Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[farside22]

Ugh this is what I get for going back on notes based on something EK said.

I'm doing a catalogue of people's reactions to DN's plan... and the more I read I am starting to think that Messiah is not a DN buddy. He WAS one of the people who kept mentioning that DN was scummy even when others look like they were purposely avoiding.

Feeling better about Messiah.

Great stuff. Let me start this by saying that if all scum did was ignore their scum buddy the hunting scum would be really easy.
Lets do the list of what scum can do:
buss their buddy
ignore their buddy
defend their buddy

messiah:
Far too much of it seems to be that you think she is "obsessed with" and "defends" DN, but I don't see the huge scumtell there. The only way that her defense of DN could be scummy in my eyes is if DN was scum, but you say that you only think DN is scum in the first place because starbuck defended him.

So you're saying starbuck is scum because she mentions DN a lot but has a neutral read on him? I don't get the scumtell here at all.

follows someone else logic

I really don't like this post. It seems like he is trying to force the town to choose either empowering everyone or no one and ignores the third option of imprinting only a few people (which is what Elvis actually suggested).

I didn't realize it at the time, but this is a very good point. He presents a false dilemma, leaving out the option that is best for the town. This coupled with his push to proceed with a plan that would most likely be harmful to the town is a good reason to

vote: DeathNote

I looked at DN and his one of the reason's was the above.

unvote, vote: DeathNote for the reasons stated in these posts, and the "Just policy lynch me and get it over with Crying or Very sad" thing.

Red alert! Red Alert

I'm down for a Starbuck lynch. I believe I said that I would find her defense of DN scummy if he flipped scum, and I stand by that. I'm going to allow her the opportunity to post before hammering since she hasn't gotten a chance to respond to anything yet.

Really? Really? No not really I just have the quote her to prove in fact you called it not a scum tell at all.

unvote:
vote: Messiah

fos: EK

[Messiah]

Uh, no. I never said it wasn't a scum tell. I said it would only be scummy if DN was scum, which he was.

The only way that her defense of DN could be scummy in my eyes is if DN was scum

[TheButtonmen]

I'm fully aware that buttonmen tried that breaking strategy stuff, but the rest of his play is scummy to me. I don't like the way he voted SC the first part of yesterday, arguing SC's hammer was bad because it prevented imprints.

....I want you to show me a single quote where I argue against lynching SC, I'm going to go out on a limb and say I've been pushing for his lynch the hardest.

Also he didn't seem very present during the starbuck lynch or fighting it very hard, but now he's quick to call the lynch a railroad.

Wow, Even more misrepresentation this time it's easy to address though, the Starbuck wagon got going page 24, since then I've posted multiple times on each page. Quite a few of them were pointing out flaws in your "case" and defending Starbuck. So I'm going to have to call bullshit on that statment.

[TheButtonmen]

The other red flag for VMD is when she asked what happens if Starbuck flips town. It's one of those questions that looks like planning her position in advance and felt weird at the time.

Or it may have been because you were trying to plan out the towns actions like 3 steps in advance all working with the assumption that 'Buck was scum.

I think Limerickx's spot is the most suspicious. Second last on the Deathnote wagon and not voting on D2.

I see not voting D2 is a nulltell, you may have noticed it ended super fast due to several people railraoding a lynch through. Also if Limrick is suspicous for that why isn't Plum even more suspicous for adding no content and voting for 'Buck.

[farside22]

Uh, no. I never said it wasn't a scum tell. I said it would only be scummy if DN was scum, which he was.

The only way that her defense of DN could be scummy in my eyes is if DN was scum

Alright let me ask then since your here. Do you still think only scum defend or is it possible for them to buss and ignore? Do you think SC pushing more on star over DN for most of the day 1 is scummy in retrospect?

[Messiah]

Do you still think only scum defend or is it possible for them to buss and ignore?

When did I say scum could only defend? Of course it's possible for them to buss and ignore.

