Mini 460 - Werewolves! Game over.

[DeathSauce]

By the way OTM, you are also a hypocrite.
In Post 786 you ask:

Can someone outline the case against Panzer?

Then, when Numenorean does exactly what you requested, you attack him for it and say:

I find it veeeeery interesting that Numenorean is the first to step forward with a PBPA on Panzer, with the conclusion that he is indeed scum.

All he did was outline the case as you asked and then you VOTE for him!

I am beginning to believe I may have been mistaken about K-Scope, your continued and insistent defense of PanzerJager is fascinating.

[Off the Mark]

Geez Louise is everyone scum in this game? DS there is no conflict between my two quotes above, none at all. Read it again until you understand that.

"Continued and insistent defense"? Misrepresent much? I think Num is scummy for hopping on a bandwagon of a player he called "pro-town" just a short time ago - that makes me a defender of Panzer? Please.

[DeathSauce]

There is no conflict between asking for someone to outline a case and then attacking the person that does it? I think we have different definitions of "conflict".

[Off the Mark]

I asked

someone

to outline a case against Panzer. My surprise was that the player who came forward to do so was

Numenorean

who had recently stated he believed Panzer was pro-town.

Now, if the PBPA was truly just an analysis, then there would have been no problem with it. But I got the clear impression from reading it that Num believed Panzer was scum. Every one of his analysis comments basically says "Panzer-scum is trying do this now." I don't know how you can read that as a neutral analysis.

Then when Num comes in and says "Oh no, I came to the conclusion that Panzer is

not

scum." It was a truly WTF moment for me.

[DeathSauce]

Okay, that makes more sense. I agree that it is odd to read that PBPA and then see the conclusion that Panzer isn't scum.

[Numenorean7]

It was the case against Panzer. That's what he asked for, isn't it? When beginning the analysis, I felt he was scummy, but I had to keep skipping over pro-town posts because they did not add to my case. So I do believe he has done some scummy stuff, but overall he has been rather pro-town.

You are incorrect in a couple places.

1) "...sudden change of heart on Panzer." If you'll read my posts regarding Panzer, you'll see that I have been uncomfortable with his pushing of the DS lynch and the way he has been doing it. When I replaced in I was getting a pro-town read, but recent events had caused me to re-think that. I summarized the case against him, as per his request. But it seemed strange to summarize the case and then say I don't buy it. I wanted to hear what he said first.

2)"hopping on a bandwagon" Neither did I hop on the bandwagon. I am not voting Panzer am I?

So that's my explanation. The PBPA is the case against Panzer, provided at his request. It is not a neutral analysis. I did my best to give him a clear case to answer. But I do not believe he is scum.

(That is not to say I'm going back to my pro-town read of earlier. I'd say Panzer goes somewhere in the middle of my list)

[Off the Mark]

OK so you're posting a case

against

Panzer although you personally do not believe the case demonstrates he is scum. I gotta say I have never seen that done before.

I am not voting Panzer am I?

No, but you said you were ready to vote for him, but you wanted a vote count first. So you were practically on the bandwagon, with a side of possibly-fake towniness thrown in for good measure.

unvote:

while I think this over. I am just confused at this point.

[Off the Mark]

OK, thought it over. Let's look at Numenorean's opinions: (paraphrased)

"Panzer is pro-town"

"I am ready to vote for Panzer"

"Here's an analysis demonstrating all the ways Panzer is scum"

"After doing that analysis, I now believe Panzer is not scum."

You've got to be lying to us. Those just don't jive, my friend. Maybe Panzer is your scumbuddy and that's why your opinion is all over the place. You can't decide whether to distance yourself or bus him.

vote: Numenorean

[Off the Mark]

EBWOTP:

You can't decide whether to distance yourself or bus him.

That was supposed to say "to distance yourself by bussing him, or defend him."

[Ectomancer]

I thought you were wrong OTM, until I went back and re-read. I didnt think he ever hinted at a Panzerscum, until I read this.

I agree with DS here. I think Blight has been very scummy, but everyone has been scared off by KScope's hinting. Panzer might be a good alternative lynch.

I'm going to wait for the votecount, at least, because I don't know how many votes Panzer has, and I'm too lazy to figure it out.

That seems to make for a bit of wishy-washiness going on with Numenorean. I thought him siding with me was his ability to get a good read on me, but it could also be Numenorean buddying up with me.

