non-confirming is surely a scum tell
Mini 460 - Werewolves! Game over.
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Well, we've heard from everyone except ibtuten/replacement. I don't know if our random votes are getting us anywhere. I certainly don't have any good leads yet. xyzzy's "pretending to take me seriously" ranks about a 2 on the 1-10 scumminess scale. Only other thing I see worth mentioning is that morik just happened to place a "random" vote for the poster just before him. Any other ideas?-
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@xyzzy
Are you seriously trying to sell exposing power roles as pro-town strategy?
re-affirmvote: xyzzy
This is shameless power role hunting. I think random bandwagoning is actually a good idea, but Ireallydon't like xyzzy's explanation.
Also the way schismatized happily jumped on board with no questions asked makes me uneasy.-
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That's what we call WIFOM. It's bad reasoning.AISleet wrote: Honestly, if he were scum I don't think either him or schismatized would be so blatant about bandwagoning someone so soon with the actual purpose of lynching.
@schismatized - I am now at 4. If there are 3 people in the mafia, they could quicklynch me right now and Day 1 would end. Now this would be completely worth it if the rest of you could identify all of the quicklynchers as scum, but it's also easy for them to claim ignorance and say they were just trying to increase the pressure, etc etc... it gets a little risky when the bandwagon gets to 4 or 5.-
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This is not a pro-town strategy. I understand what you're trying to do, and it is not a bad idea, but it works a lot better if you find someone acting scummy and then forcexyzzy wrote: We get people to claim, and once we find discrepancies, we lynch the offending parties.themto claim. Then you actually have a decent chance at finding a dishonest claim.
With your strategy of just picking people at random and making them claim, you are gonna go through 3 - 4 pro-town players before you stumble across a scum and you are just going to cause chaos and the revealing of power roles.
Random bandwagons are fine for starters if we have nothing else to go on, but I don't think we're at that point yet.-
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I've had bad luck with lynching newbs lately. Seems like they tend to look scummy even when they're not. I agree schism looks very suspicious, but xyzzy still looks scummy to me too, so I'm fine with keeping my vote there for now.
The fact that xyz is preaching the "no mercy for newbs" line is making him look much worse to me, by the way. We HAVE to take the newb-factor into account or else we end up lynching all our newbie-but-town early in the game and then we have little chance to win when we are down 4 townies (2 lynches, 2 NK's) and no mafia deaths.-
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The "newb factor" is not that they are less likely to be scum, it's that they are more likely to give off scum tells even when they are townies. You know this. Stop playing dumb.xyzzy wrote: No. New players have exactly the same odds of being scum as anyone else. We should be giving everyone the same scrutiny. There is no "newb factor"; new players are just as likely as anyone to be scum.-
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Schis - let me help you out here. I think you are just newb town because I've seen these spectacular flameouts in several games lately. Now, there's no reason for you to take this so personally because you have to remember - at least some of the people attacking you are probably in the mafia. So of COURSE they are going to use things like bad logic and insults to attack you, because that is how they will WIN. So rather than getting all upset at the "horrible town play" that is going on here, figure out who is attacking you with bad logic and who is most likely scum. Then point out to everyone else HOW their attack is bad logic and give us your theory of their motivations and why they are scum. That is how the game is played.
Besides bad logic, another thing to watch for is people jumping on the bandwagon and trying to blend in. Now please stop the hissyfit and try to play the game, dude.-
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For the record, I am most suspicious of: (in order)
xyzzy - for reasons already posted, plus some opportunistic behaviour lately
Kaleidoscope - very quick to attack with fishy reasoning
Panzerjager - buddying up to xyzzy, happy to bandwagon, and some behavior similar to Kscope
Korran - way too defensive and emotional-
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[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]I'm getting the feeling this 'wagon is more running towards an ignorant townie then towards a scumlynch. Even though I'd feel happy with schis dead (in general), I don't think it's the way to play. Ergo,Unvote
I think it's time to vote my secondary suspicion, who seemed to be all to happy to jump on the wagon just after I made my case.Vote: AlSleet.
[/quote]
Man, I hate when this happens. A player I am suspicious of suddenly posts something extremely reasonable and pro-town. I think I was wrong about Kaleidoscope.
