Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[elvis_knits]

Interesting mechanics!

Sometimes I only gloss over the rules and such, but I recommend everyone read everything, especially the game specific rules.

It seems the setup is 8 town vs 4 scum, and we vote each day who we want to give power roles to by voting to imprint people.

This part I found really interesting: An ordinary active will only stay imprinted with a power for a night/day. The rogue actives (scum) are resistant to mindswiping, and will RETAIN POWERS INDEFINITELY. Basically if we screw up and give a scum a power role, they will keep it for the rest of that game. So we have to be careful about handing out the imprints.

Another thing. We vote on imprinting just like we vote on the lynch. We can unvote imprinting too. EXCEPT, once someone reaches a majority for imprinting, unvoting doesn't matter, they will be imprinted. So everyone needs to realize that once we reach the majority for imprinting, it can't be taken back.

[elvis_knits]

Hi SC!

Last time I played in a username game I got killed N0.

[elvis_knits]

When I said be careful, I meant about reaching majority. I don't mean people shouldn't vote to imprint at all. Just to be mindful that it can't be taken back once they reach majority.

Giving everyboyd an imprint might work. Maybe it would increase our chances of catching scum? It might be a big mess, but hopefully we'd have more info to work with.

But since the scum will retain their ability and the town won't... if we do the same thing tomorrow by giving everybody imprints, will the scum get more than one power? Because I wouldn't want to double up the powers on scum when we can only have one at a time. That's the only flaw I see in that plan.

[elvis_knits]

vote: Deatnote

Way to ignore my concern about scum maybe being able to retain more than one power.

Also, we don't have to do all or nothing re: imprints. I think the best thing to do is to give as many imprints out TO PEOPLE WE THINK ARE TOWN.

Unless it turns out that scum cannot retain more than one ability. Then maybe we can imprint everyone. But I think we definitely have to avoid a plan where town will have one power at a time and scum will get ANOTHER power every day.

Mod: Can scum players gain more than one power? If they are imprinted more than once, will they have access to both imprint powers, and can they use them both in one night or have to choose only one at a time? Also, can scum use a power in the same night that they perform a kill? Or does making a kill prevent them from using a secondary power?

[elvis_knits]

If scum EVER get a majority of imprints, they will forever keep those imprints - meaning if we give a role to everyone today, all the scum players will have a role for the rest of the game.

So if we go with this plan we have to do it on all subsequent days. And only if we are assured scum cannot retain more than one ability.

I agree that it will probably be a clusterfuck of information. I'm not opposed to that necessarily. I like a fast, exciting game, and giving everyone powers will definitely do that. So, it might be good.

But if we want to go a more concervative route I would just give imprints to people we think are town. We can still give a lot out... I would not be opposed to that. I'm not sure I want to give a power role to a player I think is scum, unless there is some reason to think we can test them. And not knowing what our imprint will be or what their will be, this might be difficult.

[elvis_knits]

Okay, didn't see mod clarification with my last post.

So essentially, scum will rack up as many powers as we give them, but only be able to use one at a time. Which is still totally in their favor. As SC said, they can pick the best one to perform.

I don't think we should imprint nobody. That's like deciding to do a vanilla game with 8:4 which sucks for town.

I think this setup encourages us to give power roles to the right people.

I still think we should give powers to anyone and everyone that we think is town. SC is right that probably some scum will end up getting powers too, but maybe we can say that power roles that are actually town should be checking the other power roles to make sure they are not doing evil with their power, or lying when they claim the next day. Because I think everyone should be claiming their action from the previous night.

[elvis_knits]

Perhaps we try a day without imprints and see how we go? Ugh.. that means we're in lylo if we mislynch.

How do you figure this?

[elvis_knits]

Up until I learned that scum can not night kill, I was still for my plan.

@Those that apposed my idea-
I addressed the fact that scum gets power roles as well and know that they can keep them, however, trying to dodge giving them a power is going to be really difficult. With my idea, at least we know more town people have powers for tonight then scum. We won't be able to mass imprint any other day cause each scum having two powers would be insane, but hopefully we wouldn't have too. Night 1 results should confirm at least

one

town and we can just give that person(s) imprints from then on.

This is a really bad plan. If scum get atleast one kill power the first night, they can use it pretty much undetected and continue for the rest of the game.

On N1, when everyone has a power, it's going to yield a town of complicated interractions which is going to be hard to sort out. We might be able to catch the kill, we might not.

And then, you want to confirm one person and have them be the designated power role for the rest of that game? First of all, how are you going to confirm them? You're hoping someone gets cop? What if the person who claims cop is faking scum who "confirms" a buddy, or what if the cop is insane?

And second, it does not seem like good odds to have one town power role against a four-man scum team where every player has a power! You're totally putting the scumteam on steroids, and then giving the town the least power possible.

[elvis_knits]

Limerick's plan is good, except...

DICE ROLL IS CRAP!

We need to play this game like normal and decide who we think is scum, lynch them, and in the process, decide who we think is town, and vote for the imprint based on that.

Dice roll gives little info to us. We need to ELECT people to be imprinted based on who we think is town. Then we will have a record of who voted for whom to be imprinted. We can look at why they voted for a person to be imprinted and such. That way, we can see more easily who is connected to whom. Let's say that at some point we find out somebody is scum. And that person had been elected to be imprinted. Well then we can look who voted to imprint that person and why. It is another important tool we can use to scum hunt.

Dice roll will tell us nothing.

For instance, if deathnote rolled the imprint, I would certainly NOT be okay with it. Not only do I not want him getting a power, I would think it sucks that his buddies didn't even have to vote for him to get it. I want scum to have to work hard to get their powers, not win it in a lottery.

We need to ELECT, not dice roll.

[elvis_knits]

How is a dice roll any better? If people vote for an imprint, that's information and discussion we get out of it. If people vote to imprint someone who's later found out as scum, we can take a closer look at the people in favour of imprinting that person, which is essentially a gold mine of information we would not have if we determined an imprint by dice roll.

I see VMD had the same thought.

^5

[elvis_knits]

So far, Deathnote and The Buttonmen are scum.

Just saying.

[elvis_knits]

Basically theres a whole lot a scum and not that many town, thus voting is tilted in scum favour, so by randomizing we remove that. Now if we randomly chose a player day 1 and repeatedly imprint them and vote NL until they find scum we have a 66% of winning right now and honestly with a 2-1 town to scum ratio that's a hell of a lot better win % then playing the game straight up.

This is wrong. And scummy.

There are 4 scum and 8 town. You're making it sound like town is in the minority. We are twice as strong at the scum right now.

[elvis_knits]

So you're saying we should elect randomly?

That's like saying we should also lynch randomly because otherwise scum have too much control.

[elvis_knits]

We need to play this game like normal and decide who we think is scum, lynch them, and in the process, decide who we think is town, and vote for the imprint based on that.

We can't play this game like normal if we want to win IMO, 8-4 is unwinnable by town in regular mafia, thus playing this like a regular game of mafia seems a terrible call.

When I say play this game like a regular game of mafia, I mean use our brains and scum hunt while we think about the special mechanics and plan accordingly.

Rolling a dice like a monkey is not an effective strategy, and only robs the town of information.

[elvis_knits]

Deathnote, I obviously want us to use powers in this game. I want us to use them intelligently and not roll dice like monkeys, or give scum a huge advantage by giving everyone powers.

What I want is that we give powers to a few (or maybe 1) person that we think is town.

I am not advocating we play a vanilla game at all.

[elvis_knits]

My method for choosing who to imprint would be that we play mafia and decide who we think is town

Seriously, if we're just going to dice roll and imprint one person repeatedly, no-lynching for days on end, waiting for the one person to draw a cop role and hit scum, well then I would ask for replacement right now because you don't actually need players for that and it's not going to be fun.

You don't even know what kind of roles the imprinter will get. What if they get tracker? Well, nobody else is going anywhere, so tracker will do nothing. What if the imprinter draw bulletproof or jailkeeper, or doc, or like a ton of other roles? The only role that will yield results with this plan is cop, and the cop has to be sane. And even if the imprinter draws cop once, they might not get it again.

HOW WILL THIS WORK?

We HAVE to still play mafia, and dole out the imprints carefully. But we cannot no-lynch forever and hope for the best.

[elvis_knits]

And I am sorry if I offended you with the monkey comments. I get sort of excited sometimes.

[elvis_knits]

Well, when I thought buttonman was misrepping the town's influence (ie, saying there is a lot of scum and not many town sounds like we are in the minority, which is not true), I thought he was scummy.

But I think he is actually trying to win the game (through breaking the game). So that's not scummy.

However, I am not playing a game where we vote nolynch hundreds of times in an effort to get a cop result (which may be paranoid or insane). That is not mafia.

I would rather lose a game of mafia than win a game of whatever Buttonmen is telling us to do.

I also have a bit more faith in my ability to detect scum, and a town's ability to pull together. I don't think we have to lose this game if we go a different route than buttonmen is saying.

[elvis_knits]

Buttonmen - What if there are multiple cop roles -- one paranoid, one insane, one sane, one naive, but they all just say "cop" in the role pm. And if the imprinter gets different results from different cop roles, they can't even check their sanity because they don't know if they have the same cop role that they did last time.

[elvis_knits]

Good simulpost, pug.

[elvis_knits]

Iamausername says it won't work.

And I for one, refuse to participate in the breaking strategy anyway. No lynch is against my religion, for one thing.

Anyone who wants to do Buttonmen's plan, raise your hand.

I am hoping that after everyone tells buttonmen they won't do this, he will finally let go of this annoying plan and play the game.

What I think we should do: lynch someone today AND give imprints to a limited number of players who we think are town. I don't really care how many, but we should probably not stretch it too far. I think the lynch will be important because it will help with scum hunting later at the very least (if we don't end up lynching scum). It will help the people with night actions know where to look, and just help in general look for scum. Even though there are special mechanics in this game, we shouldn't abandon the things that are universal in a game of mafia.

[elvis_knits]

SC, you never answered my 21:

Perhaps we try a day without imprints and see how we go? Ugh.. that means we're in lylo if we mislynch.

How do you figure this?

[elvis_knits]

Sorry EK, I thought the answer was obvious when iam posted in thread that the mafia didn't have a night kill. I didn't realise this. Normally 4/12 means 2 mislynches and lose. With no NK, it's 4 mislynches and lose.

That's what I thought, but I just wanted to hear you say it to confirm.

The fact is that you did not know that mafia can't NK.

It should be obvious from my posting and mod questions on the first page that I didn't know mafia can't NK either.

This is almost certain proof that we're both town.

There is probably a small chance that a mafia member misread their role PM and thought they could kill. BUT, I happen to think that mafia would know very well what they could and could not do. Or I guess there's a chance that one or both of us faked our misunderstanding.

However, I think the odds are hugely in our favor on this. Neither of us knew that mafia can't NK. Therefore neither of us are mafia. Therefore we should be imprinted, and the town can be reasonably sure we are town. This is a huge advantage to us.

This is not to say that we should be the only ones to be imprinted. I think we should discuss other people too, and maybe imprint others if we feel confident enough.

But I definitely think SC is town. I know I am, but I wouldn't push for myself to be imprinted unless I thought it was proved to the rest of you. Look at the question I asked on the first page. I wanted to know if scum could use their imprint power at the same time as they perform their NK. (When scum don't have a NK if their imprint doesn't give it to them).

Imprint: SerialClergyman

Imprint: elvis_knits

[elvis_knits]

But that's the point -- the scum pm doesn't mention a NK because they don't have one.

I read through the sample PM's but not that closely. I think if I had actually gotten the scum PM I would have read it a little more carefully.

[elvis_knits]

Well, I sort of assumed scum would get a NK to begin with.

Do you think it's possible scum would assume it also even if their PM did not mention it? And that nobody would figure out the truth?

I notice their PM also says they have a QT where they can talk at any time. Do people think it's possible that none of the scum team figured out that they don't have a NK? Or that Iamausername didn't correct them in the QT when they made some mention of NKing?

[elvis_knits]

We're scum buddies, obv.

[elvis_knits]

I can possibly understand you thinking this:

I don't think it is a safe assumption at all that scum figured out they didn't have a night kill

Personally, I think they would figure it out. I think scum would know. Especially since they have a QT where they can daytalk. But, I can allow for the possibility that I am wrong, which is why I answered DN the way I did. Asking questions rather than just beating him into the ground. I don't want to give SC an imprint either if he's scum. For that matter, I don't care if you don't want to give me one. But I think this is possibly a REAL way to give the town an advatage here. I think that scum probably knew they had a NK. So giving me and SC imprints is the least risk to the town. I also don't care if I have to be lynched before endgame if my suggestion is SO controversial. I am banking on people seeing the truth in my hypothesis.

I also understand it looks weird that SC voted to imprint me in his first post and now I'm voting to imprint him. I'm sure he can tell you his reasoning, but I thought it had something to do with him having played with me before. Other than that, I don't know why he chose me. As far as I am concerned it just worked out that way for me, based on how we both seemed oblivious to the scum mechanics. I don't think it should bother anyone unless they really think my original assumption is wrong: that scum would know they can't NK.

It looks like you disagree, VMD, about my assumption. Why? Do you think scum often get mixed up about their killing powers?

[elvis_knits]

Also, my 126 is probably due to my frustration with TheButtonmen.

[elvis_knits]

Well, I do agree that it could have been faked. Those things do sometimes happen, although very very rarely, in my experience. Part of your decision should be depend on the context. Do you think either me or SC were faking and why?

When I read his statement about lylo, it seems obvious that he's assuming scum get NK's. So if he said that to mislead us, it was very crafty. It's not the type of thing that's easy to fake, IMO.

If I am somehow wrong in my hypothesis, I think it would be because scum were somehow very SLOW and hadn't yet realized they don't have a NK this game. I think the chances of faking are pretty slim.

One of the reasons I think it would have come up in the QT is that when I am scum I routinely talk about the other players in the game and who I am scared of and who we should think about NKing at some point. I talk about that type of stuff right off the bat, and I assume other people do also. I also would be PMing the mod questions, especially in a theme game with wierd mechanics. I just think the NK would have come up.

There's a chance it somehow didn't, but I consider the chance sort of slim.

I think I underestimated though how weird it probably looks for me and SC to be voting to imprint each other though. At the time I voted to imprint us, I really didn't care that it looked odd since I thought my conclusion that we were both town was pretty obvious. But I do understand why it might make people a little paranoid.

[elvis_knits]

I think it's a fair question of him.

Why do you disagree with my reasons for imprinting SC and me? Do you think we could be faking or do you think scum are dumb enough not to understand their own kill mechanic?

[elvis_knits]

Who else made that mistake?

[elvis_knits]

You're wrong, Buttonmen. Before iamausername clarified, only SC, me and Deathnote had even posted, and I don't think DN mentioned anything about the NK. So there's no way of knowing what he thought.

[elvis_knits]

Up until I learned that scum can not night kill, I was still for my plan.

I was down for the 'imprint everyone' idea until I heard the fact that Rogues don't have a night kill ability, unless imprinted with it.

But ANYONE can say that after it's been clarified. We need proof that they thought that before it was clarified, and the only people who made posts like that are me and SC. I asked if scum could use their imprint while they made their NK, and SC talked about getting to lylo through NKs.

Anyone else claiming that they didn't know obviously cannot be verified after the fact has been stated in thread.

[elvis_knits]

Again, obviously I am not going to count anything from someone who posted after the mod clarified that scum don't get a NK. That is a null tell.

[elvis_knits]

Why unimprint Elvis, or rather why just Elvis seening as your still imprinting the 11 other players?

I am taking this the opposite approach from everyone else. Instead of imprinting who I think is town, I will unimprint whoever starts appearing scummy. Right now, Elvis is not someone whom I would like to give a power. Doesn't mean he is scum, just means I have doubts as to whether he is town.

And why am I scummy?

And if I'm scummy, why aren't you voting to lynch me?

I think the fact that you're not voting to lynch me, but don't want me imprinted is a big tip off here that you don't actually think I'm scum.

And the fact that you didn't vote to unimprint SC at the same time does not make sense. If you think my reasoning over me and SC is flawed or scummy, then I think you would unimprint both of us. Choosing only me to unimprint doesn't make sense here.

[elvis_knits]

@elvis: What do you think of the manner in which my vote was placed on you? Do you think I am town or scum? Why?

I'm not totally sure of your allignment at the moment.

My gut read of you is this:
I think you're town, but you're playing sort of paranoid, and not necessarily voting for who you think is scum, or not thinking through totally. Like your vote on Buttonmen, which was essentially because you found him annoying and you disliked his plan. While I happen to agree with you, those things don't indicate his allignment, and if you think about it, he probably was trying to break the game for the town. Which suggests he is town. So your vote there was not good.

