set of events that they think could have happened.SerialClergyman 154 wrote:.. I will probably never have a way of knowing anotherp layer's alignment, so any time I vote to imprint I'm hoping they are town. But them being a good player is also a necessary condition to them being imprinted. Because a bad townie with an imprint isnot very good for the town, but a bad scum with an imprint is still very bad for the town. So the ability level of the player imprinted makes a difference.
Ok, so you're saying the scheme was cooked up in the 40 minutes between Iam making that qualification and elvis asking me why I thought we would be in lylo after 1 night? It's possible, i guess, but I'd still say unlikely.
Essentially you are saying:
1) Elvis and I are scumbuddies.
2) I decided to obviously imprint my scumbuddy in my first posto f the game (the same one who happens to be the player I've played with most extensively on site.)
3) elvis and I seperately make comments that indicate we don't realise the scum has no night kill but in completely different ways. (This isn't an arranged plan yet, because if it was then elvis could have picked a buddy that didn't decide to imprint her first post to make comments that show the aren't aware of a NK.)
4) Iam clarifies this in thread.
5) Within 40 minutes of that post, elvis realises she could use this to our advantage and asks me why I thought we were in lylo.
6) Iignore the question for plenty of posts and a day or two, then elvis pushes the point and asks again, at which point I answer and she reveals her thoughts.
Now - all of that is possible, but I think obviously unlikely.
Anyone who is putting me and SC high on their scum list should be answering this post. Since you, lew, have FOSed me and SC, you should answer it.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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So, it's page 12 and nobody has more than 2 votes toward a lynch, and I don't think we've gotten a decent bandwagon going all game. I don't know what most people think on the idea of lynching vs. no-lynching, or if we should imprint or not and who/how many.
/wristsTalk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Why is aggressiveness scummy? I don't think that it is, so I want to know why you think it's bad.lewarcher82 wrote:For what regards the answer to your question, elvis, I am not sure if you are both scum (see below): it is true that sc opening the very game with the imprint would have been crazy. But he surely had an answer ready, he could have said that he was just random imprinting as he waited for the game to take-off... It's a weapon that can work both ways.
Anyway, I get scumvibes from SC, I find his posts too aggressive towards Starbuck, and I think that his attempt to remind everyone of DN's scumminess without even trying to interact directly with DN is also pretty scummy.
What do you think of DN?
I'm not trying to attack you at this point, I'm trying to understand you better, and point out where I disagree with you and why.lew wrote: I will make it clear: I think that he is scum, and this is more than a FoS, this is in fact my vote. The fact that I FoS elvis does not mean that I would vote her right now (she is attacking me and therefore we interact a lot). I can accept a scenario with SC as scum and elvis as town, where the apparent (but possible) buddying interaction is a mere coincidence.
I never said that though.lewarcher wrote: fine, clumsy is not the right word. Sorry (ESL!!!). What I meant is that if the best argumentation is "How can I do different than this, since I know I am town?", it's like there's no argumentation at all.
Starbuck was saying that I was being overbearing and arguing my point of view too forcefully.
Do you agree and do you think that is scummy?
My answer, the last few sentences which you dislike are this:
I reject the idea that being aggressive or forcefull in your opinions is scum tell. I rather think thatelvis wrote:I'm not going to stop trying to convince people to help me do what I think is best. And perhaps I am slightly obnoxious at times. But it's not my way or the highway. I think we have to agree on something, even if it's not what I want. And that's what I encouraged us all to do earlier today.criticisingsomeone for having strong opinions, is scummy.Talk nerdy to me.
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Woooo farside!
I like Plum's post. Everything is very reasonable. I am totally fine with her viewpoint on me imprinting me and SC -- the gist of it that I got is that she can see how I would feel that way and that I probably am right, but it's not enough of a sure thing for her to feel comfortable going with it. That is the sort of reaction I was expecting from people who didn't want to go with it. Because my reasoning does make sense. I happen to think that the chances of it being a gambit or a PM misunderstanding are low enough for me to take a chance on SC, but I can understand if others do not think the chances are quite low enough and they would rather be conservative. I understand that. Part of why I am willing to make that leap of faith on SC is probably because I had the same misunderstanding as he did and since I did it as a town, it more makes me think he did under the same circumstances. But none of the rest of you were in my position, and you are in the position of having to make a small leap on two people whereas I am only making it on one. So I can understand it being a little harder for others.
