Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[Vala Mal Doran]

The reason is not because I think you are scum, but because I don't think you are town.

Buh? o_O

[TheButtonmen]

Wait, do you think everyone other than ek is town?

No. I think that everyone else is more town at the moment.

Uh? We have had 2 people just post V/La or will read later and I not post at all.....

[iamausername]

-=Vote Count #4=-

Nevada (3) - Virginia, Colorado, Georgia
Montana (1) - Alaska
Virginia (1) - Ohio

Not Voting (7) - Arizona, Florida, Hawaii, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, Nevada

7 to lynch.

-=Imprint Count #4=-

Alaska (3) - Alaska, Nevada, Virginia
Virginia (2) - Alaska, Virginia
Florida (2) - Nevada, Florida
Ohio (2) - Nevada, Florida
Arizona (1) - Nevada
Colorado (1) - Nevada
Georgia (1) - Nevada
Hawaii (1) - Nevada
Iowa (1) - Nevada
Kansas (1) - Nevada
Montana (1) - Nevada
Nevada (1) - Nevada

7 to imprint.

Note: Just realised that I forgot to include DeathNote himself in his imprint everyone, correcting that through all imprint counts.

[Limerickx]

Lim, I'm flattered by you voting to imprint me and all, but I question you voting to imprint yourself. I have had a town read on you, but I had a town read on elvis too, prior to her so eagerly voting to imprint herself. I am of the opinion that no one should vote to imprint themselves.

Not to make you second-guess yourself, but why do you think I am worthy of being imprinted? What makes you so sure I'm town?

Generally, I get the most 'non-scum' vibe from you. You're asking questions which I feel open up discussions which have a good chance of tripping up players later. Truthfully, I just get a 'vanilla' vibe off of you, and I'd rather have people I feel are less likely to be scum have as many votes to imprint as possible.

That being said, along with the vote on me, as I am still in favor of moving slower, at least at first until we get a little more information regarding the possible powers the imprints give, I will remove/move my votes to ensure its easy to keep track moving forward of who had imprints.

I don't think voting to imprint yourself is, in and of itself, scummy. It takes 7 people to vote to imprint, and truthfully, I trust myself being imprinted more than other people, since I know my role. Obviously people can't trust what I say based on me saying it, but since I personally know my role, I have a vested interest in being imprinted. Being imprinted is beneficial to every player, scum or vanilla, because if you are imprinted, it helps your role, and doesn't help your opposing role. I'd say its a null tell more than anything else, but I'm willing to listen to why I'm wrong. Maybe I'm missing something.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Like I said before, you're not necessarily wrong; I tend to play cautious and paranoid early on to the point where it almost becomes a flaw and sometimes need a voice of reason or two to keep me in check. >_<

However, I still think eagerness to imprint oneself

can

be a scumtell if done in a certain way (see my case on elvis) where weak reasoning is given, etc.

I think if people are going to insist on voting for themselves, then

everyone

should vote for themselves so that at least we're on equal footing. I'd still prefer not to give scum that advantage, but people knowing their own alignment better than anyone else's is a strong counter-point to that, I must admit.

@elvis: What do you think of the manner in which my vote was placed on you? Do you think I am town or scum? Why?

@DN: Can you elaborate on your thought process on unvoting people you no longer think are towny enough? Also, is English not your first language? I've noticed you have a tendency to word your posts awkwardly.

[Vala Mal Doran]

I'd also like to hear more from Plum and Messiah, who I got townvibes from before. Apologies for not having the clarity of mind to put this in my first post. >_>;

Where is this Jason person? Has he said anything yet?

[iamausername]

-=jasonT1981 has been prodded=-

[elvis_knits]

@elvis: What do you think of the manner in which my vote was placed on you? Do you think I am town or scum? Why?

I'm not totally sure of your allignment at the moment.

