Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[SerialClergyman]

Sup farside.

What you thinking about things?

[elvis_knits]

Also, do you think I'm onto something with reck/ctd or am I tilting at windmills?

I think that messiah made some scummy moves, but I think CTD is coming from a pro-town place in his posts. I disagree with his conclusion that you're scum, but I think he's entirely consistent with what I know of him. I think he was a late replacement into Invitational10 which I played in. So I'm a little divided on CTD, but I am leaning probably neutral,

Reckoner, I have some issues with, I think I posted on his yesterday. I think he's a better one to look into and discuss. I have him linked to VMD a bit for how he said VMD's vote on buttonmen was a towntell.

---

What I am trying to look at now is the time of the d1 hammer/d2 stuff. I think the rush to vote you was particularly odd, seeing as we lynched scum. I also really don't like how buttonmen is sitting there saying

My biggest suspect =/= DeathNote

Then after you hammer, buttonmen goes:

And SC if DN is scum don't even try to pull the bullshit logic "oh look he's scum so that means I'm / Elvis is town"

So here we have buttonmen still saying DN is not his top suspect. Being really wishy-washy about DN, not encouraging DN's lynch at all. Yet after DN is hammerer, and BEFORE the flip is revealed, buttonmen is quick to make sure that if DN flips scum we not give SC in credit.

It seems like buttonmen EXPECTS DN to flip scum at this point, which is odd, since buttonmen didn't vote DN and said last page that DN was not his top suspect. Yet, after DN is dead, but before the reveal, buttonmen is already doing damage control and telling everyone not to consider SC town if DN flips scum.

So then D2 starts. I think this is like the juiciest part of the game, so I'm gonna put up a timeline of the most important parts.

478: Pug agrees with VMD that scum would have been bussing DN from the get-go; also doesn't like SC hammering in mid-discussion

(potential link pug to vmd)

479: buttonmen "SuperMegaDuperUltraConfirmVote: SerialClergyman" and wants to finish imprint discussion

(obsession with imprinting before flips, and since he's been the front-runner for imprints this is pretty much him begging for imprint)

480: Messiah votes SC with no other explanation or discussion
481: SC explains he was afraid of scum getting imprinted so that's why he hammered DN; says starbuck is scummier now than ever before
482: farside imprints pug and buttonmen, and foses SC
483: VMD votes SC, says his DN hammer was an obv bus, imprints a whopping 5 people, vmd, buttonmen, messiah, limerick,

(later adds pug) (this imprint of so many people strikes me as effective way to imprint buddies by hiding them with townes, and encourage imprinting in general)

487:SC asks plum, pug, elvis to vote him, better he dies and we see he's town and was serious about everything. It will stop scum from getting some quick imprints

(love to see an explanation from somebody why SC would play like this as scum)

490: farside posts a lovely tomato pic and votes EK
491: SC asks farside to put her vote on him instead
492: buttonmen asks farside to move her vote to SC
497: farside votes vmd
498: SC asks farside to vote him again
503: pug imprints buttonman, pug, plum
508:buttonman imprints only himself

(so concerned we get imprints done, but only willing to help himself get one)

509: limerick imprints himself and buttonmen, says not happy with the lynch without imprinting

(not happy with the lynch even though it was scum?)

511:reck imprints himself, messiah, hates on SC
512: SC asks reck to vote him
517: Plum imprints herself, elvis ...votes starbuck
538:Reck asks farside "what if it's a town vig?"

(seems like such a setup for giving mafia an excuse to use their kill and claim town vig)

541: reck votes SC, calls his DN vote a buss

(exactly what VMD said when she votes SC also)

My current thinking based on the above are: reck/vmd/buttonmen=scummiest

My attempt at a TLDR:

Buttonmen -
1)pre-emptive damage control on the DN lynch, like he expected DN to flip scum, does not make sense for someone who wasn't voting DN and specifically stated DN was not his biggest suspect.
2)obsession with imprinting before we get info from flips -AND- only imprinting himself

Reckoner -
1)Wanting imprints before lynches
2)Going with the popular wagons
3)Asking about situation of town getting a vig imprint - setting up a mafia able to make a kill and then claim town vig
4)Saying SC's DNvote was on OBVbus, (which is what VMD said too), as well as other links to VMD (who I also think is scummy)
5)Said farside was "digging herself a hole" which sounds to me like he thinks she is town making herself look bad

VMD -
1)Imprinting 5 people - good way to hide imprint votes for buddies and encourage too much imprinting
2)Said SC's DNvote was an OBVbus without really explaining defending that
3)Talk of DN's behavior in the scumQT


I really would like thoughts on my points above, from everyone, but I am especially interested in bouncing this off SC.

[farside22]

Sup farside.

What you thinking about things?

I'm thinking I really like reck as scum.....willing to no lynch to see what info we get but so far only 1 imprint and now I'm just feeling uncertain about pug as he gets quieter and quieter.
It's that question I asked the mod about the possiblity of mafia being able to perform 2 kills in one night that makes me question everyone about their thoughts at this point.

