Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[SerialClergyman]

Crap, I'm at work, can't go trawling for images of a young Brad Pitt - I'll ahve to owe you..

[SerialClergyman]

Limerickx's style reads town to me and his V/LAs might account for some of what I noted. He also had some interactions with DeathNote early that read as town to me.

VMD, IIRC, called me vs Starbuck a town v town battle. Since this was correct (even if now she doesn't believe it), this is a definite point in her favour.

XRECX - thoughts on the game so far? Who's scum?

@all I'm in favour of say 2-3 imprints and no lynch. Can we agree on that approach or does anyone want a lynch?

[elvis_knits]

I think no-lynch and imprint is best.

If we're lynching I would vote farside, personally. I realize I have little pull at this point and SC would probably be lynched instead. If we're lynching we really should wait to look at the flip, imprint tomorrow and nolynch tomorrow. That's the only thing that makes sense. I highly suspect SC will flip town if we lynch him, so the flip is crucial info. But even if you think SC will flip scum, there is nothing lost by waiting on the imprints.

[xRECKONERx]

No-lynch/imprint seems fine to me.

Honestly, I'm wary of the people who were against the DeathNote lynch. I may have been one of those people, but I

know

my town-ness.

[Limerickx]

So, I am MOST suspicious as of that post, because I voted for scum and didn't vote for townie?

Yes. I think with most townies, the DeathNote flip was a pretty big factor in getting Starbuck lynched. I certainly felt they were heavily connected and pointed it out several times.

So the fact that I didn't agree with you makes me look suspicious, even though I ended up being right? Ever consider that you were wrong, and people might disagree with you, have reasons, and end up being right?

From a townie's point of view, if you were prepared to push DeathNote and be on his wagon but you

weren't

prepared to be on the Starbuck wagon then there's some serious disconnect in the thinking.

No. This is wrong. Please learn to logic. Just as townies can be suspicious of other townies and just end up being wrong, a townie can think a scum is good and end up being wrong. The WAY the defense is done is what is important. I didn't think Starbuck's defense of DN was a defense of "DN IS TOWN NOT MAFIA OMGWTFBBQ", I just felt she didn't like the logic being used in some cases against DN, and spoke on that specifically. I didn't get a scum read off Starbuck.

Someone like Buttonmen doesn't come away looking as suspicious because he's always thought I was scummy and wanted nothing to do with the cases I was pushing. But someone who was behind the DeathNote lynch but not the Starbuck lynch seems odd to me.

Even though I ended up being right. Ok.......

I think Limerickx's spot is the most suspicious. Second last on the Deathnote wagon and not voting on D2.

Limerickx's style reads town to me and his V/LAs might account for some of what I noted. He also had some interactions with DeathNote early that read as town to me.

The first quote was from yesterday, the second was today. Why did you suddenly change your mind on me? YESTERDAY I was super suspicious based on my voting pattern, but now I'm not because if my style? Could it be that because I voted for you, and pointed out your OWN voting pattern you'd rather back off calling me scummy? Now that you have three votes on you?

Related to this, can we also talk about how funny it is that you are NOW in favor of 2-3 imprint and a no lynch, now that you happen to have 3 votes to lynch you? The first night imprinting was such a bad idea, and lynching was good, so much so that you felt the need to hammer while everyone else was talking about imprinting, but now that you're in the hot seat, lets imprint and not lynch?

[SerialClergyman]

Limerick's points:

1) You only want to imprint not lynch now your head is on the chopping block!

SC, if starbuck does not flip town, I think the best bet is to imprint some town people and hope they either find scum or investigate us innocent. Then we go from there.

I agree.

This happened before Starbuck's flip (clearly). If I was wrong about Starbuck, I was always in favour of turning to imprints. It was only when we had a good lead on scum that I thought imprinting was a bad idea.

2) You now think I'm town! Worried you're oging to be LYNCHED??

I am conflicted about you. You remain the most suspicious spot on wagon analysis. Your play has been quite townie though. I'm in favour of listing thoughts as they come to me and being honest about my reads. So I don't think your town now nor did I think you were scum yesterday. I'm struggling to determine what your alignment is.

