433: Dry, bland, generic mafia: Game Over

[Off the Mark]

Haha, hi everybody. I read through this game already, knowing I was going to be replacing into it. I decided I was most suspicious of thorgot and kilmenator. Then I got the replacement PM and guess what - I'm thorgot!! And I'm innocent! So it looks like I'm in a pickle, eh?

Basically, it seems like the main reasons thorgot has garnered suspicion is for lurking and failing to take a strong position. Well, give me a chance to rectify that before you string me up please.

For most of my read-thru the game, I really didn't like The Fonz's accusations and especially when he was pushing CES to role-claim. I think that situation is better left alone, for the good of the town. But the more I read, I just really doubted a scum would come out swinging like Fonz has done on day 1 and so clearly pushing to seek out and lynch scum. We are getting into WIFOM territory here, I know, but if Fonz is scum, he is doing an excellent impression of an aggressive townie.

The player who is consistently showing up on my scumdar is kilmenator. She has not posted a lot of content and when she does, her suspicions tend to run counter to my own, so that is where I am most comfortable placing my vote.

vote: kilmenator

[Off the Mark]

I don't like that post by Nanook one bit:

FOS: Nanook

As I explained a little bit earlier, anyone pushing for a role claim from CES seems fishy to me at this point. Also, Eletriar (who Nanook replaced) seemed to be scummily flying under the radar earlier in the game.

I do agree with him somewhat about Gorckat, though... a couple of his posts seemed "off" to me too, while reading through, but overall I felt his suspicions made sense, if you can ignore the jokes. So I came away thinking, "goofy but pro-town"

[Off the Mark]

EBWOP

Sorry, but by "that post by Nanook", I meant post 302. Although 304 is pretty odd too.

[Off the Mark]

Man, IH is now looking scummy to me after that argument. Perhaps I am just paranoid. Dodgy was clearly certifiably nuts, so I don't know how much analysis of his posts is helpful. From my read-through, I got the feeling he was just plain pissed off about the suspicion he was getting from Fonz and Dasquain. Now, if he was mafia, why he would he get pissed off enough to quit the game over being "found out"? It doesn't make sense to get pissed off over your opponent's good play unless you are 5 years old. The scenario of Dodgy being pro-town and getting pissed about Fonz's "scumtrap" seems more logical to me. I could be totally wrong, like I said it is tough to analyze the postings of a crazy man. If he is scum, then he is INCREDIBLY immature and I guess I just like to give people a little more credit than that - even people who are nuts.

It also doesn't help, from my perspective, that IH is defending other people who have tripped my scumdar, Nanook and Kilem.

FOS: IH

[Off the Mark]

2.WIFOM, this is null imo, especially with some of the arguments Dodgy was throwing around.

WIFOM applies to scum posting within the game who are trying to be deceitful. You can't use it in regard to meta-game actions, like quitting and throwing a hissyfit. Sure it's possible Dodgy was still "playing" the game throughout his whole tantrum, but I don't find that likely.

3.They were logical points, and not a "scumtrap", clearly you did not read those posts.

WOW RUDE

I read through the entire thread, bub. All the logical points were building off the suspicion generated by the scumtrap. There was a whole avalanche of arguing there, but the scumtrap was the snowball that started it.

If we're talking blindly following experienced players, try Sweenytodd on for size. I unvoted upon his replacement, but combine InHim's 'I think this day has run its course' when the mod had just told us there's another replacement coming who won't be able to contribute immediately, and saying he would be happy, albeit with warning, to hammer someone on whom he hasn't even attempted to state a case, and he looks scummy as anything.

QFT.

FOS: inhimshallibe

- but not enough to change my vote. I have read other games with kilm in them, and her behavior here is quite different.

[Off the Mark]

Crap, shoulda previewed. That sub-quoted section beginning with "WIFOM applies" is my response to IH's first quote. Bleh, sorry.

[Off the Mark]

Post 39:

Nowhere in particular. But Dodgy's complete overreaction was exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for when placing my third vote. I can't speak for Dasquian, as I probably wouldn't have placed that vote.

Plus, Dasquian's quickly following-on with the fourth vote allows us to have the mini equivalent of the 'second vote debate' in newbies.

Unvote

Vote: Dodgy

That's a scumtrap.

[Off the Mark]

Now you're just talking semantics. To me, if I take an action while looking for a specific reaction from scum, that's a scumtrap.

[Off the Mark]

This whole discussion is a useless tangent. I was just pissed that you accused me of not reading the posts.

The reason is could be an alignment indicator, is because Dodgy got pissed. And it makes more sense, to me, to get pissed when you are a townie stumbling into another townie's scumtrap (perhaps a poorly planned one) and then as a result Fonz says "Haha look who I caught!" But it is also a possibility that Dodgy is simply a sore loser and he got pissed for being legitimately found out as scum. That seems incredibly immature, like I said.

[Off the Mark]

I thought kilm's post was good

unvote:

vote: inhimshallibe

[Off the Mark]

The Dodgy/CES wagon would make more sense to me after he lived through night 1. THEN it makes sense to force a claim out of CES.

[Off the Mark]

The goal is not to make the game less confusing, the goal is to win. What is more straightforward is not always what is right.

[Off the Mark]

So I guess all power roles should just claim then? Give me a break.

[Off the Mark]

I have to break down a HUGE post just to say I agree with it now? Actually, I didn't agree with every single point of kilmenator's. But I thought her analysis was logical and very pro-town. The main problem I had with kilm was offering little content (compared to other games I've read). Her making a huge post of analysis, which I think is sensible analysis, is enough to make her less suspicious to me.

Now tell me if this makes sense -- the kilm bandwagon had pretty much died out before I replaced into the game and voted her. I got that bandwagon going again. Then kilm posted and reduced my suspicion of her enough so that I was now more suspicious of inhimshallIbe. So I switched my vote. Then inhimshallIbe comes along and accuses me and kilmenator of being scumbuddies? I'm sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever.

Yeah, I'm feeling very comfortable with my

inhim

vote.

[Off the Mark]

nobody reads anything in detail.

Ok, so the only reason you should with hold information (such as suspicions, opinions, thoughts etc) is if it is

related to your role.

Anything else is just anti town play. Not necessarily scummy, but it is detrimental to the town.

Just what do you think it is we're talking about here? A

role

. End of discussion.

[Off the Mark]

@inhim

No response to post 381? I'm not surprised.

[Off the Mark]

Of course, I have no proof that I'm just voting in retaliation to my accusers other than my suspicions for them now.

OtM's going a little ad hominem, now. Scumerrific!

Is that part you quoted supposed to be your response to post 381? I was hoping you would explain why, according your theory, I started up a bandwagon on my scumbuddy as my first action upon replacing into this game. Your theory does not match the facts here. On my read-through, kilmenator and thorgot (and eletriar) were the most suspicious to me. I got the PM telling me that thorgot was innocent, of course, so I voted for kilmenator. You're asking people to believe that I immediately dropped into a game that had plenty of confusion going on, and decided to bus one of my mafia buddies? Sorry, I'm not that sneaky/weird.

[Off the Mark]

OtM's going a little ad hominem, now. Scumerrific!

There's nothing ad hominem about it. I am not surprised that scum would just ignore an argument that pointed out a huge logic flaw in their theory.

[Off the Mark]

inHim - you are at lynch -1, why aren't you claiming?

[Off the Mark]

@Pie

Given that inHim is at lynch-1 I am having a hard time understanding your post. You don't want him to claim because Dodgy already claimed? How is that relevant?

And you think his refusal to claim is scummy, (I agree) but you still don't want him to claim? You seem to just want him to get hammered without claiming - how is that helpful?

[Off the Mark]

A good claim with no counters would be enough to make me change my vote though. Trying to figure out what's going on with your refusal to claim is just WIFOM.

[Off the Mark]

Joke reply - Didn't you see that movie? You're sure to get countered with that claim. Heck, "I AM SPARTACUS!"

Seriously reply - You look scummier than ever. First you act like you're trying to help the town by not claiming, and I was starting to believe you. Now you make a mockery of the process which is definitely anti-town behavior.

[Off the Mark]

I don't want us to make a rash decision, so

unvote:

[Off the Mark]

That's what I'm waiting for too. I'm not casting any votes until we hear from CES. I'm particularly interested to see if he still finds me the scummiest.

[Off the Mark]

vote: CES

Apparently it's the only way to make him talk. And if his claim was true, he's a dead man anyway so this won't do too much harm even if it is a misguided vote.

