Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[TheButtonmen]

imprint elvis_knits

imprint SerialClergyman

Imprint: SerialClergyman
Imprint: elvis_knits

@SerialClergyman

Why did you inprint elvis_knits in your very first post? Especially since you have then said that you feel it's best to lynch without imprinting.

[elvis_knits]

We're scum buddies, obv.

[Vala Mal Doran]

This is funny, because when I opened the thread for the morning I was considering imprinting elvis and plum, because I think both of them have been quite town thus far. Elvis' post containing her vote to imprint herself throws up a major red flag for me, though.

I don't think it is a safe assumption at all that scum figured out they didn't have a night kill, at least not safe enough to auto-confirm people town. And the way elvis words her "revelation" post strikes me as a very, "I've been planning this all along!" sort of thing.

The quick succession of posts after DN voices his dissent also disturbs me -- it seems like EK is trying to cover all her bases too much, like it somehow didn't occur to her that not everyone would be gung-ho about her voting to imprint herself. Not to mention, this is DN we're talking about. He's leading in votes right now, and someone who previous to now has made such a good town showing really shouldn't be so eager to level with him, unless they knew they were pulling a dangerous gambit.

And as much as I dislike having to admit this after how annoying Buttonmen's been, he makes a great catch in 125, and EK immediately dismisses it sarcastically. If I were in a position of suddenly making myself look scummy as town, I would sure as hell answer any attacks as earnestly as possible, so the sarcasm just strikes me as another scumtell.

I think all of this is enough for me to

vote: Elvis

until we get some answers.

[elvis_knits]

I can possibly understand you thinking this:

I don't think it is a safe assumption at all that scum figured out they didn't have a night kill

Personally, I think they would figure it out. I think scum would know. Especially since they have a QT where they can daytalk. But, I can allow for the possibility that I am wrong, which is why I answered DN the way I did. Asking questions rather than just beating him into the ground. I don't want to give SC an imprint either if he's scum. For that matter, I don't care if you don't want to give me one. But I think this is possibly a REAL way to give the town an advatage here. I think that scum probably knew they had a NK. So giving me and SC imprints is the least risk to the town. I also don't care if I have to be lynched before endgame if my suggestion is SO controversial. I am banking on people seeing the truth in my hypothesis.

I also understand it looks weird that SC voted to imprint me in his first post and now I'm voting to imprint him. I'm sure he can tell you his reasoning, but I thought it had something to do with him having played with me before. Other than that, I don't know why he chose me. As far as I am concerned it just worked out that way for me, based on how we both seemed oblivious to the scum mechanics. I don't think it should bother anyone unless they really think my original assumption is wrong: that scum would know they can't NK.

It looks like you disagree, VMD, about my assumption. Why? Do you think scum often get mixed up about their killing powers?

[elvis_knits]

Also, my 126 is probably due to my frustration with TheButtonmen.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Also, my 126 is probably due to my frustration with TheButtonmen.

Fair enough, I suppose.

It's not that I particularly disagree with your hypothesis, it's that I don't think that it's nearly enough to confirm people who were clueless as town. Just about anyone could have waltzed into the topic on page 2 or 3, seen that nobody understood the setup, and pretended not to either regardless of whether or not they actually understood it. I don't think it should be considered a tell either way, and the fact that you think it is and the way in which you declared that worries me. A lot.

[elvis_knits]

Well, I do agree that it could have been faked. Those things do sometimes happen, although very very rarely, in my experience. Part of your decision should be depend on the context. Do you think either me or SC were faking and why?

When I read his statement about lylo, it seems obvious that he's assuming scum get NK's. So if he said that to mislead us, it was very crafty. It's not the type of thing that's easy to fake, IMO.

If I am somehow wrong in my hypothesis, I think it would be because scum were somehow very SLOW and hadn't yet realized they don't have a NK this game. I think the chances of faking are pretty slim.

One of the reasons I think it would have come up in the QT is that when I am scum I routinely talk about the other players in the game and who I am scared of and who we should think about NKing at some point. I talk about that type of stuff right off the bat, and I assume other people do also. I also would be PMing the mod questions, especially in a theme game with wierd mechanics. I just think the NK would have come up.