Now let's look at your vote on me. You had said before that you found me really town, but immediately wondered if that meant I'm a really great scum player tricking you. This kind of thinking can lead to all sorts of bad things -- like lynching players who look town and keeping players who look like scum. It's the "too townie" fallacy. If a player looks town, they probably are. That doesn't mean you shouldn't question anything you disagree with, and change your read accordingly. But you should not automatically distrust a person who looks like town. Otherwise you're making it much harder to find scum. My philosophy is that if someone is scum, they will look like it at some point. And if they're that good that they never look like scum, then they deserve to beat me. I'm not going to start lynching players that look like town just because they might be playing a really great scum game. That will lead to lynching helpful townies and letting obvscum win. I would much rather lose to genius scum than obvscum, if I have to lose!

FWIW, I suck at being scum. I hate playing scum, and I think there is a noticable difference in how I play. I try to play like I do when I'm town and I just can't do it. Here's a link to a game that I played to endgame and won as town, the one I played with SC http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12069

Here's a link to a game that I played to endgame and won as scum. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12330

Those are links to recent games I have played all the way through. You can judge for yourself if you think I play differently as scum and town. You can judge if you think I am some great scum player. Somebody in the game where I was scum told me they think I'm a great scum player. I laughed. I REALLY don't think so, but you can judge for yourself.

But back to your vote on me. I can understand if you disagree with me about my interpretation of the "town slips" that me and SC made. But I'm not sure that it should reverse your read of me entirely. If you think I'm town and I come out with proof that I am town, why should that make you think I am scum?

Overall, my current read of you is that you're paranoid town. But I like that you are aggressive and not afraid to use your vote. You seem like the kind of exciting player that I love to play with, and once you get a bit more confidence in yourself you will not be as paranoid. I find that giving out a little trust is very beneficial. If you have good reason to believe another player is town and give them a little trust you can do a lot of good things. BUT, also, if you're wrong and the player is actually scum, giving them a little room to maneuver often makes them comfortable enough to make some scummy moves. Gives them enough rope to hang themselves. So I don't think it's such an awful risk to trust players that you have good reason to think are town. You have to have faith in yourself to be able to reverse your read if things change.

I'm sorry if that was sort of long and boring...

But I think that a lot of you here don't know me and I find that if I ramble on about my thought process it gives people more insight into how I operate.

I think we need to reach an understanding in this game of how we are going to approach things. We need to agree if we want to lynch and if we want to imprint and such things. Obviously I think we should go with my plan of lynching, while imprinting a few people we think are town, but if that's not the consensus I am fine with that. I just think it's important that we organize and DO SOMETHING! Right now we are all over the place, and most people are not voting for anything.

Everyone needs to say how they feel about lynching and imprinting so we can decide what to do. People also need to say who they think is scummy. It's page 8, we need to organize.

[elvis_knits]

On Elvis & SC
SC seems to get a bit overaggressive over DeathNote's suggested idea to imprint everyone in Post 13, as did Elvis when she voted DeathNote in Post 14. He was just throwing out an idea, and you both overreacted quite a bit. Then Elvis turns around just a few posts later in Post 17 that she likes fast, exciting games and that it really isn't that bad of an idea, but only after SC alluded that it could be okay. This feels like a contradiction to me of her vote of DeathNote.

Starbuck, do not misrep me. I did not vote deathnote for suggesting we imprint everyone. I voted deathnote for suggesting we imprint everyone after I expressed concern that scum might be able to retain more than one power.

vote: Deatnote

Way to ignore my concern about scum maybe being able to retain more than one power.

He completely ignored my point, which would make giving everyone a power very dangerous and much more beneficial to scum. So it's not just that he suggested something anti-town, but he suggested something anti-town AFTER I specifically pointed out that it could be anti-town.

Also, you are misrepping me about how I said I like fast-paced games. Here is the whole of my statement, and my conditional agreement to the "give everyone powers" plan had to be that scum wouldn't retain more than one power.

So if we go with this plan we have to do it on all subsequent days. And only if we are assured scum cannot retain more than one ability.

I agree that it will probably be a clusterfuck of information. I'm not opposed to that necessarily. I like a fast, exciting game, and giving everyone powers will definitely do that. So, it might be good.

But if we want to go a more concervative route I would just give imprints to people we think are town. We can still give a lot out... I would not be opposed to that. I'm not sure I want to give a power role to a player I think is scum, unless there is some reason to think we can test them. And not knowing what our imprint will be or what their will be, this might be difficult.

Starbuck

-- you spent a good deal of time saying how horrible me and SC are for shooting down deathnote's idea. Does this mean you agree with deathnote's idea? Do you think we should give everyone powers when the townies will lose theirs after one use and the scum will retain their powers for the rest of the game? Do you think that deathnote is town and that we are treating him unfairly?

[elvis_knits]

I also am not a fan of someone who just comes out Day 1 saying that "so&so and so&so are scum" just because you don't like their ideas. Elvis does this in Post 47.

This is another misrep. I did not vote deathnote for not liking his idea. I voted him because he suggested an anti-town strategy AFTER I pointed out how such a strategy was anti-town and he ignored my concern.

As for buttonmen, I never voted him because I didn't like his idea. I called him scum because I felt he was lying. Please look at my reasons:

Basically theres a whole lot a scum and not that many town, thus voting is tilted in scum favour, so by randomizing we remove that. Now if we randomly chose a player day 1 and repeatedly imprint them and vote NL until they find scum we have a 66% of winning right now and honestly with a 2-1 town to scum ratio that's a hell of a lot better win % then playing the game straight up.

This is wrong. And scummy.

There are 4 scum and 8 town. You're making it sound like town is in the minority. We are twice as strong at the scum right now.

I was concerned that buttonmen was misrepping the town's power in order to push the town into a plan. I was afraid he was panicking everyone and making it seem like we couldn't win unless we went with his plan. I considered his statement of their being "a whole lot of scum and not many town" to be a lie, and that's why I called him scum.

As things went on I became convinced he was trying to break the game in the town's favor, and have since withdrawn my accusation. I have said several times that I believe he is town.

[elvis_knits]

The last thing I'm not a fan of is how overly insulting and condescending elvis has been to quite a few of players. It seems right now that if we don't go with elvis's way, it's the highway. Remember that this is a mafia game and it does get heated, but it doesn't give you a reason to sit and fling ad hom at everyone that you disagree with.

The only thing I can think of that was insulting was the monkey comment I made about Buttonmen's plan, AND I apologized for it. I never even said buttonmen was a monkey, I said that his plan required that we play like monkeys, something that I do not want to do.

As far as things being my way or the highway, that is definitely not true in the least. I cannot force anyone to do anything. Earlier today I said:

I think we need to reach an understanding in this game of how we are going to approach things. We need to agree if we want to lynch and if we want to imprint and such things. Obviously I think we should go with my plan of lynching, while imprinting a few people we think are town, but if that's not the consensus I am fine with that. I just think it's important that we organize and DO SOMETHING! Right now we are all over the place, and most people are not voting for anything.

Everyone needs to say how they feel about lynching and imprinting so we can decide what to do. People also need to say who they think is scummy. It's page 8, we need to organize.

I'm not going to stop trying to convince people to help me do what I think is best. And perhaps I am slightly obnoxious at times. But it's not my way or the highway. I think we have to agree on something, even if it's not what I want. And that's what I encouraged us all to do earlier today.

[elvis_knits]

Starbuck, please stop misrepping me.

Now, in this last post, you are saying that TheButtonmen is no longer scum in your eyes, but town. How quickly you change your tune.

O RLY? Because I've been saying it for a while now.

Well, when I thought buttonman was misrepping the town's influence (ie, saying there is a lot of scum and not many town sounds like we are in the minority, which is not true), I thought he was scummy.

But I think he is actually trying to win the game (through breaking the game). So that's not scummy.

And this one was just earlier today:

Like your vote on Buttonmen, which was essentially because you found him annoying and you disliked his plan. While I happen to agree with you, those things don't indicate his allignment, and if you think about it, he probably was trying to break the game for the town. Which suggests he is town.

[elvis_knits]

I don't feel I misrepped you at all. That's exactly how it felt when I read it. Also, if you read the rules of the game, you would have known that the rogue actives could retain their powers. It surprises me, even after your blatant posts about reading over the rules carefully, that you admit to not doing so.

Starbuck, I don't think you really read the game that closely.

I knew the scum retained their abilities from reading the rules, but my question was if they could gain more than one ability.

If they keep their first ability, plus gain more the more they are imprinted, that puts town at a significant disadvantage because we cannot have more than one ability at a time. For reference, these are the questions I asked the mod:

Mod: Can scum players gain more than one power? If they are imprinted more than once, will they have access to both imprint powers, and can they use them both in one night or have to choose only one at a time? Also, can scum use a power in the same night that they perform a kill? Or does making a kill prevent them from using a secondary power?

There was plenty of ideas and theories being thrown around at the time of your vote on DeathNote. I agree that not everyone should be imprinted and he sees now why this is a bad idea, but why must it only be after YOU point out that its anti-town or scummy? You are making this situation to be entirely about you, when it's not.

Look, I think it was a good reason to vote him then and I think it's still a good reason. But, even if you think my reason isn't GREAT, what more do you expect from a first page vote? Do you expect me to have a better reason for voting on the first page? Why wouldn't I vote deathnote when he ignores my point about his plan being flawed? His action, to ignore me in favor of pushing his agenda, was inherently scummy.

I really don't understand why you think I am scummy for disliking a plan which you admit is anti-town, from a player who you agree has done some scummy things. You're saying he is reading null to you, but you also admit he's done some scummy things. So, it really makes no sense for you to think I'm scummy. Unless you think deathnote is so pro-town and he's doing all pro-town things, then your attack on me doesn't make much sense.

[elvis_knits]

So I should ignore that completely scummy thing he did because he took it back?

He still is voting to imprint everyone except me. How is that pro-town? He may say that he has abandoned his plan, but he really hasn't since he's still voting like he's trying to make it happen.

[elvis_knits]

Yes you are missing something.

He only claimed to not know scum had a NK after it had been clarified. I have no way of knowing if he thought that when he posted his plan or not. Read his post where he imprints everyone and makes his plan. He says nothing about whether he thinks scum can NK or not, so I don't know what he thought.

Imprint: everyone

Think about it...

There are two ways to go about finding scum, with powers or without. If we go without and not imprint anyone, then we will be relying completely on our cunning to find scummy players via meta, lurking, or whatever other means you use.

If we go with powers, then we will be hoping for town related investigative roles that could help us catch scum. Both ways have its faults and pluses...

I personally like the power root, at least for tonight, as scum hunting can become difficult for me with so many players I do not know. If we are to imprint tonight, we should imprint everyone as town would have twice as many night actions available to them compared to town. We can then claim some results, assuming they help us find scum or confirmed town, and imprint off that. For example, if we imprint everyone and I get a cop/investigative ability that I use on Elvis_knits that flips her town, then we can give her an imprint the next day.

Questions?

[elvis_knits]

I don't think anybody ever answered this post by SC. Anybody who thinks me and SC are scum buddies, I would like you to respond to this post:

Essentially you are saying:

1) Elvis and I are scumbuddies.
2) I decided to obviously imprint my scumbuddy in my first posto f the game (the same one who happens to be the player I've played with most extensively on site.)
3) elvis and I seperately make comments that indicate we don't realise the scum has no night kill but in completely different ways. (This isn't an arranged plan yet, because if it was then elvis could have picked a buddy that didn't decide to imprint her first post to make comments that show the aren't aware of a NK.)
4) Iam clarifies this in thread.
5) Within 40 minutes of that post, elvis realises she could use this to our advantage and asks me why I thought we were in lylo.
6) I

ignore the question for plenty of posts and a day or two

, then elvis pushes the point and asks again, at which point I answer and she reveals her thoughts.

Now - all of that is possible, but I think obviously unlikely.

[elvis_knits]

Starbuck, please answer this post. It was directed at you.

So I should ignore that completely scummy thing he did because he took it back?

He still is voting to imprint everyone except me. How is that pro-town? He may say that he has abandoned his plan, but he really hasn't since he's still voting like he's trying to make it happen.

You are criticising me for not rescinding my imprint on SC and myself. Why would I do that? I'm almost sure he's town. I stand by my theory.

YET, you are not giving Deathnote any problem for failing to unimprint everyone, even after he agreed his plan is bad. At this point, he has admitted his plan is anti-town and yet, he is still voting everyone. And yet, you don't care?

[elvis_knits]

I'm really tired now from Christmas shopping so I don't have the will to quote and comment on everything. I'll put down some of my random thoughts for now, and will probably come back to some things later.

Thoughts on starbuck: every time I play with her I think she's scum (I think I've played with her in more games than twilight, but I dunno which ones), so I'm trying not to be too judgemental about her at the moment. I'm just pointing out where she possibly missed something from reading too fast, or misinterpreted/misunderstood me. As time goes by, I hope to get a better read on her, and see if me and her can reach some common ground. I feel like she is not listening to me at the moment. I do agree though that she is defending deathnote and lewarcher, which is odd.

Lewarcher: hadn't looked at him very much until now since I have been busy feuding with others I think VMD has a point with her line of questioning re: "pages 1-5 mean nothing." It does not seem like he's looking very hard for scum if he can't find anything in 5 pages of a game.

RE: VMD's 265, but I have a slightly different comment about lewarcher saying he doesn't trust players who take the lead on day 1. First of all, reminds me of Starbuck saying I'm trying to control the town and force my will on you all... so it's interesting that lewarcher's comment is similar.

The other things is: Why does it bother anyone that players are being vocal and playing hard and actively trying to hunt scum? Those are all good things! That is what will help us win. If you disagree with a person's conclusion, obviously say so, but do not discourage people from playing the game. If you think a player is taking the lead

in a scummy way

, then yes, I agree you shouldn't trust them. But to distrust anyone who takes the lead? That doesn't make sense to me, and I think it would encourage people to stop scum hunting, to lurk more and do less. That would be very bad for the town.

Discouraging scum hunting is very scummy, IMO.

I mostly see scum being more subtle anyway. I don't usually see scum putting themselves out there and leading the town. Because it's really hard to fake sincere scum hunting, and the more you post and originate ideas the more chance you have of being caught.

[elvis_knits]

Buttonmen makes good point in 267. DN seems to unimprint anyone who people start to talk about as scum, without knowing or understanding the reasons why the person is being attacked.

---

On to lewarcher.

Lew seems to misunderstand the messiah/pug. Part of this may have to do with messiah misnumbering pug's post. I sorted it out. For reference, DN's post is 52 where he presents the all-or-nothing power plan, Pugs' post is 78, and messiah's post is 82.

I agree with pug and messiah here, since DN tried to make us choose to either give everyone powers or nobody, and misrepped me saying I wanted to play without powers. He says he considers any plan to without everyone getting powers to be "without powers." I think this is misleading and pushes the town into an all-or-nothing decision which it does not need to do.

---

lew, you make several comments about my posting which are criticisms of me, but pretty vague, and not things I think actually have a bearing on allignment, although I think you intend them to mean that you find me scummy.

1)

Elvis's post 85: clever point, but not useful. The fog surrounding imprinted roles is the very philosophy of this game. Isn't this perhaps nonconstructive criticism?

I was trying to show why buttonmen's plan wouldn't work. I think that's pretty constructive, if I can stop a line of planning which will ultimately go nowhere.

2)

Elvis 123-124: WIFOM on SC's account. Weird.
Elvis 126: glorious WIFOM.
Elvis 129: declared WIFOM out of frustration.

You really think it's WIFOM for me to assume that scum would have read and understood their role PM and known they did not get a NK in this game without getting an imprint? Please explain.

3)

Elvis-Starbuck 198-199: Elvis seems clumsy as she tries to answer Starbuck's FoS on her. Last two lines lack of any good argument and try to invoke self-conscious town alignment. Noise, mainly.

I need more explanation on this too, because I want to know what is clumsy, and if you think a "clumsy" answer is scummy and why.

And why do you think I am "invokign self-conscious town allignment" rather than actually being town alligned?

4)

Elvis 231: did you? You do, than I will post my comments about SC's options list.

Why do you want me to comment before you do in a question directed to people who think me and SC are scum? What is the point?

231 is addressed to people who think me and SC are scum buddies (I am obviously NOT one of those people). 231 shows how convoluted, ridiculous and improbable the idea is that me and SC are buddies. I obviously agree with SC, if you couldn't figure that out.

I want people to defend how they think it is reasonable to assume me and SC are buddies pulling a gambit.

[elvis_knits]

1) I'm assuming imprints are power roles. Which power roles are available, I don't know. You think this is too much of a crazy assumption and I shouldn't speculate on it?

2) But what do you think? You don't think that scum would read and understand their role PM and understand their kill mechanic?

3) I'm wondering if clumsy is the right word, since it doesn't really fit IMO. Can you explain a bit more what you don't like about those statements or use a different word?
Clumsy usually means awkward or uncoordinated. So when you say I am clumsy, I think you mean that I am not explaing myself well, or not making sense.

