Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[Socrates]

The case in short on reck:
He flip flopped his views on SB day 2 with no cause.
He jumped on a BW from SC to SB day 2 after calling SC out saying he was trying to set up SB's lynch. (IE: look how reck jumps on a BW with little reason) some people are talking about the digging hole comment (I can see this as an attempt to jump on a weak vote and BW against me).


Sorry if that wasn't 40 words or less I wasn't counting.

Intriguing. So the case seems to be that he changed his views at convenient times?

I'll look into this myself when I get more time, but if anyone knows this information off-hand, I would appreciate it:
What was the status of the Starbuck wagon when he flip-flopped?
Has Reck done this with other players than Starbuck/SC?
Was Reck on the DeathNote wagon? If so, when did he join?
How signifigant a factor was Reck on both of these wagons? (As in, would the wagon be able to go through if he decided to stay off?)

@RECK: Can I get a scumlist from you?

[Pug89]

I'm sorry I'm not posting as much as everyone else. I'm not on my computer as much when I'm home as when I'm at school so it is harder for me to keep up. I go back in a little over a week so my posting will increase then.

E_K and SC, I think the problem people have with your buddying is the LEVEL that it is apparent, and the earliness in which it happened.

You give the appearance that you're unflexable in your assurance that the other is town, a view that you seemed to cement VERY VERY early on in the game. Now, you just said you would change if the situation warrants, and thats fine, but its the APPEARANCE that you put out that puts people on edge.

QFT. SC started this from the

first post

of the game by imprinting elvis.

I feel at the moment there are plenty of town tells being ignored or unmentioned because it's put down to more nauseating buddying. There are plenty of reasons to think elvis (and myself) town besides from the one WIFOMic statement.

What would these be exactly?

479: buttonmen "SuperMegaDuperUltraConfirmVote: SerialClergyman" and wants to finish imprint discussion (obsession with imprinting before flips, and since he's been the front-runner for imprints this is pretty much him begging for imprint)

I don't really read it that way. This was after DN's flip and I believe most of the town wanted an imprint for the night not just him. I also didn't see anything I construe as begging for an imprint.

I personally would like to do a second imprint, if only because I would feel a lot more at ease about not possibly being manipulated in some way. I also think that the extra risk of a second imprint is worth the reward, as many roles relate to other PRs (tracker being the most relevant.)

I agree here.

What exactly is the town consensus right now in regards to how to end the day? I'm for 2 imprints but I have a lot to catch up on so I don't know what everyone else wants right know.

I also agree that no NK should be used tonight if that ability is received.

[Socrates]

Thank you for answering my questions SC. I gather from the recent discussion that SC and EK have strong town reads on each other and are vocal about it?

I am going to be different and say that that is not scummy, and the amount of hoopla that seems to be being made about it is quite interesting. Scum tieing themselves so strongly to their partner is quite frankly terrible scum strategy, and there is no reason for them to do it other than a WIFOM gambit. I hope SC and EK know what they are doing though, because a scum would LOVE to form that kind of connection with a townie.

[Socrates]

As to the discussion about whether or not to imprint another person, I don't think there is much optimal strategy here than to vote to imprint your strongest town reads and nothing more. If there isn't a second person that we feel we can trust with a power role, then we shouldn't force ourselves to do so, and if there IS a person we think we can trust, then you should vote to support that guy, regardless of the previous number of imprints.

I would like to have a few personal interactions with Limerickx and Pug (they are the leading imprint getters, right), before I make a decision about that.

Pug and Limerickx, can I get scum lists from both of you?

[xRECKONERx]

Not for a few days.

[Limerickx]

Soc, my last scumlist is found here in Post 856

Or course, replacement players replace old players.
Not much has changed on my end. If anything, xRECK might be my number one suspect over SC. I'm also going to keep CTD more in mind, only because his predecessor was suspicious in my mind.

Other than that, I've seen little to substantially change my list as it was in that post.

[Limerickx]

Also Socrates, I'll agree that as far as SC/E_K are concerned, I'd imagine its far far more likely that either both are town, or it is a one mafia to one townie relationship. Of course, it could be some sort of crazy gambit, but I find it unlikely.

That being said, its easy to see why it rubs people the wrong way, as it DOES appear like it would prevent one from analyzing the other honestly, and it DID form so early in the game, when I dont think either could have been that sure about the other.

[elvis_knits]

pug, you commented on a tiny part of my comments about buttonmen. What did you think of my buttonmen case as a whole or my other cases?

