Newbie 1725: Innocents, Inc. [Game Over!]

[Harkonnen97]

@Paladin--No, your ISOs aren't similiar. Unlike Shadow, you are polite and experienced.

Your actions, presence, and outputs are what's similiar.

[BlankFace]

If you were trying to be deliberately obtuse, pointing that fact out defeats the purpose. You act like scum don't have enough to go on as it is. Either you cooperate or I death tunnel you for the rest of the game. It is your call.

IF you are town, you need to start acting like it. Because as far as I'm reading, the majority of the town is scum reading you. IF you are town, help us prevent a mislynch and be transparent.

[serrapaladin]

Then your point about not giving reads is pointless and asking for clarification on them is valid.

Of course asking for clarification on specific reads is valid. I'm just not going to replace in and make a town to scum list. If you'd like to death-tunnel me for that, good luck to you and this town.

[serrapaladin]

@Paladin--No, your ISOs aren't similiar. Unlike Shadow, you are polite and experienced.

Your actions, presence, and outputs are what's similiar.

Do you actually believe this?

[BlankFace]

Then your point about not giving reads is pointless and asking for clarification on them is valid.

Of course asking for clarification on specific reads is valid. I'm just not going to replace in and make a town to scum list. If you'd like to death-tunnel me for that, good luck to you and this town.

And your reasoning for not answering is moot, if I can just go back and get a jist of where your thoughts are. So what is the point of not being clear about it?

[serrapaladin]

Because I don't want to at all points have a recent public opinion about everyone. Why is this so difficult? Take, say, Hark, who's generally town-read. If I come in and give a bunch of reasons for why he is obv-town, who benefits from that?

Fuck.

[BlankFace]

Town benefits. I don't care if you end up rehashing shit.

Because right now it seems to me that you aren't giving reads because you don't expect to be in this game that long and want to avoid giving anything up as scum.

[serrapaladin]

No, it really doesn't. I'm sorry you feel that way.

[Loopdan]

@innocentvillager

-- I know you said you do vote counts daily, but this is a very active game right now and we are approaching deadline. I'd like to request more frequent vote counts until Night 1, please.

[Loopdan]

I think serrapaladin got to L-1 without anybody noticing.

UNVOTE: while I check for sure.

[Loopdan]

Never mind. Hark had moved his vote to Shadow.

[serrapaladin]

I should really leave this be, but things like this annoy me. Replacing in is annoying, because reading 500+ posts and understanding the narrative behind them takes time. Still, people that flake can ruin games if they're not replaced, so on this site enough people do it for things to work. For you guys to expect replacements to come in and immediately form full reads on what went before is just incredibly entitled. Putting a fucking timer on when to deliver these by is just insulting and made me want to replace right back out. Some people like to craft full catch-up posts with detailed reads on everyone, some only skim the game, others don't even do that. Reads come from interactions, and the way to get good reads is to start interacting with people. For you guys to tell others to stop responding to me is just insane. Not only is it insulting, it's also really, really stupid for the progress of the game.

I could certainly have clobbered together a half-arsed reads list from my catch-up, but it wouldn't have been one I'd be happy with, and there are many reasons for why I would want to partially reveal them over time. If I tell someone I think they're leaning scum before I then talk to them about something, they will react differently from doing the same out-of-the-blue. Everyone agreeing how town someone is will get that person night-killed. Giving an exact indications of rankings tells scum whom they need to convince to not get lynched.

[serrapaladin]

You guys insult shadow for his manner, but I'd genuinely rather him than you.

[BlankFace]

I should really leave this be, but things like this annoy me. Replacing in is annoying, because reading 500+ posts and understanding the narrative behind them takes time. Still, people that flake can ruin games if they're not replaced, so on this site enough people do it for things to work. For you guys to expect replacements to come in and immediately form full reads on what went before is just incredibly entitled. Putting a fucking timer on when to deliver these by is just insulting and made me want to replace right back out. Some people like to craft full catch-up posts with detailed reads on everyone, some only skim the game, others don't even do that. Reads come from interactions, and the way to get good reads is to start interacting with people. For you guys to tell others to stop responding to me is just insane. Not only is it insulting, it's also really, really stupid for the progress of the game.

I could certainly have clobbered together a half-arsed reads list from my catch-up, but it wouldn't have been one I'd be happy with, and there are many reasons for why I would want to partially reveal them over time. If I tell someone I think they're leaning scum before I then talk to them about something, they will react differently from doing the same out-of-the-blue. Everyone agreeing how town someone is will get that person night-killed. Giving an exact indications of rankings tells scum whom they need to convince to not get lynched.