[Off the Mark]

MBL - so you are claiming "town but not doc"? I find this very hard to believe.

[Off the Mark]

You want to hear my thoughts? Here they are:

1) Dodgy wouldn't have claimed as scum. It's extremely unlikely that he was this mad at a scumpartner for harrassing him, correct?

Agree so far

So if he was scum with town harrassing him he'd want to screw over town with his claim. But by claiming doc he would have put himself and his scumteam in an awkward position and wouldn't hurt the town at all via his action.

Huh?? No, he would totally dick over the town if he claimed doc and then quit. How would his scumteam be in an awkward position? Scum false claim all the time, how would this be more awkward? If anything, it would be less awkward because the town would be more likely to accept the claim at face value. (as I did, until now)

Fonz, if you're town you should have recognized this. So yeah, Dodgy was town pissed off at someone whose alignment he did not know, and he claimed something to shut them the hell up because he was pissed at them.

Sorry, this makes no sense. If Dodgy was town, and all he wanted to do was hurt the town, he should have claimed scum when he quit. Now there's a head scratcher, eh? I don't see the sense in his claiming doctor to hurt the town. This is actually helpful to the town when another townie claims doctor because it wastes a mafia nightkill on the wrong guy as the scum try to hunt the doc.

I'm not buying your story at all so I'll keep my vote on you.

[Off the Mark]

I'm quite uncomfortable with OTM's last comment...

Which part is making you uncomfortable? I know I tend to speculate quickly, so maybe I can explain it better.

[Off the Mark]

Dude, I unvoted you because I decided your "I am not claiming because it would be bad for the town" strategy convinced me you probably were town after all, (mainly because I've never seen scum try that) so I didn't want you at lynch -1. And now you vote for me because of that action? This feels like some kind of weird reverse-OMGUS.

Now I am finding myself suspicious of you again, mainly because of language like this:

I'm open to him not being partnered with kilm, of course (although that would be a nice twofer).

You just sound so damn smug about it. I just made an impulsive decision. We can let MBL go and see if he survives the night and maybe deal with him tomorrow.

unvote:
vote: inHimshallIbe

[Off the Mark]

It may be weak reasoning, but it was just enough for me not to want to lynch him. Likewise, his smug attitude makes me feel like my first decision was wrong. (basically, I'm agreeing with you that my first decision was weak reasoning)

I'm just trying to go by my gut here to make sure we get the best D1 lynch.

[Off the Mark]

Bah, I feel like I'm getting nitpicked here. I didn't post a huge response to kilm detailing my agreements/disagreements because I post from work and don't have time to write a huge post most of the time. I will respond to all this later when I can dedicate some time, but for now let me just make a few quick points:

Now, to when OTM himself enters. He then makes a point of going away from how his predecessor acted, as if he was stating his suspicions not because he thought they were valid or would help to catch scum, but in order to distance from his predecessor and make himself look innocent.

Well sure, it looks that way if you first assume I'm scum. But as townie, of course I'm going to distance myself from my predecessor when I agree that he looked scummy before. Like I said, I was surprised to get a "townie" PM as thorgot. I stated my suspicions because that's what you do in this game. Should I have started off by defending thorgot's actions? I'm not him, so that's hard to do.

Then OTM comes out with an absurdly WIFOM argument about how he couldn't possibly have come into the game and immediately began bussing his scumbuddy, even though a) surely when there isn't a wagon on your buddy is a perfect time to bus them?

There

was

a wagon on kilm though, but it had stalled out. My vote seemed to get it moving again. I was the 3rd or 4th vote on her, I think.

you didn't mention a suspicion of Eletriar in your first post, yet as soon as you decide you want to attack Nanook, you were suspicious of her all along.

I was slightly suspicious of Eletriar during my read-through but not as much as thorgot and kilmenator, so I didn't mention it at that time. Do I have to disclose ALL my thoughts in every single post?

This is not a good reason. If inHim felt your reason for unvoting him was poor, he has every right to point it out.

My "reverse-OMGUS" comment was not supposed to be a reason, it was just a joke. Like, he voted for me because I

un

voted him and I thought that was humorous. Just being silly.

Gorckat's posts over the last few pages are consistently giving me scum vibes. He is just waiting to leap on the right bandwagon, it seems, without stating any opinions that others have not already stated. He's posting regularly, but trying to play it very safe.

FOS: gorckat

[Off the Mark]

You seemed more concerned with 'Oh, gee whiz, don't lynch me' than with providing analysis.

Many people had thorgot at the top of their FOS list, including me, when I was reading as a third party before I got the PM. So I felt I needed to share my feelings of surprise when I took over the role so that the town could identify with that. But I agree, it doesn't really mean anything. Anyone can say, "I'm innocent!"

And I have provided quite a bit of analysis, actually, I just tend to it in a few short sentences rather than writing novels like some people.

[Off the Mark]

I really don't like this argument. No-one's ever forced to post.

I had to post to unvote her. Duh.

[Off the Mark]

Because I didn't want her to get lynched. (duh again?)

[Off the Mark]

Because I didn't want her to get lynched. (duh again?)

*Rams head into brick wall*

You'd posted several times since she'd gone to L-2. She hadn't gone to L-1. So she wasn't in any more imminent danger of lynch than she'd been for a long time. So to my eyes, there was no rush to unvote her, and had you

had

a good reason for it, there was no reason you couldn't have waited until you had time to expound on it properly.

So you are trying to tell me that if you no longer suspect someone who is fairly close to a lynch, you would

not

unvote them unless you had time to explain your reaction to a huge post point by point? That is ludicrous. And anti-town. If your suspicions aren't there any more, you unvote. Period.

In fact, this opinion is so ridiculous, it makes me think you are needling me just to make me look bad to the rest of the town to further your own agenda.

FOS: The Fonz

[Off the Mark]

Feel free to think that, but that is pretty dumb. I'll give a full response to kilm's post when I have a chance.

[Off the Mark]

And now for a blast from the past, my analysis of kilm's post:

Ok, so from what I can see, I am catching up from about page 9ish, it seems that most of of the posts from page 9-11 were mostly about CES and the retraction of the claim. I still stand by my opinion that CES should truly claim, because if he is outed, then it is his predecessors doing. But, since this discussion is not getting anywhere, I am willing to just let it go, but the scums are probably going to have a good time trying some WIFOM on us, if in fact CES is not killed.

I can understand where she is coming from here, but I still think we are better off to leave the CES claim retracted. Now that MBL has claimed town-but-not-doc things have gotten a little trickier. Tomorrow he needs to claim if he lives. Agree with kilm on the scum WIFOM possibilities. I don't want to discuss this too much as it may affect scum decisions.

The person I am most suspicious of right now is Pete D, followed closely by the CES. Here is why...

Pretty much as per my previous post. I think you stayed out of discussion for the most part and haven't commited to anything; your posts in regard to the

CES situation seem to be trying to put pressure on whilst keeping yourself distanced

.

If this is the case against me, you basically just called CES scum, because I am distancing from him... and you think I am scum... that doesnt make much sense at all...
Pete has consistently pushed for me even when I answered his questions, he has also not really outlined a clear case against me, (which granted no one really has to my knowledge, other than the fact that I agreed with the fonz that I thought CES should claim..

unovte:

(if voting) and

vote: pete d

I understand her suspicion of Pete D here, but I think it is possible that Pete was simply working under the

theory

that CES was scum and I think kilm overreacted a little bit here. Pete D is the top half of my suspicion list for sure, but not enough for an

FOS

.

CES- DOdgy was scummy, and then the claim was retracted, and now he is just flying under the radar for the most part, most of his posts have been pretty useless and have added nothing. Also, the LAL applies here for me, because retracting a claim, pretty much means the first player lied, therefore making that person a liar.

I disagree with her here about what it means to retract a claim. Retraction means "pretend it never happened" not "I am not the doc". So we don't know yet at this point if Dodgy lied. Now that MBL is claiming not-doc, we DO know that either Dodgy or MBL has lied.

However, despite my disagreement, I understand he position and find it to be a pro-town one, given that she has interpreted the retraction as a not-doc claim.

And to defend myself...

EBWOP: That should be NK'd, not lynched.

the switch was not necessarily a switch, scum are bound to play WIFOM with us or they are going to kill CES... either way, I wasnt following the Fonz, I was stating my opinions.

