Newbie 1725: Innocents, Inc. [Game Over!]

[Loopdan]

I'm not sure what to think of the fact that none of you have asked me my opinion on Hark's defense of me. That seems like such an obvious thing to ask if you were trying to determine my alignment and any possible connection to Hark.

Your lack of comment on it was info enough for me.
But if you need someone to ask you about it before commenting on something happening in the game I suppose we can wait around and see if anyone obliges you.

So you don't think it's odd that nobody asked my thoughts on Hark's over the top defense of me? And how can you say I didn't comment on it when I literally just brought it up? I didn't comment immediately because I was waiting to see others' responses to Hark's posts about me.

And if anybody cares, the main problem I have with Hark's defense of me is that early in the game he said I didn't play like a newb, and he questioned me about it, yet he uses my newbness to defend me now.

[Loopdan]

@BlankFace-- You have 5 total posts, which have done nothing to advance town. Play the game or replace out already.

^This is where the wagon should be. Why our experienced players aren't helping with this is beyond me.

[Loopdan]

I'll be posting a full readslist tomorrow when I get home from work, I've been extremely busy the last few days and my allergies are ripping me a new one at the minute. Apologies for the lack of content

Any progress on that reads list?

[Loopdan]

@innocentvillager -- Requesting an updated VC, please.

[innocentvillager]

Looking for a Draynth replacement, per request.

Just as a general note on how often I'm posting the VC since people have been asking for VC a lot: I will try to post the VC at least once a day (unless basically nothing has changed or no posts are gone), if I miss a day somehow when you really think one is necessary, let me know.

	VOTECOUNT 1.3
Player	Being voted by (in chronological order)	Number of Votes
1. PenguinPower	Harkonnen97	1
2. MissTerry
3. lucca261
4. Harkonnen97
5. Loopdan	PenguinPower, Thor665, MissTerry	3 (L-2)
6. Creature	BlankFace	1
7. BlankFace	lucca261, Creature, Loopdan	2
8. Draynth
9. Thor665

Not voting: Draynth

Deadline to lynch is in (expired on 2016-07-23 01:09:00)

With 9 eligible to vote, it's 5 to lynch

Please let me know if there are errors in the VC, or have any other questions in general. Don't forget to bold such requests to me.

[/quote]

[Thor665]

So you don't think it's odd that nobody asked my thoughts on Hark's over the top defense of me?

Not really, no.
Should I?
I mean, we all saw it happen, multiple people commented that it was happening, at that stage the onus is on you to add thoughts if you have them. The game is not based around questions people ask others, it is also made around observations that town and scum add, and observations that they opt not to add.

And how can you say I didn't comment on it when I literally just brought it up? I didn't comment immediately because I was waiting to see others' responses to Hark's posts about me.

I feel like you just answered this for me.
If you admit that you were intentionally not responding to it - why does it shock you to then have someone say 'yeah, looks like he wasn't responding to it'.
That would actually make sense.
It's double talk like this that is keeping my vote locked on you.

And if anybody cares, the main problem I have with Hark's defense of me is that early in the game he said I didn't play like a newb, and he questioned me about it, yet he uses my newbness to defend me now.

I feel like you're implying some hypocrisy there, but I fail to see it - what does him saying you didn't look like a newbie have to do with him later suggesting a case on you is bad because you're a newbie? You told him you were a newbie when he asked, right? So he knows you're a newbie whether you look like one or not - so to then suggest that is a valid defense of you appears to have internal logic (though I will agree I don't think it's *actually* a valid logic to clear you, but the internal logic appears to make sense).

Meh.

[PenguinPower]

What is it...about 4 hours before we can ask to a prod for BlankFace? With Draynth and Luca not far behind. Those three really need to contribute something or ask to replace out...not helping.

[Draynth]

^see the VC above, I've asked to replace out.

Basically I've been a bit overwhelmed in work and I've been sick with the flu for about a week now and I just don't have the time to commit to a game right now. Sorry everyone, good luck!

[Creature]

Let me see, BlankFace forgot this game existed.

[Loopdan]

What is it...about 4 hours before we can ask to a prod for BlankFace? With Draynth and Luca not far behind. Those three really need to contribute something or ask to replace out...not helping.

Your power is in your vote.

[Creature]

I am thinking there must have on scum in BlankFace/Draynth.

My head says it's BlankFace but my gut says it's Draynth.