Plum's reaction seems pro-town to me.
Some of the other reactions I got from people have not seemed pro-town. They have seemed like panicked attempts to stop the town from confirming two town players.
Here's my current thoughts on people:
ALASKA (SerialClergyman) - town (you all know why I think so!)
ARIZONA (Starbuck) - scum (but she always reads like that to me)
COLORADO (Messiah) - leaning scum (hasn't originated ideas, follower)
FLORIDA (Limerickx) - town (his conservative plan seems pro-town, but I want to see him scum hunting more)
GEORGIA (Plum) - town (come on, everything she says makes sense)
HAWAII (TheButtonmen) - town (breaking strategy seems designed to help town, no matter how much we butt heads)
IOWA (lewarcher82) - neutral (I have a hard time reading ESL players because sometimes I dismiss scummy things as language problems, looking forward to getting a better read on the replacement)
KANSAS (jasonT1981 farside22) - null (jason posted nothing)
MONTANA (Pug89) - neutral (posted some good things, feel like pug is sitting on the sidelines a little though, gives me the feeling of maybe letting townies fight? I think pug and messiah have agreed a lot which worries me slightly)
NEVADA (DeathNote) - scum (Anti-town all game. I looked into his meta and saw the game where he was recently modkilled... makes me think he is not a very responsible player and prone to impulsive plays no matter his allignment. He may look scummy no matter what, but the things he is pushing for are so tilted to scum's favor that I think he's scum.)
OHIO (Vala Mal Doran) - neutral/town (some of her votes have not been great like on buttonmen, but overall I do have a gut town read on her)
VIRGINIA (elvis_knits) - town!Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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@ farside, I've been over all the issues surrounding me and SC, so I think you will see my explanation in thread the more you read. If you still want me to respond after you finish reading, I'll say it again.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I actually am not in favor of policy lynches, and I am not suggesting one on you deathnote. I think that you are impulsive no matter your allignment, which suggests you're probably a little more transparent as scum.
Fresh ideas and radical thinking are great, but the ideas you are bringing to the table favor scum. The fact that you never voted to unimprint everyone, supports the idea that you would still like to imprint as many people as possible. And the people you are unimprinting doesn't seem like you're doing it because YOU think they're scum, but because other people are talking like that person might be scum. So anyone who gets a little heat you unimprint them. Shows you're not thinking for yourself and are just following the pack in terms of who to suspect. That is scummy. Nobody is trying to policy lynch you.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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You realize that's a scum tactic, right?DeathNote wrote:
Because I know how this will turn out. My tactic right now is called, appeal to emotion.elvis_knits wrote:How is that a policy lynch?
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... to_emotionTalk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I'll respond to other things in a bit (I think farside may have asked me some Q's), but I just wanted to get this out before I slog through the thread:
I am more sure SC is town at this point.
If he were scum who happened to get lucky with me confirming him in error, I doubt he would go around suggesting he gets lynched first in an effort to prove me town.
Well, according to his plan, he doesn't need to die if DN flips scum. So unless he's DN's scum buddy, then he MUST be town who really really believes DN is scum. There is no way he would say what he's saying if he's scum and DN is not. Because if SC is scum and knows DN is town, he would not offer up his life to lynch deathnote, knowing he is condemning himself to death
Possible scenarios are 1) DN scum, SC scum; and 2)SC town thinks DN is scum
I think it is unlikely that DN is his scum buddy, for their interaction the whole game.
Therefore, I think possibility 2 is much more likely.
SC is town who VERY MUCH believes DN is scum. Nothing else makes sense.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I didn't say that, buttonmen did. Saying 8-4 is unwinnable without power roles. I'm the one who said that was wrong.reck wrote:Elvis saying 8-4 is unwinnable in regular mafia seems really, really incorrect.