The player who is consistently showing up on my scumdar is kilmenator. She has not posted a lot of content and when she does, her suspicions tend to run counter to my own, so that is where I am most comfortable placing my vote.

vote: kilmenator

Like I said, I ahve been busy, so my content has been down, plus I am involved in way to many games at this point, but voting me because my suspicions are not what you think, doesnt make me scum, maybe I just look at things from a different perspecitve. And who is it that I have been suspicious of that you have not thought was suspicious?

Some of this was way back in the early part of the thread, which I'm not going to dig through now, but a big part of it was the "CES must claim" argument, which I thought was pretty scummy. Now that I see how you are interpreting his retraction, I understand your position and I no longer think you are scummy because of it.

I am also suspicious of gorkat who vote hops to much and for hopping on my bandwagon without really outlining a case, or having a case outlined. The only reason I point him out and not everyone else, is because he has consistently vote hopped IMO.

Agreed 100%. But I don't think gorckat and Fonz are both scum. My suspicion list right now looks something like this:

inHim
MBL
gorckat (if gorck is scum, I think Fonz and Dasq are probably ok)
Pete D
Fonz
Dasquian (if Fonz is scum, I think it very likely Dasq is too)
IH (not sure what to think of him, I need to see more)
Nanook (been getting pro-town vibes from him lately, so he is almost off the list)

I would echo IH and ask for a case to be outlined against me, it is hard to defend yourself when you dont know what to defend against.

Good point. Before this post, her lack of analysis (which seemed OOC to me) was the main factor in her looking scummy to me. Once she started analyzing in a pro-town manner, my reason for suspecting her was gone. Still watching her, of course, but I haven't seen anything anti-town since her analysis.

[Off the Mark]

Looks like no one's going to change their mind before the deadline.

[Off the Mark]

inHim, we are stuck until you claim. Waiting to claim until closer to the deadline is anti-town. We need time to evaluate an alternate target if your claim holds up - or is worth testing.

[Off the Mark]

Why not do that now? Lazy scum, that'd be why. Now you're just stretching whatever you can to seem helpful. You took Dasquian's argument, which I responded to, but messed up a little. Haven't you been evaluating everyone?

Of course I have, but for the town as a whole to reach a consensus, it takes time. That was a strawman if I've ever seen one. I'm more convinced than ever that you're scum. Enjoy your noose.

[Off the Mark]

MBL refused to claim when there was very little pressure on him. This is normal and pro-town. (still leaning scum on him though)

inHim's refusal to claim at

all

on Day 1 is quite different.

[Off the Mark]

Gunsmith? What does a gunsmith do? Dang we lost a bunch of power roles, this sucks.

I do not get MBL's and inHim's behavior at all. I just cannot see how that was pro-town for inHim to refuse to claim vanilla and MBL claimed not-doc, a lie. Yeesh.

Well, at least we have a fresh start at scumhunting.

FOS: gorckat

for now, but I have to review now that we have info.

[Off the Mark]

Oh, and I'm guessing a vig killed MBL? Not sure on the others, although I could see the mafia thinking Fonz was a cop.

3 killing parties, so we probably have a serial killer.

[Off the Mark]

I need a reread in light of the death scene, but I'm tending to suspect Nanook, pie and others who really pushed hard for getting MBL to claim - the mafia knew that he wasn't one of them and, as I said at the time, probably really wanted to know for sure if he was the doc or not before killing him. In fact, as the pressure to get him to claim later turned to a push to just get him lynched, I suspect they had guessed and were trying to get the town to save them a night kill.

This is a very simplistic view. I find that mafia try to set up little scenarios like this where things fit oh-so-neatly, when really the game is much more complex. Do you really think scum would be pushing MBL to claim? Because, in my opinion, scum try very hard not to stick out and do things that might be perceived as anti-town. I think those pushing MBL to claim are much more likely to be misguided townies. And this post by you, Dasquian, seems very much like a frame-up job to me.

vote: Dasquian

[Off the Mark]

I've never been clear on the whole "benefits of a massclaim" idea... this is only my 4th game. Can someone break it down for me?

Won't mafia simply all claim townie? How does that help us?

[Off the Mark]

OffTheMark - it's a roleclaim, not an alignment claim.

I think he means, won't scum just claim vanilla townie, and where does that leave us?

Yep, that's what I meant.

[Off the Mark]

Great, I deleted my PM, so if there was any flavor to it, my role claim is going to be lacking that. I think I remember what it said though.

[Off the Mark]

I would like to see Dasquian be one of the first to claim.

[Off the Mark]

Pie - I already voted for Dasquian, so the cat's out of the bag there. I said that because I don't want him to get the chance to imitate others' claims.

[Off the Mark]

I'm agreed with you setting the order, kilm. Still not sure this is going to help us, but I am trusting in the more experienced players here, I guess.

[Off the Mark]

Nope - are we certain anyone's town? Setting a scummy order could be huge evidence later on though, as results start to come out.

[Off the Mark]

You forgot Dasq.

I'll claim after Nanook has his say.

[Off the Mark]

I am vanilla town. When I posted earlier about my PM getting deleted, I totally forgot about the vanilla PM being posted in the initial mod post. This is why I was concerned that my claim would be indistinguishable from mafia, because I was concerned they would all claim vanilla town too.

[Off the Mark]

superstring is who we're waiting on now, I guess... he hasn't checked in since day 2 started

[Off the Mark]

unvote

while we talk this out a bit. Still quite suspicious of you, Dasq. Just because you didn't plan it in advance, doesn't mean you aren't trying to capitalize on MBL's death.

Of the vanilla claimers, I am also suspicious of Nanook and Pete D. Mainly because I was suspicious of them on Day1 and they were late to join the "let's all massclaim" discussion. Not a strong argument, I know, but there it is.

I believe kilm's claim. Since we had a gunsmith and a watcher, it seems we had some less common roles, and a one-shot vig fits in with that. If I were a one-shot vig, I would have never chosen to kill MBL on Day 1 though. Why didn't you wait until you had a better target later in the game, kilm? Why would you choose someone who had claimed doc? Did you believe MBL's claim of not-doc?

[Off the Mark]

So, my ideas Off the mark is #1- he wasnt really against claiming, but alluded to the fact that he didnt want to be figured in with scum because he thought scum would claim townie, which in my experience, usually they do not.

But... I was right... they did claim townie. I gotta say, I am very surprised Dasq did not claim cop. If he is scum, he missed a great opportunity there. So I am now less suspicious of him, because I doubt he would miss that.

[Off the Mark]

Unless he figured there was a real cop who is also lying about his claim. This is a possibility. Since our doc is dead, cop can't get protection tonight, so he would probably claim vanilla - and rightly so. Setup could easily be:

3 scum (lied in massclaim)
1 SK (lied in massclaim)
1 one-shot vig (kilm, told truth in massclaim)
1 cop (lied in massclaim)
1 doc DEAD
1 gunsmith DEAD
1 watcher DEAD
3 townies (1 DEAD, 2 told truth in massclaim)

IF this is the setup, (big if) we have a pretty good shot at a scum lynch if we simply lynch a vanilla claimer.

[Off the Mark]

One more thing, if that setup is correct, we are basically in LYLO. Mislynch + NK + SK kill = could be only 1 pro-town left after Night 2. So, um, yeah, you don't want to lynch me.

[Off the Mark]

Cop would have been stupid to lie. Cop has innocents and/or guiltys so I am inclined to think there is not a cop the fact that you even brought it up makes you look more scummy to me. Plus, I highly doubt there would be 3 scums and an SK.

A cop just has one result at this point, and there is a reasonable chance his investigation target was killed, given the night carnage.

How does this speculation make me look more scummy to you? I don't understand that at all. When Dasq was the last to claim and we didn't have a cop yet, I expected Dasq-scum to claim cop. Now I am just trying to figure out all the possibilities since he claimed vanilla.

I just finished a mini game with 3 scum, an SK, and a neutral survivor. Town had a cop and a doc. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if this game had 3 scum + SK, especially since it looks like we had quite a few pro-town power roles.

LYLO = lynch scum or lose

[Off the Mark]

Wouldn't a cop lying in mass-claim be making a huge mistake? I would've thought that the benefit of (maybe) staying alive another night are outweighed by the risk of getting lynched when they do claim. Particularly hot on the heels of the "is Dodgy actually the doc" debacle - how could we trust that a cop claim from this point onwards isn't a mafia trying to pull a fast one?

If a cop

has

lied in mass-claim, I think their best play from here on in is to try and play out as best they can without ever claiming, even if they have/get a guilty result. I don't see how a cop could claim now, even (or

especially

) with a guilty result, and not risk the entire thing going down the pan.