Do you think SC pushing more on star over DN for most of the day 1 is scummy in retrospect?

Yes, I think it is. Not only did he push SB more than DN on D1, he even said that his case on DN would disappear is SB was town. Which reminds me, can we lynch SC now?

vote: SC

[xRECKONERx]

Imprint: Reckoner, TheButtonmen

That's all for right now, though I'm

dying

to hear further thoughts on me. Gut instinct says to

Vote: SC

for now, though we MIGHT wanna consider NO LYNCHING today and just imprinting because it's 3:7.

[elvis_knits]

SC is still town.

Something occurred to me about deathnote. He was scum who pushed a plan giving all the scum power roles. IMO opinion that increases the chance scum knew they wouldn't have a NK unless they got an imprint. Because DN was pushing so depserately for imprints. Which increases the chance that SC and me are town, once again.

I am not in the mood to argue with farside or buttonmen at this point (I will answer specific questions later if I can stomach it), but the way farside is putting my quotes up against each other like they conflict is stupid and scummy. Of course my opinions are going to change according to how things happen in the game, and if I reread things that change my mind. farside is on full-tilt scum mode. I've seen her as scum before and she is a shameless scum player. Ask her why she voted starbuck yesterday if she thinks me and SC are such scum who pushed a mislynch onto starbuck.

[farside22]

messiah: One last question. Why did you hammer starbuck when no imprints had occurred?

[farside22]

SC is still town.

Something occurred to me about deathnote. He was scum who pushed a plan giving all the scum power roles. IMO opinion that increases the chance scum knew they wouldn't have a NK unless they got an imprint. Because DN was pushing so depserately for imprints. Which increases the chance that SC and me are town, once again.

I am not in the mood to argue with farside or buttonmen at this point (I will answer specific questions later if I can stomach it), but the way farside is putting my quotes up against each other like they conflict is stupid and scummy. Of course my opinions are going to change according to how things happen in the game, and if I reread things that change my mind. farside is on full-tilt scum mode. I've seen her as scum before and she is a shameless scum player. Ask her why she voted starbuck yesterday if she thinks me and SC are such scum who pushed a mislynch onto starbuck.

Way to not show quotes again. scum is scum sweetie of course what you say looks scummy because you are scum.

[elvis_knits]

Once again farside: hammering without imprints is not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing. Now that we have starbuck's flip it helps us decide who to imprint. Imprinting before a lynch is imprinting blindly. The correct way to do things is to lynch, look at the flip, imprint and then no lynch.

[elvis_knits]

SC is still town.

Something occurred to me about deathnote. He was scum who pushed a plan giving all the scum power roles. IMO opinion that increases the chance scum knew they wouldn't have a NK unless they got an imprint. Because DN was pushing so depserately for imprints. Which increases the chance that SC and me are town, once again.

I am not in the mood to argue with farside or buttonmen at this point (I will answer specific questions later if I can stomach it), but the way farside is putting my quotes up against each other like they conflict is stupid and scummy. Of course my opinions are going to change according to how things happen in the game, and if I reread things that change my mind. farside is on full-tilt scum mode. I've seen her as scum before and she is a shameless scum player. Ask her why she voted starbuck yesterday if she thinks me and SC are such scum who pushed a mislynch onto starbuck.

Way to not show quotes again. scum is scum sweetie of course what you say looks scummy because you are scum.

I'm not spending hours quoting you right now.

Why did you help lynch starbuck when you've been spending all your time fighting me and SC and calling us scum? We were pushing starbuck, you shoul dhave never agreed to lynch starbuck if you think we're scum.

[farside22]

Once again farside: hammering without imprints is not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing. Now that we have starbuck's flip it helps us decide who to imprint. Imprinting before a lynch is imprinting blindly. The correct way to do things is to lynch, look at the flip, imprint and then no lynch.

