Newbie 1725: Innocents, Inc. [Game Over!]

[Loopdan]

@Hark, what was your alignment in your last game, and what about your play from that game are you dissatisfied with?

VOTE: astroplants for not capitalizing their name.

[Loopdan]

Says the guy with four consecutive consonants.

[Loopdan]

Thor isn't my obsession, inactive ICs are my obsession.

Are you me?

And...
VOTE: Hark

[Loopdan]

MissTerry, this stage is called RVSfor, random voting stage. Players make up reasons for votes. It serves to get the game going when we have nothing to base votes on.

[Loopdan]

Literally hasn't even been a day yet, how are you classifying this as inactive? What makes Thor worse than the SEs who haven't posted yet?

Did you ever play with an inactive IC? And was that IC town-aligned?

Yes, Drixx was inactive town IC in my last game (1711).

[Loopdan]

Btw, I already have some townreads, but I won't tell them for now.

So is the purpose of this post to say trust me I'm smart, or something else?

[Loopdan]

Loopdan, do you have experience with Mafia outside this forum? You don't like a newbie to me at all.

I have played some mafia casually with family and friends. This is my second game of forum mafia. My first game was pretty interesting, and I learned a ton as it went along. I was tracker and survived to the end for a town win.

I suspect that I am older than most other players on MS, but I assure you I am a second-game newb.

[Loopdan]

Why Creature? Because he followed my vote on Blank, or for a different reason?

Because of this: "I would vote the IC, but I am afraid that'll make him be inactive, so I'll refrain from voting the IC and vote this ScumFace.". No need for such a deep explanation for the second post of the game. If he wants to vote Thor, he needs to just vote him. It's a RVS.

Also, #24 is very strange for this part of the game, but, anyway...

That's exactly the reason behind #24. I feel like Creature is trying to distance himself from Thor, while masking it behind the RVS vote for Blank.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Thor665

I think that quote alot of time has passed, and Thor's lack of presence is starting to make me feel uncomfortable. This vote is to encourage him to do his IC stuff when he comes. (If you are busy because of RL - sorry)

There is so much wrong with this post, but I can't decide if it's poor town play or scummy.

[Loopdan]

I'm not getting any particular reads yet, I can't tell if some people are acting scummy or are simply playing the game.

Who do you think is acting scummy?

[Loopdan]

Loop and Creature, I don't really understand you ;-;

Instead of letting the RVS phase proceed naturally, it looks like you're trying to make forced questionings (either for town cred or to see who's most likely to overreact).

Didn't we exit RVS when you tagged a vote as serious in #44?

And your fascination with the IC is looking stranger with each passing post.

[Loopdan]

Loop and Creature, I don't really understand you ;-;

I'm easy to figure out. When I'm town, I get very involved and scum-hunt while somehow managing to look slightly scummy. When I'm scum... I don't know, because I've never been scum.

[Loopdan]

Because you're scum!!!!

Just kidding. That was an RVS vote.

[Loopdan]

I think your posts are town, except for #54. That one seems odd as a reply when I just said your vote and accompanying explanation were either poor town play or scummy.

[Loopdan]

Was this RVS?

That's me helping you pressure Hark so that I can sort him.

[Loopdan]

#69 is directed at Hark, btw.

[Loopdan]

So, do you really disagree with my reasoning for the Thor vote?

Yes.

Thor may be scum, but you got there by connecting him to Creature's "distancing." That seems a pretty low barrier to vote someone, especially when they haven't even posted yet.

[Loopdan]

UNVOTE: Hark as we seem to be out of RVS.

[Loopdan]

VOTE: Loopban

Would like this.

First he comes with 52 and then he says it was made to help me pressure Hark, but I don't see any pressure in saying "yeah this post is scummy", unless he wanted to do a reaction test, but that would look poorly made. Later on he unvotes Hark to exit his RVS vote (why did it take so long though?), but he said he wanted to help me pressure Hark, so I don't see why he would unvote.

Maybe because it no longer made sense to pretend I thought Hark was scummy.

[Loopdan]

Also, since Creature is keep pushing on Thor, instead of backing out (like I think he would if they were scum partners) I no longer think it's Thor/Creature.

This doesn't make sense, because while Creature

has

continued to post about Thor, Creature's vote is on me, which does indeed look like distancing now. And yet you've reached the opposite conclusion.

[Loopdan]

Creature, did you know that Thor was deliberately being inactive when you made your first post about him being inactive?

This is a really good question.

I thought Hark's Creature-Thor distancing theory was bonkers at first, but it does seem like the kind of thing a SE and IC team would pre-plan.

Here is what we know:
Thor has not posted.
Creature called Thor out for lurking very early in the game, which other players viewed as premature. Yet it turned out to be true.
Creature is voting Loopdan, yet is focusing all posts on Thor's lurking.

So I am asking myself which is more likely:

1) Town!Thor is avoiding this thread for reasons, and Town!Creature called him out for lurking really early.
2) Town!Thor is avoiding this thread for reasons, and Scum!Creature wants to lynch the IC.
3) Scum!Thor is avoiding this thread for reasons, and Town!Creature called him out for lurking really early.
4) Scum!Thor is avoiding this thread for reasons, and Scum!Creature is executing their pre-planned distancing.


VOTE: Thor

[Loopdan]

Getting the conclusion that Thor and I are scum buddies is too reachy.

I agreed (and said as much) before, but you called him out for lurking super early. And then he did lurk. Almost like you knew he would.

[Loopdan]

Yes, that's the first time you used the term lurking. But let's not forget posts #7 and #12--

I would vote the IC, but I am afraid that'll make him be inactive, so I'll refrain from voting the IC

And yet he's inactive.

[Loopdan]

Say Thor keeps lurking (and prod-dodging) while I keep calling him scum, who would you vote off first?

My vote is on Thor.

[Loopdan]

- Loop: A question for you: What's your position on Hark now? You seemed to a reaction test. What's your read on him?

Hark looks town to me in every post but one (check my ISO if you want to see it).

[Loopdan]

The way he backed out from his read looks towny.

Who is this referring to?

[Loopdan]

When Thor (or whoever fills his slot) finally shows up he needs to give his read on Creature. I will not move my vote until this happens.

[Loopdan]

My meta is one game (1711). Feel free to go ISO me there and see. But yeah, I agree that meta isn't all that useful. If I was scum I would be making every attempt to play similarly to how I played in my last game.

[Loopdan]

Loop and Creature, I don't really understand you ;-;

I'm easy to figure out. When I'm town, I get very involved and scum-hunt while somehow managing to look slightly scummy. When I'm scum... I don't know, because I've never been scum.

This is the post that bothers me, a direct claim of not mafia. I don't see the purpose of this kind of a post from town.

It serves two purposes:

1) It offers Hark a way to better understand my play, which he seemed perplexed by.
2) It is a clear claim that I'm town, which scum have a harder time constructing convincingly. It's common for players to make such claims.

[Loopdan]

LoopDan - Scum. I don't like post #64. Trying to defend scummyness by stating that his town play comes across scummy. Don't like #70 and #84. States that he voted Hark to help pressure, but then unvotes and states he is unvoting because it look's like we're out of RVS.

Creature was pushing Hark. I joined in to see how Hark would respond, not because I found Hark to be scummy. Then I unvoted at the end of RVS.

That makes me scum?

[Loopdan]

When Thor (or whoever fills his slot) finally shows up he needs to give his read on Creature. I will not move my vote until this happens.

[Loopdan]

LoopDan - Scum. I don't like post #64. Trying to defend scummyness by stating that his town play comes across scummy. Don't like #70 and #84. States that he voted Hark to help pressure, but then unvotes and states he is unvoting because it look's like we're out of RVS.

Creature was pushing Hark. I joined in to see how Hark would respond, not because I found Hark to be scummy. Then I unvoted at the end of RVS.

That makes me scum?

Did you vote with a purpose or vote because it was RVS? You stated that we appeared to be out of RVS in #59 but then waited until #84 to unvote. You just don't seem to be telling it straight.

OK, I see what you mean now. #59 was me pointing out a discrepancy in Creature's argument. I was still voting without reads at that point, so RVS wasn't over in my mind.

And to clarify, RVS voting doesn't mean you have no purpose for the vote. Typically in RVS, wagons form to see how players respond to pressure. So yes, there was a purpose for my Hark vote, even though it was RVS. RVS ends when your votes start being based on reads.

[Loopdan]

Why are you voting for Loopdan if you believe he is townish?

Those comments, save one, are in chronological order of my read - the townish comment was on Page 1, he started to slide after that.

Also, that's quite a few votes on him already. I think he's at L-2?

L-3 I believe, since Creature unvoted, but I may have missed one and maybe he's at L-2.

@Thor-- Why no explanation on your vote? What led you to change your early read of me from town to scum?

Also, your catchup post gave a townish read on Creature. I would like to hear your reasons why. His early play made no sense to me, when he essentially predicted that you would be lurking.

[Loopdan]

When Thor (or whoever fills his slot) finally shows up he needs to give his read on Creature. I will not move my vote until this happens.

Currently townish, but I'd like to see him field my questions to him.

I look forward to your answer too.

Answer to what? If you mean my read on Creature, I'm null.

[Loopdan]

@Thor-- Why no explanation on your vote? What led you to change your early read of me from town to scum?

If I explained why you are scum would you ever agree with me? Don't really see the point.

Your explanation can help me sort

you

. And there has to be value in that for town!Thor.

I changed my read on you from town to scum because though you opened kind of nicely with actual scumhunting but then shifted to saying a whole lot of nothing and also advancing nothing. At this point I feel like you're actively trying not to advance anything - just coasting.

You have a point here about scum hunting. I felt engaged in the game at the beginning, but it's frustrating that there really isn't anything to work off of at this point, other than everyone's reactions to your lurking.

When Thor (or whoever fills his slot) finally shows up he needs to give his read on Creature. I will not move my vote until this happens.

Currently townish, but I'd like to see him field my questions to him.

I look forward to your answer too.

Answer to what? If you mean my read on Creature, I'm null.

Not that, I actually asked you and Hark a question, but apparently put it inside a quote so it was harder to spot - so here they are again.

@Hark - if I'm scum because my scumbuddy is distancing from me, why aren't you voting my scumbuddy? For me to be scum doesn't it require him to be scum? So, basically you're voting the less likely of the two of us to be scum...?

@Loop - if I'm scum because my scumbuddy is bussing me over awareness of my impending lurk early, why aren't you voting my scumbuddy? For me to be scum doesn't it require him to be scum? So, basically you're voting the less likely of the two of us to be scum...?

Creature actually asked me earlier about who I thought was scummier. I said my vote was on you, but gave no reason. It was because you weren't here. And I disagree that Creature must be scum for you to be scum.