A cop that claims and then lists out his results and then gets lynched (and verified as cop) is not all bad, you know. That would actually help the town quite a bit.

btw, by talking about the cop so much, I feel like I am breadcrumbing, but I assure you it is not intentional.

[Off the Mark]

You're probably right about the gunsmith being our cop-equivalent, Dasq.

OK so who should we lynch? Seems like Nanook is on most of our FOS lists so far. Shall we start voting? Or more to discuss?

[Off the Mark]

My list:

Town: Me, kilm

Leaning town: Dasq, Pie

Neutral: Gorckat, Superstring

Leaning scum: Nanook, Pete D

[Off the Mark]

Pie - can you explain why you are suspicious of me? I will dig up those links for you... I've only completed 3 games. I was scum once, town once, and survivor once.

[Off the Mark]

Townie - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

Scum (my first game) - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

[Off the Mark]

Pete -

I was more suspicious of Nanook earlier on Day1, but towards the end of Day1, I was less suspicious due to the pro-town feel I got from his arguments surrounding MBL. Now that MBL has turned up town, those arguments aren't looking so good anymore, so my suspicion from the early part of the day (which was mostly on Eletriar's play) is more important to me. Plus he lurked through the massclaim discussion for the most part, which launched him right to the top of my suspicion list. You seem to be defending him here, though, and attacking me, so I would not be surprised if both of you are scum.

[Off the Mark]

Also, since our Day2 discussion, I am feeling much better about gorckat.

[Off the Mark]

OK, the players I feel good about seem to be in agreement that Nanook is suspicious, so I am ready to cast a vote.

vote: Nanook

[Off the Mark]

I really truly thought MBL/CES/Dodgy was scum, I didn't expect another doc to out themselves to prove this, but Pie had me thinking that he was the doc considering his "stubborness" to vote MBL/CES/Dodgy as well.

Now this is interesting. So, you claim you were thinking Pie could be a doc, therefore Dodgy/MBL was scum. If you were scum, it seems you would assume Dodgy was telling the truth about his claim and not look elsewhere for a doc, so this leads me to believe you are telling the truth.

Of course, you could be making the whole thing up, but that would be a pretty good ruse, if so. I think that is unlikely.

Curious to hear others' opinions on this.

[Off the Mark]

It's also possible he was thinking "Dodgy was nuts, so he could be town or even SK. If he is not the doc, who is?"

Scum do have a pretty big incentive to identify power roles, after all, so it makes sense he would be puzzling that out, as scum.

[Off the Mark]

I'm not really feeling the Nanook or Dasq cases. OTM and Gorckat are my frontrunners.

OTM and Gorckat - could you both link me to a game where you were scum and a game where you were town?

Hey Pie, why didn't you just do a search? That's all I did to pull up my own games from the past. Was it really necessary to make a public request for background check material?

Seems like something scum might do to make it look like they are really working hard at scumhunting <--- I know that is a WIFOM argument, but the fact remains, he could have just done a search, he didn't need to make a public request.

[Off the Mark]

hey Pie - post 653

I responded.

LOL @ post 666

[Off the Mark]

Any other thoughts on my post 663, besides Gorckat? I am thinking Pete D might be a better lynch, but I am unsure.

[Off the Mark]

It's not a proof, it just seems like an unlikely argument for scum to use, that's all I'm saying. But that doesn't mean it's impossible. Far from it.

[Off the Mark]

Alright here we go, PBPA of Superstring:

vote:southpaw
obviously trying to distract us.

oh, and
BEAT:bluehost

This is interesting - his first post is the first non-random vote. His suspicion seems a little silly to me, so this is slightly scummy IMO.

thanks everyone. my birthday's been great.

i would also like to point out that there are two votes on other people [ie: me] its nothing to be alarmed about. if it were a 7 player game, it would draw more attention, but in a 12 player game, it doesnt matter that much.

Points out that there are 2 votes on a couple players but that it's nothing to be concerned about. So why point it out? Trying to look helpful?

im not a huge fan of the wagon to 4
there are probably 3 scum, and if none have voted southpaw, would get a good quicklynch. i highly doubt that wagon will go anywhere, because giving up a scums position for the sake of an early lynch is flat out stupid

Here he is the first to talk about a quicklynch. He then again goes on to mention it is not a concern because they'd give themselves away. So again, why mention it? This is a major scumtell, from my experience. Players who try to get the town to worry about a quicklynch are often either scum or inexperienced.

i was still voting because as i said, i didnt think the wagon would go anywhere. and it hasnt. people have unvoted

if the use of FOS's gets too liberal, they lose effectiveness. a vote puts more pressure on them as well. if there are multiple FOS's on me i dont care as much as if they were votes. if there are multiple votes on me, i feel pressure to defend myself

i have to agree with fonz here. voting is better than FOS
addendum: a vote is not better than an FOS if the vote may end the game, or otherwise cause an early lynch

Not much to comment on here. Neutral post.

in this case, i'll say that i supported this particular wagon. it did no harm, got discussion rolling, and did some reaction fishing as well. overall, it was a good wagon

This is his first post that gives me a pro-town vibe.

on page 2 day 1, L-3 is not dangerous at all. especially if scum is already on the wagon, and even if no scum is on the wagon. they will not risk giving themselves up.

No comment - neutral (I'll abbreviate this as NCN from now on)

to start discussion so that we would be able to watch reactions, and actually have something to go on. if we never started a wagon, or voted at all for that matter, the game would stall.

you have no clue what hes played outside MS, our outside the internet for that matter. now, i dont think its a classic scumtell but it is something to look at later on down the road.

Defending the Fonz here, seems slightly protown, since he is arguing against Dodgy's somewhat nutty attacks.

im not defending him at all.
im calling you out on attacking him for provoking discussion. like i said in my last post, the game would stall otherwise.

also: the wiki had a list of scumtells at one point. he may have read it.

NCN

i have to agree. i dont think pointing out scumtells is a great idea right now keep those ideas to yourself, and maybe analyze them later.

Now THIS is interesting - he wants Fonz to keep scumtells to himself? VERY anti-town.

the only reason you think the 3 of us are scum is because we agree with each other and not you.
i dont like that one bit

Valid point, but seems more like a defense scum would use to me.

i also dont like you trying to attack fonz for lack of experience. even though you said that you werent trying to discredit him, it came off like you were.

NCN

at least he is not saying "i have nothing to add" that was a major problem with N316. there was one player who refused to agree with anyone, and just said that his ideas had been posted already. we cant read peoples minds [as much as we may try] while i agree that more content is better, their ideas may have been legitimatly posted already.

i, for one would rather have him say that than "my ideas were posted" and "not posting is my play style. eat it."

and, to end this post, i would like to hear from everyone else as well.
POST!

Here he's calling out lurkers, when he hasn't exactly been the most active player in the game himself. Not sure if this is scummy or not.

i agree 100% with this.

and most of the time, i dont buy too sscummy to be scum, but it would really depend on that players actions so far, and how they acted after the scummy actions

Here he's agreeing with kilm who has said "lynch scummy players, even if they seem too scummy to be scum". This could be seen as subtly going after Dodgy, which is interesting because of what comes later.

i have to agree wit this [especially "wow, what the heck"] and just because people are new to the site doesnt mean they cant read into it.

the way this game has gone, we have gotten a bit off track, i think.
arguing about menial things.

the most important thing right now is to hear from inactives.
then more discussio can ensue

@eletriar: youve said your ideas were posted. lots of ideas were posted. some very opposite, and extreme. which ideas do you agree with?

This post looks pretty much neutral. More calling out of lurkers.

i just have one last comment on dodgy's quit:
it was extremely immature, and i think he was being whiny, and condescending. i dont like the attitude of "i've been here longer, so i [and only i] know how to play it right."
so, i think the best thing to do with his role is to see how his replacement acts.

i think it's time to put the pressure on the inactives

vote: gorckat

Hmmm I guess this is neutral, as I know I have done it myself as town.

i agree that the wiki shouldn't be a player's bible, but rather a utility for reference.

but you shouldnt judge someone based on their time on the site. i dont believe that really says much about their skill. nor does mere experience. someone could have played in more games than anyone else, and still not be as good as the newest player.

and you should expect attacks. how else are we going to weed scum out?
expect them to declare that they are scum?

This is a reply to a deleted post of Dodgy's. Seems pretty pro-town.

this is the oddest game ive ever played in.

ok, i think what we have to do now is move past the dodgy incident. lets get back to the game. weed out scum.

my vote is already out there on gorkcat. lets pressure the inactives.