Lets see you want to imprint in the hopes someone will check you/or SC but didn't want an imprint for anyone to check starbuck?
Do I have that right
As for dn's push that is more assumptions. That's like saying you know what was in his head when he hatched the plan in the first place.

[farside22]

SC is still town.

Something occurred to me about deathnote. He was scum who pushed a plan giving all the scum power roles. IMO opinion that increases the chance scum knew they wouldn't have a NK unless they got an imprint. Because DN was pushing so depserately for imprints. Which increases the chance that SC and me are town, once again.

I am not in the mood to argue with farside or buttonmen at this point (I will answer specific questions later if I can stomach it), but the way farside is putting my quotes up against each other like they conflict is stupid and scummy. Of course my opinions are going to change according to how things happen in the game, and if I reread things that change my mind. farside is on full-tilt scum mode. I've seen her as scum before and she is a shameless scum player. Ask her why she voted starbuck yesterday if she thinks me and SC are such scum who pushed a mislynch onto starbuck.

Way to not show quotes again. scum is scum sweetie of course what you say looks scummy because you are scum.

I'm not spending hours quoting you right now.

Why did you help lynch starbuck when you've been spending all your time fighting me and SC and calling us scum? We were pushing starbuck, you shoul dhave never agreed to lynch starbuck if you think we're scum.

I looked back and saw her defending DN and a lot of it was very suspicious. It's a hard thing to ignore and a part of me had town vibes on SC with his williness to allow himself to be lynched to prove a point which gave me pause to look back.
Now can you stop acting like my one vote was all it took to lynch her. If my plan was just to lynch you or SC I could have stuck to that easily with his hammer on DN and all the votes.

[farside22]

unvote:
vote: EK

I'm getting a sense of being desperate with the inablity to prove a case.
mmmm scum lets get to lynching.

[elvis_knits]

farside wants quotes. So I got one for her.

I see no mention of Starbuck in any of farside's posts until she votes Starbuck in this one. She doesn't even explain anything, but quotes some stuff, bolds it and then votes starbuck. Sort of odd since she spent all her time saying me and SC are scum and then she votes for our top suspect.

Dontcha think?

@ SC

Could you quote three (3) posts where you feel Starbuck is defending DN?

I can do this and placed in bold those defense's from starbuck about DN

On DeathNote
I definitely don't like his pressure of trying to make everyone choose between either one of his plans.

I've played with DeathNote before and it very much seems like he was just trying to get ideas out there. I'm not getting a completely scummy feeling from him

.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 08#2007508

You know SC...I have DeathNote in my null category right now, but I love how you jump so quick because I mentioned his name in a semi-positive faction and yours and elvis's in not such a positive faction.

This quick overreaction just makes you look scummier.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 61#2007561

I don't feel I misrepped you at all. That's exactly how it felt when I read it. Also, if you read the rules of the game, you would have known that the rogue actives could retain their powers. It surprises me, even after your blatant posts about reading over the rules carefully, that you admit to not doing so.

There was plenty of ideas and theories being thrown around at the time of your vote on DeathNote. I agree that not everyone should be imprinted and he sees now why this is a bad idea, but why must it only be after YOU point out that its anti-town or scummy?

You are making this situation to be entirely about you, when it's not.

At that point, DeathNote made a suggestion. Later on, yes, he wanted to limit people to two options which I find scummy, but at that point he just merely gave an idea. You blew it completely out of proportion.

I did paraphrase you because I was taking notes in notepad as I caught up. You still only semi-conceded to the idea AFTER SC said it was be decent, but NOT until that point.



If you read the rest of my post, instead of picking apart what you wanted, you would see that I did state my opinion on his idea and that it really wouldn't be a good one.

I also have already stated that I have a null tell currently on DeathNote, due to meta reasons.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 95#2008095

unvote:
vote: starbuck

[Messiah]

messiah: One last question. Why did you hammer starbuck when no imprints had occurred?