You also didn't answer the question that wasn't clogged up in quotes when I asked you about how your playstyle was easy to read.

I guess everybody thinks they should be easy to read as town. In my other game I was pushed pretty hard most of Day 1 (I was put at L-1 twice), but survived and made it the rest of the game as universally town-read by all but scum.

Right now it seems more likely that town!Thor is pushing the only wagon so he can sort, than scum!Thor is trying to lynch town. So...

UNVOTE:

But I don't really know where to go from here.

[Loopdan]

Creature actually asked me earlier about who I thought was scummier. I said my vote was on you, but gave no reason. It was because you weren't here. And I disagree that Creature must be scum for you to be scum.

Can you explain your scum case on me that doesn't require Creature to be scum?

Uh, I don't have a case against you. I'm not voting you. My point is simply that it is possible for you to be scum without Creature being your buddy.

I guess everybody thinks they should be easy to read as town. In my other game I was pushed pretty hard most of Day 1 (I was put at L-1 twice), but survived and made it the rest of the game as universally town-read by all but scum.

Okay...but so far your offered thoughts on this are that you have no idea how you'd look as scum, and also that, as scum,

you'd look just like you do as town.

Which would make you hard to read, or unknown difficulty to read, right?
So why say that you would be easy?

emphasis added.

No, I said I'd try to play like my last (town) game if I were scum. And there was a natural progression to that topic of conversation that your summary is misconstruing and attempting to make look scummy. I don't believe you are scum-reading me for this.

Thor, I think you are just testing the wagon, because you are grasping at weak arguments for scum!Loopdan. I get it-- Pressuring the wagon is good for town. But please have the sense to get off before there is an L-1 vote.

[Loopdan]

By saying that he's never played scum he is saying that he is not scum and therefore is town, not a wise claim to make in my opinion if you want to stay alive and help the town.

This. Makes. No. Sense.

[Loopdan]

Would like Loop to answer the case on him.

What case?

I'm being scumread for saying I am town and for talking about self-meta.

[Loopdan]

His vote was RVS and he didn't seem to have intent to pressure Hark when he cast his vote. 52 can't be considered pressure post.

So you don't think naked votes can cause pressure?
I do.
Why don't you?

He pointed his vote was RVS when Hark questioned why he was voting him. Then he said it was actually pressure when I questioned post 52.

I've already explained this...

And to clarify, RVS voting doesn't mean you have no purpose for the vote. Typically in RVS, wagons form to see how players respond to pressure. So yes, there was a purpose for my Hark vote, even though it was RVS. RVS ends when your votes start being based on reads.

RVS doesn't mean you have to roll a die.

[Loopdan]

Creature v. Thor is going nowhere. I tend to think Thor's inactivity is more likely a town indicator than scum. What does he gain other than undue attention by avoiding the game? Also, it would be against the spirit of the IC role to do this intentionally.


I'd like to hear more from BlankFace and Draynth.

[Loopdan]

Uh, I don't have a case against you. I'm not voting you. My point is simply that it is possible for you to be scum without Creature being your buddy.

I agree that it is possible for me to be scum without Creature as my buddy.
When you voted me your expressed case had Creature as my buddy - I was discussing that.
I feel like you're trying to avoid answering the question.

I already answered this. I said it was because you weren't present in the game.

No, I said I'd try to play like my last (town) game if I were scum. And there was a natural progression to that topic of conversation that your summary is misconstruing and attempting to make look scummy. I don't believe you are scum-reading me for this.

You are, again, avoiding the question.
The question was "why would you be easy to spot as scum?"
Can you try answering it now?

Did I say I would be easy to spot as scum? No, when Hark said he didn't understand me, I said I was easy to figure out because this is how I play town--

Loop and Creature, I don't really understand you ;-;

I'm easy to figure out. When I'm town, I get very involved and scum-hunt while somehow managing to look slightly scummy. When I'm scum... I don't know, because I've never been scum.

I guess you are trying to make a case on this because later, when others dismissed my self-meta, I agreed with them--

My meta is one game (1711). Feel free to go ISO me there and see. But yeah, I agree that meta isn't all that useful. If I was scum I would be making every attempt to play similarly to how I played in my last game.

So is that it? That's the case? According to you, I'm scum because I said I'm playing the same as last game when I was town, and then I agreed that meta isn't that useful and that being aware of my meta scum!me would try to act the same as I did last game when I was town.

That's weak, and you know it. That's why I don't think you really have me as a scumread.

[Loopdan]

Creature v. Thor is going nowhere. I tend to think Thor's inactivity is more likely a town indicator than scum. What does he gain other than undue attention by avoiding the game? Also, it would be against the spirit of the IC role to do this intentionally.

That would indicate it as a null tell.

I can't tell if you are reading my post wrong or what.

#215 is me calling your inactivity more likely town than scum, in case you missed that.

[Loopdan]

Sorry I'm not making any WoT. Not my playstyle. I suspect Blank and Draynth for focusing solely on Thor/Creature debate AND not posting any other content.

Again, you state that I'm not doing anything, but that's patently false. I've already said that we need to move on from Thor's activity level and start focusing on other things, but until Blank, Draynth, Luca start weighing in, I don't have a whole lot to analyze. That's almost 50% of the players.

Emphasis added.

^This.

The pressure needs to be on these three.

VOTE: BlankFace for literally 0% scumhunting. Draynth and Lucca have at least attempted to engage the game and ask questions, even if their contributions are inadequate.

[Loopdan]

I'm done answering questions from Thor that I've already answered, or when he puts words in my mouth. I've been reading him as town pushing the wagon, but every post is starting to look scummier than the last. I'm spending almost all my time trying to defend myself from his unreasonableness, which doesn't help me find scum.

[Loopdan]

I am thinking there must have on scum in BlankFace/Draynth.

My head says it's BlankFace but my gut says it's Draynth.

You need to explain that last sentence. It looks like you are testing the waters without committing or giving reasons.

[Loopdan]

I'm not sure what to think of the fact that none of you have asked me my opinion on Hark's defense of me. That seems like such an obvious thing to ask if you were trying to determine my alignment and any possible connection to Hark.

[Loopdan]

I'm not sure what to think of the fact that none of you have asked me my opinion on Hark's defense of me. That seems like such an obvious thing to ask if you were trying to determine my alignment and any possible connection to Hark.

Your lack of comment on it was info enough for me.
But if you need someone to ask you about it before commenting on something happening in the game I suppose we can wait around and see if anyone obliges you.

So you don't think it's odd that nobody asked my thoughts on Hark's over the top defense of me? And how can you say I didn't comment on it when I literally just brought it up? I didn't comment immediately because I was waiting to see others' responses to Hark's posts about me.

And if anybody cares, the main problem I have with Hark's defense of me is that early in the game he said I didn't play like a newb, and he questioned me about it, yet he uses my newbness to defend me now.

[Loopdan]

@BlankFace-- You have 5 total posts, which have done nothing to advance town. Play the game or replace out already.

^This is where the wagon should be. Why our experienced players aren't helping with this is beyond me.

[Loopdan]

I'll be posting a full readslist tomorrow when I get home from work, I've been extremely busy the last few days and my allergies are ripping me a new one at the minute. Apologies for the lack of content

Any progress on that reads list?

[Loopdan]

@innocentvillager -- Requesting an updated VC, please.

[Loopdan]

What is it...about 4 hours before we can ask to a prod for BlankFace? With Draynth and Luca not far behind. Those three really need to contribute something or ask to replace out...not helping.

Your power is in your vote.

[Loopdan]

Town!Thor, I'd like to see you scum hunt, rather than just post walls of logic nitpicking. You look like you've dived deep into a pool of confirmation bias.

Scum!Thor, your inability to advance reads looks bad. Your "scum hunting" is almost entirely reactive.

[Loopdan]

BlankFace's re-entry into the game looks more likely town than scum.

UNVOTE:

I do want to clarify one thing...

<<clipped>>

I think my major issue with Loopdan is that there is a lack of independent hunting from the slot. The Hark pressure started with Creature, IIRC. The Creature/Thor scumteam theory came from Hark. Other than that, I haven't seen anything that could be considered his own line of though. I can understand following up on a townread's ideas but even then, you still have to have your own. The way he backs off of Thor. The way he follows PenquinPower. There's a trend of him sheeping.

Penguin is voting me. How am I sheeping?


@Lucca, where is your promised big catchup post?

[Loopdan]

<<snip!>>

BlankFace

: moves to Leantown. I like his reads, and while I do not necessarily understand his logic behind lurking, at least he offers one that makes some sense to me.

<<snip!>>

You like his reads? Explain this. His reads are not at all similar to your reads.

Spoiler: PP's readslist and BF's reads

New readlist
{}
{Creature, Thor, MissTerry, BlankFace}
{Lucca, Draynth}
{Hark}
{LoopDan}

I kinda buy into Blank simply because he has been logging onto the site.

I'm literally

always

logged into the site. I have a tab open and never turn off my computer. Plus, I have been lurking and skimming. Waiting, really.

ISOs:

Creature - Null/Scum. I started lurking to see his reaction. I wanted to see if he'd jump onto me like he jumped onto Thor. He did, albeit a little later on than I really expected. I disagree with 103, but we can save that for after the game. Just saying that there are town reasons to lurk. That said, most of his 'hunting' revolves around pushing anyone who is lurking. I also need to look into how the Draynth wagon built to gauge my feelings of Draynth going from strong town to scum in Creature's eyes. As far as I can see, Creature doesn't say why he went from reconsidering Draynth except for him going under the radar. All of this makes him difficult to sort out. Because his opening is either explosive/paranoid town or just a very strange attempt to look like he's hunting. With Thor actually not jumping into the game until pretty late, it's not easy to sort that out. But his hunting after that has been incredibly subpar. I would love to see him explain his readslist from 203.

Draynth - Eh. Entrance is strong. Falls off later on. I can understand RL getting in the way so I'll wait for the replacement to come in. Null

Hark - Don't like 24. I mean, in RVS it's kind of okay? Since the push out of RVS was Creature's push on Thor's inactivity, I kind of see where Hark is coming from but I don't see the evidence to support it. Following it up with 46 though makes it worse. Same issue I had with Creature, IF you have suspicions, why push the person who isn't posting? It's worse in Hark's case because he was pairing Creature with Thor. Why push someone you can't really pressure? A Creature vote would have given him MUCH more info, instead he went after the person who couldn't give him much of anything at the time. This isn't hunting, unless he was looking for Creature's reaction? And Creature's reaction was to vote Thor, 51. Does not look like bussing to me. I don't think that's the case though, because he continues to assert a Creature/Thor scumteam 60. So I'm kind of confused as to where Hark is coming from here. Hark does eventually drop the Creature/Thor theory in 108. I just don't like how he went after that. The way he tried to apply pressure is off. 211 is much better. That post is town as hell. And his interactions with Thor were decent as well. If I look past the timing of his response to Creature voting Thor, Hark is probably my top town at this point.