There's a chance it somehow didn't, but I consider the chance sort of slim.

I think I underestimated though how weird it probably looks for me and SC to be voting to imprint each other though. At the time I voted to imprint us, I really didn't care that it looked odd since I thought my conclusion that we were both town was pretty obvious. But I do understand why it might make people a little paranoid.

[TheButtonmen]

At the time I voted to imprint us, I really didn't care that it looked odd since I thought my conclusion that we were both town was pretty obvious. But I do understand why it might make people a little paranoid.

Please note I directed the question at him not you, you already laid out your reasons for the imprinting. Though I disagree with them I can at least understand it.

Serial on the other hand first post voted to inprint you two, then went on to say multiple times how he thought the best play was to inprint nobody. Hence me asking the question.

[elvis_knits]

I think it's a fair question of him.

Why do you disagree with my reasons for imprinting SC and me? Do you think we could be faking or do you think scum are dumb enough not to understand their own kill mechanic?

[TheButtonmen]

Why do you disagree with my reasons for imprinting SC and me? Do you think we could be faking or do you think scum are dumb enough not to understand their own kill mechanic?

I disagree with it because several people made that mistake of assuming scum started with NK but of them you only cleared yourself and Serial, who had in the past voted to also inprint you and himself.

[elvis_knits]

Who else made that mistake?

[elvis_knits]

You're wrong, Buttonmen. Before iamausername clarified, only SC, me and Deathnote had even posted, and I don't think DN mentioned anything about the NK. So there's no way of knowing what he thought.

[TheButtonmen]

Up until I learned that scum can not night kill, I was still for my plan.

I was down for the 'imprint everyone' idea until I heard the fact that Rogues don't have a night kill ability, unless imprinted with it.

[TheButtonmen]

EBYOP: Because remembering to attach the actual message is beyond me.

What I'm getting it at is clearing people based on them not understanding the game set up seems odd and easily fakeable. Then you only clearing one of the people who had assumed wrong stood out tome.

[elvis_knits]

Up until I learned that scum can not night kill, I was still for my plan.

I was down for the 'imprint everyone' idea until I heard the fact that Rogues don't have a night kill ability, unless imprinted with it.

But ANYONE can say that after it's been clarified. We need proof that they thought that before it was clarified, and the only people who made posts like that are me and SC. I asked if scum could use their imprint while they made their NK, and SC talked about getting to lylo through NKs.

Anyone else claiming that they didn't know obviously cannot be verified after the fact has been stated in thread.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Well, I do agree that it could have been faked. Those things do sometimes happen, although very very rarely, in my experience. Part of your decision should be depend on the context. Do you think either me or SC were faking and why?

When I read his statement about lylo, it seems obvious that he's assuming scum get NK's. So if he said that to mislead us, it was very crafty. It's not the type of thing that's easy to fake, IMO.

If I am somehow wrong in my hypothesis, I think it would be because scum were somehow very SLOW and hadn't yet realized they don't have a NK this game. I think the chances of faking are pretty slim.

One of the reasons I think it would have come up in the QT is that when I am scum I routinely talk about the other players in the game and who I am scared of and who we should think about NKing at some point. I talk about that type of stuff right off the bat, and I assume other people do also. I also would be PMing the mod questions, especially in a theme game with wierd mechanics. I just think the NK would have come up.

There's a chance it somehow didn't, but I consider the chance sort of slim.

I think I underestimated though how weird it probably looks for me and SC to be voting to imprint each other though. At the time I voted to imprint us, I really didn't care that it looked odd since I thought my conclusion that we were both town was pretty obvious. But I do understand why it might make people a little paranoid.

I don't think SC is faking at all, and if I had as much faith in your hypothesis as you do I would certainly vote to imprint him. You I'm a little less sure about, partially because you're the one that came up with the hypothesis and partially because I think you're intelligent and experienced enough (2005 join date?!) to pull something like fake naivety off and then use it to your advantage later.