Imprints had slipped my mind, again. Just as they did when I put DN at L-1 on D1 before Reck reminded me.

[elvis_knits]

Once again farside: hammering without imprints is not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing. Now that we have starbuck's flip it helps us decide who to imprint. Imprinting before a lynch is imprinting blindly. The correct way to do things is to lynch, look at the flip, imprint and then no lynch.

Lets see you want to imprint in the hopes someone will check you/or SC but didn't want an imprint for anyone to check starbuck?
Do I have that right
As for dn's push that is more assumptions. That's like saying you know what was in his head when he hatched the plan in the first place.

No, not right.

Why should we imprint before seeing a flip? What if that flip would change our thoughts on imprinting?

If we are sure enough to lynch somebody, then we should lynch then look at the flip and change our imprints accordingly and then no-lynch.

I was sure enough about starbuck to think lynching her was better than no-lynching and imprinting.

[TheButtonmen]

messiah: One last question. Why did you hammer starbuck when no imprints had occurred?

Imprints had slipped my mind, again. Just as they did when I put DN at L-1 on D1 before Reck reminded me.

In closing to my ever so truncated batch of posts:

If the hammer falls, no one is getting imprinted again. I'm well aware some of you think thats a feature, I personally would regard it as a bug. I don't want our first experiance with imprints to be when we are close to the wire numbers wise.

Agian your making me doubt you actually read the thread. I made a stand alone post reminding people of that fact.

That stand alone post got a response from Elvis about it and mentioned in other posts.

[farside22]

Once again farside: hammering without imprints is not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing. Now that we have starbuck's flip it helps us decide who to imprint. Imprinting before a lynch is imprinting blindly. The correct way to do things is to lynch, look at the flip, imprint and then no lynch.

Lets see you want to imprint in the hopes someone will check you/or SC but didn't want an imprint for anyone to check starbuck?
Do I have that right
As for dn's push that is more assumptions. That's like saying you know what was in his head when he hatched the plan in the first place.

No, not right.

Why should we imprint before seeing a flip? What if that flip would change our thoughts on imprinting?

If we are sure enough to lynch somebody, then we should lynch then look at the flip and change our imprints accordingly and then no-lynch.

I was sure enough about starbuck to think lynching her was better than no-lynching and imprinting.

Lets say in theory we get a cop imprint. Them checking the lynchee can prove town/scum. So I see no harm in imprinting before a flip and after a flip we can only imprint someone before a flip so why no lynch.
It should all depend on the lynch.

As for you're quote on SB I explained my position on that.

Finally:

I'm actually sort of surprised farside voted for Starbuck. She went from repeating "elvis and SC are scum, everything they say is crap sandwich (including how starbuck is scum)... and elvis is buddies with VMD" to "Look how vmd and starbuck are connected to deathnote! vote starbuck."

Please show where I called both of you scum. Show where I said everything you both said was crap and commented on your SB case (which you just proved I never said anything till that post). I'm pointing out budding I noticed how is that not scum hunting?

I also think farside is scum since she vote starbuck and then commiserated with her how horrible me and SC were and how we were the root of all evil. farside was on that lynch too.

I voted for starbuck based on the interactions I saw as well. Along with VMD because it all gave me pause. As for the commiserating I don't want to discuss those thoughts till the end of the game because even though a part is game related some is more about trying not to ruin the game. However I feel if I don't say this you will just bring it up again.
I think a lot of what your doing is scum motivated EK. A lot of the ignoring and misrep I don't see as personal but scum motivated
As for SC I see it has him playing maryter not listening or reasoning but I could be wrong on my read on him and it could be him using AtE.

[farside22]

hmm I just realized I'm assuming when and what with how the imprint works.

Mod:

When someone is imprinted do they receive notification about their ability during the day or at night?

[Pug89]

I'm really sorry about missing almost all of D2 but I'm just catching up now.