You need to explain that last sentence. It looks like you are testing the waters without committing or giving reasons.

BlankFace is logically scum because him tunneling and disappearing is a huge red flag.

Draynth looks scum because his posts look like how a scum would post.

[Creature]

Though, I feel more confident on Blank than Draynth tbh.

[Creature]

From the newbies, the only one I am not town reading decently/strongly is PenguinPower.

[Loopdan]

Town!Thor, I'd like to see you scum hunt, rather than just post walls of logic nitpicking. You look like you've dived deep into a pool of confirmation bias.

Scum!Thor, your inability to advance reads looks bad. Your "scum hunting" is almost entirely reactive.

[Thor665]

BlankFace is logically scum because him tunneling and disappearing is a huge red flag.

Draynth looks scum because his posts look like how a scum would post.

I kinda buy into Blank simply because he has been logging onto the site.

Town!Thor, I'd like to see you scum hunt, rather than just post walls of logic nitpicking. You look like you've dived deep into a pool of confirmation bias.

How does scumunting look if not what I'm doing?
Because this is how I always scumhunt.
I also don't think you are using confirmation bias correctly.

Scum!Thor, your inability to advance reads looks bad. Your "scum hunting" is almost entirely reactive.

I think all scumhunting is reactive by definition - so...sure?

[MissTerry]

In post 184, MissTerry wrote:
By saying that he's never played scum he is saying that he is not scum and therefore is town, not a wise claim to make in my opinion if you want to stay alive and help the town.

I fail to follow this - pretty much if you're not claiming town then you're claiming scum, which is an even worse claim whether or not you want to help town.
So what's the issue here? We're all claiming town, I'm pretty sure. If you're not, let me know

(I will be answering the questions one by one since I'm on mobile, if I didn't answer your question so far, wait and it should be coming. If not, remind me)
As you said, it's agknowledged at this point that we are all claiming town (anyone wants to let me otherwise, please do tell), that's why I don't think constantly saying outright, hey I'm town! Is a very townish thing to do. But it could be a slipup, we're both newbies. That kind of a post just sets off red flags for me.

[BlankFace]

I kinda buy into Blank simply because he has been logging onto the site.

I'm literally

always

logged into the site. I have a tab open and never turn off my computer. Plus, I have been lurking and skimming. Waiting, really.

ISOs:

Creature - Null/Scum. I started lurking to see his reaction. I wanted to see if he'd jump onto me like he jumped onto Thor. He did, albeit a little later on than I really expected. I disagree with 103, but we can save that for after the game. Just saying that there are town reasons to lurk. That said, most of his 'hunting' revolves around pushing anyone who is lurking. I also need to look into how the Draynth wagon built to gauge my feelings of Draynth going from strong town to scum in Creature's eyes. As far as I can see, Creature doesn't say why he went from reconsidering Draynth except for him going under the radar. All of this makes him difficult to sort out. Because his opening is either explosive/paranoid town or just a very strange attempt to look like he's hunting. With Thor actually not jumping into the game until pretty late, it's not easy to sort that out. But his hunting after that has been incredibly subpar. I would love to see him explain his readslist from 203.

Draynth - Eh. Entrance is strong. Falls off later on. I can understand RL getting in the way so I'll wait for the replacement to come in. Null

Hark - Don't like 24. I mean, in RVS it's kind of okay? Since the push out of RVS was Creature's push on Thor's inactivity, I kind of see where Hark is coming from but I don't see the evidence to support it. Following it up with 46 though makes it worse. Same issue I had with Creature, IF you have suspicions, why push the person who isn't posting? It's worse in Hark's case because he was pairing Creature with Thor. Why push someone you can't really pressure? A Creature vote would have given him MUCH more info, instead he went after the person who couldn't give him much of anything at the time. This isn't hunting, unless he was looking for Creature's reaction? And Creature's reaction was to vote Thor, 51. Does not look like bussing to me. I don't think that's the case though, because he continues to assert a Creature/Thor scumteam 60. So I'm kind of confused as to where Hark is coming from here. Hark does eventually drop the Creature/Thor theory in 108. I just don't like how he went after that. The way he tried to apply pressure is off. 211 is much better. That post is town as hell. And his interactions with Thor were decent as well. If I look past the timing of his response to Creature voting Thor, Hark is probably my top town at this point.