Reading a game that you didn't start in does suck. And if you hadn't been interacting with people, if you hadn't had time to digest things, I'd be more than happy to give you a grace period. But deadline is approaching, there are no real wagons going, and your unwillingness to be transparent with almost anything isn't helping us. Even if you had said that you wanted to form your own opinions based off of your own reactions, I'd be much more willing to see this in a positive light, but you didn't. You're also making a lot of assumptions about the NK and that does not help us in the here and now. We do not direct the night kill. If the most townread player in the game is townreading scum, why bother killing them? We can sit around all day going back and forth on that. It doesn't help us sort your alignment.

I'm sorry that you replaced into a slot that absolutely no one can sort because of their activity, that truly sucks. I have been there. You can ask Hark, he was in the game that it last happened to me. I'm not trying to be an asshole, I'm really not. I even gave Lucca town points for their first two or three posts. But the deadline is four days away. I am more than glad to meet you half-way, screw your town reads. Just give me something clear and concise about who you think is scum and why.

If I appear standoffish, if I seem like I'm being a major asshat, it's not my intent. But you can't deny that its hypocritical to dodge questions about your reads and then ask someone to clarify their reads. Just give me something to work with.

If you are looking for interactions, it is give and take.

[innocentvillager]

@innocentvillager

-- I know you said you do vote counts daily, but this is a very active game right now and we are approaching deadline. I'd like to request more frequent vote counts until Night 1, please.

I can't promise a votecount more often than once a day, sorry. But I'll do my best to post one whenever I can.

	VOTECOUNT 1.10
Player	Being voted by (in chronological order)	Number of Votes
1. PenguinPower
2. MissTerry	Shadow_step, serrapaladin	2
3. serrapaladin	MissTerry, BlankFace	2
4. Harkonnen97
5. Loopdan	PenguinPower, Thor665	2
6. Creature
7. BlankFace
8. Shadow_step	Harkonnen97	1
9. Thor665

Not voting: Creature, Loopdan

Deadline to lynch is in (expired on 2016-07-23 01:09:00)

With 9 eligible to vote, it's 5 to lynch

Please let me know if there are errors in the VC, or have any other questions in general. Don't forget to bold such requests to me.

[Shadow_step]

Shadow and Paladin are both playing in the exact same way. They both refuse to give their reads, they claim that it's pro-town, and tunnel on MissTerry. I am willing to bet it's Shadow/Paladin scumbros.

Lololol
Yeah right, captain obvious

[Shadow_step]

In post 488, MissTerry wrote:
Well that vote list is ridiculous...
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shadow
Looked fine before but now he's slipping.


Why? How is he slipping?

He enters the game and immediately puts a wagon at L-1, okay fine, I don't find that scummy, it pushes the game along and all that good stuff. Then he moves from that to just tunneling and ignoring my responses because they are "garbage"

That's funny cause you're the one ignoring my responses.

[Shadow_step]

In a weird world where MT is town, scum would actually want to lynch someone else today and keep both of us(MT and I) alive for day 2.
That would mean scum is between (Blankface, Penguin, Thor) Creature as a outside possibility.

So we need to lynch MT today regardless of any circumstances.

[Creature]

You mean that if MT flips town, you believe scum is in (Blank, Penguin, Thor)?

[serrapaladin]

If I appear standoffish, if I seem like I'm being a major asshat, it's not my intent. But you can't deny that its hypocritical to dodge questions about your reads and then ask someone to clarify their reads. Just give me something to work with.

Show me a specific question I've dodged and I'll answer it. "Give us all of your reads" doesn't count. The only response I delayed was regarding Loop's question about my meta with thor, where I think there's more benefit in someone else looking at the aspect I mean without me conf-biasing it.

Besides the points shadow has made about MT, here's what I've said about MT:

Maybe later, Loop.

I want to figure out who to lynch first. I'm leaning towards MissTerry. Thoughts?

@ Serrapaladin, if you find MT scummy, why aren't you voting them?
It's not long before deadline and you NEED TO VOTE MT NOW.

I'm aware of the deadline, but haven't made up my mind about whether MT or Creature need to pushed. Why do you think Creature is town?

I'd also like to hear Creature's response to 484.