[farside22]

538:Reck asks farside "what if it's a town vig?" (seems like such a setup for giving mafia an excuse to use their kill and claim town vig)

Also I pointed this out when reck brought it up. Gave me scum vibe too. Basically excusing a player from shooting someone.
If buttonman carried through with his threat and "vigged" Sc I would vote to have him lynched, unless SC was scum then I would think about it, but I don't care for the I would investigate player X but would shoot play Y.
Things like that just bother me.

[xRECKONERx]

If we lynch wrong isn't that game over?

[TheButtonmen]

Shooting is investigating.

[TheButtonmen]

So here we have buttonmen still saying DN is not his top suspect. Being really wishy-washy about DN, not encouraging DN's lynch at all. Yet after DN is hammerer, and BEFORE the flip is revealed, buttonmen is quick to make sure that if DN flips scum we not give SC in credit.

Why would SC get credit for that hammer? Do you consider hammering scum a towntell?

[elvis_knits]

Buttonman, hammering scum can be a bus, under certain circumstances. Considering that SC thought DN was scum for some time makes it less likely to be a buss, IMO.

Also, hammering scum, under any circumstances, is more pro-town than trying to convince the town NOT to lynch scum. Further arguing that if we lynch scum, we should atleast get some imprints in ahead of the flip. Which is the most pro-scum plan possible.

That's what you advocated. The most pro-scum plan possible.

I'm opposed to a DN lynch at the moment. Partially because right now it would mean

0

imprints getting handed out today/tonight.

So anyone hammering DN before we can figure out what the plan is in regard to imprints I will assume your scum.

[TheButtonmen]

When did I say I didn't want DN lynched? I did want to finish the discussion regrading imprints so that it didn't interfer with the proceeding days. The quote clearly shows that so I'm curious as to what your tyring to say with it?

[elvis_knits]

When did I say I didn't want DN lynched? I did want to finish the discussion regrading imprints so that it didn't interfer with the proceeding days. The quote clearly shows that so I'm curious as to what your tyring to say with it?

Well, I'm just going off the way you were postponing his lynch and how you never voted DN. If you wanted him lynched you should have voted him.

You have a fair amount of interaction with DN day1, but it's all pretty nice to him and trying to draw him out and explain himself, but you never talk about him as scum until you say that SC is bussing DN. Isn't that a little backwards? If you think SC is scum bussing DN scum, you should be all for that, and all in favor of lynching DN, but you wanted SC dead first. DN only became scum to you when you could connect him to SC by shouting buss.

This is the first time you say DN might be scum:

There's so many things wrong with that plan, infact with DN"s sudden push for his own policy lynch then you presenting this "plan" it seems to me your planning a bussing that gives your a free mislynch, gives mafia 2 power roles.

Before that you never said you thought DN was scum. You only said it if you could make SC seem like scum too.

[elvis_knits]

I'd like to know if anyone thinks this is as bad as I do:

Shooting is investigating.

[TheButtonmen]

You use a night action to determine their alignment at the start of the next day. How is that not investigating?

[elvis_knits]

WTF

You find out their allignment by killing them. So, yeah, you find out they're allignment, but they're dead no matter what their allignment is. Sort of final, no? You have no recourse if they're town.

A vig is not considered an investigative role.

VIG =/= COP

A cop, or other investigative role, is able to bring info to the town that he alone has access to, and is helpful to the town in deciding lynches. If the person is dead, the town has nothing to decide, no input in the process.

[farside22]

I'd like to know if anyone thinks this is as bad as I do:

Shooting is investigating.

I do. I've said it 5 times now at least. I do not believe if you get a vig ability you should use it.

[elvis_knits]

I agree with you farside. Let's see what Buttonmen thinks.

Buttonmen:

If someone kills at night they should be autolynched, unless the kill is on scum.

Agree/disagree?

[TheButtonmen]

Disagree at this time. How do you prove who killed and why would you want to lynch a player that the majority of players thinks is town for policy reasons? Think they are scum and make a case / reexamine interactions, yes. Policy lynch, no.

[elvis_knits]

No, if somebody dies and that person is not scum, we find out who is responsible for it and we lynch them.

The reason we have to have this policy is that

if we dont we are giving scum a free pass to kill and claim that it was a vig kill.

We cannot allow that.

If scum are going to NK, they are going to have to lie about it, because that increases our chances of spotting a lie.

[xRECKONERx]

I agree with you farside. Let's see what Buttonmen thinks.

Buttonmen:

If someone kills at night they should be autolynched, unless the kill is on scum.

Agree/disagree?

Totally agree.