Aside from that, I think a charge of self-preservation is a pretty weak one against me and my play this game. Were I scum, I'd have known that Starbuck's lynch would bring a metric shit-ton of suspicion on me, not to mention my various pleas to lynch me to prove my towniness.

3) I was right about Starbuck, how does that make me suspicious?

The problem comes about from the situation. There are 3 scum, they all know Starbuck is town and can daytalk. They are presented with an absolute gift, a townie pushing hard the lynch of another townie.

So the question one must attempt to answer is what they would do with themselves. A lynch of Starbuck (or even myself) would be easy to manufacture and they could essentially choose to be on it or not.

Deathnote's wagon was different, it really spring up. So yes, it's definitely odd to me that you would be on DN's wagon and not on SBs.

Were you not around for much of D2?

[Vala Mal Doran]

Were I scum, I'd have known that Starbuck's lynch would bring a metric shit-ton of suspicion on me

WIFOM. I think you thought you could weasel your way out of it, personally.

imprint: Limerick

This is probably the only other imprint vote I'm going to place for the day. Lim looks most town to me after Button, and it's been that way pretty much all game. SC is wishy-washy on him despite saying he's the most suspicious in 697, and that only makes me more certain of Lim's towniness. I'm pretty sure SC realizes that if he aggressively leads another lynch on a townie he'll be ruthlessly buried for it.

@Reck, post 727: How much would you say the one post you quoted counteracts elvis' more scummy words/actions?

[Plum]

This is a hold-on post; if my school filter lets I'm going to try to get something up before evening. I find this as or more frustrating than y'all do. I'm trying here.

[elvis_knits]

unimprint VMD

[elvis_knits]

Honestly, I'm wary of the people who were against the DeathNote lynch. I may have been one of those people, but I know my town-ness.

Let's look at the end of day VC from D1:

-=Vote Count #13: The End of Day One Vote Count=-

Nevada (7) - Virginia, Georgia, Montana, Iowa, Colorado, Florida, Alaska

Virginia (2) - Arizona, Kansas
Alaska (1) - Hawaii

Not Voting (2) - Nevada, Ohio

7 to lynch.

-=Imprint Count #13: The End of Day One Imprint Count=-

Ohio (5) - Nevada, Florida, Arizona, Ohio, Colorado
Colorado (5) - Nevada, Ohio, Colorado, Iowa, Florida
Hawaii (5) - Nevada, Arizona, Kansas, Colorado, Hawaii
Montana (4) - Nevada, Ohio, Virginia, Kansas
Alaska (3) - Alaska, Nevada, Virginia
Florida (3) - Nevada, Florida, Ohio
Iowa (3) - Arizona, Iowa, Kansas
Georgia (3) - Nevada, Georgia, Virginia
Virginia (2) - Alaska, Virginia
Arizona (1) - Nevada
Kansas (1) - Nevada
Nevada (1) - Nevada

7 to imprint.

ALASKA = SerialClergyman
ARIZONA = Starbuck
COLORADO = Messiah
FLORIDA = Limerickx
GEORGIA = Plum
HAWAII = TheButtonmen
IOWA = xRECKONERx
KANSAS = farside22
MONTANA = Pug89
NEVADA = DeathNote
OHIO = Vala Mal Doran
VIRGINIA = elvis_knits

*totally gonna write some flavour here too, honest.*

Nevada, Rogue Active - Sent to the Attic Day One

No one has been imprinted.

-=No imprints means no need for a night, so we're straight on to Day Two! Deadline set for Thursday, 14th January. With 11 alive, it will take 6 votes to lynch or imprint.=-

Translated for ease of reading:

DN

(7): elvis, plum, pug, reckoner, messiah, limerick, SC
Elvis (2):

starbuck

, farside
SC (1): Buttonmen

Not voting:

DN

, VMD

VMD (5) -

DN

, Limerick,

Starbuck

, VMD, Messiah
Messiah (5) -

DN

, VMD, Messiah, Reskoner, Limerick
Thebuttonmen (5) -

DN

,

Starbuck

, Farside, Messiah, TheButtonmen
Pug (4) -

DN

, VMD, Elvis, Farside
SC (3) - SC,

DN

, Elvis
Limerick (3) -

DN

, Limerick, VMD
Reckoner (3) -

Starbuck

, Reckoner, Farside
Plum (3) -

DN

, Plum, Elvis
elvis (2) - SC, Elvis

Starbuck

(1) -

DN

Farside (1) -

DN

DN (1) - DN

NOTE: DN tried(?) to unimprint lewarcher (reckoner), but did not bold the request, so it is not reflected in the VC.