Who are you suspicious of and why?

[iamausername]

-=Vote Count #30=-

No Lynch (3) - Montana, Iowa, Hawaii
Alaska (1) - Ohio
Iowa (1) - Kansas

Not Voting (5) - Alaska, Georgia, Florida, Colorado, Virginia

6 to lynch.

-=Imprint Count #30=-

Hawaii (6) - Hawaii, Kansas, Ohio, Florida, Montana, Iowa

Florida (3) - Florida, Ohio, Kansas
Montana (3) - Alaska, Iowa, Montana
Georgia (2) - Iowa, Georgia
Virginia (1) - Iowa
Ohio (1) - Ohio
Iowa (1) - Iowa
Kansas (1) - Ohio
Colorado (0)
Alaska (0)

6 to imprint.

ALASKA = SerialClergyman
COLORADO = CrashTextDummie
FLORIDA = Limerickx
GEORGIA = Socrates
HAWAII = TheButtonmen
IOWA = xRECKONERx
KANSAS = farside22
MONTANA = Pug89
OHIO = Knight of Cydonia
VIRGINIA = elvis_knits

mod: Is imprinting guaranteed to have a beneficial effect on the recipient? If not, is it possible for an imprint to have negative effects upon them, such as loss of vote, millerdom, change of alignment, post restrictions, nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, or death?

Imprints may have the potential to negatively affect one's faction, but they all have a potential positive effect too. There are no purely negative imprints.

Mod: Are the effects of the imprint guaranteed to be an activated ability of some sort, or can passive ones be granted as well, such as a double vote?

No comment.

[Socrates]

I've been fairly clear that I am most suspicious of SC. I don't like the logic he uses....anywhere. I didn't like the hammer of DN when everyone else was talking about imprinting. 'Taking matters into your own hands' always puts me ill at ease. He led what I felt was a weak SB lynch in day 2. He pointed out other players poor voting records, when his was most suspicious of anyone else’s. He started favoring imprinting and not lynching only after SBs lynch, which would put him under the most suspicion.

What were you doing day 2 when SC was leading what you felt was a bad lynch?
Regarding your last two points, what would you

expect

a town SC to do, that those points are scummy?

I started with a town read on Messiah, but that decreased as the game went on. Since being replaced by CTD, I am feeling much better, and wonder if my increasing suspicion of Messiah was simply the result of Messiah being less and less involved, and maybe my initial read was correct.

Would you please explain what you mean by your town read decreased as time went on? What did he do that you don't like?

Plum, I find hard to get a read on. Really long catch-up posts, lots of V/LA. I can admit when I just ::shrug:: at times. I DO note that she is not voting to imprint any of the top getters, for what it’s worth, and her only vote imprint vote other than the one for herself rests on Elvis, who, whatever your feeling are regarding her, I just don't think is one of the 'safer' picks. In other words, if Buttonmen turned out being scum, I'd be like "Really? Well, he fooled me." If Elvis turned out to be scum, would anyone be THAT surprised?

So you don't feel Plum could justify a town read on Elvis?

Buttonmen: I voted to imprint him, so that should be an indicator that I think he is town. Same reasons apply as to most people.

What has buttonmen done other than the early discussions about gamebreaking that makes you think he is town?

xReckx: I get a bad vibe off. I didn't get where he was going with Farside digging a hole for herself, He seems to be pushing hard for a Pug imprint (followed by relative silence from Pug, one of the reasons why I am reluctant to vote to imprint Pug)
In fact, I think this deserves a little more 'indepthness', which I'll do in a following post.

Did you ever do this 'indepthness'?

Re: Buttonmen's game breaking stuff. Can someone tell me why this makes him likely town? I'll tell you this much, the first thing I would do as scum in this type of game would be to play a game of "Lets break the setup guys!" in order to score easy town points while being completely comfortable in the thought that any half competent Mod or their reviewers would have caught any gamebreaking strategy's. It allows one to avoid taking any alignment significant stances while still appearing to have to towns best interest at heart.

Is it scummy? Hell no.
Is it null? hell yes.

Imprints may have the potential to negatively affect one's faction, but they all have a potential positive effect too. There are no purely negative imprints.

Would you classify a paranoid or naive cop investigation as a purely negative imprint?

[TheButtonmen]

@ Socrates; Have you finished your read through?

[elvis_knits]

I think I like this socrates dude.