The latest interchange going on could be a bussing by DeathSauce of Panzer on his way out. DeathSauce turns up scum, Panzer looks good. Numenorean would then be tagging along on the bus, so that he and Panzer are on opposite ends there, but then he changed his mind about the tactic and switched gears, resulting in this wishy-washy behavior? Maybe because he realized that when DeathSauce turns up scum, being on DeathSauce's side of the argument isnt such a great place to be?

I dont know, either way, I know that there are way too many ties to DeathSauce and there are way too many questions about his alignment to make any other lynch a better one today. Im very interested in knowing whether he is town or scum, because there will be a lot of strings to follow, that's for sure. I held off because I was wanting to see replacements and what they thought.

vote DeathSauce

Once we know his alignment, we can look at the entire ball of wax. I started to list all of the pairings that involved DeathSauce, including mine, when it became apparent that there are few players (active) who

wasnt

involved with DeathSauce one way or another.

[DeathSauce]

Wait a minute, I'm on my way out? That's news to me. I will not turn up scum, I am not bussing anyone, and I fail to see how I am tied to anyone.

You honestly feel my actions have been scummier than PanzerJager's? Explain how.

[Ectomancer]

DeathSauce, you are tied to nearly everyone in some fashion or other. If there is a lynchpin (forgive the pun) to this town, it is you.
As for whether you are scummier, there are scum tells about you, there are town tells about you. As for asking whether you are scummier than Panzer is a matter of semantics. You were at L-2 (I believe) while Panzer hasn't come close to that.

[d3sisted]

First off, thanks for the welcome, DeathSauce. And don’t worry; I’ll make sure I help you out more than your last scumbuddies did. [/sarcasm][/joke]

I think general consensus in the town at this point is that AISleet is either SK/vig and NOT mafia. I am convinced anyway. Mafia is still possible, but AISleet's reaction ("Hey! I sent in my night choice!") makes me believe he has a night kill.

If he really had qualms with the moderating, he would’ve suspected the Mod made an honest mistake and PMed instead. The only reason he would post his reaction in the thread is to further cajole the rest of us. So I’m calling bullshit on his Vig/SK claim. We’re better off assuming he is either VT or werewolf, and merely tried to save his own ass from a lynch. Judging from his determination to live, I’m going to call scum, but I'm not entirely ready to vote him yet.

More on Alsleet: he was about to get lynched, but was forgiven due to his timely roleclaim. He got his chance, he wasn’t able to live up to his part of the bargain, why are we letting him off the hook by offering him another chance?

Right now, the scum-to-townie ratio is 3:7, which means it’s twice as likely he’ll hit a townie instead of a werewolf. Hence, it’s only intuitive for the scum to want the SK/Vig to live. But as much as I would like to test Alsleet’s claim, his case isn't of particular concern for me right now, so

FoS: Alsleet.

Panzer, however, is another story.


To begin with, I have no doubt at least one scum was on Schismatized’s wagon, and I believe it is Panzerjager.

Way back in 189, he votes schism, and has refused to let up ever since. All of a sudden, in 455, he drops the schism case to attack a possible SK. But wait: it gets scummier, because in 482, he switches back to schism for the hammer. Here’s my take:

At only 4 votes, Panzer realized he would not be able to persuade enough people to reach L-1, let alone get someone convinced enough to hammer. So he unvotes, hoping he can start a new cause (i.e. spark a Alsleet bandwagon) OR wait for the right moment to pounce back onto schism’s wagon. Sure enough, votes pile up on schism, so he abandons the Alsleet wagon, drops some bullshit about SKs claiming Vig, and hops back onto Schism for the hammer.

Some of us have raised the question, why would he hammer with an imminent deadline? Here’s my theory: In the event that Alsleet’s claim was truthful, the town would proceed to reach a consensus on who he should NK. By hammering, Panzer prevents this exchange from occurring, minimizing the risk to the mafia.

Why hasn't Deathsauce been lynched yet? I'm still wait for an answer. Seriously.

Jesus loving christ, how many times have you said that already? It was scummy the first fucking time around, it’s going to be scummy the second and third.

Alright. I really don't have it into me to defend myself. I'm having problems in my personal problems, and have been for the couple of weeks. I feel deathsauce is scum because his arguements have been baseless and is riding the good things he said far too hard. I feel Deathsauce is the ONLY good candidate for lynch right now. Anyway, I'm Vanilla Town. Take that however you want and lynch who you please. I'm out for a a day or two at least.

Oh, woe be me!

Vote: Panzerjager

[PJ.]

You made your own point null. Your most condemning point is baseless.