(I'm going to do some analysis, but just wanted to post this so I can refer back to it, and anyone else can do their own analysis too. I think that a lot of this needs to be discussed with context too).

[elvis_knits]

EBWOP: Oh, the DN unimprint vote IS reflects in the VC... never mind my little "Note" above.

[iamausername]

-=Vote Count #21=-

Alaska (3) - Colorado, Iowa, Florida
Colorado (1) - Ohio
Virginia (1) - Kansas

Not Voting (5) - Alaska, Georgia, Hawaii, Montana, Virginia

6 to lynch.

-=Imprint Count #21=-

Hawaii (5) - Hawaii, Kansas, Ohio, Iowa, Florida
Montana (3) - Virginia, Kansas, Alaska
Florida (2) - Florida, Ohio
Ohio (1) - Ohio
Colorado (1) - Virginia
Georgia (1) - Virginia
Iowa (1) - Iowa
Alaska (0)
Kansas (0)
Virginia (0)

6 to imprint.

ALASKA = SerialClergyman
COLORADO = Messiah
FLORIDA = Limerickx
GEORGIA = Plum
HAWAII = TheButtonmen
IOWA = xRECKONERx
KANSAS = farside22
MONTANA = Pug89
OHIO = Vala Mal Doran
VIRGINIA = elvis_knits

[xRECKONERx]

Hmm. Farside/Buttonmen/VMD were not on the DN wagon.

SC, lim, and Messiah hopped on at the end.

Imprint: Plum, Pug, elvis

And

Unimprint: Buttonmen

[farside22]

Basing this just on DN's lynch is not all there is to finding scum. Look at star she wasn't on there and was town. For all people know there was 1 or 2 scum on the DN wagon.

As for no lynch I think if we were going to imprint it should have happened yesterday.
PS: I don't care for reck complete turn around based on a vote pattern.
Please explain reck how you find EK town with her constant (3 players now) that she has misrepresented.

[elvis_knits]

So I keep going back and forth on VMD. On the one hand she has made a number of dubious votes. Vote buttonmen for breaking strategy. Voted me for noticing towntells on me and SC. Voting SC on the grounds that he was "obviously bussing DN."

On the other hand I get the feeling sometimes that she's just town that I just disagree with.

Reading her over, I wanted to ask about this:

Smart scum will bus their scumbuddies if they think the benefits will outweigh losing a member. Period. For a scum attacking a scum!DN, they would receive far more benefits from bussing him early and hard than they would from keeping him alive,

assuming he's as useless in the QT as he is here

. If DN is scum I expect to find at least two of the scumbags on his lynch trying to make themselves look good, if not all three. You're completely disregarding the fact that he is a blatantly anti-town player, and not someone scum would probably want to keep around if he's going to undermine their strategies.

(I bolded that part).

It seems really weird to me that she would speculate on DN's contributions in the scum QT. Although, if she's scum I don't know why she would say this either exactly. I guess I'd just like to hear more about this and why she was thinking about this?

[elvis_knits]

Please explain reck how you find EK town with her constant (3 players now) that she has misrepresented.

lol

Who did I misrep farside?

[farside22]

Please explain reck how you find EK town with her constant (3 players now) that she has misrepresented.

lol

Who did I misrep farside?

Me, star and buttonman.
I pointed out your misrep's but you keep ignoring them.

[elvis_knits]

Tell me what you want me to respond to. I have no doubt that you think I misrepped you at some point or another as we've had many disagreements, but I don't know what in particular you have a problem with. I also don't know what I did to Buttonmen or Star. I actually think I don't want to comment on Starbuck ever again in my life since she is an incredibly poor sport (and that's about the nicest thing I have to say about her). Oh, except that your vote on Starbuck makes no sense since you were all over me and SC and then, OUT OF NOWHERE, you jumped on the lynch we wanted. Then after Starbuck started pitching a fit you went back to blaming us for all that is evil in the world.