[Limerickx]

What were you doing day 2 when SC was leading what you felt was a bad lynch?
Regarding your last two points, what would you

expect

a town SC to do, that those points are scummy?

First of all, I said 'weak lynch.' not bad lynch, which I think is important to differentiate. I felt it was weak in that in that I didn't feel his reasons for leading the lynch were as rock solid as he did (because he was oh-so-sure!.) If I remember correctly, his main reason for a lynch was that Starbuck was defending DN. I didn't feel like she was defending DN, but saying that the arguments used against DN weren't completely logical, or that they had flaws. I had very little problem with SC thinking Starbucks actions were scummy, but he acted like his opinion was 100% right, no doubt about it.

First question (what was I doing for two days) SC hammered Wednesday night. I posted my imprints, and noted I didn't like SCs hammer when everyone else was talking about imprint issues. I went to sleep after making a comment to farside about voting to imprint yourself.
Thursday: Work until late, then dinner with girlfriend, then home to pack (Atlantic City.) Checked the board, didn't post. Rereading, it seemed that the Starbuck movement was starting to build, but I must not have thought anything so important was going on that I had to carefully read everything and post (I might have still been mad at SC, I admit to being grumpy at his hammer for a little bit)
Friday: Work late, went straight to a bus to Atlantic City. Checked my phone on the trip and saw the mounting stuff against Starbuck. Was slightly confused at how strong it seemed to be getting, decided to read everything when I got the chance. Didn't get to, Messiah hammered Friday night.

Regarding my last two points:
a) Regarding poor voting records re:SC. Fair, I might have worded this poorly. I was more bothered by the fact that he did this POORLY in my mind (I took offense with him criticizing my voting record (second to last on DN, not on SB) when in my mind, his was far worse (he hammered DN when people were talking about potential imprints and started and pushed the lynch on SB (townie.)) So while analyzing voting records can of course be of great value, it was more about his conclusion and his logic behind it, and after pointing out that his record was quite possibly the worst of anyone, he kept trying to make it seem like the fact that I wasn't on the SB lynch made me MORE suspicious that him, that not voting for Starbuck meant I was not scummy for not recognizing the greatness of his case (which was wrong!)
b) Regarding when he started favoring imprints: SC was in favor of imprinting and not lynching only AFTER Starbuck was lynched, a lynch he started and pushed for. Not on the first day, not on the second day, only after the person he pushed to lynch flipped townie.

Would you please explain what you mean by your town read decreased as time went on? What did he do that you don't like?

I think that I felt good about Messiah at first, but that might have just been because he agreed with what I had to say regarding the theory of this games mechanics early on. As the game went on, I just felt like that was a lot of what he did, that I felt good about him because he thought my ideas on game theory were good (yay! someone thinks my ideas are right!) and for not much else. In Messiahs case, its more like I was really happy at the start, and a 'lack of maintenance' started to erode it as I realized that I got a townie vibe for maybe the wrong reasons. It kind of hard to say really, kind of a gut thing I guess.

So you don't feel Plum could justify a town read on Elvis?

I wouldn't put it that way. Its kind of just surprising. I find it odd that Plum gets a town read on Elvis and nobody else more (or in other words, Elvis is MOST TOWN) Elvis (if I recall, this is 100% off memory, so I may be mistaken, Elvis, did you ever say something along these lines?) even noted herself that she wouldn't be surprised if she never got an imprint. I just find it funny that Plum would find Elvis so much more town than anyone else, not that she got a town vibe off her AT ALL.

What has buttonmen done other than the early discussions about gamebreaking that makes you think he is town?

I think he is fairly open about who is he suspicious of, is unapologetic about his thoughts and theories (Its funny, sometimes I think I'd be much less suspicious of SC if I thought his crazytime logic made an ounce of sense.) When he responds to other people asking questions I don't get the feeling that he has to try to make stuff up to answer. Truthfully, his gamebreak logic is one of the smaller reasons I get a town vibe off him. I felt good about him before that too.

Did you ever do this 'indepthness'?

Yes, in the next post, right HERE. I recently linked to this post to answer to SC why I thought that if xRECK were to ever flip scum, I would be more suspicious of Pug.

Re: Buttonmen's game breaking stuff. Can someone tell me why this makes him likely town? I'll tell you this much, the first thing I would do as scum in this type of game would be to play a game of "Lets break the setup guys!" in order to score easy town points while being completely comfortable in the thought that any half competent Mod or their reviewers would have caught any gamebreaking strategy's. It allows one to avoid taking any alignment significant stances while still appearing to have to towns best interest at heart.