My gut read of you is this:
I think you're town, but you're playing sort of paranoid, and not necessarily voting for who you think is scum, or not thinking through totally. Like your vote on Buttonmen, which was essentially because you found him annoying and you disliked his plan. While I happen to agree with you, those things don't indicate his allignment, and if you think about it, he probably was trying to break the game for the town. Which suggests he is town. So your vote there was not good.

Now let's look at your vote on me. You had said before that you found me really town, but immediately wondered if that meant I'm a really great scum player tricking you. This kind of thinking can lead to all sorts of bad things -- like lynching players who look town and keeping players who look like scum. It's the "too townie" fallacy. If a player looks town, they probably are. That doesn't mean you shouldn't question anything you disagree with, and change your read accordingly. But you should not automatically distrust a person who looks like town. Otherwise you're making it much harder to find scum. My philosophy is that if someone is scum, they will look like it at some point. And if they're that good that they never look like scum, then they deserve to beat me. I'm not going to start lynching players that look like town just because they might be playing a really great scum game. That will lead to lynching helpful townies and letting obvscum win. I would much rather lose to genius scum than obvscum, if I have to lose!

FWIW, I suck at being scum. I hate playing scum, and I think there is a noticable difference in how I play. I try to play like I do when I'm town and I just can't do it. Here's a link to a game that I played to endgame and won as town, the one I played with SC http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12069

Here's a link to a game that I played to endgame and won as scum. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12330

Those are links to recent games I have played all the way through. You can judge for yourself if you think I play differently as scum and town. You can judge if you think I am some great scum player. Somebody in the game where I was scum told me they think I'm a great scum player. I laughed. I REALLY don't think so, but you can judge for yourself.

But back to your vote on me. I can understand if you disagree with me about my interpretation of the "town slips" that me and SC made. But I'm not sure that it should reverse your read of me entirely. If you think I'm town and I come out with proof that I am town, why should that make you think I am scum?

Overall, my current read of you is that you're paranoid town. But I like that you are aggressive and not afraid to use your vote. You seem like the kind of exciting player that I love to play with, and once you get a bit more confidence in yourself you will not be as paranoid. I find that giving out a little trust is very beneficial. If you have good reason to believe another player is town and give them a little trust you can do a lot of good things. BUT, also, if you're wrong and the player is actually scum, giving them a little room to maneuver often makes them comfortable enough to make some scummy moves. Gives them enough rope to hang themselves. So I don't think it's such an awful risk to trust players that you have good reason to think are town. You have to have faith in yourself to be able to reverse your read if things change.

I'm sorry if that was sort of long and boring...

But I think that a lot of you here don't know me and I find that if I ramble on about my thought process it gives people more insight into how I operate.

I think we need to reach an understanding in this game of how we are going to approach things. We need to agree if we want to lynch and if we want to imprint and such things. Obviously I think we should go with my plan of lynching, while imprinting a few people we think are town, but if that's not the consensus I am fine with that. I just think it's important that we organize and DO SOMETHING! Right now we are all over the place, and most people are not voting for anything.

Everyone needs to say how they feel about lynching and imprinting so we can decide what to do. People also need to say who they think is scummy. It's page 8, we need to organize.

[Starbuck]

My thoughts from Page 1 to Page 5...

On Elvis & SC

SC seems to get a bit overaggressive over DeathNote's suggested idea to imprint everyone in Post 13, as did Elvis when she voted DeathNote in Post 14. He was just throwing out an idea, and you both overreacted quite a bit. Then Elvis turns around just a few posts later in Post 17 that she likes fast, exciting games and that it really isn't that bad of an idea, but only after SC alluded that it could be okay. This feels like a contradiction to me of her vote of DeathNote.


I'm getting the feeling of elvis and SC buddying a bit. My reasons here are that for one SC voted to imprint both himself and elvis and in Post 119, elvis does the same thing. It just seems like they are trying to work together, as they did when they both shot down DeathNote's idea. Post 119 does nothing but add to my theory.


The following quotes are nothing but WIFOM and make me very uncomfortable imprinting Elvis (or SC, for that matter).