Loopdan - 52 is gross. If there's a lot wrong with 46 and Loopdan can't decide if it's scum or bad town play, why in the hell is he not putting pressure there? There's nothing to respond to with this post. Loopdan doesn't offer anything other than "I don't like this and can't make up my mind." Limits interactions, tries to make it look like he is hunting. He eventually follows up to say it was to help sort Hark out. I can sort of see it in 115 and on. Taking a theory from a town read and running with it is kind of okay in my book. He adds more pressure onto that line of thought again.

It seems like people were pushing Loopdan because of his Hark vote? Or for no apparent reason at all, looking at the quote tree in 181. Loop's reaction to Thor's [bullshit] explanation I like. 204 I don't like 204 though. There

was

a case, or at least a suspicion, that Thor was scum with Creature. Loop even pushes that in 115. So even if the vote goes away, that line of thought was still there.

I think my major issue with Loopdan is that there is a lack of independent hunting from the slot. The Hark pressure started with Creature, IIRC. The Creature/Thor scumteam theory came from Hark. Other than that, I haven't seen anything that could be considered his own line of though. I can understand following up on a townread's ideas but even then, you still have to have your own. The way he backs off of Thor. The way he follows PenquinPower. There's a trend of him sheeping.


BRB: Need to go get some smokes.

Lucca: Why does anyone have Lucca as a townread right now?

I don't like how all Blank posts are all about Thor/Creature, also, I have some other reasons to vote him, also.

Sums up almost all of his posts too. Excluding his first two RVS posts, the next four are Creature/Thor related. You could say five if you count that the question posed to Hark in 57. In addition to that he votes me for that and for "other reasons", and when Thor asked him what those reasons were, he never followed through. So I will ask again; what about me besides lurking/focusing on Creature makes me scum? Other than that, he hasn't really added anything. Looking forward to his catch-up post. Scum.

Miss Terry - Starts the Loopdan wagon, if I'm reading correctly, because of Loopdan's assertion of being town. Personally, that assertion to me is NAI. But more importantly, MT says that a Loopdan post is bugging them and then follows through with it. Actively hunting, showing their math, so to speak. Pretty town. Not much else to add. Nothing pings me.

PenguinPower - Offers the first real valid reasons I can see to scumread Loopdan based off of that self-meta post. Instead of focusing on the assertion and the meta, focuses on the way it was said. 220 is town as hell. Makes me rethink my position on Hark, but I'd have to go back and reread that exchange for myself with context. Actually, reading through Penguin's posts, Hark does seem to be throwing out misreps left and right. Which is super odd. My issue with Hark's push onto Penguin is that Penguin replaced in and then was pretty much on the ball. I'm not seeing a lack of content or focus from Penguin in any of these posts so I don't see where Hark is coming from. Either he is seeing the post count and going off of that? Or.... I don't know. I see nothing that Hark is saying in Penguin's play. Penguin replaces Hark as top town, Hark drops down townlean.

Thor:

Apologies for my lateness - I blame the mod for not giving me a game link and therefore it never going into my bookmark queue.

No offense, but poor excuse. It took a click to find this game. You got a PM saying the day had started. You not checking it is not the mods fault. It took me two clicks to find the game and bookmark it after I got my roll pm. You had two PMs before you had to be prodded but whatever. This is probably NAI.

I agree with Hark's sentiments about Thor's Loop vote and do not like his 176. If Loopdan was sliding, why not comment on it? It pretty much amounts to a naked vote and when prompted, he doesn't really offer why Loopdan started to slide.

If I explained why you are scum would you ever agree with me? Don't really see the point.

I changed my read on you from town to scum because though you opened kind of nicely with actual scumhunting but then shifted to saying a whole lot of nothing and also advancing nothing. At this point I feel like you're actively trying not to advance anything - just coasting.

Bullshit. First of all, the bolded. A LOT of this game is pushing and seeing where it goes. If you aren't pushing, you aren't hunting. Jumped onto the Loopdan wagon and then when called out for not giving reasoning, this is the worst thing that he could have said. There is ALWAYS a point to show your thought process as town unless your are gambiting or reaction testing. And since reaction testing is such an easy cop out and this does NOT look like reaction testing, I have to take it at face value. Second, I've already covered that Loop was saying a decent amount. If anyone was coasting, Dray and I should have been the first that Thor jumped on. Everything about this is off and the vote itself is opportunistic. Loopdan says something close to where I'm coming from; transparency helps town and Thor shuts it down by saying that he doesn't have to be transparent to Loop because he is scumreading Loop. The issue with that is that there are seven other players in this game who would LOVE to see where Thor is coming from here. Ignoring them, making yourself deliberately obtuse, and hiding behind your vote does not help down. Does not advance anything.

Then start the Creature back and forths and now I do have a reason to bitch about this:

There is nothing I said that implies I don't check my inbox - in fact I actively stated that I had, which would be the opposite of saying I don't.
Why did that confuse you?

It's confusing as fuck because if you check your inbox you'd know the game had started. And even if you didn't have a game link, it is not hard to find. It is pure laziness. So yeah, you were lurking. You

knew

the game was ongoing and chose to do nothing. Don't blame the mod for your laziness.

Reading through these walls, Thor just feels slimy. Scum.

VOTE: Thor

[Loopdan]

Do you see it? In the distance?

It's headed this way!

Is it a tsunami?

No...

It's Thor's incoming anti-BlankFace wall of irrefutable logic!

[Loopdan]

@PP-- BlankFace has expressed mixed thoughts on me. That's far from your scumread. He voted Thor, who is in your lean-town tier. He has Lucca as scum, and Hark as town.

You say you and BlankFace agree enough on your important reads, but you don't share a single scumread.

Penguin says scum is Loopdan-Hark.
BlankFace says scum is Thor-Lucca.

Yet you like his reads?

[Loopdan]

What you've left us with is the implication that BlankFace reading you and MissTerry as town is what is important to you.

[Loopdan]

Ok, but you two still don't share a scumread, yet Penguin says you agree enough on his important reads.

Blank, am I off on 298?

[Loopdan]

Ok, but you two still don't share a scumread, yet Penguin says you agree enough on his important reads.

Blank, am I off on 298?

This whole post is directed at Blank's last post.

[Loopdan]

@PP-- BlankFace has expressed mixed thoughts on me. That's far from your scumread. He voted Thor, who is in your lean-town tier. He has Lucca as scum, and Hark as town.

You say you and BlankFace agree enough on your important reads, but you don't share a single scumread.

Penguin says scum is Loopdan-Hark.
BlankFace says scum is Thor-Lucca.

Yet you like his reads?

Yes. I like his reads. I like the content of what he says about you even if not calling you scum. I like the content of what he says about Hark even if not calling him scum. I don't really care about Lucca because I am null on him due to lack of posting. I disagree on Thor but that's ok. Just because we don't have identical positioning on the town to scum spectrum doesn't mean I don't like what he says, nor does it mean a convincing argument couldn't be made to bring me closer to his reads, and I'm sure one could bring him to mine.

Yes. As much as my gut says you're scum doesn't mean that I'm not willing to change that alignment. I just haven't seen a convincing argument to.

I'm not saying you have to have identical positioning on your reads in order to say you like Blank's reads. I just don't get you saying it when your scum reads are so dissimilar.

[Loopdan]

I'll be reading this later tonight

Meanwhile

VOTE: Loopdan

L-1

Because why not ?

Um, you just put me at L-1 without reading the game? How exactly is that pro-town? If there is newb-scum off the wagon, they can derp-hammer. If this happens, I want you auto-lynched Day 2 after I flip town.

Your slot looked scummy before, and this just makes it worse.

VOTE: Shadow

@Hark-- I'm at home without a computer today, so an extensive reads list is out of the question, but I'll put my thoughts down on all slots at some point later today. Basically my readslist is the same as yours, but with MissTerry and Lucca each one tier scummier, and Thor's and Shadow's positions swapped. And I have you as town.

[Loopdan]

I actually love Shadow's entrance to the game - admittedly I think aggressive wagons are pro-town, so there is that bias.

Aggressive wagons are fine. Putting someone at L-1 in a newbie game when you haven't read the thread and you are playing a scummy slot is not pro-town.

How about an IC reminder about the importance of intent to hammer? That might be something pro-town that you could do about now.

[Loopdan]

So let me see if I have this correct-- Thor likes Shadow's scummy reasonless L-1 voting entrance, but not Blank's detailed reasoned "entrance."

If town can't see this, then we deserve to lose.

[Loopdan]

Correction: Thor "loves" Shadow's entrance.

[Loopdan]

I still want to hear thoughts from the experienced players on...

Spoiler: 297 & 298

@PP-- BlankFace has expressed mixed thoughts on me. That's far from your scumread. He voted Thor, who is in your lean-town tier. He has Lucca as scum, and Hark as town.

You say you and BlankFace agree enough on your important reads, but you don't share a single scumread.

Penguin says scum is Loopdan-Hark.
BlankFace says scum is Thor-Lucca.

Yet you like his reads?

What you've left us with is the implication that BlankFace reading you and MissTerry as town is what is important to you.

[Loopdan]

@Loop - also, you seem to be calling me scum, yet you're voting Shadow for a pretty clear reaction test vote - a method you yourself cited using earlier in the game. WHy does that make him more scummy than me, especially since I have Blank voting me for all those details that you like?

I'm not sure you should be comparing me voting the second vote as a reaction test in RVS to Shadow voting me to L-1 without reading the thread.

Why is he scummier than you? He was in a scummy slot and his entrance into the game was pro-scum. Didn't I already say that? And you may be overestimating my scum-read on you. You've been null to me for much of this game, but recent events have made you lean-scum in my eyes.

[Loopdan]

^ Btw, coincidentally that's the order of my reads (except I think Loop is townier than Thor665):

Harkonnen97
MissTerry
lucca6411
BlankFace
PenguinPower
Loopdan
Thor665
Shadow_step

Why is your vote still on BlankFace?

[Loopdan]

I'm not sure you should be comparing me voting the second vote as a reaction test in RVS to Shadow voting me to L-1 without reading the thread.

I am exactly comparing it -

are you claiming his one and only scumplan there was to vote you, announce it was L-1, and then hope some derp newb would wander in and hammer you?

Because I feel like that's what you're saying, and I'm saying to you that doesn't make a lot of sense.

emphasis added.