Is it scummy? Hell no.
Is it null? hell yes.

I think saying NULL is a little strong, but I agree that it shouldn't be what swings someone from 'he is mafia' to 'he is townie' side. For me the fact that I get good vibes from Button to begin with is augmented by the fact that even if a gamebreaking strategy is shut down for one way or another, thinking about things can still help think about BETTER ways to play. If I recall, SC had some things to say on the topic of gamebreaking around the same time, but of course he is still high up on my scumlist! But I do agree to the basic premise of this.

Any other questions for me? I gather you asked these of me mainly because Pug and I are the next two highest imprint vote getters, and assuming that we do imprint one other person, I'd of course want it to be me (I'm on record as saying that NOT wanting an imprint is more scummy than the vice-versa)

[SerialClergyman]

I already do.

Mind you he's a good player and I wouldn't put coming in here and saying those things beyond his scum play.

I think the mod is referring to things like giving someone a kill, which could be negative for your team but essentially could have positive results.

I think it's no surprise that the people who are less interested in thinking I'm scum have played with me before. Socrates question of asking what you'd expect a town SC to do on the start of D2 is dead on the money and what I said to CTD - I'm sure that every action he's posted has the motivation of a town SC being convinced DN and SB were scum together *shrug*.

I'm surprised anyone can read parts of this game (say the start of D2) and not think that.

I'm thinking we should possibly look to no lynch sooner rather than later. I'm worried knowing we won't lynch today is messing our information up.

[SerialClergyman]

Zzz simulposting.

The comment 'I already do' was directed to this:

I think I like this socrates dude.

[Limerickx]

One more note Socrates, I don't know what the Mod would answer re: your question about 'paranoid or naive cop investigation as a purely negative imprint?' but I would imagine the LOGICAL answer would be that there is nothing good about those roles, assuming they are given to a townie. Since the role is lost the next day, there is zero way (that I can think of) that getting this role would have any use. Just my opinion.

[farside22]

I'm thinking we should possibly look to no lynch sooner rather than later. I'm worried knowing we won't lynch today is messing our information up.

Is there some deadline I'm unaware of? Are you in a hurry for some reason?

Someone needs to answers socrates questions 1075. I would but I feel like under crap these past few days and all I want to do is go back to sleep.

[TheButtonmen]

I'm thinking we should possibly look to no lynch sooner rather than later. I'm worried knowing we won't lynch today is messing our information up.

Is there some deadline I'm unaware of? Are you in a hurry for some reason?

Someone needs to answers socrates questions 1075. I would but I feel like under crap these past few days and all I want to do is go back to sleep.

Pressure is cranked way back due to knowing no-ones going up a rope which means we get less information from today, is how I read that.

[farside22]

I'm thinking we should possibly look to no lynch sooner rather than later. I'm worried knowing we won't lynch today is messing our information up.

Is there some deadline I'm unaware of? Are you in a hurry for some reason?

Someone needs to answers socrates questions 1075. I would but I feel like under crap these past few days and all I want to do is go back to sleep.

Pressure is cranked way back due to knowing no-ones going up a rope which means we get less information from today, is how I read that.

And SC isn't voting so what is the point of that statment?

[CrashTextDummie]

Had a go at Pug. He really has played a rather clean game. The DN vote seemed pretty natural and didn't smell of bussing. There's instances in his play that subtly hint at him being pro-town and it would take a scum of considerable finesse to plant them deliberately. About the only thing that strikes me as worrying is his participation, he has 23 posts out of a total of 1093 and spent a sizable amount of his contributions on strategy discussion. But all things considered, I don't find him to be a very likely scum candidate at this point.

Not my favorite imprint target (pending further analysis), but certainly not the worst.

I'll check out Buttonmen next, then Plum/replacement most likely. I'll try to make it quick, as I find myself in rare agreement with SC, with a lack of voting, this day is considerably less fruitful in discussion as I imagine tomorrow is gonna be. Once everyone is up to speed, I don't think it's healthy to drag it out longer than necessary.

[elvis_knits]

There's instances in his play that subtly hint at him being pro-town and it would take a scum of considerable finesse to plant them deliberately.

Can you elaborate on what these instances were?

[farside22]

feeling a bit better to go over a few things now.

What was the status of the Starbuck wagon when he flip-flopped?

Reck was the second to last to vote for SB

Has Reck done this with other players than Starbuck/SC?