ANYWAY, if you could point me to what posts or whatever you want me to address, I'll do it. I ISOed you and there's just so much crap there and half of it I don't even know what you're trying to say. I've been trying not to say this because I don't want to offend you (because I really like you on a personal level), but sometimes your grammar and sentences are so confusing that it's hard for me to understand.

[farside22]

Here were the few concern's I had with SC

sc:
post http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 31#2007531

He pushes more on starbuck lynch then DN in the first few pages

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 58#2008558

He tries to use her attackes on EK then also ties in the DN defense.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 18#2008618

Even says he never called DN scum and pushes more on starbuck.
However this quote is the nail to me:

3) Why is DN scum?

Because in this theory of the game, Starbuck is defending a buddy. I totally admit my case is absolutely dependent on Starbuck being scum. But mafia is about finding the informed minority, and I'm telling you that is part of it.

Basically if starbuck comes up town then DN is cleared. Which we now know that star was town and DN is scum.

Seriously good posting. Despite calling my ideas crazy. Or perhaps because of that . Crazy but true is my speciality.

To be honest, my case against DN dies if Starbuck is scum and vice versa. My main point about Starbuck is that she's acting bizarrey towards Deathnote. Can't see much reason for scum --> town unless it's a weird way of buddying, so I'm sticking with scum --> scum.

This is where I feel confused. It's going to leave me with many thoughts based on SC's alignment reading this again and again and wondering.

Ok - different plan. Lynch me, imprint elvis. If I flip scum, lynch elvis. That would only cost you 1 day with imprinted scum. If I flip town, lynch Starbuck or Deathnote and imprint elvis again.

Basically when everyone disagreed with SC's plan for doing the imprints he doesnt' want to imprint anyone then.

I have a suggestion. Lynch DN, imprint me. If I'm wrong, and he's town, I'll be the next lynch, and I'll tell you all what my power was and where I used it and what I found. If I'm right, we lynch Starbuck and imprint me and elvis.

Trying to clear himself based on DN's flip.

My answer to how DN flip clears them.


http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2015747

reasoning on DN is all WIFOM. Awesome and finally

unvote, vote deathnote

executive decision. Let's continue this after a flip.

And the hammer.
There was after the comment from DN that SC called DN scum but he continued to hammer starbuck in this case now looking back it almost seems that SC was trying to get SB lynched first over and over again.

Unvote:
Vote: SC

Fos: EK

[farside22]

@EK: This is only the last time I'm showing something I said 2 times already.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 00#2021200

[elvis_knits]

Okay well I'm getting post 719 from that link, so I'll just respond to everything lest I be accused of ignoring!

Once again farside: hammering without imprints is not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing. Now that we have starbuck's flip it helps us decide who to imprint. Imprinting before a lynch is imprinting blindly. The correct way to do things is to lynch, look at the flip, imprint and then no lynch.

Lets see you want to imprint in the hopes someone will check you/or SC but didn't want an imprint for anyone to check starbuck?
Do I have that right
As for dn's push that is more assumptions. That's like saying you know what was in his head when he hatched the plan in the first place.

No, not right.

Why should we imprint before seeing a flip? What if that flip would change our thoughts on imprinting?

If we are sure enough to lynch somebody, then we should lynch then look at the flip and change our imprints accordingly and then no-lynch.

I was sure enough about starbuck to think lynching her was better than no-lynching and imprinting.

Lets say in theory we get a cop imprint. Them checking the lynchee can prove town/scum.

So I see no harm in imprinting before a flip and after a flip we can only imprint someone before a flip so why no lynch.

It should all depend on the lynch.

Bolded part is confusing to me. I have no idea what you're arguing here. If I'm supposed to respond to this you'll have to explain what you mean.

As for you're quote on SB I explained my position on that.

I don't understand you here either.

(Am I just stupid? I don't get you.)