@Loop: when many points against MT rely on reactions to stuff, an ISO isn't necessarily that useful. You seem to like the lack of reactions to Hark's reaction test, and shadow's L-1 vote (for she was notably there, whereas others weren't). I would suggest that as newb-scum, a genuine reaction is harder to come by, which leads to blanks. I don't like 460 at all - it reads to me as "haha yeah I ignored that and it went away". Note that this was after Hark had admitted he didn't actually have anything. 430 was her only genuine reaction to it, and I'm not convinced.

So Creature is annoying, but I think this needs to happen

VOTE: MissTerry

Repeated references to needing sleep and being confused bother me. This is definitely personal, but in early games, I was much more happy to give off-the-cuff remarks as town when tired or drunk, whereas I felt like I needed to be somewhat on it to play scum well.

Blank is the second most scummy right now. Since most of his posts are about Thor being inactive I am waiting to see how he reacts now.

This is one of a few cases of MT's trajectory being wonky, as this was the last reference of Blank before this:

Readlist:
Town: Hark, Penguin
Leantown: Thor, Shadow, Blank
Null: Lucca
Leanscum: Creature, Loopdan

If she flips scum, this is actually looking like decent scum-buddy potential, as Blank made some fairly large posts, including his case against thor in the meantime, which she basically ignored.

696 was a joke.

Repeated references to needing sleep and being confused bother me. This is definitely personal, but in early games, I was much more happy to give off-the-cuff remarks as town when tired or drunk, whereas I felt like I needed to be somewhat on it to play scum well.

As a genuine question can you explain this more? I don't understand what you mean.

If you opened the thread, you presumably had enough time to at least skim recent posts. If you have enough time to post you're too tired to post, you probably have enough time to give an instant reaction to something. If you're town, the worst thing that can happen by being spontaneous or posting when tired is things will look a bit jumbled. If you're scum, you might give yourself away.

Repeated references to needing sleep and being confused bother me.

Frequent needing to sleep remarks before I leave are because I catch up and reply at night, late when I'm lying in bed so when I leave, it's because I'm turning over and actually sleeping

Those posts frequently came a fair amount of time after other posts though.

Also, it's weird how unequally MissTerry and PenguinPower are being treated.

You realise there are specific points being made againt MT, right? Your reasoning reads as: "these are two players that look like lynchbait to me so why do people not treat them the same", which is too simplistic.

[serrapaladin]

I also increasingly think Creature is being deliberately stupid about this because he doesn't want to admit that he didn't bother actually making sense of lucca's meta before sheeping it:

I'd also like to hear Creature's response to 484.

Thought I already answered. About the 48 hours thing, it's not just 48 hours now.

What?

Thor665 says lucca261 being different could be because it's just 48 hours from the day, but lucca should've done something by now.

If MT doesn't have popular support, which it doesn't seem to, that's where I'd want to look next.

[Harkonnen97]

@Paladin--No, your ISOs aren't similiar. Unlike Shadow, you are polite and experienced.

Your actions, presence, and outputs are what's similiar.

Do you actually believe this?

Yes, I do. You are adressing more things than Tunnel_step, but there is definitely a similarity in you two.

Sorry that you are being given a hard time, don't take it personally. But we don't have an obvscum to lynch for today and we are running out of time.

[serrapaladin]

Also, Blank, for the record, I did make explicit my desire for interacting with people before giving a reads list, which was almost immediately met with a handful of votes, dimwit creature trying to put a deadline on me, and several people telling others not to interact with me.

I could give an approximate reads list now, but would rather talk about stuff for a bit for now.

Summary of my thoughts on Creature:

Got sidetracked on the Creature thing:

He's either stubborn/bad or scum. His defaulting to attacking the inactive slots when pressure on thor wasn't sticking has me mildly leaning towards the latter. Also his attitude towards Loop's meta on lucca feels opportunistic.

@shadow: thoughts on lynching creature?

[serrapaladin]

@Paladin--No, your ISOs aren't similiar. Unlike Shadow, you are polite and experienced.

Your actions, presence, and outputs are what's similiar.

Do you actually believe this?

Yes, I do. You are adressing more things than Tunnel_step, but there is definitely a similarity in you two.

Sorry that you are being given a hard time, don't take it personally. But we don't have an obvscum to lynch for today and we are running out of time.

That similarity being we want to lynch MT? I'm genuinely trying to understand your thought process here.

I'm actually not taking things personally, I just think the attitude in this game is pretty toxic.

[Creature]

Thoughts on lynching Thor or Penguin?