4) I already gave you my comment. I agree with all of what SC said. Me and him being scum buddies is ridiculous. This is the post again:

.. I will probably never have a way of knowing anotherp layer's alignment, so any time I vote to imprint I'm hoping they are town. But them being a good player is also a necessary condition to them being imprinted. Because a bad townie with an imprint isnot very good for the town, but a bad scum with an imprint is still very bad for the town. So the ability level of the player imprinted makes a difference.

Ok, so you're saying the scheme was cooked up in the 40 minutes between Iam making that qualification and elvis asking me why I thought we would be in lylo after 1 night? It's possible, i guess, but I'd still say unlikely.

Essentially you are saying:

1) Elvis and I are scumbuddies.
2) I decided to obviously imprint my scumbuddy in my first posto f the game (the same one who happens to be the player I've played with most extensively on site.)
3) elvis and I seperately make comments that indicate we don't realise the scum has no night kill but in completely different ways. (This isn't an arranged plan yet, because if it was then elvis could have picked a buddy that didn't decide to imprint her first post to make comments that show the aren't aware of a NK.)
4) Iam clarifies this in thread.
5) Within 40 minutes of that post, elvis realises she could use this to our advantage and asks me why I thought we were in lylo.
6) I

ignore the question for plenty of posts and a day or two

, then elvis pushes the point and asks again, at which point I answer and she reveals her thoughts.

Now - all of that is possible, but I think obviously unlikely.

So, anyone who thinks me and SC are scum buddies should be able to defend how this is at all likely to happen, or present a different set of events that they think could have happened.

Anyone who is putting me and SC high on their scum list should be answering this post. Since you, lew, have FOSed me and SC, you should answer it.

[elvis_knits]

So, it's page 12 and nobody has more than 2 votes toward a lynch, and I don't think we've gotten a decent bandwagon going all game. I don't know what most people think on the idea of lynching vs. no-lynching, or if we should imprint or not and who/how many.

/wrists

[elvis_knits]

For what regards the answer to your question, elvis, I am not sure if you are both scum (see below): it is true that sc opening the very game with the imprint would have been crazy. But he surely had an answer ready, he could have said that he was just random imprinting as he waited for the game to take-off... It's a weapon that can work both ways.

Anyway, I get scumvibes from SC, I find his posts too aggressive towards Starbuck, and I think that his attempt to remind everyone of DN's scumminess without even trying to interact directly with DN is also pretty scummy.

Why is aggressiveness scummy? I don't think that it is, so I want to know why you think it's bad.

What do you think of DN?

I will make it clear: I think that he is scum, and this is more than a FoS, this is in fact my vote. The fact that I FoS elvis does not mean that I would vote her right now (she is attacking me and therefore we interact a lot). I can accept a scenario with SC as scum and elvis as town, where the apparent (but possible) buddying interaction is a mere coincidence.

I'm not trying to attack you at this point, I'm trying to understand you better, and point out where I disagree with you and why.

fine, clumsy is not the right word. Sorry (

ESL!!!

). What I meant is that if the best argumentation is "How can I do different than this, since I know I am town?", it's like there's no argumentation at all.

I never said that though.

Starbuck was saying that I was being overbearing and arguing my point of view too forcefully.

Do you agree and do you think that is scummy?

My answer, the last few sentences which you dislike are this:

I'm not going to stop trying to convince people to help me do what I think is best. And perhaps I am slightly obnoxious at times. But it's not my way or the highway. I think we have to agree on something, even if it's not what I want. And that's what I encouraged us all to do earlier today.

I reject the idea that being aggressive or forcefull in your opinions is scum tell. I rather think that

criticising

someone for having strong opinions, is scummy.

[elvis_knits]

Woooo farside!

I like Plum's post. Everything is very reasonable. I am totally fine with her viewpoint on me imprinting me and SC -- the gist of it that I got is that she can see how I would feel that way and that I probably am right, but it's not enough of a sure thing for her to feel comfortable going with it. That is the sort of reaction I was expecting from people who didn't want to go with it. Because my reasoning does make sense. I happen to think that the chances of it being a gambit or a PM misunderstanding are low enough for me to take a chance on SC, but I can understand if others do not think the chances are quite low enough and they would rather be conservative. I understand that. Part of why I am willing to make that leap of faith on SC is probably because I had the same misunderstanding as he did and since I did it as a town, it more makes me think he did under the same circumstances. But none of the rest of you were in my position, and you are in the position of having to make a small leap on two people whereas I am only making it on one. So I can understand it being a little harder for others.

Plum's reaction seems pro-town to me.

Some of the other reactions I got from people have not seemed pro-town. They have seemed like panicked attempts to stop the town from confirming two town players.

Here's my current thoughts on people:

ALASKA (SerialClergyman) - town (you all know why I think so!)
ARIZONA (Starbuck) - scum (but she always reads like that to me)
COLORADO (Messiah) - leaning scum (hasn't originated ideas, follower)
FLORIDA (Limerickx) - town (his conservative plan seems pro-town, but I want to see him scum hunting more)
GEORGIA (Plum) - town (come on, everything she says makes sense)
HAWAII (TheButtonmen) - town (breaking strategy seems designed to help town, no matter how much we butt heads)
IOWA (lewarcher82) - neutral (I have a hard time reading ESL players because sometimes I dismiss scummy things as language problems, looking forward to getting a better read on the replacement)
KANSAS (jasonT1981 farside22) - null (jason posted nothing)
MONTANA (Pug89) - neutral (posted some good things, feel like pug is sitting on the sidelines a little though, gives me the feeling of maybe letting townies fight? I think pug and messiah have agreed a lot which worries me slightly)
NEVADA (DeathNote) - scum (Anti-town all game. I looked into his meta and saw the game where he was recently modkilled... makes me think he is not a very responsible player and prone to impulsive plays no matter his allignment. He may look scummy no matter what, but the things he is pushing for are so tilted to scum's favor that I think he's scum.)
OHIO (Vala Mal Doran) - neutral/town (some of her votes have not been great like on buttonmen, but overall I do have a gut town read on her)
VIRGINIA (elvis_knits) - town!

[elvis_knits]

@ farside, I've been over all the issues surrounding me and SC, so I think you will see my explanation in thread the more you read. If you still want me to respond after you finish reading, I'll say it again.

[elvis_knits]

I actually am not in favor of policy lynches, and I am not suggesting one on you deathnote. I think that you are impulsive no matter your allignment, which suggests you're probably a little more transparent as scum.

Fresh ideas and radical thinking are great, but the ideas you are bringing to the table favor scum. The fact that you never voted to unimprint everyone, supports the idea that you would still like to imprint as many people as possible. And the people you are unimprinting doesn't seem like you're doing it because YOU think they're scum, but because other people are talking like that person might be scum. So anyone who gets a little heat you unimprint them. Shows you're not thinking for yourself and are just following the pack in terms of who to suspect. That is scummy. Nobody is trying to policy lynch you.

[elvis_knits]

How is that a policy lynch?

[elvis_knits]

How is that a policy lynch?

Because I know how this will turn out. My tactic right now is called, appeal to emotion.

You realize that's a scum tactic, right?

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... to_emotion

[elvis_knits]

mod, in the VC's, could you just post the cheat sheet matching the players with their doll name, because it's hard for me to remember who is who in the votecounts?

[elvis_knits]

I'll respond to other things in a bit (I think farside may have asked me some Q's), but I just wanted to get this out before I slog through the thread:

I am more sure SC is town at this point.

If he were scum who happened to get lucky with me confirming him in error, I doubt he would go around suggesting he gets lynched first in an effort to prove me town.

Well, according to his plan, he doesn't need to die if DN flips scum. So unless he's DN's scum buddy, then he MUST be town who really really believes DN is scum. There is no way he would say what he's saying if he's scum and DN is not. Because if SC is scum and knows DN is town, he would not offer up his life to lynch deathnote, knowing he is condemning himself to death

Possible scenarios are 1) DN scum, SC scum; and 2)SC town thinks DN is scum

I think it is unlikely that DN is his scum buddy, for their interaction the whole game.

Therefore, I think possibility 2 is much more likely.

SC is town who VERY MUCH believes DN is scum. Nothing else makes sense.

[elvis_knits]

Elvis saying 8-4 is unwinnable in regular mafia seems really, really incorrect.

I didn't say that, buttonmen did. Saying 8-4 is unwinnable without power roles. I'm the one who said that was wrong.

VMD voting Buttonmen, however, seems like a town tell. Imprint: VMD and Imprint: Buttonmen. I think we can gain valuable information from the two of them being power roles. The way I see it, they can't both be scum, so in my mind I'm imprinting one guaranteed (imo) townie, possibly two.

How is VMD voting buttonmen a town tell? She says she didn't vote him because she thought he was scum. I sympathize with her reason, which was frustration, but I don't think it's a town tell at all. I have excused her vote based on the overall feel of her play, but this is not a town tell at all.

Also, I have a problem with you wanting to imprint both on the thinking that they can't both be scum. Even if you think there's one guaranteed town there, and possibly two, it sounds like you think there's a good chance one is scum. I don't think you should be imprinting anyone you think has a good/reasonable chance of being scum. It seems like the only thing you're sure of is that they aren't both scum. So what if one is scum and one is town? 1:1 is hardly worth it to us, since scum will retain their power for the rest of the game and town will not.

I think we have to be much more careful with imprints than this.

Imprint: Reckoner. I'm the only person I know isn't a rogue at this point, though I have hunches (VMD).

I'm not comfortable with you imprinting people because of hunches. I need to atleast hear more reasoning about why you feel this strongly about VMD.

I'm not a fan of e_k telling us she sucks at being scum and then trying to give us her scum meta in 182. I am highly suspicious of someone who tries to say they suck at playing scum. It's like when I used to go on beach trips with my grandma as a kid, and she'd say she sucked/didn't know how to play certain board games/card games, then would school us all. I KNOW YOUR TRICKS, GRAND-- I MEAN, ELVIS!

VMD repeatedly asked if anyone knew my meta and seemed paranoid that I was some awesome scum player because of my join date. That's really bad reasoning for suspecting someone, especially because I know that I do suck at being scum. But you don't have to take my word for it, and I wouldn't expect you to. That's why I linked to two recent games where I played to endgame, one as town, one as scum. This was so you could decide for yourself. I'm not trying to trick you, I'm trying to give you a chance to make up your own mind.

Oh, great. Here's Starbuck's catchup post. *sigh* Nothing to really comment on there.

...

Nothing to say about Starbuck at all? She wrote a whole lot the one day she was posting here. And you have NOTHING to say about her? Then you go on to say she's null until SC attacks her, so you are leaning town on her? She put out a lot of info, and you're talking about none of it. I would be fine with you having a town read of her if you actually had a reason. But you're making no comment on her. You have nothing to say about her, but she's town?

If she's scum, you're her buddy.

Also, equating Starbuck defense of DN to me and SC is not a fair comparison. We have a specific reason to think the other is town. Starbuck has no reason to think DN is town. In fact I think she put him at neutral but is defending him. That doesn't make sense.

---

Overall, with reckoner's catch-up post, my major problem is that I see a lack of reasoning for imprinting VMD, and for defending Starbuck.

Either of these actions could be okay if he had reasoning that made sense, but he doesn't. Reckoner seems to be imprinting VMD based on her vote on buttonmen (which was a vote for someone she didn't think was scum). Reckoner seems to be defending Starbuck for no real reason.

[elvis_knits]

Some of the other reactions I got from people have not seemed pro-town. They have seemed like panicked attempts to stop the town from confirming two town players.

Okay now that I pointed out the role and how it was written to the scum and how scum mods do not automatically put in their role PM's that scum have a kill between them how do you figure this clears you and SC?

I don't think I've ever gotten a scum PM that doesn't specifically lay out the night actions. Every time I have been able to kill, my PM has said something like "each night your team can target one player for the night kill."

I haven't seen PM's that don't mention the NK if the scum have one.

If you have seen this, I'm interested to see it.

[elvis_knits]

On Starbuck: I know people tend to see her as scum since I have experienced this myself. I have said that I don't want to judge her too quickly because of this, but that doesn't mean she gets a free pass. I still want to discuss her points, and try to decide her allignment. I question why you aren't really looking at her comments and are saying "nothing to see here!" And if you think DN is scum, why you aren't questioning Starbuck's defense of DN.

On VMD: why do you see her vote on buttonmen as a town tell?

[elvis_knits]

Also, equating Starbuck defense of DN to me and SC is not a fair comparison. We have a specific reason to think the other is town. Starbuck has no reason to think DN is town.

You're still ignoring the fact that your and SC's obvtown reads on each other are based on weak reasons.

No, it is not a weak reason. The odds of SC being scum who didn't know his NK mechanic are very low, IMO. I think it's massively unlikely. And his behavior since has convinced me further that he is town. I don't know why a scumSC would be making a plan that includes his death if he's wrong about DN. Unless they're scum buddies, and I don't think that's likely based on interactions.

If you think me and Sc are scum, you need to comment on this:

Ok, so you're saying the scheme was cooked up in the 40 minutes between Iam making that qualification and elvis asking me why I thought we would be in lylo after 1 night? It's possible, i guess, but I'd still say unlikely.

Essentially you are saying:

1) Elvis and I are scumbuddies.
2) I decided to obviously imprint my scumbuddy in my first posto f the game (the same one who happens to be the player I've played with most extensively on site.)
3) elvis and I seperately make comments that indicate we don't realise the scum has no night kill but in completely different ways. (This isn't an arranged plan yet, because if it was then elvis could have picked a buddy that didn't decide to imprint her first post to make comments that show the aren't aware of a NK.)
4) Iam clarifies this in thread.
5) Within 40 minutes of that post, elvis realises she could use this to our advantage and asks me why I thought we were in lylo.
6) I

ignore the question for plenty of posts and a day or two

, then elvis pushes the point and asks again, at which point I answer and she reveals her thoughts.

Now - all of that is possible, but I think obviously unlikely.

[elvis_knits]

Messiah, why do you think scumSC would offer to have us lynch him?

[elvis_knits]

If SC is scum, then his whole team has to be bussing him, because my theory is getting no support. I would think that if he's scum, be would have either said my theory was crap, or that he would agree with me to confirm himself and atleast one/some of his scum team would help him try to push his ideas through. If his whole team is just going to buss him then he should have never agreed with me to try to confirm himself. And don't forget the scum can daytalk. Their movements should be coordinated. In fact, I think a few people had disagreed with me BEFORE SC even posted on the topic. So if he's scum he had to know he was walking into a hornets nest. I doubt he would do it.

The lack of support for anyone indicates that we're not scum.

Because if we're both town, we are very dangerous to the scum team. Two confirmed town would narrow their lynch pool considerably and possibly make sure scum never get an imprint. At that point, they would probably lose, so they have to band together and discredit us. They cannot allow anyone to be confirmed town, let alone two people on day1.

Notice the amount of paranoia that surrounds me and SC. Some of it I think is well-intentioned, but notice how everyone is against us. Meanwhile we have Starbuck defending DN and lewarcher (both for essentially no reason), reckoner replaces lew archer and defends starbuck (for meta reasons while refusing to even comment on anything she's said). Interesting how the allegiance between starbuck and lewarcher carried over to reckoner. Axis of evil right there.

[elvis_knits]

Town slip =/= twisted logic

Reckoner, answer my 363

[elvis_knits]

Well, SC, both you and me have wanted DN dead since page 1, so it would be reasonable to atleast feel a little more townie about us if DN flips scum. The fact that nobody even wants to admit that we

probably

aren't scum with DN should be a sign.

It's unfortunate that some people who I think are probably town are as opposed to everything we say as the scum are.

[elvis_knits]

Elvis - not one person feeling out whether any of my lynch DN then me type plans is a good idea and all of them being rejected out of hand suggests to me that DN is scum for the same reason you just came to your elvis and sc are town conclusion.

I can't speak for everyone, but the reason that I reject your plan has nothing to do with not wanting to lynch DN, it's because of the ridiculous "If I'm town than all of my reads are 100% correct and you should base all of your decisions on those instead of your own reads" thing.

He's not saying that if he's town he's 100% correct.

I'm telling you I have a read of her as town. If I am killed and confirmed town myself, that means she went to a lot of effort to try to confirm a townie and you can be sure that my read of her is well-intentioned - both of these things make her more likely to be town.

He's saying that if he's town then you know he didn't say all this stuff with a scum agenda. And he knows me as a player, so he should have a good read of me. So you should just take what he says more seriously and stop with the paranoia.

OBV you should go by your own reads too, but if SC died and was town, that wouldn't influence you at all?

God, SC, I feel like we're Thelma and Louise.

[elvis_knits]

Page one doesn't usually bring a lot of bussing.

[elvis_knits]

This is not the first time that people refuse to answer questions posed by other players, insisting that the asker answer the question first or explain why he is asking.

WTF.

THIS IS LAME.

WHY CAN'T PEOPLE ANSWER A QUESTION?