Finally:

I'm actually sort of surprised farside voted for Starbuck. She went from repeating "elvis and SC are scum, everything they say is crap sandwich (including how starbuck is scum)... and elvis is buddies with VMD" to "Look how vmd and starbuck are connected to deathnote! vote starbuck."

Please show where I called both of you scum. Show where I said everything you both said was crap and commented on your SB case (which you just proved I never said anything till that post). I'm pointing out budding I noticed how is that not scum hunting?

Since your first post you've been saying stuff like:

I really don't like that both SC and Elvis imprint each other too much buddy, buddy for me. I don't care if you know someone in the game giving an imprint without a reason is just as scummy to me as doing a vote without a reason.

Doesn't this mean that you think we're scum buddies?

Then you spent a lot of time telling SC he was just wrong and that he was being fooled by scumelvis. But you're not realy sure and even if SC is town you basically think he's very wrong. I'm not trying to misrep you. This is what I saw. Stuff like this sums it up:

I think you are putting too much stock into believing elvis is town were I don't see this as EK town read so far.
Then I have that sick thought that you are trying to use this a ploy as scum you may not be partner with EK and hope it will lynch town tomorrow.

Call this lack of trust in either of you.

As I said reading both of you I feel one is scum and EK is who I lean as scum in this case over you.

(bolding is mine)

It's statements like this, especially the bolded that made me say that you thought everything we said was crap. "Lack of trust in either of you." And saying one or both of us must be scum. That destroys our credibility, and ecourages people not to listen to us.

And if you lack such trust in us, and think one or both of us is scum, I really question why you would have ever voted Starbuck. And the way you turned on us after starbuck pitched a fit really makes me think you were avoiding responsibility and trying to throw dirt on me and SC. Yes, I voted Starbuck. But I thought she was scum for ages. You can see that in my posts. I had lots of dealing with her. On the other hand, you voted Starbuck OUT OF NOWHERE.

I also think farside is scum since she vote starbuck and then commiserated with her how horrible me and SC were and how we were the root of all evil. farside was on that lynch too.

I voted for starbuck based on the interactions I saw as well. Along with VMD because it all gave me pause. As for the commiserating I don't want to discuss those thoughts till the end of the game because even though a part is game related some is more about trying not to ruin the game. However I feel if I don't say this you will just bring it up again.
I think a lot of what your doing is scum motivated EK. A lot of the ignoring and misrep I don't see as personal but scum motivated
As for SC I see it has him playing maryter not listening or reasoning but I could be wrong on my read on him and it could be him using AtE.

Your vote-post on starbuck was just a bunch of quotes that you bolded, no explanation from you. I would think it would take a lot for you to vote starbuck when me and SC were voting her. But you hardly even write anything. I just don't think you were sincere, because if you were sincere, I think you would have written and explained more.

And then you threw me and SC under the bus:

To be honest, Starbuck, I'll learn that we were right about one scum and wrong about another and that's better than random chance.

You need to allow people to be wrong.

You need to learn that there are 10 other people playing this game besides you and Elvis.

QFT ^ I almost, almost thought about asking for a replacement do to the maryter attitude from both of them. It's almost like banging your head against a wall when someone doesn't listen to your opinion which is just as valid.
The only reason I don't see SC scum right now is I can't imagine a scum player taking the chance to hammer and ask for his own lynch like that.
Granted it could be an AtE but it's still hard to imagine. However EK has not done anything I found townie without using either assumptions or some of the WIFOM about the role and the DN flip which I disputed and get ignored mainly by her.

And this is where you commiserate with starbuck. You accuse us of being martyr sand then proceed to be one yourself, saying you almost asked for replacement. You replaced into this game! Give me a break.

And I am listening to your opinion farsie, I just disagree. There is a difference. And it's not fair for you to say that I ignore you just because I don't want to repeat myself 500 times about how I disagree with you.

You can shout WIFOM about my opinions all day long, but I don't think it's WIFOM when one glass of wine has a much higher chance of being the right one to choose. I've said this before.

Also, please notice how you're doing the exact same thing by saying "SC is prob not scum because he asked to be lynched." Anyone could say to you WIFOM about that. And techinically it probably is. But you are using your intuition and experience as a player to say that scum probably wouldn't act how he is acting. That is exactly what I am doing with confirming SC because he said something I consider a towntell.