Loopdan - 52 is gross. If there's a lot wrong with 46 and Loopdan can't decide if it's scum or bad town play, why in the hell is he not putting pressure there? There's nothing to respond to with this post. Loopdan doesn't offer anything other than "I don't like this and can't make up my mind." Limits interactions, tries to make it look like he is hunting. He eventually follows up to say it was to help sort Hark out. I can sort of see it in 115 and on. Taking a theory from a town read and running with it is kind of okay in my book. He adds more pressure onto that line of thought again.

It seems like people were pushing Loopdan because of his Hark vote? Or for no apparent reason at all, looking at the quote tree in 181. Loop's reaction to Thor's [bullshit] explanation I like. 204 I don't like 204 though. There

was

a case, or at least a suspicion, that Thor was scum with Creature. Loop even pushes that in 115. So even if the vote goes away, that line of thought was still there.

I think my major issue with Loopdan is that there is a lack of independent hunting from the slot. The Hark pressure started with Creature, IIRC. The Creature/Thor scumteam theory came from Hark. Other than that, I haven't seen anything that could be considered his own line of though. I can understand following up on a townread's ideas but even then, you still have to have your own. The way he backs off of Thor. The way he follows PenquinPower. There's a trend of him sheeping.


BRB: Need to go get some smokes.

[MissTerry]

I'm reading back through and Creature's attack on Thor (especially #199) seems very tunnely. When he was asking repeated questions about Thor's absence, which Thor would answer with valid logic, (didn't see the game because I didn't open the forum opened notice) and asks for evidence to Creature's claims that he lurks as town. Creature asks the question Thor just answered.
I was getting a town read on Creature before but now he is looking more scummy from his interaction with Thor. It may just be the IC Magic at work.

So in response to who would I most suspect of being Loop's scumbuddy is Creature because he's the only one I am getting any other significant scumreads from.

[Harkonnen97]

I don't see your point.

You're saying the people voting Loop want to lynch him, not test him - I'm questioning why that would be an attitude unique to scum, as I believe town also vote people to lynch them, not to test them.

You are making this overly complicated. I'm not even sure what was the start of this topic. I think you said "If you think that Loop's pressure on you was town, why isn't our wagon on him town?" ?
Well, while you did give your reasoning, I don't like MissTerry's and Penguin's reasonings. They don't put pressure. So what's left for Loopdan is to defend himself only against you. And trying to have a verbal fight with you is a fucking endless torture. You just keep asking questions after questions. While some of them are good and I can see town motivation, some of them are also just basic and pointless things, like ... don't know how to say it.

I call it lurking because he has shown that he

does

care about the game and he is reading, but recently he responded when his position was being threatened and claimed it was a coincidence, that he was going to make a contributing post anyway. It just doesn't look right to me.

How does it not look right? He posts semi-regular, it seems perfectly possible that your comment was closely timed with his arrival in thread.
Why do you think it isn't?
I see no evidence to support that conclusion. What am I missing?
If he hadn't been posting for 24 hours and then your comment had him answering it within five minutes, yeah, I'd see your point. But he posted throughout the day yesterday, and appears to be doing the same today, no?

No. I disagree. He is always focused on things that concern him. Actually, I realized that he just lied.

He claimed that his second readlist was going to be posted anyway, and it just so happened that I accused him 5 minutes earlier. This is not true.

Not liking Penguin at all right now. He is suspecting Blank and Draynth for focusing on the Creature/Thor conflict. And yet Penguin himself isn't even focusing on anything. He has almost zero to no content. (Though since he is a first-timer, which could be an explanation. Not sure if newbtown or newbscum though. Also don't take it personally, Penguin )

Not sure why you are asserting I have zero content. I'm pretty sure that since I started in the game 2 days ago I provided my readlist and rationale, and prodded responses made by LoopDan. My read on him has not changed. My read on you may since you asserted that LoopDan is a storng townread for you simply because he is a newbie and his statements must have been townie because he is new. Almost circular logic there.

Let me rephrase that. Penguin is suspecting Blank and Draynth for focusing solely on Thor/Creature, and not talking about anything else. However, Penguin himself isn't doing anything either. If he thinks that lack of presence is scummy, why is he doing it himself?

Sorry I'm not making any WoT. Not my playstyle. I suspect Blank and Draynth for focusing solely on Thor/Creature debate AND not posting any other content. Again, you state that I'm not doing anything, but that's patently false. I've already said that we need to move on from Thor's activity level and start focusing on other things, but until Blank, Draynth, Luca start weighing in, I don't have a whole lot to analyze. That's almost 50% of the players.