Honestly, a lot of the reason I want to see people imprinted is because I'm curious to see what kind of roles are available to us. Another is that if I thought this game was meant to be played as a purely vanilla game, the mod just would have made it that way. To play the whole game as a nightless vanilla would just be... underwhelming. And if we only imprint a couple people, I don't see much danger in it.

I agree with this.

Say you imprint someone. They are scum and get the ability to kill. They don't use it that night and claim they got doc power and it did nothing.

Now they have a NK. They can use it another night to frame someone, or just use it when we thought we had some lynches up our sleeves.

That is a fair point (and I believe I brought it up myself at one point) but if we keep the pool of players with imprints small it make finding the killer easier, and it is not like the town is just going to forget that scum get to keep imprints if someone is NKed it will be taken into account.

Then I think the people who ignored DN entirely or addressed the plan without talking about DN, are much more suspicious than people who asked DN direct questions.

Why is this exactly?

But what about the second attempt - Iam created a 'if noone dies in three days it's a draw' rule and I suggest being able to never imprint anyone and if things look like we're in lylo and going to lose we just vote to no kill 3 times and it's a draw, giving us either a win or a draw with no chance of loss. That's breaking it isn't it?

You didn't seriously propose that plan though. I feel you are trying to misrepresent yourself here to take advantage of the fact that several people find TheButtonmen pro-town for trying to break the game in towns favor.

If we lynch without imprinting and people wish we had imprinted, we can just no-lynch the next day and go right to night. There is nothing lost by lynching without imprinting, and everything to gain (as we will have another flip to look at).

That is actually a good point but it is easy to get sidetracked and end up lynching before the imprints are decided. It also ignores the fact that SC made a decision on his own that was clearly against what most of the town wanted.

Also really unhappy about the railroaded lynch on Starbuck yesterday, scum just took advantage of her VL/A to lynch a towny. This time could we at least get the day to last long enough for everyone to post before putting someone up a tree.

QFT. D2 only lasted a little over two days and it was less than that when the lynching vote was placed.

Something occurred to me about deathnote. He was scum who pushed a plan giving all the scum power roles. IMO opinion that increases the chance scum knew they wouldn't have a NK unless they got an imprint. Because DN was pushing so depserately for imprints. Which increases the chance that SC and me are town, once again.

I don't really see how since getting an imprint would be helpful to scum either way. How does that make it more likely you and SC are town?

[elvis_knits]

Buttonmen, I realize you wanted to lynch SC yesterday, I'm saying you weren't saying "don't lynch starbuck." You obviously saw it going down.

You reminded us Starbuck was L-1, and said you don't care what we do with that info,

but you just want people to know if they're hammering. That is not exactly a vote of confidence for Starbuck. I find it really odd for you to say you don't care what we do with that info -- as if you don't care if she get's lynched or not. Then for you to say starbuck was railroaded. It seems like you saw the lynch happening, didn't want to stop it, but wanted whoever hammered to know they were going to be in trouble. (And look who is getting heat now, Messiah, the hammerer).

If this is not what you meant by "I don't really care what you do with said info," then let me know.

Also I feel the need to point out in big bold letters that

Starbuck is at L-1

.

I don't really care what you do with said information but I want to make it obvious so no one hammers and then acts confused.

[TheButtonmen]

Also he didn't seem very present during the starbuck lynch or fighting it very hard, but now he's quick to call the lynch a railroad.

Wow, Even more misrepresentation this time it's easy to address though, the Starbuck wagon got going page 24, since then I've posted multiple times on each page. Quite a few of them were pointing out flaws in your "case" and defending Starbuck. So I'm going to have to call bullshit on that statment.

You already tried to push this I called it a railroad and didn't try to oppose it angle.

It would be great if you stop ignoring posts that don't support what your pushing.

[elvis_knits]

That post does not address what I am asking you.

You warned us starbuck was at L-1 and said you don't care what we do with that info. Why didn't you care?