Point: "He hammered because he didn't want discussion of the nightkill"

Counterpoint: How do you figure this when my hammer was less then 7 hours from deadline? On top of the very small time limit, the conversation wasn't even started yet. Everyone was content to vote schism. I jumped on because i have always believed those who claim vig are SK until I see a role PM. See any of my games. Anyway, with the pace of the game do you feel the time restraint was enough to really have hurt the mafia. If anything werewolves could have controlled the debate with that little time left or simple changed the subject, seeing they only had to stall for a few hours

Point: "Woe is me"
Counterpoint: I apoligize my life is as cozy as yours.

Point: My one liners against deathsauce.

Counterpoint: Death is the best lynch and with limiting time, i felt the one liners got my point across. I really don't care about you perceptions of them simply because I know my alignment. I know I'm here to win it for the town.

[d3sisted]

Unofficial vote count

for reference purposes.

4: Deathsauce (Ectomancer, Panzerjager, HH, Kscope)
3: Panzerjager (d3sisted, Alsleet, Deathsauce)
1: Ectomancer (Blight)
1: blight (Numenorean7)
1: numenorean7 (OTM)
Not voting:

6 to lynch, 3 at deadline

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Well, no PbPa about OTM, just a read for myself. I started to read the first 20 posts of him and decided a pbpa is unnecessarry, as all these posts gave me protown vibes. In general, I think he's taking the game really serious, and keeps his eyes on bassicly everyone. His suspicions are quite the same as mine, which is why I'm getting good feelings when I'm reading his posts. All in all, I'd say he's not scum.

I will still stick with my vote for DS, FYI. I'll go and read Numenorean7 when I get some time, because I'm not really liking what I read when I see his posts.

[Blight]

I feel comfortable with either an Ecto lynch or a Numenorean lynch.

Unvote, Vote: Numenorean

[DeathSauce]

Interesting, since the wagon on me has stalled we are starting to see the first hints that Blight and K-scope are going to gun for Numenorean next.

Blight, you remind me of that little dog jumping around in the old cartoons "Heya K-Scope, who are we going to get the town to lynch next, huh, huh, huh?!"

MOD

, Could you prod HH, he hasn't posted in the thread since oyu said he was replacing.

[Ectomancer]

I feel comfortable with either an Ecto lynch or a Numenorean lynch.

Unvote, Vote: Numenorean

If you paid any attention, you would know Numenorean isn't the lynch. Quit being so damn scummy. The only reason you are being left alone is due to the as yet unverified word of K-Scope. I still hope K-Scope has more evidence on you than a "feeling".

[d3sisted]

I feel comfortable with either an Ecto lynch or a Numenorean lynch.

Unvote, Vote: Numenorean

If you paid any attention, you would know Numenorean isn't the lynch. Quit being so damn scummy. The only reason you are being left alone is due to the as yet unverified word of K-Scope. I still hope K-Scope has more evidence on you than a "feeling".

Wow, that was harsh to a degree beyond authenticity. I'm only feeling bussing from this post.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

I agree with whats being said. Blight, do your job as townie.

[Off the Mark]

Wow, that was harsh to a degree beyond authenticity. I'm only feeling bussing from this post.

Agreed, Ecto's post is hilariously ironic. He is telling Blight to stop looking scummy, but his harsh tone makes him look scummy in many of his posts. I have adjusted my barometer in regards to Ecto because he gives me scum vibes in almost every post, to the point where I think if he was scum, it would be too obvious.

However, d3sisted, I'm not sure I understand who you think he is bussing? You think Ecto is bussing DeathSauce? Now that I don't understand at all... if DS and Ecto are on the same scum team, they have pulled off a marvelous performance throughout this game, and I just can't buy that at this point.

[Off the Mark]

If you paid any attention, you would know Numenorean isn't the lynch.

Ecto can you explain this? I must not be paying attention either, cuz I don't get it. Numenorean seems like the best lynch to me at this point, as I believe he is not being honest with us about his suspicions. He's waffled all over the place.

Ecto and Num are starting to make sense to me as a scum team. They certainly like to defend each other. Maybe Ecto looks scummy because he is scummy. But I don't think he's the best lynch today, because I agree with most of his analysis.

[DeathSauce]

You think Ecto is bussing DeathSauce?

Where did you get that from? My name is not mentioned in that post at all! Honestly, OTM, I am beginning to think you are delighting in trying to drive me insane with your unwillingness to be suspicious of anyone but me.

[Off the Mark]

That's who Ecto is voting for, isn't it?