On the note of scum being dumb... maybe people here have higher IQs than they do on the site I first played mafia on, but where I come from scum would

totally

be initially oblivious about their lack of nightkills. I don't want to give people here too much credit about figuring it out until I'm sure that credit is due. <_<;

Who else made that mistake?

I did, though I'm fairly certain I never said anything to that effect (by the time I saw the game thread was up it had already been publicly figured out that scum didn't have kills) and wouldn't expect you to believe that it implicated me either way even if I had. I don't, after all, agree with your theory.

[elvis_knits]

Again, obviously I am not going to count anything from someone who posted after the mod clarified that scum don't get a NK. That is a null tell.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Never expected you to.

I guess we wait for SC to come in and explain his early imprint votes.

[Pug89]

Do you think scum often get mixed up about their killing powers?

Scum having NKs is the norm and the role PM doesn't state explicitly that they do not have a NK.

Using the fact that you and SC didn't know scum didn't have NKs to confirm yourself as town seems tenuous at best to me. SC's votes to imprint both elvis and himself at the beginning of the game certainly seem strange as well. At the same time he (I'm assuming randomly) voted for me but random voting to imprint seems strange too me; especially since he never unvoted or confirmed that he wanted to keep them, they just flew under the radar.

I'm glad elvis mentioned that scum can talk during the day. It is another thing different about this game that is easy to forget and should be kept it mind. It makes it much easier for scum to cooperate during the day than in a normal game.

[TheButtonmen]

The best part of all this is that your plan wouldn't even work, because I did actually consider potential game-breaking strategies when designing the set up, because I'm

not an idiot

. But I didn't want to say so, because I thought it might reveal setup info that I didn't want to reveal

If a infinite number of town uses of imprinting with no scum kills wouldn't win we can tell somethings about imprinting. Possibilities include;

A) There is no investigative imprints.
B) Imprinting has a chance to kill you.
C) Imprinting may change your alignment.
D) Scum can get imprinted by some method other then the vote.
E) Some imprints effect multiple people.

If anyone else think of other ways that a infinite number of town imprints wouldn't win please add them.

[Messiah]

I don't like ek's insistence that we should consider her town at all. ek, I feel like you're significantly downplaying the possibility that you could be faking or the(even more likely, imo) possibility that scum would have no idea they didn't have a nk.

[SerialClergyman]

@SerialClergyman Why did you inprint elvis_knits in your very first post? Especially since you have then said that you feel it's best to lynch without imprinting.

When we started I knew a lot lss about imprinting other than it would be useful in the hands of good protown players. I have limited experience with the people here, I know I've played with Plum but only briefly. But I've played one long and great game with EK and know her to be an excellent player and also feel I have an edge in reading her.

Plus me wanting to imprint myself is obvious.

It is possibly unfortunate given EK's theory that it worked out like that, but so it goes. I'd either be immensely stupid or playing some serious double WIFOM games if we were buddies and had worked out that we'd pull a gambit about understanding night kills and yet BEFORE that gambit I just tossed an imprint her way.

As for why I haven't removed them - I just haven't thought about it. No one is in danger of being 'imprint hammered' and we're still thinking about what's the best way to use it. Remember I was the one who initially also suggested imprinting everyone, which has since been all but ruled out as an option.

I'm down with EK's plan. I doubt she came up with the gambit, waited for a town player to do the same thing she was planning to do, asked the question twice before TRAP SPRUNG and then claimed herself in the rush. I think she's genuine.

Ground rules for imprinting could be a good idea. Should we use our abilities (track or cop or whatever else) on each other, given we are both in positions of power? Should we take a vig kill if we get a killing power? etc.

[DeathNote]

I originally thought my plan to imprint all would help town more then harm until the mod posted that scum did not have a night kill. Since then, I sorta gave up on my idea as it would mean giving scum their night kills which I thought they all ready had.

[TheButtonmen]

Since then, I sorta gave up on my idea as it would mean giving scum their night kills which I thought they all ready had.

Sorta? Also if you given up on that plan, what are your thoughts now?

[DeathNote]

Right now, I don't have a plan but I have found reason to dislike most other ideas shown. I say sorta because out of the ideas shown, I like mine the best, but I stopped pushing for it.