No. I'm not claiming that. Stop putting words in other players' mouths.

I've made my point clear and you are attempting to muddy the waters. It's a scummy way to enter a newbie game and you know it.

[Loopdan]

Got on a computer, so here are my reads. If you have questions, ask away.

Lean Scum

Shadow
Thor
Lucca

Null

Penguin
Creature
MissTerry

Lean Town

BlankFace

Town

Hark

Reasons--

Shadow

This slot started out OK. I liked Draynth’s questioning of Creature’s IC-fascination. I liked post 101 where he pointed out all of Creature’s IC-focused posts. After that he disappeared and never delivered a promised reads list. When Shadow took over, he immediately put me at L-1 while admitting that he hadn’t even read the game yet. I also don’t like post 326 or post 327. Or really any of Shadow’s posts. He admits he isn’t reading the game, won’t answer questions, and then asks questions that have already been answered. Not one of his posts helps town.

Thor

I don’t think Thor’s lurking early game is scummy. I think he legit missed the game. I’ve already said as much in post 208. However, his play is so nitpicky and he twists players arguments around in a way that seems to lead to town confusion rather than clarity. I really did think he wasn’t scumreading me, and was just pushing the main wagon for most of this game. But Thor’s insistence on assuming the worst and inability to consider other points of view is not pro-town. Town trying to find scum is likely to second-guess their reads. There is zero evidence of second-guessing in Thor’s posts.

Lucca

Lucca has 10 posts. Didn’t deliver a promised “big catchup” (post 233), and in fact hasn’t even posted since making that post.

Penguin

His read on me is wrong, but he is watching the game closely and is asking town questions (unlike Thor who just asks gotcha questions). Examples of Penguin’s town questions: 169 and post 220. I had a town read on Penguin until he claimed that BlankFace’s reads matched the reads that were important to him. I find it odd, because the only reads they share are that Penguin and MissTerry are town. How are those his most important reads?

MissTerry

MissTerry has a vote on me and the only reason ever offered was in post 157. And it’s a terrible reason to vote. I know it’s her first game, but still. Her other content (what there is of it) is not super helpful, but also doesn’t scream out newbscum.

Creature

I don’t understand Creature’s obsession with the IC. I made a joke about him being me when he first posted it, because in my last game Drixx was IC and he was lurking. I pushed him for it and he showed up and tunnelled me unsuccessfully. So yeah, I don’t like lurking ICs either. Creature’s reads jump around a lot. His read on me has moved from scum to town to scum. Right now I can’t tell if Creature is scum being opportunistic or town trying to read the game.

BlankFace

I really didn’t like BlankFace’s lurking early on. It lead me to vote for him in post 233. But post 266 and post 274 look town, even if he did have mixed reads on me. It looks like town trying to figure out the game, not scum constructing artificial reads.

Hark

Someone said Hark jumped to my defense after distancing earlier in the game. The truth is, Hark has been defending me as town since post 160, and had a town read on me earlier than that. But that isn’t why I’m town-reading him. Hark plays like newbtown. He isn’t afraid of saying what he thinks even if, at times, it doesn’t make perfect sense. He is trying to figure out the game. And his reads seem to correspond to the actual game being played.

[Loopdan]

@Loop - describe his scumplan to me then? And, no, I absolutely disagree that it's a scummy way to enter any game, Newbie or not. You might be able to argue reckless, but that's not scummy. And, since I'm an IC, I'm not allowed to lie about my theory beliefs, so...?

Are you saying there is an equal probability that scum and town would enter a newbie game and immediately place an L-1 vote without reading the thread?

I don't believe you, because that doesn't serve the interests of town. He didn't read the thread. For all he knows, there are already multiple other players threatening to vote a claimed PR. But he couldn't know that if he didn't read. If he came in, read the game, and then dropped the L-1 to pressure the wagon, fine, I'm with you there. But he didn't read. That's scummy as smurf.

[Loopdan]

Thor says Shadow's entrance was NAI. He says it could be equally scum or reckless town. After giving it some time and thought, I actually think he might be right. I still don't see it as pro-town in a newbie game, but that doesn't necessarily make it scum. Also, it is worth noting that Thor earlier said he "loves" this play, that is either scum or reckless town.

UNVOTE: Shadow

@MissTerry-- RE: 363- Why is your vote still on me if I'm leaning more town than scum?

[Loopdan]

I actually think the Lucca slot needs the pressure, but that will have to wait until he returns or is replaced.

@BlankFace-- Where are you?

[Loopdan]

<<snip>>
I'm not feeling it - if he's town he's being super reactive.
<<snip>>

Scum!Thor, your inability to advance reads looks bad. Your "scum hunting" is almost entirely reactive.

I think all scumhunting is reactive by definition - so...sure?

[Loopdan]

<<snip>>
You call it reckless - I call it good play.
<<snip>>

Actually, you called it reckless.

<<snip>>
Because you're expressing outrage, you're proving that it might be sloppy play,

you're getting me to agree that it is assuredly reckless play

but...and here's a deep chasm of harsh reality; town do sloppy and reckless play *all the time*.
<<snip>>

emphasis added

[Loopdan]

We're using the word differently - as shown by how I defined it. In my definition I cite that you are calling your attackers scum and your defenders town.
I have one of my early attackers, Hark, toeing at town.
I have another attacker, Shadow, that all I've done is say I don't see the logic in what he's saying.
I don't have any real defenders to townread except...well, sorta you early on, and I scumread you.

So, if you meant reactive the way I meant it - I'll listen.

I thought you meant it as 'reacting to things other people are doing' which is how I think I play, and how I responded to your post - did I get that wrong?

OK, I get that. Here's the thing, my reads are my reads. Yes, some of them correspond to the votes on me, but not all. We have nine players and four were on my wagon at the time I made reads. Do you expect I am likely to town read them all. Isn't it more likely that town will read some of their wagon as scummy?

[Loopdan]

Last I heard, Creature had a scum lean on me, yet I've read him as lean-town.

MissTerry has an insane vote on me, and I had her read as on the townie side of null.

Saying my reads are reactive is incorrect.

[Loopdan]

@Thor-- I didn't immediately place my vote on you because I'm still reading some of your meta, and I can't figure out if you are scum or town unable to reconsider reads. I think you've only made one pro-town comment about me since your first post.

[Loopdan]

I would still like comments on 294-298. I've asked for this a couple of times. I like Penguin for town aside from this broken narrative.

[Loopdan]

Thor, I've shown a willingness to adjust my read on you numerous times. Anybody can check my ISO to confirm this.

[Loopdan]

I was just dropping by to say I will not be very active here through the weekend. I'll try to check in once or twice a day but I will not have time to write much until Sunday afternoon EST.

One thing before I forget, #405 looks way more newbtown than newbscum.

[Loopdan]

Shadow's point about voting applies to me, too.

VOTE: Lucca

Not a strong scum-lean, but I don't have a stronger one at this point.

[Loopdan]

I would still like comments on 294-298. I've asked for this a couple of times. I like Penguin for town aside from this broken narrative.

Why is this simple question going repeatedly unanswered? Is it because I forgot to say please?

A simple "Naw, Loop, that doesn't mean anything because...." or "Yeah, that's a scum indicator" would suffice.

[Loopdan]

And I know I just made a point to call this post town, but I missed something the first time I read it:

Readlist:

Town: Hark, Penguin
Leantown: Thor, Shadow, Blank
Null: Lucca
Leanscum: Creature, Loopdan

Reasonings for the ones I feel will be asked about, feel free to ask about someone I haven't included here

Thor:

Seems to me like he is genuinely scumhunting, and has let up on nitpicky questioning and explaining his logic.

Shadow:

Here we go, he comes in and immediately puts the loop wagon at L-1, and says he did it without reading the thread. I don't think this is a scummy
thing to do because judging from how he has played so far (calling people stupid, saying outright that he was reading through and was bored, voting for
the person with no votes) he likes an interesting game. I think that voting for me is indicative of active scumhunting, getting a reaction from me when I
previously hadn't been pressured much and don't think doing that is being scummy. His reasons for voting for me are my lack of reaction to his L-1 (which is a valid
complaint since I didn't react with a post) and that my reason for voting for Loop was ridiculous (this has already been voiced by many players). Do I agree with
his reasonings for calling me scum? No. Do I think they make him scummy, also no.

Creature:

Creature is a player i'm having a very hard time reading. I had him scum, town and now again scum. His reads are very conflicting for me and I think this has been clear since the beginning of the game
and should not be something I can be scummed for.

That last sentence. "...should not be something I can be scummed for." Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but The subtext of that reads like scum saying "yeah I'm scum, but that's a bad reason for scum reading me."

[Loopdan]

Also, 410 looks like Thor defending lucca's slot while attempting to look like he's not defending lucca's slot.

I look forward to Thor's answer to BlankFace's question about newbie replacement stats.

Out for now. I'll check back in tonight.

[Loopdan]

@Hark--Why the MT vote? As recently as #397 you had MT as lean-town. Is there more to it than my pointing out what

might

be a scumslip?

[Loopdan]

I ISOed MissTerry, and don't see whatever Hark sees.

I agree with Thor that Creature's pressure vote exerts little pressure when he admits it isn't on his top scum-read. I suppose this is one reason why some players are reluctant to provide complete read-lists unless it's absolutely necessary.

[Loopdan]

@BlankFace-- Your vote is on Thor. Updated read there? Your take on his newbie replacements stats answer?

@Shadow-- In 376 you said MissTerry's ISO looks "horrible." In 377, you pointed out two of her posts that you have problems with. What do you make of MT's more recent posts?

@Thor-- IC question: I've read games where players vote no lynch. In what situations is this a good strategy for town in a newbie game? Non-IC question: If you can't have a Loopdan lynch, who is your next option at this point?

[Loopdan]

Thanks for the explanation, Thor.


I just read Lucca's other game here on MS, and am liking my vote on that slot even more, now.

[Loopdan]

I just read Lucca's other game here on MS, and am liking my vote on that slot even more, now.

Why is that?

In 1706, townLucca showed a much deeper level of analysis and was much more accusatory early on than Lucca has been in our game.

[Loopdan]

MT's "scumslip" did not read like much of a scum slip to me. I feel like the lack of reaction to it could be town too. Normally I'd see scum flail at that, especially newbie scum.

Wait, didn't Hark say saying there was a slip was to get me to respond. Are you saying you found one or just referring to the whole ordeal as "scumslip". And by reaction do you mean frustration or emotion or simply responding?

Yeah, I'm not sure if BF is referring to Hark's claim of finding a scumslip, or this...