However, I think the odds are hugely in our favor on this. Neither of us knew that mafia can't NK. Therefore neither of us are mafia. Therefore we should be imprinted, and the town can be reasonably sure we are town. This is a huge advantage to us.

I think if I had actually gotten the scum PM I would have read it a little more carefully.

Well, I sort of assumed scum would get a NK to begin with.

Do you think it's possible scum would assume it also even if their PM did not mention it? And that nobody would figure out the truth?

I notice their PM also says they have a QT where they can talk at any time. Do people think it's possible that none of the scum team figured out that they don't have a NK? Or that Iamausername didn't correct them in the QT when they made some mention of NKing?

I also am not a fan of someone who just comes out Day 1 saying that "so&so and so&so are scum" just because you don't like their ideas. Elvis does this in Post 47.

The last thing I'm not a fan of is how overly insulting and condescending elvis has been to quite a few of players. It seems right now that if we don't go with elvis's way, it's the highway. Remember that this is a mafia game and it does get heated, but it doesn't give you a reason to sit and fling ad hom at everyone that you disagree with.

On DeathNote

I definitely don't like his pressure of trying to make everyone choose between either one of his plans.

I've played with DeathNote before and it very much seems like he was just trying to get ideas out there. I'm not getting a completely scummy feeling from him.

On TheButtonmen

TheButtonmen does make a very good point in Post 49 and in his original post which was quoted by Elvis as being scummy. While yes, the village has the numbers, the 4 rogue actives know who each other are and know who isn't scum. He also is correct that we can't play this game as normal.

We need to play this game like normal and decide who we think is scum, lynch them, and in the process, decide who we think is town, and vote for the imprint based on that.

We can't play this game like normal if we want to win IMO, 8-4 is unwinnable by town in regular mafia, thus playing this like a regular game of mafia seems a terrible call.

This. We need to take everything into account. While I disagree with his plan, he's on the track here.

On VMD

I think VMD's vote on TheButtonmen is a little opportunistic because he wasn't the only one discussing that theory/idea. I don't think he is being against the spirit of the game. Again, here is someone who just happened to bring up an idea that someone else didn't like. It's like the same thing as elvis voting DeathNote because she didn't like his idea.

She unvotes in Post 88 citing that she felt that he was going to cheat in some way. I really think that's a little over the top to assume such a thing. I, for one, am just like you, VMD, where I like to preserve the integrity of the game. I can see where you were coming from with this, but as I said, it just feels a little over the top.

On the theories/ideas

I can see where DeathNote was coming from, especially prior to mod clarifications, but there is just too much that we don't know. Also, with all 4 of the rogues receiving an imprint, it's like we'd be setting ourselves up for failure.

I am also not sure on Limerick's idea, just because it leaves too much open.

While the diceroll idea would be fair and random, it just leaves too much to chance and takes away any discussion we would be able to get.

The scum wouldn't use the NK even if they got it, they'd just be lynched the next day as a result.

The imprints are a subject all of their own. Will we know what imprint the person receives?

Limerick is seeming to allude in Post 43 that we will know. I'm not really comfortable with him making such an assumption. I'm not sure that the mod would give that much away.


I do agree that TheButtonmen's idea is boring and we are here to play mafia. Not vote NL over and over again. I am glad that our mod stepped in and said so as well.

[SerialClergyman]

<--- is calling right now Starbuck scum with Deathnote. Write that down, keep it safe, check it on reveal.

At that time, he seemed to be suggesting that we give everyone a power on D1 and then possibly not give everyone a power on subsequent days. I didn't realise (noone did AFAIK) that scum benefited from multiple imprints. Hence the idea to imprint everyone D1 and then possibly less than everyone D2 looked like a way of making sure every scum got a power and the town lost theirs afterwards.

But more importantly, that is a manufactured case that focuses overly on Deathnote, who then gets the 'scummy but not that scummy' summary directly afterwards. First strong read of the day leads to the following likely alignments -

town:
elvis
serial
limerick
button

scum:
starbuck
deathnote

Neutral:
All else.