[elvis_knits]

Messiah having 5 votes is mind boggling to me.

[elvis_knits]

^^ I mean 5 votes to imprint

[elvis_knits]

Buttonman posted three times without answering SC's question, and now you want SC to answer his own question first?

That destroys the purpose of a question.

And I don't know why someone would refuse to answer a simple question, or why someone else would ask the asker to answer before the answerer even does it.

[elvis_knits]

No, but you made no comment about buttonmen, so I had no way to know you wanted him to answer first. You didn't say, "oh, interesting question, SC, I want to know what buttonmen thinks, but I also want to know what you would answer to your own question." The way you said it just turned attention to SC without mentioning buttonmen.

[elvis_knits]

I don't find Messiah that town. I think he's been reactionary and not originating ideas, following other people's ideas and playing it safe. (I mentioned this a little, but haven't talked too much about it).

I'm also suspicious because people don't really seem to have much reason for putting Messiah to imprint. It's like "I have a town read of him," with very little explanation from everyone voting him.

[elvis_knits]

Well, VMD I also have a town read on despite some dodgy moves, so I won't fight VMD getting an imprint. However, reckoner is saying her vote on buttonmen is a towntell... which is like absolutely wrong. So I'm not totally fond of all the votes on VMD, but I don't think it would be horrible to give her an imprint.

I do not care about trying to clear myself at this point. If you people can't see it, then you are either scum or nothing I say or do will convince you. Judge me for yourself, you shouldn't need my convincing.

Regarding buttonmen, I agree he is probably town, and I think he's the safest person besides me and SC to imprint.

[elvis_knits]

It's not WIFOM if you think one of the options has a much better chance of being true.

I realize there is always a chance I'm wrong, I've said so from the beginning, I just think the odds are really in favor of what I think.

And SC's behavior toward me since my original theory has only increased how sure I am.

At this point I wish I had kept my realization to myself because I could have just voted to imprint him and known secretly that he is town without alienating everyone. The thing that really sucks most now is that not only do people not want to imprint either of us, is that people aren't really listening to us. Losing the influence of two town players in a game where 1/3 is scum, is like, really bad. Hopefully as the game progresses though we can look back at the reactions to my theory about me and SC and find the scum easier.

[elvis_knits]

However, reckoner is saying her vote on buttonmen is a towntell...

Um, I retracted that on the last page.

I still don't understand why you ever thought that in the first place though.

[elvis_knits]

Well, I'm a fan of scum/town lists, but that's not even what you were asked. You were asked if you think any of the people voting to imprint you are scum.

[elvis_knits]

I <3 post 450. So much win on it. When the guys posts stuff like that I wonder why nobody else thinks he's town.

I almost posted earlier about how certain people are represented repeatedly on all the high imprint vote-geters, but lost the will since I felt like nobody cares.

What I was going to say is slightly different than what SC has said (but arriving at the same point I guess).

Of the three people at 5 imprint votes, buttonmen makes the most sense to me, so I'm not looking at his voters as closely. Now let's look at the other two wagons.

Ohio (VMD)(5) - Nevada(DN), Florida(Limerick), Arizona(starbuck), Ohio(VMD), Colorado (MEssiah)
Colorado (Messiah)(5) - Nevada(DN), Ohio(VMD), Colorado(Messiah), Iowa(Reckoner), Florida(Limerick)

Notice they have almost all the same people on both imprint wagons.
DN, VMD, Messiah, Limerick are all the same. With Starbuck or Reckoner to round out the bunch.

It just seems weird to me that it's all the same people voting for each other here.

ANYWAY, that was my take on the matter earlier today, but perhaps SC's analysis that takes into account the buttonmen wagon is better.

I especially like these points by SC:
1) DN (The guy we are agreeing to hang by his neck), is voting all the people who look like they'll get imprinted.

2) The people who started the wagon on DN: plum, elvis, pug, are nowhere on the wagons to imprint the top vote getters.

3)And Plum, elvis, pug all have like nobody voting to imprint them.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.....

[elvis_knits]

I just had a great idea...

Let's launch a counter offensive!

imprint pug; imprint plum

[elvis_knits]

AH HA!

LOOK WHO WAS SCUM!

:VINDICATION:

[elvis_knits]

I just be mindless and just listen to EK and SC.

This would be good, farside

[elvis_knits]

WTF...........................

CAN PEOPLE STOP VOTING SC ALREADY?

If HE F-ING GETS LYNCHED BEFORE I GET A CHANCE TO READ THROUGH THE LAST FEW PAGES I WILL BE RAGE

[elvis_knits]

Elvis, pug, plum - vote me.

I need to flip to convince the remaining town members that my pleas are real, and we're in serious danger of letting the scum get a quick imprint.

Really?

I really don't want to though.

You know they will not care when you flip town and still keep up with this same BS.

We need to

vote starbuck

This is really important people (putting capslock back on!):

WHATEVER YOU THINK OF ME AND SC, HOWEVER PARANOID YOU ARE, HOWEVER MUCH YOU CANNOT STOP SAYING WIFOM, PLEASE LOOK AT DEATHNOTE (KNOWN SCUMBAG) AND LOOK WHO WAS PROTECTING HIM! VOTE STARBUCK FOR GREAT JUSTICE!

The simple truth here is that, yes, scum do buss, but they are FAR more likely to protect each other. When you lynch a scumbag, you do not attack the people who pushed all day for scumbag's lynch (a busser wouldn't even push all day for the lynch, they might be wishy washy and come on at the end). You attack the people who fought the lynch!

Vote starbuck

Vote Starbuck

VOTE STARBUCK

[elvis_knits]

If starbuck flips town, then we look at other ties to DN, including SC. We weigh that new evidence with other evidence of scummy behavior and arrive at a new conclusion.

[elvis_knits]

Also, the DN lynch should be a lesson that people who suggest anti-town plans, refuse to see the error, and continue to push a scum agenda...

ARE SCUM.

farside is saying she has a simpler thought about imprinting and the plans and such. But, you know what is the simplest plan of all?

Lynch the people who look like scum.

Lynch the people who protected scum.

[elvis_knits]

2.) Really? Because I seem to recall being one of the players that started the wagon on DN.

I went back and checked on this and you are correct that you voted DN early, so perhaps some town points there. But then you abandoned DN to vote SC on the back of Starbuck's accusations (I think you were riding Starbuck coattails there).

You did come back to the DN wagon eventually when his death became inevitable. But when a scumbag's death passes the point of no return like that, I don't consider any votes to help finish him off to be necessarily pro-town.

Overall interaction with DN is neutral at best.

[elvis_knits]

I'm doing a catalogue of people's reactions to DN's plan... and the more I read I am starting to think that Messiah is not a DN buddy. He WAS one of the people who kept mentioning that DN was scummy even when others look like they were purposely avoiding.

Feeling better about Messiah.

[elvis_knits]

Catalogue of the responses to DN's scumbag gameplan from page 1:

1)

Are you trying to pull a fast one?

If scum EVER get a majority of imprints, they will forever keep those imprints - meaning if we give a role to everyone today, all the scum players will have a role for the rest of the game.

2)

vote: Deatnote

3)

@DeathNote: Do you still feel that a mass-imprint is a good idea given the information we've received since your last post?

4)

I was down for the 'imprint everyone' idea until I heard the fact that Rogues don't have a night kill ability, unless imprinted with it.

(No actual mention of deathnote, only of plan)

5)

The imprint everybody plan would certainly result in an exciting night, but there is no way to tell how that would turn out. We don't know what powers will be given (except possibly a killing power) and this early in the game determining who is scum can be difficult. On the other hand, imprinting everyone would give us a lot to go on the next day, but if scum get a killing role they can continue to use it because the potential pool of players to be imprinted with it will be everyone.

(Again, no mention of deathnote, only of plan)

6)

@DN: Let's say we go with imprinting everyone. How many townies do you think need to be confirmed in the night for it to be worth giving scum powers indefinitely? I don't think confirming one townie is worth it at all.

7)Buttonemen - nothing re: DN's plan (maybe later, I didn't ISO him, but not at first, he was just pushing his breaking strat)

8)

Anyway. It's no good imprinting everybody (well, that's partly under my preconceived notion that the imprint-gains are balanced such that the balance of power remains roughly the same as with no imprints and that to gain an edge on the odds we have to imprint more town than scum proportional to the town/scum ratio). And that means we try to give out multiple imprints but not to people we suspect.

(late arrival, votes DN in this same post... did I mention plum is town?)

9)

SC seems to get a bit overaggressive over DeathNote's suggested idea to imprint everyone in Post 13, as did Elvis when she voted DeathNote in Post 14. He was just throwing out an idea, and you both overreacted quite a bit.

On DeathNote

I definitely don't like his pressure of trying to make everyone choose between either one of his plans.

I've played with DeathNote before and it very much seems like he was just trying to get ideas out there. I'm not getting a completely scummy feeling from him.

10)

Pages 1-5: Nothing! Setup-related paranoia. My comment is: if we wanna play, let us trust the Mod. Imprinting rules surely make this game enough balanced.

(Doesn't even mention any plans, let alone DN, "not touching that with ten foot pole")
(lew became reck)

11)Farside: replaces in and says almost nothing about DN, never mentions his plan. Focuses almost entirely on me and SC.

DN: is the first person to make me want to smack my head via post 172 - congrats! Okay now that my sarcasm is out of the way. How on earth do you say that someone is not scum but not town either? LOL

[elvis_knits]

So obviously defending DN and his plan is the scummiest move there. We have:

Starbuck

Then I think the people who ignored DN entirely or addressed the plan without talking about DN, are much more suspicious than people who asked DN direct questions.

These people are:
Limerick
Pug
Buttonmen
lew
farside

But we can probably eliminate buttonmen for breaking strategy, etc. And I tend to think we can eliminate Pug since pug was not part of the crazy incestuous imprint voters from yesterday. But pug may be an alternate.

drumroll please!

The scum are:

Starbuck
limerick
lew
farside

Oh no. That's four, and there's only three left. Well, 3 out of 4 there are probably scum.

[elvis_knits]

I love EK trying to make a list like that but you forgot about VMD and all in which SC did point out her defending DN as well. So yeah it's things like that that I believe VMD and EK to be scum together.
I know outting all your scum buddies is a no, no EK but please if your going to follow's someone else's logic at least make sure you dont' forget anyone.

See, the thing is I'm not trying to make my analysis fit any preconceived notions. So I don't mind if it doesn't match up exactly with SC's imprint-orama-remix. Both our analysis are tools to help find scum. Even a good analysis probably doesn't nail all scumbags. If it catches a few then it does its job.

Perhaps it would be good to see who figures highest on both those scum list analyses and go from there.

[elvis_knits]

I know Elvis has said that she always views me as scum, but I feel as though she's just using that as an excuse.

I actually was trying to suspend judgement on you because of this. I never said "I always think you're scum, so that's why I think you're scum now!" I said I always think you're scum, so I don't want to jump to the same conclusion just because I find you scummy. For some reason we always seem to see things differently, and not like I say black and you say white. It's like I say black and you say dishwasher.

Regardless, I am not suspecting you because of our meta history here. I think you're scum for defending deathnote, known scum.

[elvis_knits]

Starbuck imprinting farside is totally weird.

post 580 she says nothing about farside except welcome and states her at the end of the post as the person she most wants to imprint. Reason?

Her other posts have a little QFT over farside's SC-hatred. Starbuck says she doesn't like farside's 565.

Then she imprints farside.

It doesn't seem like enough of a reason to imprint someone, especially when she doesn't only have positive things to say about farside.

[elvis_knits]

In closing to my ever so truncated batch of posts:

If the hammer falls, no one is getting imprinted again. I'm well aware some of you think thats a feature, I personally would regard it as a bug. I don't want our first experiance with imprints to be when we are close to the wire numbers wise.

This is a bad argument.

If we lynch without imprinting and people wish we had imprinted, we can just no-lynch the next day and go right to night. There is nothing lost by lynching without imprinting, and everything to gain (as we will have another flip to look at).

In fact, imprinting before a lynch is pretty stupid. What happens if the flip were to change who we wanted to imprint? It would be too late.

This is the same BS buttonmen threw at SC for hammering Deathnote, since it prevented us from having imprints last night.

SO WHAT?

The night isn't really lost to us because we can no-lynch and go directly to night whenever we want. All SC did was prevent us from imprinting without information. All he did was give us the information of the deathnote flip to work with.

This argument by buttonmen is wrong and misleading.

[elvis_knits]

Starbuck imprinting farside is totally weird.

post 580 she says nothing about farside except welcome and states her at the end of the post as the person she most wants to imprint. Reason?

Her other posts have a little QFT over farside's SC-hatred. Starbuck says she doesn't like farside's 565.

Then she imprints farside.

It doesn't seem like enough of a reason to imprint someone, especially when she doesn't only have positive things to say about farside.

-Points up at post 597 by Starbuck addressing that exact issue-

So?

Her defense is she feels farside is pro-town.

Still no compelling reason.

[elvis_knits]

So?

Her defense is she feels farside is pro-town.

Still no compelling reason.

Her imprinting someone she feels is pro-town is weird?

For no compelling reason.

Now starbuck says farside is scumhunting.

I disagree. For the most part she's just been arguing with me and SC and saying WIFOM a bunch of times. Recently she has begun to look at VMD. That's all I've seen.

I'm actually sort of surprised farside voted for Starbuck. She went from repeating "elvis and SC are scum, everything they say is crap sandwich (including how starbuck is scum)... and elvis is buddies with VMD" to "Look how vmd and starbuck are connected to deathnote! vote starbuck."

[elvis_knits]

buttonmen, answer my 601

[elvis_knits]

The night isn't really lost to us because we can no-lynch and go directly to night whenever we want. All SC did was prevent us from imprinting without information. All he did was give us the information of the deathnote flip to work with.

The information he's been oh so sure of from the start.

So why am I getting beat over the head for my supposed defense of DeathNote when that's all Elvis and SC have been doing for each other? Since page 1, I might add.

I'd really appreciate an answer to that question from people other than Elvis and SC.

1) Because deathnote was scum

2) Because there was good reason to think he was scum, and you "didn't see it."

As for me and SC, he made a town tell, so that is why I am defending him.

[elvis_knits]

buttonmen, answer my 601

It's a statement of your opinon not a question, what do you want answered?

Why do you/did you think that we should imprint before seeing the flip?

The flip gives us more information on who to imprint, and the chance to imprint is not lost to us since we can no-lynch and go to night any time we want.

Why would you prefer to imprint before getting extra info?

[elvis_knits]

Well if starbuck flips town that will change things.

She can be indignant and angry at me all she wants, but I didn't lynch her for her meta, I lynched her for defending deathnote. In fact, I think it best that me and Starbuck try not to play another game together at this point since she obviously finds me as frustrating as I find her. Which sucks since I like her on a personal level, and it seems like we like a lot of the same things (since we pick the same theme games to play), but it seems like we don't enjoy each other in games. I wish we could get along, Starbuck!

[elvis_knits]

If starbuck flips town, I think we should discuss and imprint a few people (as many as we feel comfortable), and no-lynch and go to night.

I'm perfectly aware that I will never get an imprint in this game if starbuck flips town. That doesn't matter. And I don't think SC should either. That's fine.

[elvis_knits]

People I might vote to imprint are:

Plum
Messiah
Buttons
VMD
Pug

The rest I would probably not vote to imprint.

[elvis_knits]

Elvis, I just want to say that if you really are town that you may want to start rethinking your bias of always viewing someone as scum. I really don't know what I did to make you always assume that I am. I'm barely ever scum and my Wiki can prove that.

It's just something to think about.

I'm not trying to be rude in anyway, just trying to give advice.

Starbuck,

You continue to misunderstand me.

I always think you're scum. I know this, and I know it's not possible for you to always be scum. I also know I have mislynched you before. So I was trying to judge you differently, because apparently we always misunderstand each other (because you never seem to understand me either, you always think I'm scum too btw). I lynched you today not because of any meta issues we may have with each other. I lynched you today because you had the strongest ties to Deathnote as far as I could tell. It had nothing to do with our meta issues.

[elvis_knits]

As much as you probably don't believe it, I really didn't feel you are scum. You have done scummy things, and I didn't feel comfortable imprinting you because you are so buddy buddy with SC, but my vote would never have gone to you.

Uhm, I think you did vote me though.

[elvis_knits]

SC, if starbuck does not flip town, I think the best bet is to imprint some town people and hope they either find scum or investigate us innocent. Then we go from there.

[elvis_knits]

Typo...

You know what I mean

God too much Christmas shopping today

[elvis_knits]

I almost, almost thought about asking for a replacement do to the maryter attitude from both of them.

Me too. I can't stand people who go out of their way to make mafia games unenjoyable for the rest of the people that are playing.

Starbuck, this is totally out of line. If I've made the game unenjoyable for you, I'm sorry, but I didn't do it on purpose. Please realize you've made the game just as horrible for me as I have for you. Who is being the martyr now?