Spoiler:

And I know I just made a point to call this post town, but I missed something the first time I read it:

Readlist:

Town: Hark, Penguin
Leantown: Thor, Shadow, Blank
Null: Lucca
Leanscum: Creature, Loopdan

Reasonings for the ones I feel will be asked about, feel free to ask about someone I haven't included here

Thor:

Seems to me like he is genuinely scumhunting, and has let up on nitpicky questioning and explaining his logic.

Shadow:

Here we go, he comes in and immediately puts the loop wagon at L-1, and says he did it without reading the thread. I don't think this is a scummy
thing to do because judging from how he has played so far (calling people stupid, saying outright that he was reading through and was bored, voting for
the person with no votes) he likes an interesting game. I think that voting for me is indicative of active scumhunting, getting a reaction from me when I
previously hadn't been pressured much and don't think doing that is being scummy. His reasons for voting for me are my lack of reaction to his L-1 (which is a valid
complaint since I didn't react with a post) and that my reason for voting for Loop was ridiculous (this has already been voiced by many players). Do I agree with
his reasonings for calling me scum? No. Do I think they make him scummy, also no.

Creature:

Creature is a player i'm having a very hard time reading. I had him scum, town and now again scum. His reads are very conflicting for me and I think this has been clear since the beginning of the game
and should not be something I can be scummed for.

That last sentence. "...should not be something I can be scummed for." Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but The subtext of that reads like scum saying "yeah I'm scum, but that's a bad reason for scum reading me."

[Loopdan]

@Thor-- If you haven't yet realized that I'm town, you should at least have recognized that I'm not the lynch today. And Creature looks safe, too.

Let's get some votes on Lucca before some hotshot veteran replaces into that scum-slot and sows confusion in the game.

[Loopdan]

The only reason you'd vote an empty slot is if you're planning to lynch, so:
Is everyone fine with lucca lynch?
Do you think we should end the day now?

I'm definitely not okay with lynching someone who can't even defend themself. An exception to that would be if the slot is blatant and obvious scum - which in this case, it isn't. Waiting for lucca's replacement and judging the slot by that is better.

I am

not

OK with lynching Lucca before a replacement. I would, however, like the replacement to arrive and feel some immediate pressure.

[Loopdan]

In 1706, townLucca showed a much deeper level of analysis and was much more accusatory early on than Lucca has been in our game.

Lucca hasn't really been in our game, though.
His last time on site was concurrent with his last post in this game.
Why would you think this is strategic?

Note my use of "early on." When I read lucca's ISOs side by side, it was apparent that there was an immediate ease to his play in the other game that was not present at the start of our game.

I am not saying the inactivity is scummy. I'm saying the content of his posts is superficial here compared to the in-depth work he did at the start of his last (town) game.

[Loopdan]

In 1706, townLucca showed a much deeper level of analysis and was much more accusatory early on than Lucca has been in our game.

Lucca hasn't really been in our game, though.
His last time on site was concurrent with his last post in this game.
Why would you think this is strategic?

Note my use of "early on." When I read lucca's ISOs side by side, it was apparent that there was an immediate ease to his play in the other game that was not present at the start of our game.

I am not saying the inactivity is scummy. I'm saying the content of his posts is superficial here compared to the in-depth work he did at the start of his last (town) game.

Okay, I'm half buying - you have a link to this example game?

Lucca's previous game on MS. Lucca shows up in post 35.

[Loopdan]

I'd like updated reads from Penguin, Shadow, and BlankFace first.

[Loopdan]

@Thor-- If you haven't yet realized that I'm town, you should at least have recognized that I'm not the lynch today. And Creature looks safe, too.

Let's get some votes on Lucca before some hotshot veteran replaces into that scum-slot and sows confusion in the game.

Oh, man. I was actually starting to lean creature before this post. Let's lynch a slot before we can even glean information from the replacement player about that slots alignment! Bad post.

Did you miss my subsequent posts on this matter, or just choose to ignore them to make me appear scummier? I very clearly stated in my very next post that...

I am

not

OK with lynching Lucca before a replacement. I would, however, like the replacement to arrive and feel some immediate pressure.

Spoiler: All my recent Lucca posts for context

Shadow's point about voting applies to me, too.

VOTE: Lucca

Not a strong scum-lean, but I don't have a stronger one at this point.

Thanks for the explanation, Thor.


I just read Lucca's other game here on MS, and am liking my vote on that slot even more, now.

I just read Lucca's other game here on MS, and am liking my vote on that slot even more, now.

Why is that?

In 1706, townLucca showed a much deeper level of analysis and was much more accusatory early on than Lucca has been in our game.

@Thor-- If you haven't yet realized that I'm town, you should at least have recognized that I'm not the lynch today. And Creature looks safe, too.

Let's get some votes on Lucca before some hotshot veteran replaces into that scum-slot and sows confusion in the game.

The only reason you'd vote an empty slot is if you're planning to lynch, so:
Is everyone fine with lucca lynch?
Do you think we should end the day now?

I'm definitely not okay with lynching someone who can't even defend themself. An exception to that would be if the slot is blatant and obvious scum - which in this case, it isn't. Waiting for lucca's replacement and judging the slot by that is better.

I am

not

OK with lynching Lucca before a replacement. I would, however, like the replacement to arrive and feel some immediate pressure.

In 1706, townLucca showed a much deeper level of analysis and was much more accusatory early on than Lucca has been in our game.

Lucca hasn't really been in our game, though.
His last time on site was concurrent with his last post in this game.
Why would you think this is strategic?

Note my use of "early on." When I read lucca's ISOs side by side, it was apparent that there was an immediate ease to his play in the other game that was not present at the start of our game.

I am not saying the inactivity is scummy. I'm saying the content of his posts is superficial here compared to the in-depth work he did at the start of his last (town) game.

In 1706, townLucca showed a much deeper level of analysis and was much more accusatory early on than Lucca has been in our game.

Lucca hasn't really been in our game, though.
His last time on site was concurrent with his last post in this game.
Why would you think this is strategic?

Note my use of "early on." When I read lucca's ISOs side by side, it was apparent that there was an immediate ease to his play in the other game that was not present at the start of our game.

I am not saying the inactivity is scummy. I'm saying the content of his posts is superficial here compared to the in-depth work he did at the start of his last (town) game.

Okay, I'm half buying - you have a link to this example game?

Lucca's previous game on MS. Lucca shows up in post 35.

Penguin, did you not read the rest of the thread when you posted your comment about 465 being bad? Or are you trying to justify lingering on a failed wagon while you wait for the next townie wagon to form?

[Loopdan]

Welcome to the game serrapaladin! Feel free to sheep my vote.

[Loopdan]

I hate to admit this, but I don't see a convincing scum-case on anybody right now. There are a couple players I'd vote against at deadline, but at this point I've got nothing. I'll do some iso re-reads tonight.

@Thor-- Why have you become much more passive in this game lately? Losing interest or not seeing a target?

[Loopdan]

<<snip>>

Moving Shadow back to Lean Scum because he is tunneling and I don't like his refusal to interact. He's either a very stubborn town, or scum who is posing as one, can't tell which.

<<snip>>

Why do you say he is refusing to interact? I see lots of interaction on the last two pages. Are you referring to his refusal to give reads?

[Loopdan]

Going back and looking, I was attacking you and Creature as recently as Sunday - so sorry if not attacking you for about 12 hours threw you off.
Of course, you're the one citing me as always attacking everything you say - I've never claimed that, and actually disagreed with you.

I've seen a definite change in your game towards me since Friday morning. Your last real push at scum!Loopdan was post 392. Sure you've said you still think I'm scum, but you've stopped trying to pick apart my posts and have become much less aggressive. If you are town, why did you stop trying to convince town that I'm scum, or at least move your vote to your second scummiest read?

That last question is genuine, not accusatory.

[Loopdan]

BlankFace's activity level is anti-town. We cannot properly sort him this way.

[Loopdan]

If your question is 'could he be town?'
Yeah, sure - I actualy kind of like that he unvoted you (albeit in the face of overwhelming evidence and without putting his vote on either of his second, clearly stated, scum pile suspects...but that might just be newbieness at play there)
He still doesn't seem to even be trying to scumhunt, I feel more like he's making the motions and hoping that's enough. If he believed in his scumhunting I believe he would have at least questioned/attacked me over calling his reads empty and reactive. He didn't - I read that as tacit admission that I'm correct, still wanna force a claim.

Like, here we are a few posts ago - with Thor, the man who refuses to consider Loop could be town.

Have you done something better than this for me in the last week?

This was a pretty clear attack on you - one you haven't managed to back up, and incidentally one that plays against your chosen (lie) narrative that all I'm doing is attacking you without considering how anything you do might be townish.

Oh, this again! I'm glad you brought it back up because I forgot to comment on it last time, and I see you are now doubling down on your attempt to misconstrue my statement.

Thor, show me the post where I say you've never made a pro-town comment about me. Because your argument against me at this point is that I said that. And you keep bringing up a single post to prove that you did indeed have one post where you made a pro-town comment about me. So show us the post that you are arguing against. You know, the one with my "narrative" about you never making a pro-town post about me.

Show us the post that you are arguing against. I'll wait.

[Loopdan]

Just kidding. I ain't waiting.

@Thor-- I didn't immediately place my vote on you because I'm still reading some of your meta, and I can't figure out if you are scum or town unable to reconsider reads. I think you've only made one pro-town comment about me since your first post.

[Loopdan]

But I'm glad we agree that you only have one pro-town post about me. Since that's all you could find, too.

[Loopdan]

Loopdan: Thor, I think you've only made one pro-town comment about me since your first post.

Thor: Scummy liar! You are saying I've never made a pro-town comment about you. That's not true, here is one pro-town comment I made about you to prove you are lying.

Loopdan:

[Loopdan]

I thought Hark's Creature-Thor distancing theory was bonkers at first, but it does seem like the kind of thing a SE and IC team would pre-plan.

Question to the audience: is it obvious that scum can talk in their qt pregame if you've never been scum?

It is if you asked the IC about it in your first game (and then got scumread by others for what they saw as a LAMIST play).

From that game:

Question for Drixx (or whoever knows)-- Did the mafia have an opportunity to communicate with each other during the pre-game, or are they incommunicado until Night 1?

[Loopdan]

But I do like that you thought to ask that question.

[Loopdan]

Penguin, did you not read the rest of the thread when you posted your comment about 465 being bad? Or are you trying to justify lingering on a failed wagon while you wait for the next townie wagon to form?

I was commenting on posts in chronological order. This is why I don't like doing WoTs. However, your follow up posts look more like defense of a bad post than legitimate reasons for the vote.

Ok, so when you wrote that post 465 was bad, you hadn't read my next few posts about my vote on lucca. But then you read my next posts about lucca and decided they were just defense for a bad vote rater than legitimate reasons.