Seems pro-town on the surface. But didn't he want to go after scummy looking players (like Dodgy, I assume) before? This seems like either a change of heart, or a lie/half-truth is mixed in here somewhere. Nothing concrete though.

I don't understand superstring's post 123. (page 5) I'm not sure who said what, since he messed up some quote tags, and I am not sure what the purpose of the post was either, since it seems to go back to something that happened on the last page. Superstring, could you explain what this says and why you posted it?

thats ok, at least we know [somewhat] where you stand.
we still need gorkcat, though.
if i could put another vote on him, i would

OK now he really wants to pressure gorckat for lurking. This seems a little scummy to me. When a lurker doesn't respond after a while, that usually means he's not reading the thread. A scum won't see himself being prodded by a vote and then continue to lurk. But superstring seems to be interpreting gorckat's lurking that way, which I see as accusing with weak reasoning.

i realize that it doesn't mean much if he's not here, but if he has been reading, and not posting, then it does.

and yes, i am trying to get something going on gorkcat. im trying to get pressure on him. it was either him or thorgot. and i'll probably go for thorgot next.

all i'm trying to do with my votes right now is pressure. im not trying to get anyone lynched [yet]

Pete D calls out superstring for pushing gorckat too hard, this is string's response. This reads pretty neutral to me.

not necesarilly. hammering draws attention, but in the end it is a good thing

NCN

i agree with dasq that LAL is a good rule of thumb, but thats just it. its a rule of thumb it doesnt apply in every case. and [assuming dodgy/CES is lying] i dont know that it does here.

right now fonz is topping my scumlist.
it seems like he is being very opportunistic. someone replaces into a game where his predecessor made a claim in a hissy fit. he retracts the claim. fonz accuses him of lying, and pushes for LAL.

thorgot is next.
hes not giving many opinions.

id like to hear more from eletrair and kilm before i comment about them.
the same goes for CES

This post is setting off alarm bells for me. He was agreeing with Fonz throughout the whole Dodgy situation and even defending him. Now he says Fonz tops his scumlist because he goes after Dodgy's replacement... I don't know if this is a good enough reason to make him string's #1 suspect after he seemed to be in a position of trust before. He says thorgot is #2, who I now know to be town, but it's true, thorgot didn't share his own opinions much.

fonz, i really dont think you should be pushing on CES so hard right now.
we've driven the discussion about him into the ground.
dodgy was an ass.
we should not lynch CES just because of what dodgy has done. we need to see how he acts.
that being said, i will stick by my scumlist and
vote:fonz

I don't like this one bit. Fonz explained that he was operating under lynch all liars, and with the way he's interpreting CES's role retraction, this makes absolute sense. Superstring ignores Fonz's argument and votes for him.

I'm feeling a bit suspicious of superstring and fonzy. I know i said i bought Fonz as town before, but his recent behaviour has made me a bit more apprehensive of him. superstring seems overaggressive to me, its more of a gut feeling on my part, he seems a bit opportunistic to me. Eletrair and dom:inc both seem to be fence-sitting a bit (dom:inc hasn't commented for a while though).

i get the whole gut feeling thing, but do you have any reasoning why im suspicious?

i will be out of town tomorrow through sunday. i am caught up, and will catch up when i return.

This is a bit hard to figure out, since we have two players arguing and we don't know their alignments. It seems like Pete gave decent reasons for suspecting superstring (mentions opportunistic and overaggression) and superstring acts like all Pete said was "gut feeling".

However, this is the sort of vague arguments I expect scum to use when throwing around distancing type FOS's, so I think Pete D and superstring could easily be playing a little game here. Nothing solid, though, just a feeling.

EBWOP
the question i was trying to ask was:
how am i opportunistic?

Interesting that superstring re-read the interaction and clarified his question. Could be he was analyzing the back-and-forth between two scums and making sure it looked legit.

please note that this post is me thinking out loud

i don't think we should lynch CES today

lets look at possibilites
1. he actually is a doc. [oh shit, we just lost a doc]
2. he is a townie [meh, we lynched a townie]
3. he is mafia [woohoo.]

i half would like to hear him claim.
lets look at his possible claims, and outcomes of said claim.
1. doc/not lynched
2. vanilla/lynched

the only way for him to live is if he claims doc. what if he is actually vanilla? we lost a townie, and we will lose more in the night, putting us in an unpleasant situation.

if he claims vanilla i am inclined to believe him. solely because of dodgy's actions.
that said, fonz said that we should hold him accountable for dodgy's actions.
i have a slightly different view on this:
we should analyze the difference between their posts.
like if someone replaces someone scummy and then is himself more town-like, i would suspect him as scum more than i would as town.

i would rather lynch someone scummy than lynch someone based on LAL, especially in this case, where we don't know a lot about him.

we should let him claim, and then watch his posts.

This post gave me town vibes initially, but look at what it accomplishes: It puts superstring on the "don't lynch Dodgy/CES" side of the debate, which looks good when Dodgy/CES comes up town. It also encourages CES to claim at the same time. Perhaps superstring is not sure if Dodgy is actually the doc here, or just a crazy townie? I don't know, I'm not quite sure what to make of this one.

if he claims, the only way for him to live is if he claims doc.. because if he claims townie [even if he really is a townie] he'll be lynched on the basis of LAL.

i realize that we can afford a mislynch right now, but i would much rather lynch scum.

i dont mind a claim from CES, but lets wait for a bit. at least until we hear from thorgot.

The "i would much rather lynch scum" part of this post sets off alarm bells for me. Why in the world would he mention that? Seems like a scum going out of his way to appear innocent.

FOS:CES
hes replaced into a game and hasnt really done much.
id like to hear more of your opinions, CES.
also, note that the fos will turn into a vote if necessary.

superstring changes his mind again. I guess he doesn't like lurkers.

i'll be gone for the weekend.
i'll get caught up upon my return

NCN

kilm is at the top of my list right now.
along with ces

kilm is echoing fonz, and not giving a whole lot of content.

ces just isn't giving content

id like to see pressure on them, and the one with the most votes presently is kilm

so,
vote:kilmenator

I actually agreed with him here, on my read-through, and was also suspicious of kilm for it. In hindsight, it doesn't look as good. Seems like superstring has mostly gone after players who we have confirmed as townies (or nearly confirmed, in kilm's case)

--- now Superstring drops off the radar for 4 pages ---

i don't have a ton to add right now.

im gonna vote for CES though.
[*]he replaced for dodgy[who was scummy beyond belief]
[*]he barely posted at all
[*]his last post was may 30 which was a new vote. only a new vote


i know i have been posting intermitantly, which is not normal for me, and i hate to leave games hanging.

i will be going on vacation on wednesday for 9 days. i will have essentially no internet[and thus, no mafia for that time] i will make sure i leave with all my suspicions aired, and a satisfactory vote.

He doesn't like that CES has been lurking for a while now. This is understandable, but a few pages back he said he did not want to lynch Dodgy/CES, so I think he needs to explain this change of heart a little better.

oops, i forgot to vote
vote:CES

NCN

--- superstring goes on vacation for a while, when he comes back we are dealing with MBL, who has replaced Dodgy/CES ----

alright, i'm back. my vacation was a little longer than i expected. i can effectively do a full post tonight, but will tomorrow evening.

i will respond to this though;

1) Superstring thinks Dodgy was scummy beyond belief, which is not accurate in my opinion. Superstring tacks on lurking reasons, which is an ok reason to vote, except that it no longer applies because I'm not lurking and because CES just abandoned a newbie game he's modding and therefore I don't think the lurking can be concluded to bear on his alignment in the least.

first, of course it's not accurate in your opinion: YOU"RE BLOODY REPLACING HIM!

secondly, before i left, you were not here. but you are now, so i won't use lurking as a reason to vote you

i am going to leave my vote on until tomorrow, when i have thoroughly reviewed what i have missed

I'm noticing that superstring seems to use lurking as his primary reason for FOS and voting people. This seems to be an easy crutch to fall back on for scum. It allows them to do little true analysis of posting if they can just keep simply saying, "This guy is lurking, let's pressure him." I am getting more confident that superstring is scum. I've certainly never seen pro-town players this stuck on lurking before.

Then superstring doesn't comment again until Day 1 is over. His vote stays on MBL. This could be seen by scum as a "safe" place to have a vote, since Dodgy did look so scummy earlier.

I don't see a whole lot of pro-town actions in there, and only a handful of posts which gave me a pro-town vibe. I see a LOT of suspicious motivations. I would totally support a superstring lynch for today.