Reading over the bandwagon again, AISleet as scum makes a lot of sense. He jumped on the bandwagon once it had a lot of momentum and he used the argument, "Even if he's town, he's hurting us and therefore he must die." I've seen this used frequently by scum because it allows them to immediately distance themselves from their own vote. Then when the innocent townie is lynched they can claim, "Well I admitted he was probably innocent, but he was hurting us."
I don't like that logic at all. We need to keep townies alive at all costs.
vote: AISleet-
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Why, because I don't believe schism is scum? I have been burned by his type too many times and I don't want it to happen again. Although he STILL is not helping and he STILL looks incredibly scummy. I have to fight every instinct not to vote for the guy, but I am trying to learn from my previous games here.Panzerjager wrote:Major FoS: OTM
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I've explained this several times. In my last two games, I got burned lynching players who were playing terribly and they turned up as town, and schism has fit this "mold" exactly so far. Emotional, bad arguments, suspicious of everybody, etc. To tell you the truth, I wouldn't mind if he was the lynch for today. I think he's earned it. It's entirely possible that he is newb scum rather than newb town. But in my last two games I led the bandwagon for these bad-playing newbs and it put us in a difficult spot when they both came up town after the Day 1 lynch. So I can't be a part of it again. I'm not trying to post a defense of schism, as he is pretty much indefensible, but I will stay on the sidelines if he is the lynch.AlSleet wrote:Why else would he go out of his way to defend someone who plays so ludicrously?[/b]
I would link to these games so you could see, but they are both still ongoing so I don't think that is kosher. Do a search, you should find them easily enough.-
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Korran wrote:whop cares what others think just vote him if you want to.
OK now I know Korran is new too but these are some seriously scummy posts that I can't overlook. You seem to be rushing the lynch to end the day. And then you play the newb card:Korran wrote:And I was being nice to you qman.I've made my vote and I'm waiting for the lynch.
I think Korran sees that schism is getting a free pass (from me at least) because of his newbish behavior and now he is trying to say, "Hey I'm newb too!" Very suspicious to me.Korran wrote:I have no clue what I'm doing.I'm 12
I don't know, maybe I'm jumping at shadows here, what does everyone else think?-
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xyz - so what's your conclusion/summary of AISleet? Your opinion is as valuable to me as your PBPA. (Because it gives us info about you as well)
Scum can slide by quite easily by doing PBPA's to look like they are doing lots of pro-town work. But we need opinions here to base things on once the facts start coming in.-
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OK here we go again... how do you know this? Whenever someone states an opinion with this much conviction early in the game my scumdar goes nuts. Schism, what's the deal?schismatized wrote:haha and panzer calls me an idiot lol... dude do i really have to say im sorry for you to start playing smart? because it looks like thats what you want. wait what grade is this?too bad yr town.-
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Worrying about what everyone else thinks about your vote is pretty scummy, AISleet. I like to seek other's opinions sometimes too, but not when I am convinced someone is scum.AlSleet wrote:Yes, I do think he is scum, but I personally like to see what everyone else has to say before placing a definitive vote.-
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I assume you are referring to post 91 - it was a valid observation at the time. Kscope had FOS'd Panzer for being "too random" and me for being "FOS happy". These are lousy reasons. (and not even true, in my case - I voted xyzzy early because I saw some scumminess and that's where my suspicion stayed for a while - still quite suspicious of him, actually but I think AISleet is the better lynch. They could easily both be scum.)Ectomancer wrote: OTM attacks K-Scope randomly, why?
Also, I thought his first attack of AISleet (for having the same suspicions as Kscope) was uncalled for, but with AISleet's later behavior, now I think maybe he was on the right track.
OK if that's the way you want to see it, fine. I agreed with Kscope's suspicion of AISleet. I was only the 2nd person to vote him I think, hardly a bandwagon. But think what you want.OTM buddies up to K-scope in order to jump on the newfound AlSleet wagon.-
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Fair enough, I just call 'em as I see 'em. I meant it more as "jokey" than "friendly". I guess I don't worry about looking suspicious much because only scum have real reason to worry about that, it seems to me.Ectomancer wrote: I bolded the part that stood out for me OTM. Joining the wagon wasnt an issue really, AlSleet certainly deserved some voting at that point. For me somehow, doing an analysis and stating that you think someone is town is alignment null, but when phrased as you did, it rubs me the wrong way. It felt too "friendly".
As I said, these are first impressions of a suspicious mind.