When you say they are not legitimate reasons, does that mean you read the game I linked from lucca's meta and you disagreed with my evaluation of it? I'm curious then, what exactly do you disagree with in my reasons for the lucca vote? And why wouldn't you have commented on it already if you read the game and disagreed with my take on it?

That would have been townier than taking one post and claiming I was trying to lynch a replacing-out player, which I stated unequivocally I would not support in my very next post.

You want to paint my vote as scummy, and my lucca read as manufactured, yet you've done none of the work to actually say why the reasons are bad behind why I came to like what was initially a pressure vote on a lurking slot.

And you make it look like 465 came from nowhere, but I made three posts about voting lucca before that.

Spoiler: You know, these ones...

Shadow's point about voting applies to me, too.

VOTE: Lucca

Not a strong scum-lean, but I don't have a stronger one at this point.

Thanks for the explanation, Thor.


I just read Lucca's other game here on MS, and am liking my vote on that slot even more, now.

I just read Lucca's other game here on MS, and am liking my vote on that slot even more, now.

Why is that?

In 1706, townLucca showed a much deeper level of analysis and was much more accusatory early on than Lucca has been in our game.

[Loopdan]

Fair enough, loop. Is that your only completed game?

Yes. There is an ongoing non-newbie game that I replaced out of after like three posts. My slot in that game has since been lynched, but I won't say more because it is ongoing.

[Loopdan]

@serrapaladin-- Your wish has been granted!

[Loopdan]

Anyone supports a Thor lynch?

Wait until serrapaladin is done and provides reads. BlankFace is voting Thor right now. I also want his updated Thor read before a wagon forms (if one does).

And remind me to bring up my town!Thor argument. As scummy as I think he has played at times, I have a particular reason that gives me pause in lynching him.

[Loopdan]

Let's see:

Your slot disappeared.

Good, like half of the playerlist already disappeared once.

But Loopdan came with a good meta point on lucca261.

Which makes me wonder, shouldn't lucca261 be making analysis and contributing rather than flaking out?

And that made me confident your slot is scum.

Just to be clear on my position: Lucca flaking out is not what I find scummy. What I found scummy were his early interactions in the part of the game when he was actively posting that looks different from his other (town) game, where he was engaged and analytical.

[Loopdan]

And then Loopdan came with meta.

If the lucca/serra slot is scum, this will become my signature.

If the slot is town, I'm acting like this post never happened.

[Loopdan]

I'd rather see serra's reads than defend Lucca.

^This.

[Loopdan]

I took a quick scanning and notice that his posts were indeed bigger.

[Loopdan]

Are you more sure on your meta point about me or thor?

I don't have a meta case on Thor. I read some of his completed games, but nothing jumped out at me.

From your first post, it looks like you've played with Thor before. What's your take on his play here?

[Loopdan]

@Creature-- Slow down. Serra hasn't posted a single read.

[Loopdan]

If serra is scum, what incentive does he have to post reads if there is a wagon going? This is the perfect time to focus on analyzing a replacement's content, because there is nothing else going on. Get a wagon going and everyone moves on and gives serra a pass.

[Loopdan]

@Shadow -- Your Thor read?

[Loopdan]

Just kidding. I ain't waiting.

@Thor-- I didn't immediately place my vote on you because I'm still reading some of your meta, and I can't figure out if you are scum or town unable to reconsider reads. I think you've only made one pro-town comment about me since your first post.

Yeah - so you called me scummy for not doing it.
So I showed that I *had* done it - and then challenged you to do the same.
So the gauntlet toss down was by me, based off an attack you made against me.
Your quote proves you did list that as an issue in me, so what's your issue in me listing it as an issue with you?

So you have no defense against my allegation that you've misconstrued my posts on this topic?

I already answered your attempt to throw this back at me in post 393. I'm not writing a wall to defend the diversity of my reads on you. Anybody following the game can see I have been open to the possibility of town!Thor. I don't think the same can be said for your consideration of town!Loopdan. You can try another angle of attack on 390, but ultimately that's what this comes down to.

Oh, and your scummy attempts to misconstrue my post.

[Loopdan]

I'll just leave this here

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=60083

What is the purpose of leaving this here? It's a game where Thor is scum.

[Loopdan]

So it's ridiculous to think that Thor would choose to lurk until prodded at game start as IC in a Newbie. I feel like Creature should know this. Or have figured it out by browsing some of Thor's games. Or change his mind when Thor directly pointed out how ridiculous it is. Or when the mod literally confirmed there were no links to the thread.

I tend to agree. This is the town-case I have for Thor that I mentioned a few posts back. I first made note of this here:

Creature v. Thor is going nowhere. I tend to think Thor's inactivity is more likely a town indicator than scum. What does he gain other than undue attention by avoiding the game? Also, it would be against the spirit of the IC role to do this intentionally.

Thor's lurking at game start is the towniest thing he has done all game.

[Loopdan]

At this point I am not scum reading Thor for "lurking".

Good. Care to share?

Let's compare mine's and Thor's reads progression:



I know you prefer the latter, but let's be real: No paranoia or town consideration?

Hasn't Thor provided reads on others besides you and me? You should log those into your chart, too, for a fairer comparison.

[Loopdan]

Thor's lurking at game start is the towniest thing he has done all game.

I can't tell if that's a humorous way of you saying that Thor is scum, or you actually believe that.

I don't think he would intentionally lurk as scum while in the IC role. So I accept his statement that he just missed the game thread.

And... I'm an idiot. That means he could have missed it as scum or as town, and so this is NAI. Thor did say it was NAI in reply to my 208 originally, but I still missed this until just now.

[Loopdan]

@serrapaladin-- Please post your reads. Other than post 621, you haven't really told us your thoughts on other slots.

[Loopdan]

Just to be clear on my position: Lucca flaking out is not what I find scummy. What I found scummy were his early interactions in the part of the game when he was actively posting that looks different from his other (town) game, where he was engaged and analytical.

Which of his 10 posts were disengaged and lacking analysis up until the Sunday where he stopped and later got replaced for inactivity?

Go read the first 200 posts of that other game. Then come back and read the first 200 posts of this game. There is a clear difference in lucca's play between these two games that goes beyond inactivity.

And then Loopdan came with meta.

Serious question: You can make a meta-case based on one other game?

When it's all you have on a player and you have no other strong scum-reads, sure, why not? I've never sold the lucca-slot as must lynch 100% confirmed scum. I initially voted lucca because I had no vote placed and the slot needed pressure. Then I read the iso and liked my vote even more.

[Loopdan]

I'll just leave this here

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=60083

What is the purpose of leaving this here? It's a game where Thor is scum.

Mostly just because it's my most recent game with Thor. I'm not really getting the same vibe from thor here, though.

Tell me more.

[Loopdan]

Maybe later, Loop.

I want to figure out who to lynch first. I'm leaning towards MissTerry. Thoughts?

OK, here's my MissTerry breakdown. This is every single post MT has made (although I cheated on the first five):

Spoiler: MT's posts linked with short summaries

MT's first five votes aren't really anything helpful, but it's MT's first game, so I wouldn't expect much, anyway.

Post 95 is kind of odd with the formal greeting of a new player. A bit of analysis on the Thor situation, which I didn't necessarily agree with, but it shows an effort at trying to solver the game.

Post 96 is about needing a profile pic.

Post 110 is an excuse about needing sleep.

Post 155 is a defense of why Thor isn't scum, and a Loopdan is scum read.

Post 157 is the infamous Loopdan is scum because he said he was town post.

There is a lot going on in post 184. MT continues arguing that saying you are town is a scumclaim, says we can stop discusses Thor's absence because he is now in the game, gives Thor a cookie, and drops this brilliant analysis about scum!Loopdan: "After the beginning he stopped posting and is now mainly answering and asking questions. I mainly suspect him as scum because of his claim that he wasn't."

Post 186 points out another scum claim by Loopdan, when he said he was town again!

In post 248, MissTerry"], MT claims to be "very very confused" and talks about needing sleep, while promising to write the next day ASAP.

Post 265 goes back to the reasoning behind the vote on Loopdan, and surprise its still because Loopdan said he was town.

For Post 267, MissTerry"], MT says that Creature's attack on Thor is scummy because Thor answered with "valid logic." Creature is now more scummy and is a likely scum-partner for Loopdan.

Post 269 contains a scum-claim by MT. I can't believe we all missed it!

This is my first game of forum mafia, I have not played scum. There you go, I say I am town.

Also in 269, MT says that my responses to Thor has lessened my scum-read.

Post 272 is an explanation of why MT is feeling confused.

Post 363, MissTerry"] has a lot of responses to several players. One interesting part is that MT's Loopdan read continues to change: "By this I meant you looked less scummy to me based on your responses to the pressure. Your frustration with Thor's repetitive questions leans more town than scum to me."

Then we have a bunch of posts where MT defends against the accusation from Shadow that MT is scummy for not reacting to Shadow putting Loopdan at L-1. I don't particularly like this part of post 404:

VOTE: MissT

Aha, getting interesting now are we?

Post 405 is a readslist that puts me back in the scummiest tier. That one is confusing. MT spent a couple posts talking about how my interactions with Thor made me look more town, then stood by with the vote on me anyway while Shadow voted me to L-1. Then the next reads list shows me as leanscum (with nobody in the scum tier).

Post 430 is MT's reaction to the fake scumslip claim from Hark. This is the post where MT finally unvotes Loopdan and moves the vote to Creature.

In post 432, MissTerry"], MT mentions the need to sleep yet again.

Post 459, MissTerry"] is trying to figure out the confusion around the scumslip Hark claimed and the one I asked about.

I like this post a lot:

Apparently MissTerry didn't care if Hark found a possibly major scumslip in her ISO.

Hm, nope

462 is a reminder to Thor to talk about Creature's reads.

481 is MT asking why Shadow didn't attack Lucca and Blank for not reacting to his L-1 vote.

In 488 MT votes Shadow and calls the current vote list ridiculous.

Post 489 is correcting the mod for an inaccurate vote-count.

491 is questioning why Loopdan is voting lucca when he is not here.

494, MissTerry"] is an argument with Shadow about Shadow's lack of reads and "tunneling" being scummy.

And then three posts (501, 505, 508) for Shadow about stuff (This is taking longer than I thought it would ).

521 is simply:

If we all keep playing like this, Day 1 is going to end with no lynch.
Which is what scum wants.

524 is more of the Shadow stuff.

616 is where MT sheeps me on the serrapaladin vote to try and force some reads.

Overall, MT looks more like newbtown than newbscum. I will not support an MissTerry lynch today.