Comments?

unvote:

[Off the Mark]

However, the rest of your case against him seemed a bit circumstantial

Agreed that much of the case is circumstancial. Look at how many times I used the words "could be" and "might". With scum that are playing well, you're not usually going to get any better than circumstancial evidence, unless you get a cop investigation or something. And I think everyone left alive in this game is capable of playing well.

your argument seemed to give him credit for having a big, scheming plan that was trying to get into our heads with his posting. I seriously doubt that, if he's scum, he was trying to do anything more than pass his own reasons off as legitimate so that he could escape our suspicion.

Seriously disagree that I was trying to give him credit for a master plan. I was specifically showing his

in

consistencies, especially in regard to his views on Dodgy/CES and the Fonz.

I think he was just trying to make arguments that made it look like he was acting like a typical townie, while also trying to make "safe" accusations, and it led him to some conflicts which he needs to explain.

[Off the Mark]

^^^ I stopped at the end of Day 1, because I figured Day 2 was still fresh in our minds.

[Off the Mark]

heh no guilt here, just wanted to explain that I didn't get lazy or anything

[Off the Mark]

la di da - since Superstring isn't posting, anyone else got comments?

[Off the Mark]

Sure thing, pie. I got nothing to hide:

For some reason, this line keeps sticking in my head whenever I think about this game and it gives me a bad feeling about gorckat. It sounds like something someone would say who was proud of his hard-to-detect-as-scum playing. Just a vibe, though, nothing solid. Maybe I should do a PBPA on Gorckat. Next time I have insomnia... (note the post time on superstring's PBPA)

[Off the Mark]

Anyway- as too my "I got nothing to hide"- couldn't it just be the truth? I don't have anything too hide. Saying it is a scum tell is WIFOM:

Yeah, it could just be truth of course. But it's one of those things where you have to look at the motivation for saying it. Anyway, I used that line in a recent game. I wasn't scum, I was a survivor, and I really did "have nothing to hide" because I was prepared to claim if I needed to. But at the same time, I was being a little dishonest when I said it, because I was not a townie, and I was giving a townie impression with my posts. So it makes me question your use of the same phrase.

[Off the Mark]

Man, nothing is happening in this game. I decided to analyze the inHim bandwagons to see if anything stands out. Here's the order:

Dasquian
IH <-- dead townie
Fonz <-- dead townie
OTM
gorckat
kilmenator

Now we're at lynch -1. Interestingly, Pete D calls attention to this just so no one accidentally hammers inHim. I consider this a point in Pete D's favor.

I would say gorckat and kilm are in the most suspicious positions here. They waited until momentum was firmly established before jumping on board. But of course it could be legitimate too.

Superstring votes for CES.

Nanook also votes CES.

After inHim's refusal to claim, I decide to unvote, putting him at lynch -2.

Pie says he doesn't want to hammer inHim until CES claims, and inHim claims.

Nanook then votes for inHim, says refusal to claim is scummy. Nanook puts him back at lynch -1.

I vote for CES.

Pete D votes for CES.

Nanook unvotes inHim and votes for CES. (seems to be a bit of a follower)

Then there's some unvotes as we discuss with MBL who has replaced CES.

inHim votes for me

I vote for inHim

Bunch of discussion... eventually Pete D votes for me

Fonz votes for me, putting me at 3 votes (I lost track of inHim, he has 3 or 4 at this point)

gorckat unvotes inHim <-- seems to be following a bit too

I FOS gorckat, apparently I had the same thoughts the first time through

gorckat votes for inHim (he says re-reading makes him feel better about this - at least he's taking his own stand here)

inHim is now at 5, MBL is at 3, I am at 3 votes

Pie says inHim is definitely the wrong lynch for today because MBL is the better target. (both turn up town, so make of that what you will)

Nanook says he still thinks MBL is scum

And that's where it ends... inHim is lynched with 5 votes.

Analysis: I don't know, I can't make much out of that mess. Gorckat twice voted in the lynch -2 position, which is somewhat common for scum. His final vote also acted as a sort of hammer on inHim, since it created a gulf between inHim and myself/MBL, who were both at 3. But I know that all three of us on the chopping block were town, so I don't know what else to make of this. I guess I'm still leaning towards superstring as the #1 suspect, but I wouldn't be too surprised if gorckat was scum now. I'm neutral on him at this point.

Other comments on the comings/goings and order of the bandwagon?

[Off the Mark]

Also, on saying that I psuedo-hammered inHim...if I were scum and knew that MBL and inHim and you were town, why would I need to make such a bold, possibly reckless, vote? I could have let the deadline take out any one of three townies.

Agreed, that's one of the reasons I'm neutral on you and not suspicious. Nanook's actions on the wagons do look suspicious. How come he was willing to place a lynch -1 vote on inHim, but then at the end you wanted to stay on MBL?

[Off the Mark]

EBWOP - that last "you" should have been a "he"

I guess I turned it into a question for Nanook in mid-sentence.

[Off the Mark]

gorck - I never said you could be "scum along with string". I am evaluating everyone's case individually. I don't see any blatant scum connections at this point. Interesting that you would jump to that conclusion though, hmmm.

[Off the Mark]

OK, I read over my own bandwagon a couple times, and Nanook is most suspicious to me now. It's like he wanted to get on the first inHim bandwagon, but he didn't want to hammer. Once I unvoted, he got on the bandwagon, since he could do so without hammering. Then later he chose not to switch his vote near the end of the day because he didn't want to arouse suspicion.

FOS: Nanook

Still think superstring has a good chance of being scum, but want to get others' feedback before I place a vote.

[Off the Mark]

EBWOP - d'oh that should have said "I read over my own bandwagon

analysis

"

[Off the Mark]

Gorckat's not my top suspect, but I agree we need a bandwagon to analyze at this point. A lot of his posts have seemed too eager to be friendly. I have this picture of a guy who comes up and throws his arm around you and offers you a drink, but then when the lights go out, he sticks a knife in your back.

And he did pile on a couple bandwagons in lynch -2 position... inHim twice and kilm once. His last vote for inHim does look like something scum wouldn't do, because he could just stand pat and let town die... BUT I had just FOS'd him for being a follower and he almost immediately voted for inHim as if to say, "Look at me, I'm not following!" Seems a little paranoid when you look at it that way.

vote: gorckat

Let's just see where this goes.

[Off the Mark]

Basically I feel a bit at a loss right now. I have suspicions on Nanook and Superstring, but they aren't posting. I'm hoping a gorckat bandwagon will teach us something new.

You know what? I changed my mind. I would rather pressure a lurker than push gorckat.

unvote, vote superstring

I just hate when a game is not moving at all... is refusing to post a viable scum strategy? Frustrating.

[Off the Mark]

Let's not push this too much farther until we get a response.

[Off the Mark]

I never felt that good with my vote on gorckat, but I felt we needed a bandwagon to get more reactions. When I read Pete D's post, I thought, "yeah... why am I voting gorck right now?"

[Off the Mark]

I checked, and superstring and Nanook are posting in other parts of the site (superstring's last post was on August 2, Nanook's on July 31).

vote: superstring91

.

FoS: Nanook

for lurking.

I decided to check this out myself. Superstring posted once, in a game he is modding, on 8/1. Before that, his last post is 7/23. It's not like he's been playing in other games and avoiding this one intentionally.

Nanook, on the other hand, has posted a lot, in a lot of games he is playing/modding, between 7/18 (his last post here) and 7/27, but since 7/27 he has only posted a couple of modding posts on 7/30.

FOS: Pete D

for misleading us with this info. And if Pete D is scum, I find it likely that gorckat is too. Notice how after my gorckat vote, Pete calls it into question and FOS's me, but after my superstring vote, Pete goes out and finds some corroborating evidence (which turns out to be sketchy) and then votes for superstring along with me.

unvote:

for discussion. Leaning towards voting Pete D now.

See? I guess we did need some votes to get things moving again.

[Off the Mark]

Forgot to say, it is possible Nanook is intentionally lurking (or he was, between 7/18 and 7/27) and I'd really like to hear from him.

[Off the Mark]

Hmmm ok, just seems Pete's investigation was a little lazy if he was really trying to analyze if they had been lurking or just absent.

I feel like at this point, I am going to look suspicious for trying to do ANYthing, but if we sit here and do nothing, scum will win. I've decided I don't care if I look a little suspicious, I can deal with it. It's worth getting the game moving again.

I am surprised we have heard so little from Dasq.

[Off the Mark]

Your superstring vote had nothing to do with mine.