And as for farside... she replaced INTO this, so I don't know how she didn't know what she was getting into.

Can we not take this game so personally? GOD.

[elvis_knits]

Starbuck is a really poor sport.

And I know I shouldn't say it. Because I just said we shouldn't take this so personally. But I really resent her implying I'm intentionally ruining the game and trying to make the game unenjoyable for people.

Seriously.

That pisses me off.

Starbuck, if you're town you should be trying to tell us who you think is scum before the lynch scene is posted. Not using your time to villify me. Honestly, if you think that I am "going out of my way to make the game unenjoyable for people" then you should report me to the mod, report me to mith and never play with me again. Because that would be a horrible thing for anyone to do. And you shouldn't throw that type of stuff around.

[elvis_knits]

If all of you people don't want to play with me, please say so and I will ask for replacement.

I don't want to ruin the game for everyone.

[elvis_knits]

Would you rather I replace out, because I totally will.

I'm not trying to ruin the game for people.

[elvis_knits]

Goodbye.

I have nothing more to say to you that is in any way nice.

[elvis_knits]

You perception of reality is not very accurate.

[elvis_knits]

I don't think that's true, but if it is, I will answer anything people think I neglected.

What do you want me to comment on?

[elvis_knits]

You're taking it out on me and acting like I ruined the game intentionally for you. That is not right. I think you're a very poor sport.

[elvis_knits]

Honestly I am too tired from Christmas shopping all day to wade through all your wall posts. I will look at them tomorrow or in the next few days. But I don't think I routinely ignore people -- atleast I don't try to.

[elvis_knits]

imprint messiah, vmd, plum, pug

I still think Messiah is town for being one of the founding members of the deathnote lynch mob.

VMD is mostly gut, but I think there is a good reason to return to some of the people who almost got imprints D1. If there was any scum engineering in the first lynch (like to prevent imprints).

Plum is not posting much in the other game I am in woth her, so this seems site-wide. Also Plum and Pome never post that heavily IMO, one of the reasons I know that they have a religious thing every friday/saturday (sabbath?). So I am not taking her lurking into account as far as my read goes.

Pug I'm less sure on, but he was on deathnote wagon and off starbuck, so that's good, and nobody has seemed to be trying to help him, so I sense no scum interaction on him. Well maybe some agreement between him and Messiah, but Ithink it was more from Messiah than pug, and I'm thinking messiah is town so... yeah.

I would also imprint me and SC since I still think he's town. But I understand that we look scummy after starbuck, and I don't blame people for having some suspicions over us.

FWIW, I think scum are farside, buttonmen and limerick (reckoner is the alternate).

I'm fully aware that buttonmen tried that breaking strategy stuff, but the rest of his play is scummy to me. I don't like the way he voted SC the first part of yesterday, arguing SC's hammer was bad because it prevented imprints. I explained how we don't ever lose the chance to imprint because we can no-lynch and imprint the next day after gaining info. He never answered my argument. Also he didn't seem very present during the starbuck lynch or fighting it very hard, but now he's quick to call the lynch a railroad.

I also think farside is scum since she vote starbuck and then commiserated with her how horrible me and SC were and how we were the root of all evil. farside was on that lynch too.

limerick mostly for his placement on the DN wagon and how he wanted to no-lynch and imprint the first day, which would have no-lynched instead of lynching scum. He just seemed to show up in a lot of the groupings I made of possible scum. However, I'm slightly conflicted on him because he seemed honest and conservative in his approach. I think we need ot hear more from him to be sure.

Reckoner, I don't know. I'll write more about him later. He was on the starbuck lynch despite telling us she was town earlier.

[elvis_knits]

SC is still town.

Something occurred to me about deathnote. He was scum who pushed a plan giving all the scum power roles. IMO opinion that increases the chance scum knew they wouldn't have a NK unless they got an imprint. Because DN was pushing so depserately for imprints. Which increases the chance that SC and me are town, once again.

I am not in the mood to argue with farside or buttonmen at this point (I will answer specific questions later if I can stomach it), but the way farside is putting my quotes up against each other like they conflict is stupid and scummy. Of course my opinions are going to change according to how things happen in the game, and if I reread things that change my mind. farside is on full-tilt scum mode. I've seen her as scum before and she is a shameless scum player. Ask her why she voted starbuck yesterday if she thinks me and SC are such scum who pushed a mislynch onto starbuck.

[elvis_knits]

Once again farside: hammering without imprints is not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing. Now that we have starbuck's flip it helps us decide who to imprint. Imprinting before a lynch is imprinting blindly. The correct way to do things is to lynch, look at the flip, imprint and then no lynch.

[elvis_knits]

SC is still town.

Something occurred to me about deathnote. He was scum who pushed a plan giving all the scum power roles. IMO opinion that increases the chance scum knew they wouldn't have a NK unless they got an imprint. Because DN was pushing so depserately for imprints. Which increases the chance that SC and me are town, once again.

I am not in the mood to argue with farside or buttonmen at this point (I will answer specific questions later if I can stomach it), but the way farside is putting my quotes up against each other like they conflict is stupid and scummy. Of course my opinions are going to change according to how things happen in the game, and if I reread things that change my mind. farside is on full-tilt scum mode. I've seen her as scum before and she is a shameless scum player. Ask her why she voted starbuck yesterday if she thinks me and SC are such scum who pushed a mislynch onto starbuck.

Way to not show quotes again. scum is scum sweetie of course what you say looks scummy because you are scum.

I'm not spending hours quoting you right now.

Why did you help lynch starbuck when you've been spending all your time fighting me and SC and calling us scum? We were pushing starbuck, you shoul dhave never agreed to lynch starbuck if you think we're scum.

[elvis_knits]

farside wants quotes. So I got one for her.

I see no mention of Starbuck in any of farside's posts until she votes Starbuck in this one. She doesn't even explain anything, but quotes some stuff, bolds it and then votes starbuck. Sort of odd since she spent all her time saying me and SC are scum and then she votes for our top suspect.

Dontcha think?

@ SC

Could you quote three (3) posts where you feel Starbuck is defending DN?

I can do this and placed in bold those defense's from starbuck about DN

On DeathNote
I definitely don't like his pressure of trying to make everyone choose between either one of his plans.

I've played with DeathNote before and it very much seems like he was just trying to get ideas out there. I'm not getting a completely scummy feeling from him

.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 08#2007508

You know SC...I have DeathNote in my null category right now, but I love how you jump so quick because I mentioned his name in a semi-positive faction and yours and elvis's in not such a positive faction.

This quick overreaction just makes you look scummier.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 61#2007561

I don't feel I misrepped you at all. That's exactly how it felt when I read it. Also, if you read the rules of the game, you would have known that the rogue actives could retain their powers. It surprises me, even after your blatant posts about reading over the rules carefully, that you admit to not doing so.

There was plenty of ideas and theories being thrown around at the time of your vote on DeathNote. I agree that not everyone should be imprinted and he sees now why this is a bad idea, but why must it only be after YOU point out that its anti-town or scummy?

You are making this situation to be entirely about you, when it's not.

At that point, DeathNote made a suggestion. Later on, yes, he wanted to limit people to two options which I find scummy, but at that point he just merely gave an idea. You blew it completely out of proportion.

I did paraphrase you because I was taking notes in notepad as I caught up. You still only semi-conceded to the idea AFTER SC said it was be decent, but NOT until that point.



If you read the rest of my post, instead of picking apart what you wanted, you would see that I did state my opinion on his idea and that it really wouldn't be a good one.

I also have already stated that I have a null tell currently on DeathNote, due to meta reasons.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 95#2008095

unvote:
vote: starbuck

[elvis_knits]

Once again farside: hammering without imprints is not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing. Now that we have starbuck's flip it helps us decide who to imprint. Imprinting before a lynch is imprinting blindly. The correct way to do things is to lynch, look at the flip, imprint and then no lynch.

Lets see you want to imprint in the hopes someone will check you/or SC but didn't want an imprint for anyone to check starbuck?
Do I have that right
As for dn's push that is more assumptions. That's like saying you know what was in his head when he hatched the plan in the first place.

No, not right.

Why should we imprint before seeing a flip? What if that flip would change our thoughts on imprinting?

If we are sure enough to lynch somebody, then we should lynch then look at the flip and change our imprints accordingly and then no-lynch.

I was sure enough about starbuck to think lynching her was better than no-lynching and imprinting.

[elvis_knits]

Buttonmen, I realize you wanted to lynch SC yesterday, I'm saying you weren't saying "don't lynch starbuck." You obviously saw it going down.

You reminded us Starbuck was L-1, and said you don't care what we do with that info,

but you just want people to know if they're hammering. That is not exactly a vote of confidence for Starbuck. I find it really odd for you to say you don't care what we do with that info -- as if you don't care if she get's lynched or not. Then for you to say starbuck was railroaded. It seems like you saw the lynch happening, didn't want to stop it, but wanted whoever hammered to know they were going to be in trouble. (And look who is getting heat now, Messiah, the hammerer).

If this is not what you meant by "I don't really care what you do with said info," then let me know.

Also I feel the need to point out in big bold letters that

Starbuck is at L-1

.

I don't really care what you do with said information but I want to make it obvious so no one hammers and then acts confused.

[elvis_knits]

That post does not address what I am asking you.

You warned us starbuck was at L-1 and said you don't care what we do with that info. Why didn't you care?

[elvis_knits]

Okay, buttonmen, you haven't answered my question, but the more I think about you, I do tend to think your breaking strategy is legit and that our personalities maybe do not mesh well. I don't mean to alienate you further by pushing you, but I do want to know more about where you are coming from.

You may think you've been perfectly clear about your positions, and I think you have been clear about wanting SC dead. But I know little else about what you think of the game. You are only voting to imprint yourself. Can you talk about why you aren't voting to imprint anyone else?

Can you talk about anyone you suspect besides SC (and I guess, me)?

Can you talk about what sort of strategy you want to follow? Because you're the only one close to getting an imprint. Do you think you should be the only one with an imprint? Should we make more?

I think it's better to get as many opinions out there to reach consensus. I think you disagree with me on that. We can argue if you want, but I don't really desire an argument about gameplay. Just tell us as much as you feel comfortable.

[elvis_knits]

I'll say this again if necessary, if we're going to imprint, we should no-lynch.

If we're going to lynch we should wait to imprint.

There is nothing lost by waiting to see the flip, imprinting with that new info to add to the old info, and then no-lynching.

[elvis_knits]

null

Although moar posting from plum would be good.

[elvis_knits]

Oh good, SC, you're back. I thought I was going to have to post pictures of Thelma and Louise to get you to rally.

[elvis_knits]

Here they are!

[elvis_knits]

I think no-lynch and imprint is best.

If we're lynching I would vote farside, personally. I realize I have little pull at this point and SC would probably be lynched instead. If we're lynching we really should wait to look at the flip, imprint tomorrow and nolynch tomorrow. That's the only thing that makes sense. I highly suspect SC will flip town if we lynch him, so the flip is crucial info. But even if you think SC will flip scum, there is nothing lost by waiting on the imprints.

[elvis_knits]

unimprint VMD

[elvis_knits]

Honestly, I'm wary of the people who were against the DeathNote lynch. I may have been one of those people, but I know my town-ness.

Let's look at the end of day VC from D1:

-=Vote Count #13: The End of Day One Vote Count=-

Nevada (7) - Virginia, Georgia, Montana, Iowa, Colorado, Florida, Alaska

Virginia (2) - Arizona, Kansas
Alaska (1) - Hawaii

Not Voting (2) - Nevada, Ohio

7 to lynch.

-=Imprint Count #13: The End of Day One Imprint Count=-

Ohio (5) - Nevada, Florida, Arizona, Ohio, Colorado
Colorado (5) - Nevada, Ohio, Colorado, Iowa, Florida
Hawaii (5) - Nevada, Arizona, Kansas, Colorado, Hawaii
Montana (4) - Nevada, Ohio, Virginia, Kansas
Alaska (3) - Alaska, Nevada, Virginia
Florida (3) - Nevada, Florida, Ohio
Iowa (3) - Arizona, Iowa, Kansas
Georgia (3) - Nevada, Georgia, Virginia
Virginia (2) - Alaska, Virginia
Arizona (1) - Nevada
Kansas (1) - Nevada
Nevada (1) - Nevada

7 to imprint.

ALASKA = SerialClergyman
ARIZONA = Starbuck
COLORADO = Messiah
FLORIDA = Limerickx
GEORGIA = Plum
HAWAII = TheButtonmen
IOWA = xRECKONERx
KANSAS = farside22
MONTANA = Pug89
NEVADA = DeathNote
OHIO = Vala Mal Doran
VIRGINIA = elvis_knits

*totally gonna write some flavour here too, honest.*

Nevada, Rogue Active - Sent to the Attic Day One

No one has been imprinted.

-=No imprints means no need for a night, so we're straight on to Day Two! Deadline set for Thursday, 14th January. With 11 alive, it will take 6 votes to lynch or imprint.=-

Translated for ease of reading:

DN

(7): elvis, plum, pug, reckoner, messiah, limerick, SC
Elvis (2):

starbuck

, farside
SC (1): Buttonmen

Not voting:

DN

, VMD

VMD (5) -

DN

, Limerick,

Starbuck

, VMD, Messiah
Messiah (5) -

DN

, VMD, Messiah, Reskoner, Limerick
Thebuttonmen (5) -

DN

,

Starbuck

, Farside, Messiah, TheButtonmen
Pug (4) -

DN

, VMD, Elvis, Farside
SC (3) - SC,

DN

, Elvis
Limerick (3) -

DN

, Limerick, VMD
Reckoner (3) -

Starbuck

, Reckoner, Farside
Plum (3) -

DN

, Plum, Elvis
elvis (2) - SC, Elvis

Starbuck

(1) -

DN

Farside (1) -

DN

DN (1) - DN

NOTE: DN tried(?) to unimprint lewarcher (reckoner), but did not bold the request, so it is not reflected in the VC.

(I'm going to do some analysis, but just wanted to post this so I can refer back to it, and anyone else can do their own analysis too. I think that a lot of this needs to be discussed with context too).

[elvis_knits]

EBWOP: Oh, the DN unimprint vote IS reflects in the VC... never mind my little "Note" above.

[elvis_knits]

So I keep going back and forth on VMD. On the one hand she has made a number of dubious votes. Vote buttonmen for breaking strategy. Voted me for noticing towntells on me and SC. Voting SC on the grounds that he was "obviously bussing DN."

On the other hand I get the feeling sometimes that she's just town that I just disagree with.

Reading her over, I wanted to ask about this:

Smart scum will bus their scumbuddies if they think the benefits will outweigh losing a member. Period. For a scum attacking a scum!DN, they would receive far more benefits from bussing him early and hard than they would from keeping him alive,

assuming he's as useless in the QT as he is here

. If DN is scum I expect to find at least two of the scumbags on his lynch trying to make themselves look good, if not all three. You're completely disregarding the fact that he is a blatantly anti-town player, and not someone scum would probably want to keep around if he's going to undermine their strategies.

(I bolded that part).

It seems really weird to me that she would speculate on DN's contributions in the scum QT. Although, if she's scum I don't know why she would say this either exactly. I guess I'd just like to hear more about this and why she was thinking about this?

[elvis_knits]

Please explain reck how you find EK town with her constant (3 players now) that she has misrepresented.

lol

Who did I misrep farside?

[elvis_knits]

Tell me what you want me to respond to. I have no doubt that you think I misrepped you at some point or another as we've had many disagreements, but I don't know what in particular you have a problem with. I also don't know what I did to Buttonmen or Star. I actually think I don't want to comment on Starbuck ever again in my life since she is an incredibly poor sport (and that's about the nicest thing I have to say about her). Oh, except that your vote on Starbuck makes no sense since you were all over me and SC and then, OUT OF NOWHERE, you jumped on the lynch we wanted. Then after Starbuck started pitching a fit you went back to blaming us for all that is evil in the world.

ANYWAY, if you could point me to what posts or whatever you want me to address, I'll do it. I ISOed you and there's just so much crap there and half of it I don't even know what you're trying to say. I've been trying not to say this because I don't want to offend you (because I really like you on a personal level), but sometimes your grammar and sentences are so confusing that it's hard for me to understand.

[elvis_knits]

Okay well I'm getting post 719 from that link, so I'll just respond to everything lest I be accused of ignoring!

Once again farside: hammering without imprints is not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing. Now that we have starbuck's flip it helps us decide who to imprint. Imprinting before a lynch is imprinting blindly. The correct way to do things is to lynch, look at the flip, imprint and then no lynch.

Lets see you want to imprint in the hopes someone will check you/or SC but didn't want an imprint for anyone to check starbuck?
Do I have that right
As for dn's push that is more assumptions. That's like saying you know what was in his head when he hatched the plan in the first place.

No, not right.

Why should we imprint before seeing a flip? What if that flip would change our thoughts on imprinting?