[SerialClergyman]

unvote, vote starbuck

[Starbuck]

Page 5 to Page 8....

On Elvis

I don't think it is a safe assumption at all that scum figured out they didn't have a night kill, at least not safe enough to auto-confirm people town. And the way elvis words her "revelation" post strikes me as a very, "I've been planning this all along!" sort of thing.

QFT.

But I think this is possibly a REAL way to give the town an advatage here. I think that scum probably knew they had a NK. So giving me and SC imprints is the least risk to the town. I also don't care if I have to be lynched before endgame if my suggestion is SO controversial. I am banking on people seeing the truth in my hypothesis.

Why is it least risky right now to give an imprint to you and/or SC rather than someone else?

I think I underestimated though how weird it probably looks for me and SC to be voting to imprint each other though. At the time I voted to imprint us, I really didn't care that it looked odd since I thought my conclusion that we were both town was pretty obvious. But I do understand why it might make people a little paranoid.

If the conclusion came from someone else, other than one of the two of you, then it might look okay. Right now, it really looks like a scum gambit and I'm not at all comfortable with imprinting either of you.

It's like you are trying to force everyone else to view you as confirmed town when you aren't at all confirmed.



I do not like how you answer the question that TheButtonmen asked of SC in Post 125. My reasoning is because you just easily led SC to agree with whatever you said (which lo and behold he did in Post 146). I find this to be very scummy.

[Starbuck]

You know SC...I have DeathNote in my null category right now, but I love how you jump so quick because I mentioned his name in a semi-positive faction and yours and elvis's in not such a positive faction.

This quick overreaction just makes you look scummier.

[SerialClergyman]

It's not that he's in a positive light - it's that he's in a negative-but-not-that-negative light. It's textbook.

And it's not an overreaction, it's just a read. I think you're scum. *waves*.

When you posted your first summary up there, had you only read pages 1-5? Or had you skimmed the whole thing and were doing an in-depth reread?

[Starbuck]

I did an in-depth read. I sat here for about 4 hours this morning taking my time to catch up because everyone has seemed to just write walls of text for this game.

I haven't even done a re-read yet. I hadn't read anything thus far because I am currently semi-V/LA. My great grandmother passed away and I am home in Connecticut (from where I am currently stationed with the Navy in Sicily) visiting my family & friends. We had the memorial service last Saturday.

I posted just so you guys knew that I was around and that I wasn't purposely avoiding the game for any reason. I was supposed to go on a trip to NJ today but my good friend came down with a 101.3 fever, so that got canceled and I figured it would be a good time to fully catch up on the game.

[Limerickx]

I am also not sure on Limerick's idea, just because it leaves too much open.

While the diceroll idea would be fair and random, it just leaves too much to chance and takes away any discussion we would be able to get.

The scum wouldn't use the NK even if they got it, they'd just be lynched the next day as a result.

The imprints are a subject all of their own. Will we know what imprint the person receives?

Limerick is seeming to allude in Post 43 that we will know. I'm not really comfortable with him making such an assumption. I'm not sure that the mod would give that much away.

Just to clarify, I later agreed that the benefit for voting on who to get the imprints had a lot of positives. The things that are important to me, at least for day one, is that I don't see a reason to lynch, when the scum don't have a NK unless we give them one, so we don't have to lynch the first day. The other important thing to me is that we give out all imprints judiciously and in small amounts, so we can keep track of everyone who had them later on if people start getting NK'd

I also never said that we/I know what the imprints will be, and I'm not sure where in post 43 I imply that we do. In fact, I specifically say

That assumes you know what the possible powers are. I don't recall it being mentioned anywhere what the possible imprints are.

This seems to directly oppose your claim that I said that we'd know. What I DO know, is that anyone who is imprinted can tell everyone else what they were imprinted with. Thats how we can figure out a little more about what getting imprinted entails. Information from other players, not the mod.