[Loopdan]

@Loop: when many points against MT rely on reactions to stuff, an ISO isn't necessarily that useful. You seem to like the lack of reactions to Hark's reaction test, and shadow's L-1 vote (for she was notably there, whereas others weren't). I would suggest that as newb-scum, a genuine reaction is harder to come by, which leads to blanks. I don't like 460 at all - it reads to me as "haha yeah I ignored that and it went away". Note that this was after Hark had admitted he didn't actually have anything. 430 was her only genuine reaction to it, and I'm not convinced.

Make a case for MT. I'll listen.

And you still haven't voted. I get not giving up all your reads, but why no vote?

[Loopdan]

@innocentvillager

-- I know you said you do vote counts daily, but this is a very active game right now and we are approaching deadline. I'd like to request more frequent vote counts until Night 1, please.

[Loopdan]

I think serrapaladin got to L-1 without anybody noticing.

UNVOTE: while I check for sure.

[Loopdan]

Never mind. Hark had moved his vote to Shadow.

[Loopdan]

I will not vote Hark or Creature today. I am very unlikely to vote MT.

The rest is up for grabs.

[Loopdan]

We have 60 hours to lynch.

If it's between Serra and Blank, I'm going to have to do some rereading.

[Loopdan]

Penguin and Thor literally haven't moved off their first non-RVS vote all game. If they don't, we need five of the remaining seven players to agree on a lynch (I'm assuming of course that three of you won't jump on the Loopdan wagon).

[Loopdan]

Hark continuing to tunnel on me is so bad and the reason he is voting me, "because I'm not sharing a readlist" is so pathetic. I don't think he himself would buy that, which makes me think he is scum.
Like there is so much going on today and the best he's got is that "Shadow isn't posting a readlist, so he must be scum."

So what's your conclusion? Is Hark scum or just playing poorly?

Because Hark is not being lynched today.

[Loopdan]

Lynch-o-meter

Loopdan: BlankFace, PenguinPower, serrapaladin, Shadow_step, Thor665

It should be noted that these are not in order of preference. I will not state a preference at this time.

[Loopdan]

VOTE: Serrapaladin

[Loopdan]

I actively dislike the serrapaladin wagon.

Then push something other than Loopdan.

[Loopdan]

Hark continuing to tunnel on me is so bad and the reason he is voting me, "because I'm not sharing a readlist" is so pathetic. I don't think he himself would buy that, which makes me think he is scum.
Like there is so much going on today and the best he's got is that "Shadow isn't posting a readlist, so he must be scum."

So what's your conclusion? Is Hark scum or just playing poorly?

Because Hark is not being lynched today.

Would depend on the flips I guess.

What do you make of him buddying you so hard ?

I think he has a legit town read on me. He had every opportunity to join my wagon, or even hammer me, yet didn't. So I don't see him as scum buddying me.

[Loopdan]

Checked his meta and I am confident now.

Explain.

No hammers yet.

There is more to learn before Night 1. We have some time.

If shadow if worried about a no-lynch, I promise I will hammer before deadline to avoid that.

[Loopdan]

Where are you Thor?

This would be a great time for town!Thor to help sort some of this out.

[Loopdan]

Really guys? You should have waited for Thor to comment on the Blank wagon before starting a new one.

[Loopdan]

semi v/la until late Saturday 23rd

Semi VLA. He'll be back.

We've already seen one VT claim. Only scum benefits if we run a bunch of players up to L-1 to force them to claim. If Thor is your lynch, then go for it, but I think caution is in order.

[Loopdan]

In other words, at this stage of the Day, if you run someone to L-1 and there is an intent to hammer, you better be prepared to lynch them when they claim VT. If there was no intent to hammer or claim, you can try a new wagon. The VT claims help scum find the PRs.

Having said that, I prefer a Thor lynch over Blank.

VOTE: Thor

[Loopdan]

How this lynch forms from here will give surviving players lots to talk about tomorrow after Thor flips scum.

So just go ahead and bus.

[Loopdan]

I'm not confident in my read on thor. His tone in attacking Loop feels different from when he tried to mislynch me as scum. His play is a bit more balanced here than in Zar's game. That being said, I won't pretend that I'm particularly good at reading him. If he's town, he's potentially a serious asset, so I wouldn't be happy with lynching him.

<<snip!>>

Doesn't this cut both ways? Yes, he is very experienced and should be an asset if he is town. But isn't he then also much more dangerous as scum?

I don't think it makes sense to give him a pass on scummy behavior just because there is a higher probability at game-start that he is town. And I know that's not what you are arguing, so I'm not trying to set up a straw-man. I'm just thinking out loud here.

And can you really say that town!Thor he has been an asset to

this

game? He pushed me hard, which did help other players sort my slot. Then he did... what exactly?

<<snip!>>
Thor is an unknown. Saying he doesn't like the wagon on me without suggesting a valid alternatives bothers me a bit, as he'll get towncred when I flip, but as it's going, doesn't do anything to prevent it. It's probably best to sort him by other means, like associations after a scum flip.

Whose flip will help us sort Thor? A flipped scum!Loopdan basically confirms town!Thor, but that won't happen. A flipped town!Loopdan doesn't confirm Thor as scum, does it? What other flips might be helpful to sorting Thor?

[Loopdan]

Hi Shadow

How's your luking going?

He posted three hours ago. And has posted four times in the last 24 hours.

I get it, he isn't contributing much, but this is far from lurking.

[Loopdan]

I don't really want to explain this any more. Thor isn't someone I scumread, and because of who he is, this makes me more opposed to lynching him than others.

"Because of who he is"? What does this mean? I know he is an active experienced player. Is there more to it than that?

What do you make of Thor parking his vote on me the entire game and failing to lead town in scum-hunting? I'm genuinely interested in hearing an explanation of how his actions have been pro-town.

Also, would you hammer Thor at deadline to avoid a no-lynch?

[Loopdan]

Town!Blank votes Thor here to save his hide. scum!Blank stalls and hopes for no-lynch if Thor is his scum-buddy, but goes for the lynch if Thor is town.

@BlankFace-- You know you have to vote Thor, right?

And Thor pretty much has to vote Blank to set-up Shadow for the decision on who to hammer.

[Loopdan]

Then you'll probably need to convince shadow of that.

[Loopdan]

Yeah, Blank not voting his counterwagon is worrying.

Why is it worrying? He isn't here.

[Loopdan]

Then you'll probably need to convince shadow of that.

?

Town!Blank votes Thor here to save his hide. scum!Blank stalls and hopes for no-lynch if Thor is his scum-buddy, but goes for the lynch if Thor is town.

@BlankFace-- You know you have to vote Thor, right?

And Thor pretty much has to vote Blank to set-up Shadow for the decision on who to hammer.

[Loopdan]

Yeah, Blank not voting his counterwagon is worrying.

Blank having real life responsibilities means he isn't going to be here every minute of the day. Driving home right now. Just tired of this "blank is lurking" bs.

For future reference, if I'm working, I either get a 15 minute window or a 45 minute window to check my phone. You shouldn't expect me post anything then.

I'll read things over when I get settled at home.

Also Loop. I do not have to vote for and huge fucking

HoS

at you for the context of that post.

That post alone makes me skeptical of a Thor wagon, looking at it from scum!Loop's PoV.

Well yeah, you don't

have to

vote Thor, but why would town!Blank allow himself to be lynched over another player?

I'm ok with this setup. Thor and Blank are both acceptable lynches for me (although I'd prefer Thor), and I like the idea of shadow having to choose who between them to hammer. I'm not sure on his slot, so the choice and flip helps sort there, too.

[Loopdan]

Town!Blank votes Thor here to save his hide. scum!Blank stalls and hopes for no-lynch if Thor is his scum-buddy, but goes for the lynch if Thor is town.

@Blank-- Which part of the above do you disagree with?

[Loopdan]

Town!Blank, I apologize if you feel backed into a corner. I'm sorry Creature thinks you are lurking when you are simply gainfully employed. But Thor has not helped town figure out this game at all. He doesn't look like an experienced town IC trying to solve the game.

[Loopdan]

Thor/Blank is a possibility to consider, but the association tell only really works with a Blank scum flip.

Why doesn't the association tell work the other way?

[Loopdan]

I don't really want to explain this any more. Thor isn't someone I scumread, and because of who he is, this makes me more opposed to lynching him than others.

"Because of who he is"? What does this mean? I know he is an active experienced player. Is there more to it than that?

What do you make of Thor parking his vote on me the entire game and failing to lead town in scum-hunting? I'm genuinely interested in hearing an explanation of how his actions have been pro-town.

Also, would you hammer Thor at deadline to avoid a no-lynch?

@serrapal-- You only answered the last question above. What about the others?

[Loopdan]

Town!Blank, I apologize if you feel backed into a corner. I'm sorry Creature thinks you are lurking when you are simply gainfully employed. But Thor has not helped town figure out this game at all. He doesn't look like an experienced town IC trying to solve the game.

Town!Blank votes Thor here to save his hide. scum!Blank stalls and hopes for no-lynch if Thor is his scum-buddy, but goes for the lynch if Thor is town.

@Blank-- Which part of the above do you disagree with?

Don't aologize. I'm not backed into a corner.

The part that deals in absolutes. The part that paints me like shit no matter what I do. You are setting up your next mislynch as scum. Here's what you laid out:
1. I vote Thor, out of self preservation. Easy to see scum motivation for me there after the fact.
2. I, as scum "stall" and hope for a no lynch? [like what in the actual fuck? In what world is a NL EVER going to happen first of all, second of all how does a NL benefit me as scum? Prolonging the game does not help scum. That's more days to trying to fly under the radar.
3. I, as scum, vote Thor to for the mislynch.

Of those three scenarios, all three paint me as scum in the long run. All three are easy setups to push me tomorrow should Thor be lynched today and he flips town. That is the issue that I have with that post.

I also don't like being told what to do. Just look at my interactions with/ignoring Shadow Step.

I don't see how you could be misunderstanding my simple statement. I said that town!Blank and scum!Blank would vote Thor, unless you are both scum, then scum!Blank stalls. Which is now what you are doing.

I don't understand why, if you are town, you wouldn't vote Thor right now, even if he is your top town read. If you are town, you are 100% confirmed by your role pm. No other town-read Day 1 is confirmed. Why would you allow conftown (you) to be lynched over another player?

And you are trying to sell my statement as a setup to lynch you later no matter what you do now. I already said I am OK with either of these wagons. So yeah, whoever we lynch today, I'm looking at the other tomorrow.

Blank voting Thor in this situation is NAI. Blank not voting Thor in this situation is either showing us the scum team, or stubbornness.