If I am suspected, then the bandwagon gives us another chance to get info and that is good.-
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I am not going to waste my time doing a PBPA of schis's drivel. It's already been done, and I don't think we're going to get any more juice out of squeezing that lemon. Panzer is a good idea to analyze though. I'll see what Kscope comes up with after his reread and then I'll do my own PBPA of Panzer.-
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Whoah, this post isEctomancer wrote:Hrmm, I neglected to
unvote Deathsaucelast post. The answer was sufficient enough for me to put DS on my backburner.
I think I've given AlSleet enough rope now. Anyone else notice how he went straight into lurker mode once I shifted the heat?
I believe this is L-2
vote AlSleetreallygiving me bad vibes. You suddenly switched gears here, Ecto. Please explain why you are more suspicious of AISleet than DeathSauce all of a sudden?! Just for lurking? This seems sooo suspicious to me to attack one player voraciously for two pages and then all of a sudden unvote and leap onto the most convenient bandwagon. Please explain your actions, or I am going to have to change my vote.
FOS: Ectomancer-
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I will accept that for now, but I am interested in seeing your further explanation. I had forgotten you had expressed any suspicion on AISleet, so it came out of nowhere from my perspective. Still don't like it much, so IGMEOY.
As far as Schis goes, I still think it is possible he is scum, but he is such a newb, it seems like lynching him would just give us a slightly-better-than-random chance at finding scum. That's my read on him, anyway.-
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Oh yes you are!! This is the scummiest post I've seen from you yet. You have no opinion on the arguments going around with Ecto/Deathsauce/Kscope/Panzer/me? You don't appear to be doing any scumhunting at all, you are only concerned with defending yourself. This is exactly how scum behave and I am sticking with you as my vote for lynch today.AlSleet wrote: You're forgetting that I'm also a n00b. Newer than schism even. I think there's a bit of a double standard here with me and schism and it really pisses me off. I noticed this trend with Off the Mark especially. I'm not trying to play the n00b card here-
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I'm still getting a bad vibe from Ecto's posts. I went back and did a reread and I have a theory --
Ecto replaces into the game as scum. He immediately sees that one of his scumbuddies, AISleet, is on the verge of getting lynched. So he casually mentions that he is also suspicious of AISleet but he wants to do more analysis before casting a vote.
Then DeathSauce comes along and attacks AISleet pretty aggressively. Ecto then attacks DeathSauce and places a vote on him. This could be Ecto trying to get a new bandwagon started here, and trying to swing the suspicion away from AISleet.
After a few pages of bickering, Ecto decides it isn't going to work and then he decides that his safest course of action is to join the AISleet bandwagon so that when AISleet comes up scum, Ecto won't look like he was defending him all the way to the end.
I realize this theory has several assumptions (it assumes DeathSauce is town, for one thing) and the evidence is circumstancial at best. But I think it fits Ecto's actions, which I find tough to explain otherwise.-
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Yup that's another assumption I'm making. I am voting for him after all, and I do believe he is scum. You seem all over the place on that, though. Is he scum or isn't he? What do you think?Ectomancer wrote:OTM, you're right, you make several assumptions. First is that AlSleet is scum (where did we prove that he was again?),
WIFOMand second is that if I were his scumbuddy, that I would bother trying to save someone who got his head in the noose before I even got here. Why not just take the bus that was just sitting there waiting?
Agreed, it's not a strong theory, but it does explain your actions. Your actions are tough to explain because you started off with a softball accusation of AISleet... then pounced on DeathSauce, then suddenly gave up on him and voted for AISleet. Tough to explain.Could I get you to explain exactly which actions you find "tough to explain". That final sentence just capped off a fairly suspect post. You start with the "bad vibe" comment, then go into, not a case, but a theory you built, based upon several weak assumptions, and then end it all with the "tough to explain" comment concerning some ill-defined "actions".
Huh? I've been on AISleet from way back when the wagon started and I've only become more and more convinced that he's scum. This is totally false.By the way OTM, I have a question for you as well. Your latest post seemed to seriously imply that you believe AlSleet to be scum pretty strongly. So then, where were you exactly on that wagon? Why did it take my vote on AlSleet to bring it back to your attention?