[TheButtonmen]

You have a fair amount of interaction with DN day1, but it's all pretty nice to him and trying to draw him out and explain himself

Yes I drew him out and made him explain himself, that’s scummy how? I question the pretty nice to him part though considering I badgered him, censoreswore at him. Insulted his plan and implied he was playing badly.

you never talk about him as scum until you say that SC is bussing DN. Isn't that a little backwards? If you think SC is scum bussing DN scum, you should be all for that, and all in favor of lynching DN, but you wanted SC dead first. DN only became scum to you when you could connect him to SC by shouting buss.

Shocking, Elvis saying things that a simple ISO can disprove.
First of all I didn’t start saying Serial was scummy when he bus’ed DN, secondly I called DN play scummy, his plan antitown and called him on his “Oh woe is me it’s a policy lynch act” so this assertion you keep making that I found DN to be town is flawed.

[elvis_knits]

I was referring to how you never said DN was scummy until you said that SC was bussing DN.

Do you want me to quote all your comments to DN and show how you didn't make much judgement on hims being scummy or not? YOU NEVER SAID DN WAS SCUMMY OR ANTI-TOWN UNTIL YOU SAID SC WAS BUSSING DN. If you did, prove me wrong, because I can't see it. I see you saying that his ideas are "terribad." Terribad=/=scummy.

It took you until your ISO 15 to even comment on DN's plan...

@Deathnote

, Empowering everyone is a terrible terrible terribad idea.

And you NEVER "BADGERED" DN. I can show you how to badger someone -- I know how to do it. You never badgered DN. You said stuff like this:

If I unimprint someone, its because i don't get a town vibe from them. Lew's post seem off.

He lacks as opinion on the issues of the game which everyone should have an opinion on at the moment.

Why do you find the need to call me out like that? Has someone been answering questions for me and making it seem like I am not fit to give responses for myself?

Issues discussed this game:

1. The controversy over the various plans people have suggested, my plan of imprinting everyone being one such topic.

2. The issues of Starbuck seemingly defending me against Elvis for coming up with said plan above.

3. SerialClergyman attacking Starbuck for defending me, and inadvertently defending Elvis in the process.

See it strikes me if you had even read his posts he touched on two of them and placed a vote based on the third. So instead I have to assume you removed him from your list of canadites because he was taking flak from people, then when questioned as to why you removed it you made up a reason without checking. If I'm wrong I'd love to know what i missed as going with whatever is popular at the moment is not exactly the best scum hunting technique.

Calling his blatantly scummy moves "not the best scum hunting technique" is like slapping a murderer with a wet noodle. It is not badgering!

I see no place where you call DN's actions scummy until your ISO 60, where you say SC is bussing DN. You call DN's actions terrible and terribad, and you tell him he's wrong and ask him softball questions, but you don't call him scum. Unless I'm missing it. Show me.

[TheButtonmen]

Elvis your attacking over something that never happened again. Please point out where I claimed to have said that DN was scum?

I called DN play scummy, his plan antitown and called him on his “Oh woe is me it’s a policy lynch act” so this assertion you keep making that I found DN to be town is flawed.

Is what i said, Now your claiming that I flat out said DN was scum and demanding I back it up. Well considering I didn't claim to have said that, once again I'm thinking your purposfully misrepping people.

[elvis_knits]

Elvis your attacking over something that never happened again. Please point out where I claimed to have said that DN was scum?

I called DN play scummy, his plan antitown and called him on his “Oh woe is me it’s a policy lynch act” so this assertion you keep making that I found DN to be town is flawed.

Is what i said, Now your claiming that I flat out said DN was scum and demanding I back it up. Well considering I didn't claim to have said that, once again I'm thinking your purposfully misrepping people.

Okay, wut? I'm attacking "over something that never actually happened"?? "AGAIN"?? Back that shit up, yo.

You're saying that you called DN scummy and anti-town, but that I am wrong when I say that you called him scum?

When you call someone scummy, it's the same as saying they're scum. If you argue that it's not the same thing, you're splitting hairs. Arguing that it's different is a matter of degree and semantics.

This is what is happening, buttonmen:
1)You called DN's play and ideas terrible, but not scummy. To me, terrible is not the same as scummy. People can be wrong without being scummy. Disagree?
2)You only calles DN scum when you said SC was bussing him. And saying SC is bussin DN means they have to both be scum, so you are calling DN scum there.

Get it?

[TheButtonmen]

Okay, wut? I'm attacking "over something that never actually happened"?? "AGAIN"?? Back that shit up, yo.

You back it up, where did I claim to have said DN was scum?

[elvis_knits]

WHEN YOU SAID SC WAS BUSSING DN, THAT MEANS YOU ARE CALLING BOTH OF THEM SCUM.

Do you seriously not get that concept?

[TheButtonmen]

WHEN YOU SAID SC WAS BUSSING DN, THAT MEANS YOU ARE CALLING BOTH OF THEM SCUM.

Err except that never happend?

And SC if DN is scum don't even try to pull the bullshit logic "oh look he's scum so that means I'm / Elvis is town"

Is what I said.