We can assume (I dont think this is a reach) is that it is possible to get an imprint that lets you kill someone. Otherwise, it would be impossible for mafia to NK someone. Other than that, I have no idea, but we can find out by any imprinted person telling everyone else after the night phase what they got. So to clarify, we'll have some idea of the imprints we can get, and what they do, because whoever is imprinted can tell everyone else the day after.

[Starbuck]

Thank you for explaining more, Limerick. I do view you as pro-town. It's just the feeling I got when I was reading.

[Messiah]

I'd also like to hear more from Plum and Messiah

Yeah, sorry about posting infrequently; I don't have access to a computer at the moment.

<--- is calling right now Starbuck scum with Deathnote. Write that down, keep it safe, check it on reveal.

Uh, really? You're calling half of the scum team at the beginning of d1 based on starbuck finding DN only slightly suspicious? That certainly is an overreaction, and a scummy one at that.

Also, wouldn't your vote better serve your theory if placed on DN?

[Starbuck]

<--- is calling right now Starbuck scum with Deathnote. Write that down, keep it safe, check it on reveal.

Uh, really? You're calling half of the scum team at the beginning of d1 based on starbuck finding DN only slightly suspicious? That certainly is an overreaction, and a scummy one at that.

Also, wouldn't your vote better serve your theory if placed on DN?

Elvis did this same exact thing in Post 47. She says TheButtonmen and DeathNote are scum.

[Messiah]

I interpreted that post as a less serious "These guys are both scummy" kind of thing, but I may be wrong.

[lewarcher82]

Ok, I finally read the whole thread.

Pages 1-5: Nothing! Setup-related paranoia. My comment is: if we wanna play, let us trust the Mod. Imprinting rules surely make this game enough balanced.

on Buttonman: he is a smart player, as far as I see. I get town vibes from him. Still, I agree that looking for Nash equilibria or bugs in the setup is pointless, since there is a whole set of rules we do not now.

Pages 6-8: interesting stuff happens. I find Starbuck's comments interesting, she seems to be truly scum-hunting. And I find SC's posts a little excessive in front of the not so heavy accusations he has to face.

My personal opinion is that, given the huge amount of unknown factors, we need to scum-hunt, find someone scummy to lynch, find someone "towny" to imprint.

Therefore:

Vote: SerialClergyman

;

Imprint: Starbuck

;

Imprint: Buttonman

;

Imprint: Lewarcher82

(it is just hypocritical not to imprint myself).

[elvis_knits]

On Elvis & SC
SC seems to get a bit overaggressive over DeathNote's suggested idea to imprint everyone in Post 13, as did Elvis when she voted DeathNote in Post 14. He was just throwing out an idea, and you both overreacted quite a bit. Then Elvis turns around just a few posts later in Post 17 that she likes fast, exciting games and that it really isn't that bad of an idea, but only after SC alluded that it could be okay. This feels like a contradiction to me of her vote of DeathNote.

Starbuck, do not misrep me. I did not vote deathnote for suggesting we imprint everyone. I voted deathnote for suggesting we imprint everyone after I expressed concern that scum might be able to retain more than one power.

vote: Deatnote

Way to ignore my concern about scum maybe being able to retain more than one power.

He completely ignored my point, which would make giving everyone a power very dangerous and much more beneficial to scum. So it's not just that he suggested something anti-town, but he suggested something anti-town AFTER I specifically pointed out that it could be anti-town.

Also, you are misrepping me about how I said I like fast-paced games. Here is the whole of my statement, and my conditional agreement to the "give everyone powers" plan had to be that scum wouldn't retain more than one power.

So if we go with this plan we have to do it on all subsequent days. And only if we are assured scum cannot retain more than one ability.

I agree that it will probably be a clusterfuck of information. I'm not opposed to that necessarily. I like a fast, exciting game, and giving everyone powers will definitely do that. So, it might be good.

But if we want to go a more concervative route I would just give imprints to people we think are town. We can still give a lot out... I would not be opposed to that. I'm not sure I want to give a power role to a player I think is scum, unless there is some reason to think we can test them. And not knowing what our imprint will be or what their will be, this might be difficult.