How is VMD voting buttonmen a town tell? She says she didn't vote him because she thought he was scum. I sympathize with her reason, which was frustration, but I don't think it's a town tell at all. I have excused her vote based on the overall feel of her play, but this is not a town tell at all.VMD wrote:VMD voting Buttonmen, however, seems like a town tell. Imprint: VMD and Imprint: Buttonmen. I think we can gain valuable information from the two of them being power roles. The way I see it, they can't both be scum, so in my mind I'm imprinting one guaranteed (imo) townie, possibly two.
Also, I have a problem with you wanting to imprint both on the thinking that they can't both be scum. Even if you think there's one guaranteed town there, and possibly two, it sounds like you think there's a good chance one is scum. I don't think you should be imprinting anyone you think has a good/reasonable chance of being scum. It seems like the only thing you're sure of is that they aren't both scum. So what if one is scum and one is town? 1:1 is hardly worth it to us, since scum will retain their power for the rest of the game and town will not.
I think we have to be much more careful with imprints than this.
I'm not comfortable with you imprinting people because of hunches. I need to atleast hear more reasoning about why you feel this strongly about VMD.VMD wrote:Imprint: Reckoner. I'm the only person I know isn't a rogue at this point, though I have hunches (VMD).
VMD repeatedly asked if anyone knew my meta and seemed paranoid that I was some awesome scum player because of my join date. That's really bad reasoning for suspecting someone, especially because I know that I do suck at being scum. But you don't have to take my word for it, and I wouldn't expect you to. That's why I linked to two recent games where I played to endgame, one as town, one as scum. This was so you could decide for yourself. I'm not trying to trick you, I'm trying to give you a chance to make up your own mind.reck wrote:I'm not a fan of e_k telling us she sucks at being scum and then trying to give us her scum meta in 182. I am highly suspicious of someone who tries to say they suck at playing scum. It's like when I used to go on beach trips with my grandma as a kid, and she'd say she sucked/didn't know how to play certain board games/card games, then would school us all. I KNOW YOUR TRICKS, GRAND-- I MEAN, ELVIS!
...reck wrote:Oh, great. Here's Starbuck's catchup post. *sigh* Nothing to really comment on there.
Nothing to say about Starbuck at all? She wrote a whole lot the one day she was posting here. And you have NOTHING to say about her? Then you go on to say she's null until SC attacks her, so you are leaning town on her? She put out a lot of info, and you're talking about none of it. I would be fine with you having a town read of her if you actually had a reason. But you're making no comment on her. You have nothing to say about her, but she's town?
If she's scum, you're her buddy.
Also, equating Starbuck defense of DN to me and SC is not a fair comparison. We have a specific reason to think the other is town. Starbuck has no reason to think DN is town. In fact I think she put him at neutral but is defending him. That doesn't make sense.
Overall, with reckoner's catch-up post, my major problem is that I see a lack of reasoning for imprinting VMD, and for defending Starbuck.
Either of these actions could be okay if he had reasoning that made sense, but he doesn't. Reckoner seems to be imprinting VMD based on her vote on buttonmen (which was a vote for someone she didn't think was scum). Reckoner seems to be defending Starbuck for no real reason.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I don't think I've ever gotten a scum PM that doesn't specifically lay out the night actions. Every time I have been able to kill, my PM has said something like "each night your team can target one player for the night kill."farside wrote:EK wrote:
Some of the other reactions I got from people have not seemed pro-town. They have seemed like panicked attempts to stop the town from confirming two town players.
Okay now that I pointed out the role and how it was written to the scum and how scum mods do not automatically put in their role PM's that scum have a kill between them how do you figure this clears you and SC?
I haven't seen PM's that don't mention the NK if the scum have one.
If you have seen this, I'm interested to see it.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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On Starbuck: I know people tend to see her as scum since I have experienced this myself. I have said that I don't want to judge her too quickly because of this, but that doesn't mean she gets a free pass. I still want to discuss her points, and try to decide her allignment. I question why you aren't really looking at her comments and are saying "nothing to see here!" And if you think DN is scum, why you aren't questioning Starbuck's defense of DN.
On VMD: why do you see her vote on buttonmen as a town tell?Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell