Newbie 1725: Innocents, Inc. [Game Over!]

[Harkonnen97]

I want to vote for lucca, but since the slot is inactive what's the point

VOTE: MissTerry

She is at L-2

Missy, please respond to these:

MissTerry, what do you find wrong with Creature's reads?

That last sentence. "...should not be something I can be scummed for." Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but The subtext of that reads like scum saying "yeah I'm scum, but that's a bad reason for scum reading me."

Also, why are you townreading me?

[Loopdan]

@Hark--Why the MT vote? As recently as #397 you had MT as lean-town. Is there more to it than my pointing out what

might

be a scumslip?

[Harkonnen97]

Yes.

[Thor665]

Hey everyone, looks like there's been some discussion on this so I want to apologize for any confusion/inconvenience that my lack of providing a game link has caused. I try to include it when I can but sometimes I get lazy when phoneposting (and the thread hadn't been up yet when I sent the role PMs since I like to do those as quickly as possible because I know y'all are curious) and figure you guys'll just find it yourselves, lol. This is the first time such an issue has been brought to my attention and I will make a stronger effort in the future to include game links in PMs. Again, sorry for the confusion.

For the record, there really hasn't been discussion on it - I personally think this is something all mods should do, but I wouldn't have even made it a thing if people hadn't been repeatedly wanting a walk through of my lack of realizing the game had started.
No actual worries on my end.
...that said, I do think you'll be a better mod for always doing so in the future

[Harkonnen97]

Yes.

To add more to this, since you will probably ask me about it, Loop. I looked through MissTerry's ISO and I found a major scumslip (not the thing you pointed out). I'll explain it later, waiting for her response first.

[MissTerry]

----Interested in seeing what scumslip Hark claims to have found but for now----

MissTerry, what do you find wrong with Creature's reads?

The part that initially made him look scummy was his reaction to Thor's questioning. Repeating questions about whether he had checked his inbox (post 199). I don't see any holes in Thor's story for not seeing the game, and asking over and over made him look really scummy.
I did not agree with the the logic that Thor and Creature were scumbuddies because Creature predicted Thor would "lurk" and then did. I believe that was coincidence and can't be something Creature is scummed for.
Onto his vote on me,
Up until post 298 he has had me as town, and in that post has me in the "getting worried about" slot. Why did he put his vote on me instead of the two he has scum reads on? He has me in that slot for reasons that I responded to and he has not answered yet. Was it to put pressure on me to get me to engage more? I feel I was already engaging sufficiently when asked questions. Is he joining the new wagon to get a town lynched?
Also worth noting about him is that Creature has been on all of the major wagons so far, Blank's, Loop's (briefly) and now mine.

I don't see any point in keeping my vote on Loop atm, he is looking more and more towny. I feel that if he was scum he would have immediately jumped on this new wagon of mine, especially with my vote still on him. My vote also has stopped putting any pressure on him because now those on Loop's wagon have moved elsewhere.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Creature

And I know I just made a point to call this post town, but I missed something the first time I read it:

Readlist:

Town: Hark, Penguin
Leantown: Thor, Shadow, Blank
Null: Lucca
Leanscum: Creature, Loopdan

Reasonings for the ones I feel will be asked about, feel free to ask about someone I haven't included here

Thor:

Seems to me like he is genuinely scumhunting, and has let up on nitpicky questioning and explaining his logic.

Shadow:

Here we go, he comes in and immediately puts the loop wagon at L-1, and says he did it without reading the thread. I don't think this is a scummy
thing to do because judging from how he has played so far (calling people stupid, saying outright that he was reading through and was bored, voting for
the person with no votes) he likes an interesting game. I think that voting for me is indicative of active scumhunting, getting a reaction from me when I
previously hadn't been pressured much and don't think doing that is being scummy. His reasons for voting for me are my lack of reaction to his L-1 (which is a valid
complaint since I didn't react with a post) and that my reason for voting for Loop was ridiculous (this has already been voiced by many players). Do I agree with
his reasonings for calling me scum? No. Do I think they make him scummy, also no.

Creature:

Creature is a player i'm having a very hard time reading. I had him scum, town and now again scum. His reads are very conflicting for me and I think this has been clear since the beginning of the game
and should not be something I can be scummed for.

That last sentence. "...should not be something I can be scummed for." Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but The subtext of that reads like scum saying "yeah I'm scum, but that's a bad reason for scum reading me."

I don't see how this statement can be convincingly argued against me. What if I say that's just how I talk? Or I can say the same for your claims as town that to me read as "heyo, I'm definitely mafia because I'm telling you I'm town". A reason which you previously dismissed as ridiculous.

Also, why are you townreading me?

Should I not be townreading you?
I like your consistent questioning of people. Asking for their reads and the reasons for them. And for giving your gut feeling on scums while also looking for reasons to explain them.

[Creature]

Up until post 298 he has had me as town, and in that post has me in the "getting worried about" slot. Why did he put his vote on me instead of the two he has scum reads on?

The power of re-reading.

Also, I don't need preferences when my intention is pressuring.

[MissTerry]

Up until post 298 he has had me as town, and in that post has me in the "getting worried about" slot. Why did he put his vote on me instead of the two he has scum reads on?

The power of re-reading.

Also, I don't need preferences when my intention is pressuring.

My bad, not 298, 398.
So if your vote is to pressure, if it came to it would you hammer me so far?

Have to sleep now, bye.

[Creature]

Depends on your responses.

Currently I prefer Shadow_step or PenguinPower (or maybe lucca261) over you.

[Thor665]

Depends on your responses.

Currently I prefer Shadow_step or PenguinPower (or maybe lucca261) over you.

If your purpose is pressure - aren't you kind of...y'know, utterly killing the pressure by admitting that the vote is pressure and that you don't particularly want to lynch the slot.

What are you even doing with this "pressure" you are supposedly working on?
You don't actually feel like you're pressuring anyone in my opinion of pressure - you're kind of random vote moving and occasionally asking questions - but compared to what I consider creating actual pressure (my push on Loop) you're doing nothing with it. What do you think you're doing?

[Creature]

Well, it's a pressure vote, not a reaction test.

I can say it's a pressure wagon that could turn into a lynch wagon if the responses aren't good.

[Thor665]

So the pressure is that maybe you'll change your mind?
So it's like "hey, A, I suspect B and C more than you - but depending on your answer I might change mah mind!"

Why do you even need to vote them for that? Why not just ask the question while voting the player you actually currently find most scummy?

[Creature]

Because I don't like keeping my vote on a single person, it looks like no single progress is made.

[Creature]

Yes.

To add more to this, since you will probably ask me about it, Loop. I looked through MissTerry's ISO and I found a major scumslip (not the thing you pointed out). I'll explain it later, waiting for her response first.

This is what's interesting me.

[Thor665]

Because I don't like keeping my vote on a single person, it looks like no single progress is made.

You would only keep your vote on one person if your top scumread never changes - all I'm asking is how voting the person you're asking a question of changes anything to make you more able to get accurate information from the question.

There's nothing that forces you to not question people you're not voting - for instance, I'm not voting you, yet I'm being able to ask you questions to try to understand you. Would it really help me to be voting you right now during this process? I don't see it. I've also had a vote on Loop for quite some time now - does that weaken my vote somehow?

[Loopdan]

I ISOed MissTerry, and don't see whatever Hark sees.

I agree with Thor that Creature's pressure vote exerts little pressure when he admits it isn't on his top scum-read. I suppose this is one reason why some players are reluctant to provide complete read-lists unless it's absolutely necessary.

[Creature]

I post readlists because I like PoEing scum, town hunting is easier than scum hunting.

And yes, I am trying to get townreads specially from those at the two bottom lists.