Starbuck

-- you spent a good deal of time saying how horrible me and SC are for shooting down deathnote's idea. Does this mean you agree with deathnote's idea? Do you think we should give everyone powers when the townies will lose theirs after one use and the scum will retain their powers for the rest of the game? Do you think that deathnote is town and that we are treating him unfairly?

[elvis_knits]

I also am not a fan of someone who just comes out Day 1 saying that "so&so and so&so are scum" just because you don't like their ideas. Elvis does this in Post 47.

This is another misrep. I did not vote deathnote for not liking his idea. I voted him because he suggested an anti-town strategy AFTER I pointed out how such a strategy was anti-town and he ignored my concern.

As for buttonmen, I never voted him because I didn't like his idea. I called him scum because I felt he was lying. Please look at my reasons:

Basically theres a whole lot a scum and not that many town, thus voting is tilted in scum favour, so by randomizing we remove that. Now if we randomly chose a player day 1 and repeatedly imprint them and vote NL until they find scum we have a 66% of winning right now and honestly with a 2-1 town to scum ratio that's a hell of a lot better win % then playing the game straight up.

This is wrong. And scummy.

There are 4 scum and 8 town. You're making it sound like town is in the minority. We are twice as strong at the scum right now.

I was concerned that buttonmen was misrepping the town's power in order to push the town into a plan. I was afraid he was panicking everyone and making it seem like we couldn't win unless we went with his plan. I considered his statement of their being "a whole lot of scum and not many town" to be a lie, and that's why I called him scum.

As things went on I became convinced he was trying to break the game in the town's favor, and have since withdrawn my accusation. I have said several times that I believe he is town.

[elvis_knits]

The last thing I'm not a fan of is how overly insulting and condescending elvis has been to quite a few of players. It seems right now that if we don't go with elvis's way, it's the highway. Remember that this is a mafia game and it does get heated, but it doesn't give you a reason to sit and fling ad hom at everyone that you disagree with.

The only thing I can think of that was insulting was the monkey comment I made about Buttonmen's plan, AND I apologized for it. I never even said buttonmen was a monkey, I said that his plan required that we play like monkeys, something that I do not want to do.

As far as things being my way or the highway, that is definitely not true in the least. I cannot force anyone to do anything. Earlier today I said:

I think we need to reach an understanding in this game of how we are going to approach things. We need to agree if we want to lynch and if we want to imprint and such things. Obviously I think we should go with my plan of lynching, while imprinting a few people we think are town, but if that's not the consensus I am fine with that. I just think it's important that we organize and DO SOMETHING! Right now we are all over the place, and most people are not voting for anything.

Everyone needs to say how they feel about lynching and imprinting so we can decide what to do. People also need to say who they think is scummy. It's page 8, we need to organize.

I'm not going to stop trying to convince people to help me do what I think is best. And perhaps I am slightly obnoxious at times. But it's not my way or the highway. I think we have to agree on something, even if it's not what I want. And that's what I encouraged us all to do earlier today.

[Starbuck]

I don't feel I misrepped you at all. That's exactly how it felt when I read it. Also, if you read the rules of the game, you would have known that the rogue actives could retain their powers. It surprises me, even after your blatant posts about reading over the rules carefully, that you admit to not doing so.




There was plenty of ideas and theories being thrown around at the time of your vote on DeathNote. I agree that not everyone should be imprinted and he sees now why this is a bad idea, but why must it only be after YOU point out that its anti-town or scummy? You are making this situation to be entirely about you, when it's not.

At that point, DeathNote made a suggestion. Later on, yes, he wanted to limit people to two options which I find scummy, but at that point he just merely gave an idea. You blew it completely out of proportion.



I did paraphrase you because I was taking notes in notepad as I caught up. You still only semi-conceded to the idea AFTER SC said it was be decent, but NOT until that point.



If you read the rest of my post, instead of picking apart what you wanted, you would see that I did state my opinion on his idea and that it really wouldn't be a good one.

I also have already stated that I have a null tell currently on DeathNote, due to meta reasons.