Am I only allowed to think about one player at a time? I was just trying to figure you out, and I figured that this makes sense if you're both scum.You seemed to have forgotten about it until that point. Why the shift to me then if AlSleet seems so guilty?-
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I agree, DeathSauce was quite aggressive, and I made note of it. But your "pouncing" on him was also aggressive. I thought it was good that he was questioned but your reaction made you seem scummy too.Ectomancer wrote:2 things OTM: 1, you characterize my attack on DeathSauce as "pouncing", yet you do not address the issue at hand itself. DeathSauce deserved to be grilled over his defense and subsequent answers. Or do you deny this?
I don't understand this at all. There was nothing new to discuss in regard to AISleet, as far as I can remember. I wasn't posting much at the time, I was simply very interested in how you and DeathSauce were responding to each other. Should I be constantly posting "Let's lynch AISleet NOW!!!" because that is dumb.2nd - during my exchange with DeathSauce, your push on AlSleet was indeed, non-existant. Once I voted for him, you questioned me, I explained, so you then launched another attack on AlSleet. Then, as I said before, the AlSleet wagon lagged. Theopor slipped off of it. And then you shifted to me. That's how I see it personally.
Are you serious? Post 377 too long for you?Tell me your airtight theory again. I'd like to see it in cliff's notes.-
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No need for personal insults. AISleet seemed scummy to me for:
1) Jumping on the schis bandwagon with very little comment
2) Using the argument, "Even if he's a townie, he's hurting the town."
3) Attempting to suddenly shift focus to the lurkers in an effort to appear pro-town once a little suspicion was on him
4) Playing the newb card and saying (paraphrased) "You guys think schis is innocent but I am newb too. No fair!"
5) Failure to scumhunt other than saying he thinks schism and I are scum together, which I find a bit silly.
6) Lurking when the focus is off him-
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I was just doing a reread of the last few pages and I came across this. Have your feelings changed at all, Panzer?Panzerjager wrote: I feel really good about Ecto though. I also feel relatively good about DS. Less so on K-Scope.
I was just a little surprised by it because I would completely reverse your order of suspicion, from my perspective.
Makes me more suspicious of you, Panzer... but it seems I am suspicious of everybody. Seriously, almost everyone is giving me scum vibes. Every time I reread, I still get scum feelings from xyzzy. It's like he's lurking most of the time but jumping in just enough to post little criticisms of people's comments, without doing any scumhunting of his own.
After AISleet, xyzzy is 2nd on my FOS list. And Ecto is up there too, probably in the #3 position.-
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Heymod, can we get a votecount? And AISleet and schism, it'd be nice if you guys would defend yourselves. By hanging around and saying nothing, hoping the other guy ends up with more votes, you both look kinda scummy.
Whoever is in the lead, (AISleet, I think) you should probably claim with a few days to spare so we have time to evaluate. If it's a solid claim, then I will definitely change my vote, since we really don't have any hard evidence here.-
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^^^ something about your tone cries out SCUM to me almost every time you post, Ecto. You seem to be very confident that you know exactly what's what, and that makes me uneasy. I am now more suspicious of you than I am of AISleet, due to this post (415) and post 398, where you talked down to Panzer in the exact same manner. It might be stupid to try to start up a new bandwagon now, but I feel I have to vote for who I find scummiest.
unvote:
vote: Ectomancer-
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Suspecting me isn't making you look any better to me, Ecto.
As I said earlier, I'm just trying to do the right thing with my vote. I knew my change at this late stage would look a little suspicious but I can't ignore Ecto's scumminess any longer.
You seem to be trying very hard to read into my posts with a scummy undertone, but those are simply my feelings. You can make anyone seem suspicious if you assume they are scumbeforeyou read their posts.-
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Nope, I had plenty of reasons for thinking you were scummy already, which we debated about 3 pages ago. Nice strawman though. Your "tone" which was really "acts like he knows too much" was just the final straw.Ectomancer wrote: You are beginning to beat an EctoScum drum and your best argument is that you dont like my tone. Now THAT would qualify as an OMGUS.-
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Welcome Gatorguy! I'm very interested in what a fresh pair of eyes thinks of this game so far.
This deadline hasn't helped us generate too much discussion. Maybe some new blood will stir things up a bit. We need more discussion to analyze before day's end, everybody. Qman and bethelmark, it would be nice to hear from you guys again, as I thought the little analysis you have provided has been pretty solid.-
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