Not so far but the whole farside is digging a hole looks to be following EK and our argument.

Was Reck on the DeathNote wagon? If so, when did he join?

He was on the wagon. He was the 4th person to vote for DN

How signifigant a factor was Reck on both of these wagons? (As in, would the wagon be able to go through if he decided to stay off?)

I think the DN lynch was going to happen no matter what day 1 with DN's attempt to AtE comment. I find the SB vote the worst from him next to messiah (who hammered) as I said he voted for SC
Reck was 4th on the SC wagon with this quote:

@SC: Why did you wait until the end of the wagon to hammer DN?

Vote: SerialClergyman

His ploy was that if he was town, then so was elvis... and if DeathNote was scum, so was Starbuck. IMO, it was a bus. He knew DeathNote would flip scum, therefore incriminating Starbuck and seemingly clearing both himself and elvis.

He unvotes but really why just because of imprint?

Yeah, the site is super-fucked right now. Also,

unvote

.

I want to figure out the imprinting thing first.

Vote: Starbuck

On second thought, lynching Starbuck is a better plan. Passively defending someone who flips scum is a no-no.

2nd to last vote on SB. IE I changed my mind after saying over and over that I thought SB town.


The next person who flipped without cause and the hammer vote:

You know they will not care when you flip town and still keep up with this same BS.

This isn't really correct. SC flipping town at this point would be signficant to me.

a busser wouldn't even push all day for the lynch, they might be wishy washy and come on at the end

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that exactly what SC did? He went from "I think starbuck is scum, and if she is DN is probably her scumbuddy" to hammering DN.

ek, what happens if Starbuck flips town?

He was talking mostly about voting for Sc here. His very next post is with the SB push:

I'm down for a Starbuck lynch. I believe I said that I would find her defense of DN scummy if he flipped scum, and I stand by that. I'm going to allow her the opportunity to post before hammering since she hasn't gotten a chance to respond to anything yet.

unvote, vote: Starbuck

Her "I don't see where I defended him" defense isn't very persuasive.

I just see this as week reasoning to vote for SB.

[Socrates]

@ Socrates; Have you finished your read through?

Not yet, but I am working on it. It been pretty slow going so far, what with other commitments and my decision to focus on current affairs.

Re: people's speculation on the Mod's answer to my question, it can't hurt to ask, now can it?

Farside, thank you for answering those questions. Do you think it is possible for Messiah and Reck to both be scum who switched wagons in quick succession? In my experience scum don't like to act so synchronized.

SC, I notice you have a town read on VMD and I feel you are the best person to discuss this with because I wont have to rehash my thinking to explain this.

I just saw this post by VMD:

Lim, I'm flattered by you voting to imprint me and all, but I question you voting to imprint yourself. I have had a town read on you, but I had a town read on elvis too, prior to her so eagerly voting to imprint herself. I am of the opinion that no one should vote to imprint themselves.

Not to make you second-guess yourself, but why do you think I am worthy of being imprinted? What makes you so sure I'm town?

So, my question is: Why hasn't VMD (or her replacement) been hung like the scum she is?

[Socrates]

Limrickx, I don't see a single thing in your case on Serial that is actually scummy.

Being confident is your reads is NOT an alignment tell. The fact that you are using it to both cast suspicion on SC and to explain a town read on Button is evidence of that. Don't think that by hanging a lampshade on it will let you get away with contradictory logic.

Hammering to cut off discussion is about the lamest point one can make when you consider the fact that the game is

functionally nightless

. You guys are talking, someone hammers, and then... you guys go on talking.

You still haven't answered why Serial being pro-imprints today is

scummy

and you didn't answer my question about what you would have expected a town SC to do differently.

I don't really have issue with anything else you wrote. One observation is that I don't find it surprising that you are the top imprint getter, since none of your reads are controversial or in conflict with the rest of the town's.

Anyway, yes these questions were because I wanted to get a better feel for the top imprint getter.

I still want a scum list from Pug.

[farside22]

Farside, thank you for answering those questions. Do you think it is possible for Messiah and Reck to both be scum who switched wagons in quick succession? In my experience scum don't like to act so synchronized.

I remember a game where I was scum with day talk ability. My scum buddy and I set it up so we could vote back to back. We got lucky no one linked it and it was down to needing one more mislynch for scum to win
In other words it's not unheard of for me.
It wasn't really quick. Messiah waiting for SB to come back and haver her say but I just find the switch rather quick with not much else said during the day.
Things like that bother me.