If we are sure enough to lynch somebody, then we should lynch then look at the flip and change our imprints accordingly and then no-lynch.

I was sure enough about starbuck to think lynching her was better than no-lynching and imprinting.

Lets say in theory we get a cop imprint. Them checking the lynchee can prove town/scum.

So I see no harm in imprinting before a flip and after a flip we can only imprint someone before a flip so why no lynch.

It should all depend on the lynch.

Bolded part is confusing to me. I have no idea what you're arguing here. If I'm supposed to respond to this you'll have to explain what you mean.

As for you're quote on SB I explained my position on that.

I don't understand you here either.

(Am I just stupid? I don't get you.)

Finally:

I'm actually sort of surprised farside voted for Starbuck. She went from repeating "elvis and SC are scum, everything they say is crap sandwich (including how starbuck is scum)... and elvis is buddies with VMD" to "Look how vmd and starbuck are connected to deathnote! vote starbuck."

Please show where I called both of you scum. Show where I said everything you both said was crap and commented on your SB case (which you just proved I never said anything till that post). I'm pointing out budding I noticed how is that not scum hunting?

Since your first post you've been saying stuff like:

I really don't like that both SC and Elvis imprint each other too much buddy, buddy for me. I don't care if you know someone in the game giving an imprint without a reason is just as scummy to me as doing a vote without a reason.

Doesn't this mean that you think we're scum buddies?

Then you spent a lot of time telling SC he was just wrong and that he was being fooled by scumelvis. But you're not realy sure and even if SC is town you basically think he's very wrong. I'm not trying to misrep you. This is what I saw. Stuff like this sums it up:

I think you are putting too much stock into believing elvis is town were I don't see this as EK town read so far.
Then I have that sick thought that you are trying to use this a ploy as scum you may not be partner with EK and hope it will lynch town tomorrow.

Call this lack of trust in either of you.

As I said reading both of you I feel one is scum and EK is who I lean as scum in this case over you.

(bolding is mine)

It's statements like this, especially the bolded that made me say that you thought everything we said was crap. "Lack of trust in either of you." And saying one or both of us must be scum. That destroys our credibility, and ecourages people not to listen to us.

And if you lack such trust in us, and think one or both of us is scum, I really question why you would have ever voted Starbuck. And the way you turned on us after starbuck pitched a fit really makes me think you were avoiding responsibility and trying to throw dirt on me and SC. Yes, I voted Starbuck. But I thought she was scum for ages. You can see that in my posts. I had lots of dealing with her. On the other hand, you voted Starbuck OUT OF NOWHERE.

I also think farside is scum since she vote starbuck and then commiserated with her how horrible me and SC were and how we were the root of all evil. farside was on that lynch too.

I voted for starbuck based on the interactions I saw as well. Along with VMD because it all gave me pause. As for the commiserating I don't want to discuss those thoughts till the end of the game because even though a part is game related some is more about trying not to ruin the game. However I feel if I don't say this you will just bring it up again.
I think a lot of what your doing is scum motivated EK. A lot of the ignoring and misrep I don't see as personal but scum motivated
As for SC I see it has him playing maryter not listening or reasoning but I could be wrong on my read on him and it could be him using AtE.

Your vote-post on starbuck was just a bunch of quotes that you bolded, no explanation from you. I would think it would take a lot for you to vote starbuck when me and SC were voting her. But you hardly even write anything. I just don't think you were sincere, because if you were sincere, I think you would have written and explained more.

And then you threw me and SC under the bus:

To be honest, Starbuck, I'll learn that we were right about one scum and wrong about another and that's better than random chance.

You need to allow people to be wrong.

You need to learn that there are 10 other people playing this game besides you and Elvis.

QFT ^ I almost, almost thought about asking for a replacement do to the maryter attitude from both of them. It's almost like banging your head against a wall when someone doesn't listen to your opinion which is just as valid.
The only reason I don't see SC scum right now is I can't imagine a scum player taking the chance to hammer and ask for his own lynch like that.
Granted it could be an AtE but it's still hard to imagine. However EK has not done anything I found townie without using either assumptions or some of the WIFOM about the role and the DN flip which I disputed and get ignored mainly by her.

And this is where you commiserate with starbuck. You accuse us of being martyr sand then proceed to be one yourself, saying you almost asked for replacement. You replaced into this game! Give me a break.

And I am listening to your opinion farsie, I just disagree. There is a difference. And it's not fair for you to say that I ignore you just because I don't want to repeat myself 500 times about how I disagree with you.

You can shout WIFOM about my opinions all day long, but I don't think it's WIFOM when one glass of wine has a much higher chance of being the right one to choose. I've said this before.

Also, please notice how you're doing the exact same thing by saying "SC is prob not scum because he asked to be lynched." Anyone could say to you WIFOM about that. And techinically it probably is. But you are using your intuition and experience as a player to say that scum probably wouldn't act how he is acting. That is exactly what I am doing with confirming SC because he said something I consider a towntell.

[elvis_knits]

farside, do I really have to respond to your post or can we just agree that you've said what you think and I've said what I think?

I'll just summarize, I guess.

I do realize that you have spent a while trying to convince SC that I'm scum and that I'm using him. But the same arguments you've made against me to say I'm scum you've also used against SC, so I guess I jumped to the wrong conclusion. I mean, you've been tearing him down right with me. So it just makes me think that you think he's scum.

You're voting him now, so I guess you think he's scum now. But you're trying to argue with me that you didn't think he was scum before and so I misrepped you. Fine. But that's the feeling I get from your posts, from the continued way you tore him down all game and lumped me and him together and called me scum.

By the way I did find a game that didn't mention the scum all had a NK and but they could kill but it got ignored too.

Well, 1 game on the entire site means it's possible for a scum role PM to forget to mention a NK when the scum actually have one. 1 out of how many games? The odds are still in my favor, don't you think?

Let's talk about WIFOM

Farside, you've had a lot of problems with me and WIFOM. But you make assumptions too when it suits your needs.

bah reading SC post about EK in 215 I get the impression he is just impressed with EK and ignoring things that he shouldn't.

Isn't that an assumption? I'm sure I could find more, but I don't want to waste time. Just picked the nearest quote.

You expect people to trust anyone in mafia? Really???? Even my town read of button I feel off about it when I see do things. Till I feel 100% certain on anyone I don't trust really anyone.

Trust is important in the game of mafia. Not blind trust. Not for no reason. But I think it's important to trust people you think are town. Because even if you are wrong, giving out a little trust is often helpful in finding out if you're wrong. You can always reevaluate later. That's the way I play, anyway. And you may not play that way, but my way is perfectly valid. I saw a town tell on SC, and so I pointed it out. His play since then has only made me more sure.

And then you threw me and SC under the bus:

How is that throwing a person under the bus exactly?

Because you didn't defend why you voted her, you acted like it was all me and SC's fault. You acted like we are ruining the game (causing you to think about being replaced). THIS IS MANIPULATIVE CRAP. I am doing nothing other than playing a game of mafia. If you think I am a huge monster and an intolerable idiot, then complain to the mod and get me replaced. I PMed username days ago and told him that I don't want to ruin the game and that if he's getting complaints that he can replace me. I have heard nothing from him, so I guess my play is okay with him. If people are afraid to say it in thread, PM username to get me replaced. All I'm trying to do is lynch scum. Just because I don't agree with every one of you all the time doesn't mean I'm ruining the game. Just because I will continue to argue for what I think is right, doesn't mean I'm ruining the game.

[elvis_knits]

Okay, I just want to point out that two people (buttonemn, pug) are one vote away from being imprinted and SC is two votes away from being lynched.

I have said repeatedly that it is stupid to imprint and then lynch.

Can we pick one or the other?

If we're doing both, can someone explain why we're not waiting to see the flip to decide who gets imprints?

[elvis_knits]

unimprint

Until we reach a decision on which way we're going with the lynches/imprints.

[elvis_knits]

When she replaced in, D1 and DN was on the block:

I think have 2 people imprinted or 3 imprinted with a no lynch is best too.

It's interesting that this was her first take on the game, on a day that would have saved scum from a lynch. What changed to make her think we should be lynching and imprinting on the same day?

Next, she spends a lot of time saying that if DN flips scum it doesn't clear me or SC. While avoiding commenting on DN.

I need to read back on DN. For me no matter what DN's role is it doesnt' clear you.

I need a moment for looking back at DN all the buddying between EK and SC really needs to end.

So then the DN lynch is getting moving, and farside wants to make sure we get imprints in there before the flip:

Can we make sure to get imprint out of the way too people.

I see no harm in imprinting 2 players for informational purposes at this point.

NOTE: she never really comments on DN. She spends all her time arguing with me and SC. Why would anyone fail to comment on the person we were lynching?

---

D2 is much of the same from farside, attacking me and SC, attacking VMD.

Then she votes Starbuck OUT OF NOWHERE. This is one of my biggest problems with farside.

She hardly mentions Starbuck all game, and then switches to voting Starbuck, with hardly any explanation. (ISO 34). Starbuck is me and SC's prime suspect, and if she's spent all game arguing with us and how wrong and scummy we are, and then she turns around and votes Starbuck. It doesn't make sense.

Commiserates with Starbuck with how awful me and SC are in ISO 45. Totally acting like she didn't vote starbuck also and contribute to the lynch.

---

D3 more fighting with me (and SC). Says that I continually ignore and misrep people. One of her big points seems to be that she wasn't calling me AND SC scum, but that she was calling me scum and SC was just a pawn in my dastardly scheme. In the middle of this, she switches her vote to SC. (huh?)

---

Okay, so my main points against farside are:
1)Failure to comment on DN's scumminess when the wagon was building. Did not vote DN.
2)Tried to say we should not lynch D1 and imprint instead (would have saved DN from lynch).
3)Spends all her time attacking me and SC, then changes her vote to our number one suspect, Starbuck, with almost no explanation.
4)Throws a fit and says I misrepped her, that she never called both me and SC scummy, but that she thinks I am scum and SC is my town stooge. Then she changes her vote to SC.

vote farside

[elvis_knits]

lol

<3

SC, who are your scum picks at this point?

[elvis_knits]

Hey farside, your examples are not what you represent them to be.

Also I would like to point something out that SC is using the terms least likely when I talk about scum bussing.
However just on this page with games done and over I have 3 cases in slight scum bussing day 1 and yest on page 1

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 11#1864811



http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12460

Both of these games are scum random voting each other on D1. That's not a bus. It doesn't count.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12404

locke first vote is on jebus (her scum partner and kono (lynched day 1 votes on Jebus)

This vote was on page 9. This doesn't count either as a page 1 buss, or a early D1 buss.

[elvis_knits]

The blatant buddying is making me nauseous.

Do you feel left out?

:huggle:

[elvis_knits]

When she replaced in, D1 and DN was on the block:
farside wrote:
I think have 2 people imprinted or 3 imprinted with a no lynch is best too.

It's interesting that this was her first take on the game, on a day that would have saved scum from a lynch. What changed to make her think we should be lynching and imprinting on the same day?

read my words more carefully because it was 2 imprinted with a lynch or 3 imprinted with a no lynch that was discussed.
Which I was more clear here:

Yeah I'm leaning on lynch today and imprinting 2 players for information purposes right now.

Farside, if that's what you meant, that's not what you wrote.

And I don't understand the reasoning for you to suggest "imprint 2 people and lynch or imprint 3 people and nolynch." What are the benefits of that plan?

And yes I agrue with you and SC becuase I find you scum EK. I already stated my reason's and again you seem to ignored that day 2 if I wanted to lynch SC it would have been incredibly easy to do so with him asking people to vote for him.

I'm not ignoring this. I just don't care. It has nothing to do with anything.

Honestly I wanted to know about imprints before a hammer on DN and I still think even reading SC's comment that not imprinting with a lynch makes no sense.
We could have had a cop day 1 with an imprint and someone could have checked SB. No one thinks about this and that is what I do not get.

Is this your excuse for never commenting on DN who was obviously going to be lynched?

Yes, the hammer was a bit unexpected at that time. But DN lynch was not unexpected at all. You said twice you would look at DN and comment and never did.

Going over EK's points
1. As for this one there was lots to still talk about. You and SC are the most vocal and I was not expecting a hammer without everyone talking aobut how they felt on imprints.
Oh look who takes that out of everyone's hand SC!

Again, DN lynch was not a surprise. Might have been a little early, but you still promised to read up on DN (twice) and give comments and didn't get around to it. You couldn't even give a general statement on him without rereading?

2. is false

Debatable. If it's false, then you wrote completely the wrong thing. If you can explain why you were suggesting "2 imprints with a lynch or three imprints with a no-lynch" and how it benefits town, then I might let this point drop.

3. you're number 1 suspect was DN for most of the day SC Number 1 was starbuck. I notice you seem to not notice this

THIS DOES NOT ANSWER MY POINT!

Try again:

3)Spends all her time attacking me and SC, then changes her vote to our number one suspect, Starbuck, with almost no explanation.

TELL ME WHY YOU WOULD CHANGE YOUR VOTE TO THE PERSON ME AND SC SUSPECT WHEN YOU THINK I AM SCUM AND HE IS MY STOOGE.

4. You did misrep. How is that scummy to call you out for misrep?

AGAIN, NOT ADDRESSING THE PROBLEM HERE, FARSIDE.

IF YOU THINK I AM SCUM AND SC IS MY STOOGE, WHY HAVE YOU CHANGED YOUR VOTE TO SC?

[elvis_knits]

So, I am down for the no-lynch and imprint 2 people plan. But I'm still voting farside for the moment because I figure why not use my time wisely.

I guess buttonmen should get the imprint. He's probably most likely to be town although I don't care for the way he thinks (and thus don't love him being a town leader, even if he is town). But I guess it's better to have someone you're pretty sure is town even if they rub you the wrong way.

I'm not sure who I want as the second at this point. Pug is the closest to imprint I think. Pug hasn't done too much I can find fault in, and he was not part of the incest voting from D1 which is a point in his favor. My only reservation is he hasn't been as involved in the game, not posting as much, not really originating cases or scum hunting that much.

(I mean, I would obviously trust myself or SC to get imprints but I know that's not happening.)

[elvis_knits]

I am still here also... busy with holidays, etc. I think my feeling are pretty apparent on most things, although I don't think I'm voting no-lynch yet.

I'm really interested to see if CTD can breathe some new life into this game.

[elvis_knits]

Let's just stick with the one imprint and no-lynch.

I'm exhausted.

Let's just see what we can find out about imprinting by trying one.

[elvis_knits]

I don't actually care that much at this point, I could ge for 1 or 2. I'm just sort of DONE at the moment, and since we already have one imprint, just thought I'd like to move forward. Test the imprints out with one, go from there.

Also, one seems safest. Pug is the next in line and although I don't have much beef with pug... I don't know if pug really deserves it. Pug hasn't been that involved in everything. Makes me slightly nervous.

[elvis_knits]

I don't think we should imprint anyone to get a better read on them. I think we should imprint people we are confident are town.

[elvis_knits]

I'm not sure. I'm having trouble being very analytical right now because I am still exhausted from holidays. My first reaction is that I don't really agree with everything he's said, primarily the shots at SC and me, but I understand why he thinks what he thinks (he is coming off as reasonably), so I don't necessarily think it's scummy. I have to think more about him, I guess, and see more posts from him. I'm sorry that sort of sucks as a response but I am having trouble digesting more than short posts at the moment.

[elvis_knits]

By the by, elvis, I don't agree, I think farside is likier to be town than scum. Her case on me is actually quite good. If you had to accept she was town, who would you look at next?

Seeing her play in another game has given me some insight into her actually. It's ongoing... blahblahblah, but I now feel like she is perfectly capable of arguing everything she has argued from a town POV. It's a sort of rigid reliance on rules of game theory and failure to use gut effectively, that I think she may use as town. It may be why we're butting heads so much.

unvote

I feel like I need to take another look at the game, tbh. I have such bad feeling over certain issues that I'm trying to find a way of looking at things with fresh eyes and reevaluating everything.

But I still feel SC is town. If Starbuck was town, and if farside is town too, we've had a lot of town-on-town fighting. I feel those type of situations favor scum being more lurky, so I think we need to pay more attention to the people who have not been vocal. I guess I'm thinking of plum and pug, who I think have contributed least. The other way I think scum might play in town-on-town fights is to subtly perpetuate the fighting without posting too much. Not sure who that might be at the moment, but I want to look back at the thread for this.

I also think there are fair cases against VMD and Reckoner. VMD has made some bad votes, and reckoner has reversed himself at some opportune times. My intuition is not

sure

they are scum though, for some reason. This is the type of situation that needs more discussion, atleast for me, to be able to sort out.

The replacements are confusing me. I think I'm going to need people to refer to the new people by the old/new players for a while until I understand who is who. It's good to get a new read on players, but it does require more work. Like I really thought plum had been replaced but I guess she was not? Gah.