I find that very hard to believe. You gave a different reason, but you want me to believe it was just coincidence that you voted for him in the post following my vote? You could have at least claimed that you felt it was time to increase pressure, but saying your vote had nothing to do with mine feels like a lie to me.

[Off the Mark]

I checked Dasq's last post date and saw that he hadn't done anything since then. I figured if pete was being oppotunistic, he would've called out Dasq as well.

This is really bad logic, Gorckat. You think Pete would have called out Dasq when Dasq

didn't

have any recent posts? Pete would have been absolutely giving himself away with a move like that. He needed to make it seem plausible.

[Off the Mark]

I like your analysis, Dasq. Very well done. Only problem is, due to Pete D's recent reaction to my votes, I can't see Pete D and superstring both as scum. So we have to get it right between the 2 at the top of your scummy list.

[Off the Mark]

If we were to simply lynch the scummiest-looking person, it would definitely be superstring.

FYI - I will be away without internet until Monday.

[Off the Mark]

^^^ I didn't mean to limit it down to two suspects like that. Just saying we can't make the mistake of thinking, "Well, both of these guys could be scum, so it might not matter much which one we choose."

The reason I doubt you are both scum is because you were willing to vote for superstring after my initial vote, but you weren't willing to vote for gorckat right away. Of course I could be making the mistake of interpreting townie actions as if they were scummy, but you gotta look at everything both ways.

PJ, I was convinced you were scum, you were pushing the whole Kilm-OTM-gorckat thing so hard, with little-to-no evidence, but glad to see you came around eventually. Hopefully you will not be stuck in a rut again during your next reread.

I have not played with kilm before, but I read a game she was in. No idea which one that was, now.

[Off the Mark]

I like your analysis, Dasq. Very well done. Only problem is, due to Pete D's recent reaction to my votes, I can't see Pete D and superstring both as scum. So we have to get it right between the 2 at the top of your scummy list.

They don't have to be together if they're on competing scum teams.

What? In a "dry, bland, generic" game? I don't think so.

I've read through all the Day 2 conversation again, and I still don't have a strong feeling about who the scum are. If I had to guess, I would say it is superstring and gorckat. It could also be Pete D, but he has given me more town vibes than string and gorck have.

Oh and as to my other theory about string and Pete not being scum together? Throw that out. Pete could be figuring that string does honestly look scummy, so he's getting on the bandwagon early, and then if it goes all the way he looks much less suspicious. Very possible, IF Pete is scum, which I'm still very unsure about.

[Off the Mark]

Didn't mean to, just wasn't sure what the question was asking at first. When I first read it, I though, "Huh? Kilm didn't replace in" but now I get it.

I guess I can see how PJ would think that way, but I think he took a theory that was based on very little and kept looking for things to confirm it, rather than objectively evaluating all the evidence on its own. Basically he ended up making a mountain out of a molehill. Also, he never commented on my belated analysis of kilm's post, which I thought was a bit suspicious at the time, since it addressed one of his earlier suspicions directly.

Now you seem like you're trying to stir the pot, gorckat.

[Off the Mark]

So, flea, any reason we shouldn't lynch you now? I'm feeling about ready to start some voting.

[Off the Mark]

I read Day One with the knowledge that kilmenator had claimed a 1-Shot Vig who had killed a Doctor on Night One... a Doctor claim I believed while I was reading.

I read Day One without the knowledge that the town had mass-claimed and that kilmenator was the only person who could possibly be responsible for explaining a third death.

Good points, I see how that looked bad. Kilm later explained that she wanted to avoid the WIFOM pretzel of "why didn't the scum kill MBL?" but I agree 100% with you, it was a very weird decision by Kilm to use her one vig kill on taking out the semi-claimed doc. I asked her about that earlier and she never answered me.

Link, please? Replacing into a 30-page game means I'm inevitably not going to be able to respond to everything.

It was somewhere near the end of Day 1, I'm not going to bother looking it up now, it's not key for you to respond to it or anything. If I was more suspicious of you at this point, I'd push it, but I am feeling pretty good about you. Your analysis, plus Nanook's statement that he thought Pie was probably the doc makes me much less suspicious of Nanook/you.

[Off the Mark]

First off, HUGE FRIGGIN FOS: OTM and PETED for lurkerlynching. What the hell, people? We're pretty much at LYLO here. Why would you ever, ever vote for a lurker, unless you want to hit an easy target?

So he can just lurk his way to victory? Maybe he's lurking because he sees that everyone thinks he is scummy and he's figured, "Well frig that game then." Who knows? But we certainly can't NOT vote for him just because he is lurking. My vote was based on his D1 behavior, it was not a vote because he was lurking on Day2, but the lurking has not helped my opinion of him.

[Off the Mark]

OK ssf, so who do you think is scum?

[Off the Mark]

No lynch is not the way to go. With two killing groups still out there, the game could end fast for town. We have to lynch.

Can you let me know a little more about why you think that is a good idea, Kilm?

[Off the Mark]

points 6 and 8 - keep reading. I was called out for that already and I explained it. Basically, I did get pro-town vibes from Nanook but after MBL turned up to be doc and not scum, I questioned those vibes and went back to my earlier suspicion of Eletriar.

Later Nanook explained that he thought Pie had to be the doc, which makes sense to me, so I became less suspicious of him. Your analysis has seemed pro-town too, so I am continuing to not be very suspicious. I think if we lynch superstring or gorckat, and possibly Pete D, we have a very high probability of finding scum or the SK.

Your paragraph about gorckat is almost exactly what I almost posted the other day, but I didn't have time to explain it fully. Gorckat has been making posts that subtly throw suspicion on others, as if he is hoping a townie will take his ideas and run with them, without Gorckat himself needing to lead the charge. I know I have used this tactic myself as scum, it's a good one.

I don't want to switch my vote right now though, let's see how this discussion continues a bit first.

[Off the Mark]

OTM: You almost posted the almost exact same thing pj just posted? Do you mean when you voted me and didn't feel good about it?

Yes and No, it was more recent than that. Here are the lines that gave me the feeling you have been trying to cast subtle suspicion without ever building a case:

Second- OTM has jumped quite a bit of late. He tried (or did, depending on your opinion of me) to lay out a case against me when he voted, but then says he never felt good about it.

They don't have to be together if they're on competing scum teams.

Why'd you duck pj's question, OTM?

kilm hasn't posted in the last week. Why not?

Why the distinction between 2 and 3 scum here?

See the pattern here? These questions never went anywhere. It's like you wanted to make others look bad without actually making arguments. Certainly this could be honest investigation, but it gives me a bad feeling about you.

[Off the Mark]

I hedge like that because I want to make it clear that I am only considering possibilities. When I have a conviction about something (which is rare in this game, that I am sure of something) I will say so. Whenever players seem to be sure of something based on sketchy evidence, I immediately think scum. I know I tend to speculate a lot, so I'm making it clear that's that it is: speculation.

[Off the Mark]

You've hedged like this every time you cast any suspicion on me. How is that any different than you saying I'm implying suspicion?

You're right about that, it is similar.

[Off the Mark]

You're doing it again.

When you keep asking probing/accusatory questions, but you don't ever follow them up by stating suspicions/opions, then it seems you must have an alternate motive.

[Off the Mark]

Hey I'm not voting for you, am I? So clearly I don't feel THAT strongly about this scumtell. But I do think it is worth discussing.

[Off the Mark]

In my experience, scum are less likely to bus their partners as the game (is at/approaches) LyLo.

So... wouldn't it follow then that ssf is MORE likely to be scum, since this bandwagon is moving along (well, compared to the in-general glacial pace of this game, it is moving) and we ARE fairly close to lylo?

vote: somestrangeflea

I'm getting rather bored of this game, it's time for something to happen. I can't see a lurker replacing into a game who is TOWN but is under major suspicion and then just ignoring it. Seems like he should be fighting tooth and nail to stay alive. But he just pretty much said, "yeah, superstring looked scummy, I'll try to help you." and then disappeared. That seems like scum behavior to me who is disgusted with being put into a no-win situation. I'm happy with this vote.

[Off the Mark]

^^^ true, interesting that you immediately saw things from the scum perspective as well. I guess I felt it would be more dire if you felt "the town is WRONG and I have to do something about it" rather then "well they caught me". The first situation seems more like one worth fighting for, don't you think?

[Off the Mark]

Superstring = SSF

SSF is at lynch -1 then, with only kilm or pie left to pull the trigger. It concerns me that scum are willing to bus SSF, (unless there are only 2 scum, and Pie is the other one) this makes me think we may be on the wrong track here.