[farside22]

You talked about my vote on SB (starbuck) I was saying I already explain my reasoning on it.

Since your first post you've been saying stuff like:

farside wrote:
I really don't like that both SC and Elvis imprint each other too much buddy, buddy for me. I don't care if you know someone in the game giving an imprint without a reason is just as scummy to me as doing a vote without a reason.

ORLY??
First of all this quote was after 3 pages:

Then I read further and said the following:

Did you not call him scummy not but 2 pages ago for trying to break the game?
So far I want to just FOS: EK for that 180 on buttonmen

bah reading SC post about EK in 215 I get the impression he is just impressed with EK and ignoring things that he shouldn't.

post 231 I will say a lot of this is WIFOM but some isn't but I will be happy to answer this
1) I think one of you is scum based on my read
2) you could it would be easy to explain later but it's a trail and hard to say if scum would do this but again I don't like random imprints from people
3) meh? I would like this rephrased
4) he does and there is no reason for scum to not realize this as I showed
5) what?
6) what?

I think you are putting too much stock into believing elvis is town were I don't see this as EK town read so far.
Then I have that sick thought that you are trying to use this a ploy as scum you may not be partner with EK and hope it will lynch town tomorrow. Call this lack of trust in either of you. As I said reading both of you I feel one is scum and EK is who I lean as scum in this case over you.

By the way I did find a game that didn't mention the scum all had a NK and but they could kill but it got ignored too.

Then lets get to why you want to clear yourself so much and how it is called WIFOM:

A lot of you trying to clear you and SC is based on WIFOM. But the fact that nothing I said to you thus far in regards to how it is WIFOM makes me wish I could vote you all over again.
I need to read back on DN. For me no matter what DN's role is it doesnt' clear you. I'm starting to feel that SC is just blinded by you and trying to clear him. However him saying he can't see scum having a reason to do this is laughable at best.

As for starbucks comment about you both I did say this early:

I swear it drives me freeking bonkers that every post I read is that unless people are siding with you and elvis they are scum or just not listening. Like wow I'm so not allowed to my opinion everyone. I just be mindless and just listen to EK and SC.

As statements like this, especially the bolded that made me say that you thought everything we said was crap. "Lack of trust in either of you." And saying one or both of us must be scum. That destroys our credibility, and ecourages people not to listen to us.

You expect people to trust anyone in mafia? Really???? Even my town read of button I feel off about it when I see do things. Till I feel 100% certain on anyone I don't trust really anyone.

And then you threw me and SC under the bus:

How is that throwing a person under the bus exactly?

[farside22]

So far you (EK) are trying to say your town based on a misinteruptation of a scum PM (which again I proved is an assumption anyone would make and went as far as showing PM's sent to scum that don't tell them all they have a nk). To saying that when DN flips that should prove you town.
The final thing I have issue with is DN wanting to imprint both of you so bad could be both scum wanting to do a NK with just one or two more mislynches it's all possible but lets ask the mod:

Mod:

If 2 mafia get imprinted do they both get a NK or does only one get to perform a NK?

[farside22]

So far you (EK) are trying to say your town based on a misinteruptation of a scum PM (which again I proved is an assumption anyone would make and went as far as showing PM's sent to scum that don't tell them all they have a nk). To saying that when DN flips that should prove you town and talking about how scum buss their scum buddies and yes on day 1 and yes on page 1. Why the hell not?
The final thing I have issue with is

SC

wanting to imprint both of you so bad could be both scum wanting to do a NK with just one or two more mislynches it's all possible but lets ask the mod:

Mod:

If 2 mafia get imprinted do they both get a NK or does only one get to perform a NK?

Sorry I needed to do a fix. In the quote is the correct intials and put into bold.

[Pug89]

@Everyone - Do you think that plum posting in her other games but not here is a null or scum tell?

Not particularly since this game moves pretty quickly but I do want to see more from Plum.

My impression of TheButtonmen hasn't changed so I'm going to vote to imprint him. When I get a chance (It may be a few days though) I want reread some stuff and I'll probably vote to imprint one more person.

Imprint:TheButtonmen
Imprint:Pug89