[Loopdan]

The Thor vote puts Blank at L-1. I intend to hammer Blank at deadline if there is no L-1 vote and intent to hammer on Thor.

[Loopdan]

If we're going to push another wagon, we won't get much support, and it's not a good idea as we're forcing another player to claim.

I made this point before. Blank has already claimed VT. We should not be forcing other claims at this point unless there is a clear target that is agreed upon.

Now Thor says he won't be back until after deadline, which means no claim from him. So do we lynch Thor with no claim or lynch Blank who already claimed VT? I'm leaning Blank based on that, but maybe that's Thor's strategy?

[Loopdan]

If we're going to push another wagon, we won't get much support, and it's not a good idea as we're forcing another player to claim.

I made this point before. Blank has already claimed VT. We should not be forcing other claims at this point unless there is a clear target that is agreed upon.

Now Thor says he won't be back until after deadline, which means no claim from him. So do we lynch Thor with no claim or lynch Blank who already claimed VT? I'm leaning Blank based on that, but maybe that's Thor's strategy?

This is more townposting btw.

Fwiw, I don't question his VLA.

Semi-VLA.

[Loopdan]

This wagon sucks, just saying before I get lynched. There is literally no case against me.

Do what you have to do. The wagon is scum driven.

Who is the scum on your wagon? Your vote is on Creature who isn't voting you. You most recently called me scum and I'm not voting you.

Who on your wagon is scum?

[Loopdan]

VOTE: Blank

Go away.

That wasn't cool. We were still talking.

[Loopdan]

Serra, you are here now. I want a defense of that hammer. Not at Day 2 start. Now.

[Loopdan]

Ok, I feel stupid.

[Loopdan]

I highly dislike Loop's reaction. Sure, suspecting someone of hammering before stating intent is valid as town. But reading behind his lines, he was treated Blank as a town flip and was already starting to go against you.

I asked for a defense of his hammering without intent. I've stated repeatedly that we have time and shouldn't hammer too soon.

Also, Blank's reaction could be fake (as could mine). I wouldn't read too much into it.

[Loopdan]

Also, Hark, my demand for an explanation from Serra came after Blank replied to the "hammer" and said he was VT.

[Loopdan]

Loop and Creature, why were you two so much against a different wagon and insisted that it was Blank/Thor?
You know, if Thor is somehow town, Creature/Loop scumteam is something I can see.

I never insisted the scum team was Blank/Thor. I said I was ok with either lynch at the time.

[Loopdan]

You just said that you believe that Blank's reaction could be fake.

Also, Blank's reaction could be fake (as could mine). I wouldn't read too much into it.

But in this post, you are implying that it is 100% true no matter what.

Also, Hark, my demand for an explanation from Serra came after Blank replied to the "hammer" and said he was VT.

???

I thought Serra hammered Blank without giving intent. Blank replied saying he was hammered and was VT. I demanded a defense of the hammer. Then I realized it wasn't a hammer. So just because I didn't realize the hammer was fake doesn't mean Blank didn't realize it was fake.

[Loopdan]

I don't know. I think it is more likely his response was genuine than fake. But I am also concerned with forcing another player to claim before we lynch.

My vote is still on Thor, for now.

[Loopdan]

So, Loop, you are ok with lynching someone who can't defend himself and can't claim?

I don't know. I don't see a viable alternative. I've been very open about my thinking in the last 24 hours.

The Thor vote puts Blank at L-1. I intend to hammer Blank at deadline if there is no L-1 vote and intent to hammer on Thor.

If we're going to push another wagon, we won't get much support, and it's not a good idea as we're forcing another player to claim.

I made this point before. Blank has already claimed VT. We should not be forcing other claims at this point unless there is a clear target that is agreed upon.

Now Thor says he won't be back until after deadline, which means no claim from him. So do we lynch Thor with no claim or lynch Blank who already claimed VT? I'm leaning Blank based on that, but maybe that's Thor's strategy?

[Loopdan]

I don't know. I think it is more likely his response was genuine than fake. But I am also concerned with forcing another player to claim before we lynch.

My vote is still on Thor, for now.

If you don't lynch me, someone else is claiming. No way around it.

If you lynch Thor, you are lynching without a claim.

I don't understand your logic here.

That's why I said I don't know. The statements in that post are not intended to support each other in a logical argument.

[Loopdan]

Let me ISO MT again and see.

I don't like that Thor gets out of the lynch because he is "semi-VLA."

I'll be at my computer for the next couple hours. I'll keep checking here. And then I can check back again a few hours before deadline, but deadline is 3AM my time, so I won't be here at the bell.

[Loopdan]

A quick analysis of MissTerry's votes

184 - MT puts the third vote on Loopdan (first two placed by Penguin and Thor). I don't even want to go over again how terrible the reason for that vote was.

430 - While being threatened with an alleged scumslip, MT unvotes Loopdan because "I don't see any point in keeping my vote on Loop atm, he is looking more and more towny. I feel that if he was scum he would have immediately jumped on this new wagon of mine, especially with my vote still on him. My vote also has stopped putting any pressure on him because now those on Loop's wagon have moved elsewhere." Note that Loopdan was still at L-2 when MT unvoted. Shadow had left the wagon, but Penguin and Thor were still there. In 430, MT then votes for Creature, which is the first vote on Creature.

488 - MT calls the vote-list "ridiculous" (which it was) and joins the Shadow wagon as the third vote (with Hark and Creature, who soon change their votes to lucca/serra and Penguin, respectively). The entirety of MT's explanation is "Looked fine before but now he's slipping."

616 - After the Shadow wagon collapsed, MT joins the next wagon, which is on serrapaladin. Again being the third vote on that wagon (with Hark and Loopdan).

830 - At this point, MT is now the 4th vote on serrapaladin (BlankFace had also joined the wagon). But in post 822, Penguin changed his Loopdan vote to BlankFace, and then here in 830 MT changed from serrapaladin to BlankFace, putting Blank at L-1 (with Creature, serra, and Penguin).

[Loopdan]

Chirp.

So no MT then? What do you think about what shadow and I have said.

Would you want Peng or blank?

I'm still reading and writing. Give me a minute.

[Loopdan]

Here are the things I don't like about MissTerry:

The reason for the Loopdan vote, that even others on the wagon said was a bad reason to vote me.

Talking about being tired and needing sleep as an excuse for not posting. If you can post about being tired, you can post a quick observation about the game.

Saying stuff like "I am very very confused", "Aha, getting interesting now are we?", "In defense of meself" (same post), "Lol", etc. Could be newbie nervousness, but it comes across as acting.

This vote...

Well that vote list is ridiculous...
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shadow
Looked fine before but now he's slipping.

I really don't like the repeated use of the "You can't use that against me" argument. I pointed this out before. Here are all the times I've found where MT uses this type of defense:

I don't think Shadow can use the fact that I don't respond to questions and my logic doesn't quite add up to say i'm scum because when he is asked for his reasonings, he replies cryptically

His reads are very conflicting for me and I think this has been clear since the beginning of the game
and should not be something I can be scummed for.

I don't see how this statement can be convincingly argued against me.

I think that span of time is sufficient for my reads to change

So some oddball stuff, but I'm not seeing obvscum like Shadow and serrapaladin are.

Not crazy about this wagon, but here's my vote until something better magically appears...

VOTE: MissTerry

[Loopdan]

Not great.

[Loopdan]

MissTerry, who would you like to lynch, in order?

[Loopdan]

Whoever said MissTerry was female?

[Loopdan]

And tell that to Ranger, Titus, and other top MS players who are female and play unemotionally.

[Loopdan]

TOP female players
TOP
Missterry isn't a top player yet.

And so is by definition playing emotionally?

I can buy that MT is town, but that argument does nothing for me.

[Loopdan]

Here's the problem: With Thor gone, we basically have 8 player votes available for any wagon other than BlankFace (where Thor's vote it). Assuming nobody self-votes, we need 5 of 7 votes to lynch. If we have a wagon on scum and the partner doesn't bus, we need 5 of 6 (assuming Thor is town here).

There is no time for other wagons. It's BlankFace or MissTerry.

Hark and Creature-- Choose a viable wagon, please.

BlankFace-- This is just like before with Thor. Are you going to vote your counter-wagon this time?

[Loopdan]

@MissTerry - Please explain why Blank is your top scum-read.

[Loopdan]

Current votes (I think):

BlankFace -- Penguin, MissTerry, Thor
MissTerry -- Shadow, serrapaladin, Loopdan
PenguinPower -- Hark
Thor -- Creature
Creature -- BlankFace

[Loopdan]

I am logging off and probably won't be back on for about five hours.

[Loopdan]

Phone posting.

@MT-- Dump your reads and claim, please.

@Hark-- please give some time for reactions after the claim before hammering.

[Loopdan]

Everyone be careful what you say here. If you are the other PR, or MT is lying and you are doc, you do not want to say anything that lets scum find you.

[Loopdan]

I don't know what optimal town play is here.

MT, can you point to any breadcrumbs to lend evidence to your claim?

[Loopdan]

On the phone checking in.

Isn't optimal play to lynch Blank and force scum to use their NK on the claimed doc?

[Loopdan]

Or just lynch the claimed doc? I will not vote anybody who has not already claimed. We lynch MT or Blank.

[Loopdan]

VOTE: Blank

[Loopdan]

Still need two more votes to lynch Blank, after MT changed votes.

Not liking Creature jumping around here.

[Loopdan]

And who claims like this? That's odd.

Claim: Doctor

[Loopdan]

Is this the part were I make a claim? Does Hark's post coins as an intent to hammer?

Yes. Looks like a Pengo wagon isn't happening, and Blank is obvtown.

I intend to hammer.

I don't care if Blank is obvtown. We don't lynch the claimed doc. If MT survives the NK, we wait for the counterclaim and lynch her tomorrow. If she is town then, we lynch whoever counterclaimed doc Day 2.

The doc claim will take care of itself. The worst thing we can do now is lynch MT. We learn nothing compared to what we learn by leaving her alive.

[Loopdan]

Hark?

Shadow?

Serrapaladin?

[Loopdan]

You see this, right?

All three of you can't be scum.

[Loopdan]

UNVOTE:

I don't like any of this...

How about like shadow?

What the hell was this?

[Loopdan]

For the record, I was not going to risk a no-lynch by moving to Thor.

[Loopdan]

I'm lynching MT tomorrow. Someone else crumbed doc.

[Loopdan]

I would love to hear more from Loopdan about this:

I'm lynching MT tomorrow. Someone else crumbed doc.

That was WIFOM for scum to suck on overnight. I think it's more likely MT is town than scum and wanted scum to NK elsewhere. I have no idea if anybody crumbed doc, but figured saying that might save MT Night 1.