I really think we should not do another imprint until the replacements get up to speed and the old people get up to speed on the replacements. I also think that plum or pug, no matter how their posts have seemed good, should not be imprinted until they start participating more and scum hunting more. Lurking during town-on-town fights is an effective scum strategy, and I don't know if they were really busy or not.

[elvis_knits]

I really have a hard time following you, farside.

"you have a point that it's not based on gut but on what you could see scum trying to do?

Isn't that the same thing?"

It's this kind of post that is starting to make me think that it's possible that some of my problems with farside are communication fails. I still don't get why she changed her vote to starbuck when me and SC (her nemeses) were pushing starbuck lynch. But I'm starting to wonder if maybe it really does make sense to her.

[elvis_knits]

I mean:

I really have a hard time following you, farside.

"you have a point that it's not based on gut but on what you could see scum trying to do?"

Isn't that the same thing?

It's this kind of post that is starting to make me think that it's possible that some of my problems with farside are communication fails. I still don't get why she changed her vote to starbuck when me and SC (her nemeses) were pushing starbuck lynch. But I'm starting to wonder if maybe it really does make sense to her.

[elvis_knits]

Who are you thinking about imprinting?

[elvis_knits]

I'm not sure how much I can post today since more people came to my house last night. I want to post a little in response to CTD about SC though, because I think it's important to the conversation.

I went through like the first part of the post, and will do more wehn I get a chance.

1) RE: SC's 115 - SC advocates not imprinting while voting to imprint himself and me.
-> not sure how big a conflict this is since we weren't in danger of being imprinted, and as such he seemed to be discussing things and not sure exactly which way he wanted to go

2) RE: SC's 146 - SC embraces idea to imprint us
-> Wouldn't you, if you saw a towntell?

3) RE: Idea that SC argued against us being scum together as a way to tie himself to me (etc... paraphrasing not exact here)
->I see this idea as plausable. This is a way that scum do act, and I see why you might think this. However, it's not the only explanation. One of the things that probably caused SC to act like this is that people were calling us both scum. So SC argued that we aren't. It seems like a natural progression to me.

Overall, you could be right, but it's not the only explanation.

4) RE: SC wanted to lynch Starbuck first
->This is your strongest point, IMO. This is something that has given me pause on SC, but I have largely dismissed it based on all the other things that make me think SC is town. On its own though, I agree with you, CTD, that SC wanting to lynch Starbuck before DN was atleast an error, if not scummy. In my mind, Starbuck was only possible scum IF DN flipped scum. Which he did, which made lynching Starbuck a good idea. I would not have wanted to lynch Starbuck first. And yes it would be an effective strategy to clear a scum DN, to lynch SB first.

I guess the way that I rationalize this in my own head, as far as still seeing SC as town, is that I have seen town people make arguments like this before. There's a game that is ALMOST ALMOST over, and I'm dead in. I'll link you to it as soon as it ends.

So... more coming later.

I think that SC wanting to lynch SB before DN is a potential problem, and CTD's best point. However, I still think SC is town. I will go into more later, and respond to other points.

CTD, not sure if you wrote about this somewhere else, but what do you make of SC asking to be lynched after hammering DN? And 3-4 jumping on that and voting him ASAP? Was that a scum gambit? What was the thinking there, do you think?

[elvis_knits]

Sorry I'm doing this response to CTD in pieces, but I don't have time for all at once so I'm just trying to do what I can when I have a free moment.

Anyway...

And here we are, the big one. I have to quote it because it's so juicy:

I have a suggestion. Lynch DN, imprint me. If I'm wrong, and he's town, I'll be the next lynch, and I'll tell you all what my power was and where I used it and what I found. If I'm right, we lynch Starbuck and imprint me and elvis.

How does Elvis feel about this now that we know the alignment of DN and Starbuck? Not only is this a ludicrous attempt at a power-grab (his scheme involves him getting imprinted twice!), it also conveniently sets up the lynch of a pro-town player. Of course, this is in hind-sight, but considering he

wasn't actually suspcious of DN on his own

, I really cannot comprehend at all how a town-SC could have thought this was a good idea.

This is my POV:

I notice a town-tell on me and SC (you may disagree, but I think it's pretty good, and definitely at the time seemed awesome). In a way, I feel like I'm breaking the game. If we can imprint two townies, risk-free, we have a huge edge.

But the response to my idea was not good. It ended up alienating everyone, and forcing an elvis-SC sort of informal alliance in the game, where we knew each other were innnocent, but everyone else was suspicious of us.

From that point on, I would say that some of SC's moves have been unorthodox attempts to convince the town that we really are innocent, or "make a deal." So a lot of the things that you see as insane power grabs, have looked more to me like SC was trying, any way he could, to get two town players into a position to break the game.

If you KNEW that you and somebody else in the game were town, and that if you got some power in the game, scum would be dead in the water, wouldn't you try everything you could think of to get the power and win the game?

I fully realize that many of you think my founding premise is flawed, about "scum would know they didn't have a NK." But I still think it's pretty good. Like I said in the beginning, it's not 100%, but I do think that THE GREAT MAJORITY of the time, scum know what their powers are and what they aren't. I realize that nobody seems to agree. No need to beat me over the head again, but it's what I think.

---

The other major component of this is SC wanting to lynch Starbuck first. I agree that is a problem. But, like I said last post, I have seen a situation very similar to this, with players who had supposedly tied allignments, and several people were arguing to lynch somebody whose allignment largely depended on the other's flip. IMO, one had ot be lynched before the other. Several people argued against me, half were town.

I guess the thing is that I agree that it is a tell, but that doesn't mean that it's 100%. You have to look farther than this.

Or perhaps I am just snowed by my own faulty logic about scum knowing they didn't have a NK?

I really still think SC is town. I can see where SC is coming from. I think he's making good arguments and I can see where he is coming from. I really don't think his attack on SC is scummy. But I think he is wrong. Part of that may have to do with being outside of the wacky SC-elvis zone where nobody believes us.

Anyway, next chance I get, I think I'd like to do a little post why I think SC is town, just so y'all can read it. You may not agree with it, but I think it would be good at least to read it, and you can comment on it, try to convince me I'm wrong.

[elvis_knits]

lol

Went overboard with the SC love...

Should be more like this:

I really still think SC is town. I can see where CTD is coming from. I think he's making good arguments and I can see where he is coming from. I really don't think his attack on SC is scummy. But I think he (CTD) is wrong. Part of that may have to do with being outside of the wacky SC-elvis zone where nobody believes us.

[elvis_knits]

The funny thing about the farside-reck business is that farside also made a dubious switch to starbuck, IMO.

[elvis_knits]

The funny thing about the farside-reck business is that farside also made a dubious switch to starbuck, IMO.

Umm I never said anything about star till I went back that day with SC, so hush.
He blantly flip on his views from 1 post to the other.
Any other catty remark you wish to make that shows once again I see you not reading the game.

Oh farside... I was just razzing you.

I am reading the game though and I see where you're coming from about reck. I thought that all the people who had previously expressed little to no suspicion on Starbuck and then voted her were pretty suspect. You were one of those people. I actually think at this point your vote on Starbuck *might* have been sincere for how you were connecting SB to VMD, and VMD had been your suspect for a while. The wrench in those works is you connected SB to VMD after voting SB, not before. But hey, I think I am done attacking you for the moment. I can't promise I'll never make any more catty remarks though! <3

As for the reckoner vote switch to SB, it is potentially scummy, I agree. Reckoner had been semi-defending Starbuck to the point that I said "If she's scum, you're her buddy." Obv she didn't flip scum, so he's not her buddy.

Starbuck was neutral on his little grid on D1 and then D2 he was like

My vote will either go to Starbuck or SC.

Then

Vote: SerialClergyman

His ploy was that if he was town, then so was elvis... and if DeathNote was scum, so was Starbuck. IMO, it was a bus. He knew DeathNote would flip scum, therefore incriminating Starbuck and seemingly clearing both himself and elvis.

Then

Vote: Starbuck

On second thought, lynching Starbuck is a better plan. Passively defending someone who flips scum is a no-no.

There's not a whole lot of reasoning there why he was switching from SC to Starbuck. I think both votes were kinda going with the popular choice at the moment. The vote on SC is horrible as well since it is full of WIFOM, but if he really believes it, he shouldn't want to switch so easily.

Some new stuff people haven't talked about so much about reckoner:

1) Way back, reckoner said VMD's vote on buttonmen was a

towntell

. I think he takes this back later, but that's what he originally said. I think it makes no sense, and I think it shows a link between them. (Which only becomes important if one flips scum, obv).

2) I didn't like this:

Farside is digging herself a hole.

Maybe it's just the connotation I associate with the expression "digging herself a hole," but it makes me think he thinks farside is making herself SOUND scummy, even though she may not be. Did anyone else read it that way?

---

Rereading reck, I do have a number of problems with him, although I still have sort of a weird gut feeling that keeps me from being totally sold. I also like that he's calling me town, since I feel like it's not really beneficial to scum to do that. Or maybe I am just very susceptible to buddying.

[elvis_knits]

Serial, you're thinking VMD is town... I've keep going back and forth on her. But these are the things I think are scummy, and maybe you and others can discuss with me.

VMD
1)vote on buttonmen (discussed ad nauseum)
[1.5)Reckoner called her buttonman vote a towntell, later retracted]
2)talking about DN's contributions to the scum QT:

Smart scum will bus their scumbuddies if they think the benefits will outweigh losing a member. Period. For a scum attacking a scum!DN, they would receive far more benefits from bussing him early and hard than they would from keeping him alive,

assuming he's as useless in the QT as he is here

. If DN is scum I expect to find at least two of the scumbags on his lynch trying to make themselves look good, if not all three. You're completely disregarding the fact that he is a blatantly anti-town player, and not someone scum would probably want to keep around if he's going to undermine their strategies.

(I bolded that part).

It seems really weird to me that she would speculate on DN's contributions in the scum QT. Although, if she's scum I don't know why she would say this either exactly. I guess I'd just like to hear more about this and why she was thinking about this?

I don't think she ever answered this. I'm wondering if it's a slip. Maybe DN did actually suck in the QT.
3)Recently replaced out when under suspicion (could have been totally due to her job which she said is retail which I have no doubt sucks hard this time of year)

[elvis_knits]

The scum-slip thing --

I'm not pushing it because I have been wrong before on "slips" like in /invy4. But I do believe they happen a good amount of the time, and I continue to look for them, I just try not to put 100% confidence in them anymore.

But I don't think this possible slip is language related. The rolepm's say the scum have a QT and I know I have mentioned it and others have also. So it's not that she's talking about the QT that makes me suspicious. It's that she's saying DN is probably useless in the QT. It's just really odd to me that she's imagining or thinking about what DN is like in the scumQT. It feels almost like she's griping here, like "not only has DN made him a target here D1, but he won't even post in the QT, what a bad scum buddy, I hate him!" Or maybe like she was trying to remind DN to check the scumQT because they rest of the scum team was going bananas trying to figure out their moves and DN was not posting. Maybe they needed to communicate with him, and wanted to remind him to check the QT?

I don't know. I know I'm speculating heavily, and I won't ever really KNOW why VMD wrote that, it just seems very abnormal to me. Am I overreacting?

[elvis_knits]

To be honest, and this is just me, but it'll take a lot to get over the town tell I suggested earlier. It's THE tell that I use as an example of a near-infallible tell. Of course, once I say all this it's open to abuse, but I doubt VMD meta'd enough of my theory discussions to construct it. But especially in this context, with lots of scum around and they're vulnerable to lynches - it doesn't make sense to not take a side in a town v town argument, you know? So that's where I'm coming from, I had to think about it because when the day started I was suspicious due to the tell I mentioned earlier about asking about Starbuck's flip but came around to trusting this town tell.

I think this is a pretty good town tell... scum don't want to stop townie fights most of the time.

However, I know that as scum, I tend to be a wuss, and am sometimes scared of how it will look to pile onto bandwagons or which side to take in a town-town fight. SO, in the past, I have said something was probably town-town, so that I could build a case elsewhere. When I am scum, and I think I can't get onto a wagon and look town, I will start another bandwagon in hopes that I will look more protown by doing it that way.

FWIW.

[elvis_knits]

Also, do you think I'm onto something with reck/ctd or am I tilting at windmills?

I think that messiah made some scummy moves, but I think CTD is coming from a pro-town place in his posts. I disagree with his conclusion that you're scum, but I think he's entirely consistent with what I know of him. I think he was a late replacement into Invitational10 which I played in. So I'm a little divided on CTD, but I am leaning probably neutral,

Reckoner, I have some issues with, I think I posted on his yesterday. I think he's a better one to look into and discuss. I have him linked to VMD a bit for how he said VMD's vote on buttonmen was a towntell.

---

What I am trying to look at now is the time of the d1 hammer/d2 stuff. I think the rush to vote you was particularly odd, seeing as we lynched scum. I also really don't like how buttonmen is sitting there saying

My biggest suspect =/= DeathNote

Then after you hammer, buttonmen goes:

And SC if DN is scum don't even try to pull the bullshit logic "oh look he's scum so that means I'm / Elvis is town"

So here we have buttonmen still saying DN is not his top suspect. Being really wishy-washy about DN, not encouraging DN's lynch at all. Yet after DN is hammerer, and BEFORE the flip is revealed, buttonmen is quick to make sure that if DN flips scum we not give SC in credit.

It seems like buttonmen EXPECTS DN to flip scum at this point, which is odd, since buttonmen didn't vote DN and said last page that DN was not his top suspect. Yet, after DN is dead, but before the reveal, buttonmen is already doing damage control and telling everyone not to consider SC town if DN flips scum.

So then D2 starts. I think this is like the juiciest part of the game, so I'm gonna put up a timeline of the most important parts.

478: Pug agrees with VMD that scum would have been bussing DN from the get-go; also doesn't like SC hammering in mid-discussion

(potential link pug to vmd)

479: buttonmen "SuperMegaDuperUltraConfirmVote: SerialClergyman" and wants to finish imprint discussion

(obsession with imprinting before flips, and since he's been the front-runner for imprints this is pretty much him begging for imprint)

480: Messiah votes SC with no other explanation or discussion
481: SC explains he was afraid of scum getting imprinted so that's why he hammered DN; says starbuck is scummier now than ever before
482: farside imprints pug and buttonmen, and foses SC
483: VMD votes SC, says his DN hammer was an obv bus, imprints a whopping 5 people, vmd, buttonmen, messiah, limerick,

(later adds pug) (this imprint of so many people strikes me as effective way to imprint buddies by hiding them with townes, and encourage imprinting in general)

487:SC asks plum, pug, elvis to vote him, better he dies and we see he's town and was serious about everything. It will stop scum from getting some quick imprints

(love to see an explanation from somebody why SC would play like this as scum)

490: farside posts a lovely tomato pic and votes EK
491: SC asks farside to put her vote on him instead
492: buttonmen asks farside to move her vote to SC
497: farside votes vmd
498: SC asks farside to vote him again
503: pug imprints buttonman, pug, plum
508:buttonman imprints only himself

(so concerned we get imprints done, but only willing to help himself get one)

509: limerick imprints himself and buttonmen, says not happy with the lynch without imprinting

(not happy with the lynch even though it was scum?)

511:reck imprints himself, messiah, hates on SC
512: SC asks reck to vote him
517: Plum imprints herself, elvis ...votes starbuck
538:Reck asks farside "what if it's a town vig?"

(seems like such a setup for giving mafia an excuse to use their kill and claim town vig)

541: reck votes SC, calls his DN vote a buss

(exactly what VMD said when she votes SC also)

My current thinking based on the above are: reck/vmd/buttonmen=scummiest

My attempt at a TLDR:

Buttonmen -
1)pre-emptive damage control on the DN lynch, like he expected DN to flip scum, does not make sense for someone who wasn't voting DN and specifically stated DN was not his biggest suspect.
2)obsession with imprinting before we get info from flips -AND- only imprinting himself

Reckoner -
1)Wanting imprints before lynches
2)Going with the popular wagons
3)Asking about situation of town getting a vig imprint - setting up a mafia able to make a kill and then claim town vig
4)Saying SC's DNvote was on OBVbus, (which is what VMD said too), as well as other links to VMD (who I also think is scummy)
5)Said farside was "digging herself a hole" which sounds to me like he thinks she is town making herself look bad

VMD -
1)Imprinting 5 people - good way to hide imprint votes for buddies and encourage too much imprinting
2)Said SC's DNvote was an OBVbus without really explaining defending that
3)Talk of DN's behavior in the scumQT


I really would like thoughts on my points above, from everyone, but I am especially interested in bouncing this off SC.

[elvis_knits]

Buttonman, hammering scum can be a bus, under certain circumstances. Considering that SC thought DN was scum for some time makes it less likely to be a buss, IMO.

Also, hammering scum, under any circumstances, is more pro-town than trying to convince the town NOT to lynch scum. Further arguing that if we lynch scum, we should atleast get some imprints in ahead of the flip. Which is the most pro-scum plan possible.