Penguin, spill the beans.

Spill what beans?



{}
{Lucca, Creature, Thor, MissTerry}
{Hark}
{BlankFace, Draynth}
{LoopDan}

Take a look at this.

New readlist:

His whole #218 post is defending himself against my accusations, and ends it with a NEW READLIST. In which he puts me from "Lean Town" to "Null", in retaliation to me scumreading him. Why would he put me at null anyway? Isn't he scumreading me? The only people he is scumreading in that post are the person who was the biggest wagon on him, and who has the IC verbally pounding him, and the 2 inactives.

The point is, he doesn't admit that his new readlist is in response to my accusation.

Because I felt that the question has no value."what made you think I was blind tunneling?".
Answer: I don't know. That's how it looked to me. I was wrong.

That sounds like the answer of a scum player who is making stuff up.
Do you honestly have no idea why you thought I was tunneling?
How many of your reads do you have no idea why you said them?
Should we trust anything you say in any way at all?

This is my 5th Forum Mafia game. I've never seen someone make such walls and ask so much questions like you did before. I thought that it was something serious. Now I just realize it's your playstyle.

I don't have an issue because you aren't obliged to encourage people more, I just feel like you should be doing it.

I feel like everyone should constantly sheep me, sadly we don't always get what we want.

I'm not sure if Penguin and MissTerry voted for Loop before or after you showed up. But you are using your IC magic and experience to point out every little detail in him that you find scummy. And yet, you refuse to look from the viewpoint of town!Loopdan.

Penguin voted after, I think Miss Terry voted before, unvoted, and then later re-voted.
I can't help it if other people decide to sheep me due to perceived experience - there is nothing I have said suggesting they should or shouldn't, and it is silly to hold me accountable for how other people choose to react to me.
I see no evidence to support your complaint about Loop - I *started* the game town reading him.
Then he started to act like scum.
I also appear to still be talking to him - so I'm giving him a chance to change my mind (or at least faking that I am, I suppose).
What else do you want?

As far as I can tell the complaint is that I'm not town reading him.
Yeah, I'm not. i was, now I'm not - that has no validity to show that I decided for an arbitrary reason to refuse to think of him as town. In fact, it tends to suggest the opposite.

I don't really understand you here. Are you asking me why I am townreading him? I've already said why.

You're calling him obv. town - obv. town is a lot stronger than saying you town read him.
If you simply town read him because you think the wagon on him makes no sense (to which Loop himself would disagree with you on - so I think you're clearly wrong on this point) and your other reason is "nothing he has done is scummy!" to which I would also disagree. He has ducked questions, lazy scumhunted, and not actually done much to look pro-town, all of which is perfectly functional scum play.
Considering you appear to make up reads out of wholecloth, I am left kinda iffy on accepting a read so thinly explained that clearly is ignoring things in the thread.

So he's not obv. town, and your read on him appears pretty weak to my mind - so I see no reason why it should come as a surprise that people disagree with that read. It's not strange at all - he's a scummy slot.

[MissTerry]

MissTerry have you ever been scum? Also, do you claim that you're town?

Because following your logic, if you claim that you're town and you never played scum before, you are basically claiming scum. Respond to this please.

Loopdan is a newbie. Sure, his 52 isn't the most pressuring post I've seen. So and what? You are treating him like an IC, and nitpicking at him for everything.

He is my biggest town read atm. His intention to pressure me is town. It did NOT look like he was just doing it to make it seem like he is putting pressure. Why? Because he didn't make it obvious at all. Calling my post horrible implies that he outright rejects interacting with me, and basically calls me a newb. This DOES apply pressure, since it doesn't let me defend myself.

This is my first game of forum mafia, I have not played scum. There you go, I say I am town. Will you trust it wen I say it that way? Probably not and continue to look for reads on me, like the rest of us are soon for each other.
That's why I think it's pointless to make claims like that.

Loopdan is a newbie, so am I. Am I nitpicking him? By saying I'm voting for him soley because of that one town post is nitpicking. I said that was my main reason to vote for him at the time because not much was standing out to me.
Reading over his recent posts and responses to Thor's questioning, I'm not so sure anymore. But my vote will stay on him until I have a purpose to change it.

[Harkonnen97]

Blank, can you please share all of the reasons that you thought that it would be a good idea to lurk if you are town?