[innocentvillager]

	VOTECOUNT 1.7
Player	Being voted by (in chronological order)	Number of Votes
1. PenguinPower
2. MissTerry	Shadow_step, Creature, Harkonnen97	3 (L-2)
3. lucca261	Loopdan	1
4. Harkonnen97
5. Loopdan	PenguinPower, Thor665	2
6. Creature	MissTerry	1
7. BlankFace	lucca261	1
8. Shadow_step
9. Thor665	BlankFace	1

Not voting:

Deadline to lynch is in (expired on 2016-07-23 01:09:00)

With 9 eligible to vote, it's 5 to lynch

Please let me know if there are errors in the VC, or have any other questions in general. Don't forget to bold such requests to me.

[Harkonnen97]

There's nothing scummy that I found in Missy's ISO. Things have been easy for her so far this game. I wanted to see how she would handle pressure. And you know what?

UNVOTE:

I like what I saw. Moving her from Lean Town to Town.

VOTE: Shadow

Sorry if this sounds rude, but if you keep refusing to give your full reads list I will not oppose policy lynching you.

[Loopdan]

@BlankFace-- Your vote is on Thor. Updated read there? Your take on his newbie replacements stats answer?

@Shadow-- In 376 you said MissTerry's ISO looks "horrible." In 377, you pointed out two of her posts that you have problems with. What do you make of MT's more recent posts?

@Thor-- IC question: I've read games where players vote no lynch. In what situations is this a good strategy for town in a newbie game? Non-IC question: If you can't have a Loopdan lynch, who is your next option at this point?

[Thor665]

Because I don't like keeping my vote on a single person, it looks like no single progress is made.

You would only keep your vote on one person if your top scumread never changes - all I'm asking is how voting the person you're asking a question of changes anything to make you more able to get accurate information from the question.

There's nothing that forces you to not question people you're not voting - for instance, I'm not voting you, yet I'm being able to ask you questions to try to understand you. Would it really help me to be voting you right now during this process? I don't see it. I've also had a vote on Loop for quite some time now - does that weaken my vote somehow?

Repeating these since you either missed them or are intentionally avoiding answering.
If intentional - could you mention that so I don't have to keep repeating them?

@Thor-- IC question: I've read games where players vote no lynch. In what situations is this a good strategy for town in a newbie game?

This is a slightly contentious question for me, as my answer is 'basically never' but that's an answer lots of people wouldn't agree with, so let me just describe the *theory* behind no lynching.

The point is to get scum to kill someone who might be scum, so you can go 'aha, that person was town!' and help in picking scum the next phase.
A No Lynch is conceptually the smart move to make when the following two points are *both* true;

1. You are in mylo (as in, if you mislynch, scum wins, and yet you can no lynch and scum won't win)
2. You literally see nobody that scum could kill (besides yourself I suppose) that you think wouldn't narrow down your odds of picking scum correctly the next phase. So, if there's a confirmed town - never no lynch. if you have a rock solid town read, don't no lynch. If you, yourself, are the strongest town read for everyone else - don't no lynch.

(3. Sometimes it also makes sense in certain PR combos/situations - like only one scum alive, a JKer living, and a no kill the night before from scum for some reason, or maybe a Doc and Cop alive,a nd a dead RBer - special setups like that)

The reason I often say "basically never" is because I think a lot of players are trained/conditioned/et al to only pat attention to #1 and to not think about #2 at all.
So I think it's on you to examine my stated #2 and decide for yourself how valid that is as part of the strategy.

Non-IC question: If you can't have a Loopdan lynch, who is your next option at this point?

Creature.

[Loopdan]

Thanks for the explanation, Thor.


I just read Lucca's other game here on MS, and am liking my vote on that slot even more, now.

[Thor665]

I just read Lucca's other game here on MS, and am liking my vote on that slot even more, now.

Why is that?

[Creature]

Thor665

441 sort of answers your question.

I could land my vote on the scummiest person, but I like to test who I am having doubt at.

[Thor665]

And having your vote on them while testing helps...how...?