That's what you advocated. The most pro-scum plan possible.

I'm opposed to a DN lynch at the moment. Partially because right now it would mean

0

imprints getting handed out today/tonight.

So anyone hammering DN before we can figure out what the plan is in regard to imprints I will assume your scum.

[elvis_knits]

When did I say I didn't want DN lynched? I did want to finish the discussion regrading imprints so that it didn't interfer with the proceeding days. The quote clearly shows that so I'm curious as to what your tyring to say with it?

Well, I'm just going off the way you were postponing his lynch and how you never voted DN. If you wanted him lynched you should have voted him.

You have a fair amount of interaction with DN day1, but it's all pretty nice to him and trying to draw him out and explain himself, but you never talk about him as scum until you say that SC is bussing DN. Isn't that a little backwards? If you think SC is scum bussing DN scum, you should be all for that, and all in favor of lynching DN, but you wanted SC dead first. DN only became scum to you when you could connect him to SC by shouting buss.

This is the first time you say DN might be scum:

There's so many things wrong with that plan, infact with DN"s sudden push for his own policy lynch then you presenting this "plan" it seems to me your planning a bussing that gives your a free mislynch, gives mafia 2 power roles.

Before that you never said you thought DN was scum. You only said it if you could make SC seem like scum too.

[elvis_knits]

I'd like to know if anyone thinks this is as bad as I do:

Shooting is investigating.

[elvis_knits]

WTF

You find out their allignment by killing them. So, yeah, you find out they're allignment, but they're dead no matter what their allignment is. Sort of final, no? You have no recourse if they're town.

A vig is not considered an investigative role.

VIG =/= COP

A cop, or other investigative role, is able to bring info to the town that he alone has access to, and is helpful to the town in deciding lynches. If the person is dead, the town has nothing to decide, no input in the process.

[elvis_knits]

I agree with you farside. Let's see what Buttonmen thinks.

Buttonmen:

If someone kills at night they should be autolynched, unless the kill is on scum.

Agree/disagree?

[elvis_knits]

No, if somebody dies and that person is not scum, we find out who is responsible for it and we lynch them.

The reason we have to have this policy is that

if we dont we are giving scum a free pass to kill and claim that it was a vig kill.

We cannot allow that.

If scum are going to NK, they are going to have to lie about it, because that increases our chances of spotting a lie.

[elvis_knits]

I was referring to how you never said DN was scummy until you said that SC was bussing DN.

Do you want me to quote all your comments to DN and show how you didn't make much judgement on hims being scummy or not? YOU NEVER SAID DN WAS SCUMMY OR ANTI-TOWN UNTIL YOU SAID SC WAS BUSSING DN. If you did, prove me wrong, because I can't see it. I see you saying that his ideas are "terribad." Terribad=/=scummy.

It took you until your ISO 15 to even comment on DN's plan...

@Deathnote

, Empowering everyone is a terrible terrible terribad idea.

And you NEVER "BADGERED" DN. I can show you how to badger someone -- I know how to do it. You never badgered DN. You said stuff like this:

If I unimprint someone, its because i don't get a town vibe from them. Lew's post seem off.

He lacks as opinion on the issues of the game which everyone should have an opinion on at the moment.

Why do you find the need to call me out like that? Has someone been answering questions for me and making it seem like I am not fit to give responses for myself?

Issues discussed this game:

1. The controversy over the various plans people have suggested, my plan of imprinting everyone being one such topic.

2. The issues of Starbuck seemingly defending me against Elvis for coming up with said plan above.

3. SerialClergyman attacking Starbuck for defending me, and inadvertently defending Elvis in the process.

See it strikes me if you had even read his posts he touched on two of them and placed a vote based on the third. So instead I have to assume you removed him from your list of canadites because he was taking flak from people, then when questioned as to why you removed it you made up a reason without checking. If I'm wrong I'd love to know what i missed as going with whatever is popular at the moment is not exactly the best scum hunting technique.

Calling his blatantly scummy moves "not the best scum hunting technique" is like slapping a murderer with a wet noodle. It is not badgering!

I see no place where you call DN's actions scummy until your ISO 60, where you say SC is bussing DN. You call DN's actions terrible and terribad, and you tell him he's wrong and ask him softball questions, but you don't call him scum. Unless I'm missing it. Show me.

[elvis_knits]

Elvis your attacking over something that never happened again. Please point out where I claimed to have said that DN was scum?

I called DN play scummy, his plan antitown and called him on his “Oh woe is me it’s a policy lynch act” so this assertion you keep making that I found DN to be town is flawed.

Is what i said, Now your claiming that I flat out said DN was scum and demanding I back it up. Well considering I didn't claim to have said that, once again I'm thinking your purposfully misrepping people.

Okay, wut? I'm attacking "over something that never actually happened"?? "AGAIN"?? Back that shit up, yo.

You're saying that you called DN scummy and anti-town, but that I am wrong when I say that you called him scum?

When you call someone scummy, it's the same as saying they're scum. If you argue that it's not the same thing, you're splitting hairs. Arguing that it's different is a matter of degree and semantics.

This is what is happening, buttonmen:
1)You called DN's play and ideas terrible, but not scummy. To me, terrible is not the same as scummy. People can be wrong without being scummy. Disagree?
2)You only calles DN scum when you said SC was bussing him. And saying SC is bussin DN means they have to both be scum, so you are calling DN scum there.

Get it?

[elvis_knits]

WHEN YOU SAID SC WAS BUSSING DN, THAT MEANS YOU ARE CALLING BOTH OF THEM SCUM.

Do you seriously not get that concept?

[elvis_knits]

WHEN YOU SAID SC WAS BUSSING DN, THAT MEANS YOU ARE CALLING BOTH OF THEM SCUM.

Err except that never happend?

It did, actually:

There's so many things wrong with that plan, infact with DN"s sudden push for his own policy lynch then you presenting this "plan" it seems to me your planning a bussing that gives your a free mislynch, gives mafia 2 power roles.

Also presuming you aren't mafia bussing DN, how would the "Plan" be a town tell on elvis at all?
WHy do you think we should (Presuming we went along with this) imprint her?

*dies a little inside*

If you think the whole me + elvis vs SB + DN thing is an elaborate bus, you are so skeptical that you will never be able to come to a decision on anything, in my opinion. This automatic distrust of anyone who suggests anythign to advance the game

A) It isn't elabrate at all, bussing Death note isn't that hard do and you scum have a day time quick topic.
B) I seem to have come to a decsion on something quite fine.

[elvis_knits]

All of thoses (Please note their sequencial order):

Were directed at Serial after he posted this,

I have a suggestion. Lynch DN, imprint me. If I'm wrong, and he's town, I'll be the next lynch, and I'll tell you all what my power was and where I used it and what I found. If I'm right, we lynch Starbuck and imprint me and elvis.

Thoughts?

If you can't see how that made me suspcious then I can't really help you.

Now I direct you to the post you already quoted half of;

WHEN YOU SAID SC WAS BUSSING DN, THAT MEANS YOU ARE CALLING BOTH OF THEM SCUM.

Err except that never happend?

And SC if DN is scum don't even try to pull the bullshit logic "oh look he's scum so that means I'm / Elvis is town"

Is what I said.

Please note what I said after he hammered. Now if your accusing me of not being 100% sure that DN was scum, then your correct. However I don't see why that's a point against me.

Are you telling me that you didn't mean to say that SC was bussing DN, and that therefore they are both scum? Because you said that several times.

[elvis_knits]

Buttonmen, I am having trouble knowing what you thought of DN even now, I feel you are being purposely obtuse and not explaining your feelings.

Tell me how you felt about DN. You can explain where it changed and or/why, but I want to know what you thought about DN. Because this is getting stupid.

[elvis_knits]

SC, some of them are probably jealous, some are suspicious, and some are scum annoyed that we're not suspicious of each other. That's the way I think about it. It's particularly maddening for scum when players refuse to suspect each other, especially in a game where they are not guaranteed a NK to get rid of us.

[elvis_knits]

I agree, SC. I think suspicion of our "buddying" has been exploited to created an aura of paranoia in the town. It is hard to know who comes from a town perspective on it, and who has exploited it to their advantage because they're scum.

BTW, do you really think buttonmen is town? Reading his MD contributions and such he does strike me as quite sure of himself for a relative newbie. Do you think it is just his arrogance making him say "shooting is investigating" and sticking to it like he knows what he's talking about?

[elvis_knits]

The problem with saying "shooting is investigating" is that it is anti-town. It gives scum an excuse to kill and claim vig. It's a generally dangerous and irresponsible thing to advocate. Also misleading, since a vig is not considered an investigative role.

Also, he was pushing for imprints before lynches. I explained many times why we should imprint AFTER a lynch and then no-lynch. Otherwise you're robbing the town of info -- info that might have influenced who they want to imprint. He never really argued about it with me, but just kept trying for what he wanted, which was imprints, specifically himself since he's been the front-runner for days.

These are two big instances where he is advocating anti-town plans, pro-scum plans.

So either he is misguided townie who is so arrogant he won't even contemplate the situation where he might be wrong, or he's scum. He seems generally intelligent from what I see of him, which makes it seem more suspicious to me that he doesn't see how anti-town the things he is pushing really are. However, newbieness (inexperience) and arrogance could help account for this. Basically I think he's either wrong and really arrogant or scum.

[elvis_knits]

I didn't do any of the stuff you're saying in 1059. Haven't we already discussed all of it? And didn't we call a truce and become friends?

Farside, as for the concept of town people trying to find other townies... that has been a trend in mafia games more recently among certain players. I think you were taking a break when this started happening more. I'm thinking of rofl, tajo, and dgb, lots of players do it. Pronounce others town based on their reads. And it doesn't mean it's set in stone, but it means that's how you feel about them at the moment. It's always up for reassessment depending on what happens in the future.

[elvis_knits]

And saying someone is town doesn't necessarily paint a target on the player's back so the mafia know who to kill.

1)Scum don't even have a kill in this game unless we imprint them
2)In a normal game, a obvtown probably gets a doc protect so can't be killed immediately.
3)The obvtown person can usually get a lot of good done before getting NKed. If there is one who can unite the town and be trusted, they can do a lot of good, and if they get NKed later, it's totally worth it to me.

[elvis_knits]

buttonmen, scale of 1-10, how arrogant are you?

[elvis_knits]

That's not so bad. But your arrogance probably won't let you get an accurate read. Could be higher?

[elvis_knits]

Elvis who would you investistigate?

Reckoner (or VMD/replaced by Koc?)

They're my top suspects and I would use my investigation to either confirm my suspicion or avert a potential mislynch.

[elvis_knits]

pug, you commented on a tiny part of my comments about buttonmen. What did you think of my buttonmen case as a whole or my other cases?

Who are you suspicious of and why?

[elvis_knits]

I think I like this socrates dude.

[elvis_knits]

There's instances in his play that subtly hint at him being pro-town and it would take a scum of considerable finesse to plant them deliberately.

Can you elaborate on what these instances were?

[elvis_knits]

I'm not voting to imprint anyone either. I was sort of letting the replacements shake out before I decided.

Anyway... Buttonmen isn't voting to imprint anyone besides himself. Fun fact.

[elvis_knits]

So, reck, this starts to get less annoying and more informative for everyone when you give a new scum list and contribute more. Pot shots are fun but get us nowhere.

[elvis_knits]

I find myself agreeing with this, there's not enough pressure on people today however I also don't want to be the only one imprinted. Doing a re-read of certian exchanges and a ISO; will probably do something crazy tommorow.

Where was the craziness?!?!?

Button, are you planning on casting any more imprint votes? Seeing as you've been imprinted, I think people would be especially interested as to who you choose to vote a second imprint on.

We had three replacements today; I've been sitting back and seeing what they are bringing to the table and what they bring up along with how they interact with the town as that many replacments really disturbs my read on certian people.

You've been sitting back all game. After you tried to break the game the only person you've really gone after is SC.

[elvis_knits]

You have a lot of excuses.

I'm just telling you the truth here. If you're town, you're not doing a whole lot. All you've done this game is attack SC and imprint yourself.

[elvis_knits]

That's not the point. You've had all game, and all you've done is suggest the breaking strategy (which occurred over one day) and then attack SC and imprint yourself. If you don't have time for a summary post, just give us some of your opinions, even if you aren't going to quote stuff. If you're town you should be able to give thoughts without a massive amount of brainpower or time. More time is needed when you are scum trying to craft your opinions in an effort to swing the town a certain way or avoid contradicting yourself.

Like when you said "I've seen some things..." just tell us what these things are that have stuck out to you and why. Just off the top of your head. How about that?

[elvis_knits]

So we just had two player imprint limerick in two posts with no reasoning greater than "I get a town read" and "I'm going to imprint hammer him."

I'm really uncomfortable with that.

[elvis_knits]

I'm still not comfortable with only one person being imprinted tonight

I also don't want to be the only one imprinted

The buttonmen quote was from a few posts ago.

My question to both of you is... why?

You seem more focused on getting a certain number than imprinting according to people you are sure are town. Is that unclear? I am okay with people wanting to imprint more because they think certain players are town. I just think you should be imprinting because you think a person is town and not because you think more people in general should have imprints.

[elvis_knits]

So we just had two player imprint limerick in two posts with no reasoning greater than "I get a town read" and "I'm going to imprint hammer him."

For those clamoring for a brief summary of my thoughts; if you want longer then this you’re going to have to wait 24-36 hours

You were the one who wanted a brief blurb, agian more detailed thoughts in 24-36 hour, right now I'm about half way through best practise guidelines for postpartum assessments and the assessment of the pediatric client.

Do not blame me for your scummy moves! I asked for a blurb, not for you to imprint hammer somebody.

And saying you want to imprint hammer limerick is not even a blurb. It is the absence of information.

[elvis_knits]

I'm just trying to think what scum would want to do. If buttonmen is scum, does he want more people (town) to get imprints so that if he gets a NK he can use it and not be the only suspect? Or does he just want to stick with only himself being imprinted because if town people get imprinted, the risk to himself and the rest of his team is greater?

I'm toying with the idea of Limerick being a patsy in this case, but not sure the risk>reward.

[elvis_knits]

I think in some circumstances, maybe they would.

So you think I'm being paranoid?

[elvis_knits]

So, nobody has mentioned this...

If we're not happy with the way imprints happen, we can always decide to lynch a person to prevent them being imprinted.

I'm not sure I want to go that far at this point.

One reason I'm not sure if I want to do this is because I really like the plan we have going on of "lynch and wait to see the flip before imprinting, then imprint and no-lynch the next day." And throwing a lynch on at this point gums up the works.

I am still not comfortable with the last two imprint votes coming in two back-to-back posts. I guess it's possible that people are just geting impatient, like socrates said.

[elvis_knits]

-=Imprint Count #34=-

Hawaii (buttonmen)(6) - Hawaii(buttonmen), Kansas(farside), Ohio (KoC), Florida(limerick), Montana(pug), Iowa(reck)
Florida (limerick) (6) - Florida(limerick), Ohio(Koc), Kansas(farside), Colorado(CTD), Montana(pug), Hawaii(buttonmen)[

Of the six people voting for each imprint, we have 5 people occurring on each one:

buttonmen, limerick, KoC, farside, pug

That's pretty interesting that the lists are almost exactly the same.

[elvis_knits]

farside is almost certainly town. I imprinted her and declared her town 5 pages ago and she has not gotten a single imprint since. If she and two scum buddies ignored that gift then she's got amazing self-control.

So now that's clear, farside should convince herself elvis is town and we'll have a scumbusting trio of awesome.

True story.

If EK actually paid attention to Reck case instead of making saractic comments and proposing people we imprinted may be lynched I would think differently of her.

Hey farside, I said reckoner was scum too.

Reckoner -
1)Wanting imprints before lynches
2)Going with the popular wagons
3)Asking about situation of town getting a vig imprint - setting up a mafia able to make a kill and then claim town vig
4)Saying SC's DNvote was on OBVbus, (which is what VMD said too), as well as other links to VMD (who I also think is scummy)
5)Said farside was "digging herself a hole" which sounds to me like he thinks she is town making herself look bad

[elvis_knits]

I'm also not making sarcastic comments...

[elvis_knits]

-=Imprint Count #34=-

Hawaii (buttonmen)(6) - Hawaii(buttonmen), Kansas(farside), Ohio (KoC), Florida(limerick), Montana(pug), Iowa(reck)
Florida (limerick) (6) - Florida(limerick), Ohio(Koc), Kansas(farside), Colorado(CTD), Montana(pug), Hawaii(buttonmen)[

Of the six people voting for each imprint, we have 5 people occurring on each one:

buttonmen, limerick, KoC, farside, pug

That's pretty interesting that the lists are almost exactly the same.

Also, if I'm just being paranoid, and buttonmen and limerick are both town, I would expect the wagons to be all or mostly town.