[Harkonnen97]

Also sorry for that long ass wall. I should probably start dissecting Thor's walls when I answer then.

[MissTerry]

Why, what's confusing you?

Who is scumreading who and why, but that's just something I need to read and think about to figure out.

[Harkonnen97]

MissTerry, which particular interaction is confusing you? Or is it all of them?

[BlankFace]

Lucca: Why does anyone have Lucca as a townread right now?

I don't like how all Blank posts are all about Thor/Creature, also, I have some other reasons to vote him, also.

Sums up almost all of his posts too. Excluding his first two RVS posts, the next four are Creature/Thor related. You could say five if you count that the question posed to Hark in 57. In addition to that he votes me for that and for "other reasons", and when Thor asked him what those reasons were, he never followed through. So I will ask again; what about me besides lurking/focusing on Creature makes me scum? Other than that, he hasn't really added anything. Looking forward to his catch-up post. Scum.

Miss Terry - Starts the Loopdan wagon, if I'm reading correctly, because of Loopdan's assertion of being town. Personally, that assertion to me is NAI. But more importantly, MT says that a Loopdan post is bugging them and then follows through with it. Actively hunting, showing their math, so to speak. Pretty town. Not much else to add. Nothing pings me.

PenguinPower - Offers the first real valid reasons I can see to scumread Loopdan based off of that self-meta post. Instead of focusing on the assertion and the meta, focuses on the way it was said. 220 is town as hell. Makes me rethink my position on Hark, but I'd have to go back and reread that exchange for myself with context. Actually, reading through Penguin's posts, Hark does seem to be throwing out misreps left and right. Which is super odd. My issue with Hark's push onto Penguin is that Penguin replaced in and then was pretty much on the ball. I'm not seeing a lack of content or focus from Penguin in any of these posts so I don't see where Hark is coming from. Either he is seeing the post count and going off of that? Or.... I don't know. I see nothing that Hark is saying in Penguin's play. Penguin replaces Hark as top town, Hark drops down townlean.

Thor:

Apologies for my lateness - I blame the mod for not giving me a game link and therefore it never going into my bookmark queue.

No offense, but poor excuse. It took a click to find this game. You got a PM saying the day had started. You not checking it is not the mods fault. It took me two clicks to find the game and bookmark it after I got my roll pm. You had two PMs before you had to be prodded but whatever. This is probably NAI.

I agree with Hark's sentiments about Thor's Loop vote and do not like his 176. If Loopdan was sliding, why not comment on it? It pretty much amounts to a naked vote and when prompted, he doesn't really offer why Loopdan started to slide.

If I explained why you are scum would you ever agree with me? Don't really see the point.

I changed my read on you from town to scum because though you opened kind of nicely with actual scumhunting but then shifted to saying a whole lot of nothing and also advancing nothing. At this point I feel like you're actively trying not to advance anything - just coasting.

Bullshit. First of all, the bolded. A LOT of this game is pushing and seeing where it goes. If you aren't pushing, you aren't hunting. Jumped onto the Loopdan wagon and then when called out for not giving reasoning, this is the worst thing that he could have said. There is ALWAYS a point to show your thought process as town unless your are gambiting or reaction testing. And since reaction testing is such an easy cop out and this does NOT look like reaction testing, I have to take it at face value. Second, I've already covered that Loop was saying a decent amount. If anyone was coasting, Dray and I should have been the first that Thor jumped on. Everything about this is off and the vote itself is opportunistic. Loopdan says something close to where I'm coming from; transparency helps town and Thor shuts it down by saying that he doesn't have to be transparent to Loop because he is scumreading Loop. The issue with that is that there are seven other players in this game who would LOVE to see where Thor is coming from here. Ignoring them, making yourself deliberately obtuse, and hiding behind your vote does not help down. Does not advance anything.

Then start the Creature back and forths and now I do have a reason to bitch about this:

There is nothing I said that implies I don't check my inbox - in fact I actively stated that I had, which would be the opposite of saying I don't.
Why did that confuse you?

It's confusing as fuck because if you check your inbox you'd know the game had started. And even if you didn't have a game link, it is not hard to find. It is pure laziness. So yeah, you were lurking. You

knew

the game was ongoing and chose to do nothing. Don't blame the mod for your laziness.

Reading through these walls, Thor just feels slimy. Scum.

VOTE: Thor