Experiment time.

unvote, vote: gorckat

[Off the Mark]

I didn't expect that you would. My hypothesis is that you and Gorck are scum together. Your pattern of how you've responded to my votes fits that theory too perfectly.

[Off the Mark]

I know ssf is being completely scummy and unhelpful. But I can't help but think that real scum would have more motivation to try to steer us in the wrong direction at this point. Also, I don't think scum would be so willing to quickly bus another scum at this point. I know all my arguments on string/ssf were reasonable, but the voting pattern worries me. So now I think Gorck/Pete D are scum.

[Off the Mark]

Maybe Dasq is the 3rd scum... PJ, Pie, and Kilm (and myself of course) all seem a lot more townish to me right now than Dasq, Pete, and Gorck. SSF I have no idea, but we also have an SK role still out there too.

[Off the Mark]

I admit to being confused.

[Off the Mark]

And actually, of those quotes you quoted, #2, #3, #4 (considering that statement was followed by a BUT), and #5 are in absolute agreement with each other. And #1 is not a strong point, it's a response to Pie's theory. You are trying to misrepresent my opinions.

[Off the Mark]

Seeing the vote count and analyzing it is what changed my mind.

[Off the Mark]

Just to finish off the vote count:

Not voting: PJ and SSF

Interested in hearing others' opinions on the latest developments.

[Off the Mark]

So, Dasq, what's your theory about my behavior then? You gave me an FOS, so you must have one.

You think I'm scum with superstring/ssf? Look over Day2, that sure doesn't make much sense. I did the PBPA that made him look scummy as hell. I voted for him, including a lynch-1 vote.

I can't be scum with string/ssf, not after being the one to build a case against him. And I wouldn't switch my vote away from him if I were scum and he was a townie, right? So, the only remaining possibility is that I am not scum and I legitimately changed my mind. I know you are a sharp guy, so since you didn't think about these things from a true scumhunting perspective, I feel I must:

FOS: Dasquian

[Off the Mark]

And I realize that type of argument involves a lot of WIFOM, but that would be some kinda crazy master plan if I was doing all that superstring analysis and voting for him all for distancing purposes. Not likely.

[Off the Mark]

You could be right. He's still at lynch-2, and thus needs to start talking.

[Off the Mark]

Scum can do great pro-town analysis too, ya know. Especially when townies legitimately look scummy.

[Off the Mark]

I vote gorckat, you FOS me.
I vote superstring, you vote superstring, gorckat votes superstring.
I vote gorckat, you say you don't like it.

That's the pattern.

[Off the Mark]

I'm FOSing you because you are behaving erratically and have been all day. I have two theories:

1) You are a townie who can't sit still.
2) You are scum who can't sit still.

How about:

3) I am a townie who purposely moves his vote around in order to get reactions and figure out who is who. I reanalyze the bandwagon constantly instead of sticking with my gut feeling.

[Off the Mark]

1 and 3 are misrepresentative. I didn't FoS you because of the player, I foSed you because of your actions. Same with 3. Like I said, if it had been anyone other than gorckat involved, I would still have said exactly the same thing. Question: Do you think that the sentiment of my concerns was wrong?

Actually, yeah, I do. I had had recent suspicions of gorckat too, so it wasn't inconceivable that I'd vote for him, for the sake of starting a bandwagon. I explained that when I voted him. But you had a problem with it. You even helped change my mind. But now when I see the whole pattern, I don't trust you anymore.

As for 2, thats pretty selective. I mean, you revoted string afterwoods, does that make you scum with me and dasq? Or how about Nanook, superstring and pie, they all voted for MBL, they must be scumbuddies too right?

I'm not saying your follow-the-leader votes automatically make you scum, but looking at the whole pattern, it seems like the most solid evidence I see right now.

[Off the Mark]

I don't mean to dominate the conversation. This is just an extremely slow-moving game. I don't think posting 2-3 times per day is unreasonable, it just looks like a lot when no one else is contributing. I'm very interested in Pie's, kilm's, ssf's, and pj's opinions on the latest.

[Off the Mark]

There were 3 nightkills last night. So we either have 2 mafias or we have an SK.

[Off the Mark]

he quacking, flapping, swimming thing that sounds, looks and moves like a duck could just very well be a duck.

The only way the ssf bandwagon moved along as a result of being correct is if Pie and kilm are the other 2 scum, and I can't accept that. I also can't accept a quick bus when scum has a chance to win today with a mislynch + a good night for them. There is still a good chance that ssf is the SK.

[Off the Mark]

I am pretty confident pj is town.

[Off the Mark]

I guess SK is a possibility too, for pj.

[Off the Mark]

I am not experimenting anymore, my friend. Hypothesis confirmed by Pete D's behavior.

[Off the Mark]

I do not see it as impossible to be bussing

So you think I stayed up in the middle of the night and posted a huge PBPA on my scumbuddy which made him look guilty to everybody else? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Feeling pretty good about this vote on gorckat now.

[Off the Mark]

It follows that they

could

, but it doesn't necessarily follow that they

would

. That is a different analysis.

I had no idea you were out of town when I voted for you. It didn't factor into my decision.

It's kinda funny you are arguing that superstring was scummy, and that scum would bus him. YOU voted him too, you know. But I'm pretty convinced he's actually town now, based on the bandwagon, and on this comment:

I will, however, say that I am slightly disturbed by Dasquian beginning to create cases on other players (namely PJ) based on the assumption that I'm scum. DO NOT WANT. =P

Major townie vibes there.

[Off the Mark]

He has a problem with Das looking for pairings that make sense given he hasn't been hammered, but you can do it yourself?

Yep.

[Off the Mark]

I don't think ssf and gorckat are scum together. Not at all. I think gorckat and Pete D are scum together.

I just wanted to point out to gorckat the hypocrisy of his argument, since he was so intent on insisting that ssf could be scum and scum could be bussing him.

[Off the Mark]

Different reasons though. Plus I'm tired of arguing with scum.

[Off the Mark]

I have tried to play "convince the town" in this game before, and it never works out well. I feel I have made the evidence pretty clear. If other townies don't agree and don't want to vote for gorckat, that's their problem, not mine.

Just look at the voting pattern, and you'll see what I see. I don't expect to convince you Dasq, as you are still the most likely 3rd scum in my book. Superstring/ssf is the perfect easy target for today's mislynch, from a scum perspective.

[Off the Mark]

I'm not as sure about you, Das, that's why I said "most likely." You seem to be over-questioning my theory and throwing suspicion in my direction and - most tellingly - trying to accuse me of being scumbuddies with superstring without really thinking about what that

means

regarding my previous actions. Therefore it makes sense for me to have you near the top of my suspicious list at the moment.

But like I said, I could be wrong about you, but I'm pretty sure I'm right about gorck and Pete.

[Off the Mark]

No. Are you trying to say she was implying she was not a vig? I see nothing wrong with a cop saying "we might have a cop" for example.

[Off the Mark]

Why are we not lynching this guy?

Because I doubt he is scum. I can't believe everyone else is not seeing the lockstep agreement at this point between gorck, Pete, and Dasq. It's almost too obvious.

[Off the Mark]

Pretty much your only comment about Day One was along the lines of "Wow, SS's really screwed me over". I'm not sure how I'm supposed to believe you've read the thread a couple weeks ago when that's your only commentary. Furthermore, the fact that your response to allegations against SSF is "well, I can't defend what SSF did" is scummier than townie - townspeople are much more likely to actually defend their predecessor on what points that they can, whereas scum are much more likely to try to ask for people to judge them from a clean slate.

This is actually a pretty good point.

[Off the Mark]

Anyone who interested me during Day 1 is dead now, so I wasted no time commenting on it. TBH, you've all been quite unoutstanding Day 1, which, ironically makes you all quite good townies. Well done, BTW, you've all made my life hell.

Getting more town vibes from ssf. I don't think a scum would be intentionally vague like this.

[Off the Mark]

PJ - when I say someone is giving me town vibes, it's really more non-mafia vibes. SSF or you could easily be the SK, but I don't think you're mafia. It's easier to give off a town vibe when you're the SK, since you aren't linked to anyone else and can play dumb convincingly.

It's also very possible that I am wrong and Pie is scum instead of Dasq or maybe Gorck and Pete are clean, who knows. (That would mean I am a lunatic who should be ignored, but hey I've been wrong before) But right now I feel most comfortable with the Pete and Gorck scumbuddy theory.

[Off the Mark]

So Das, you're saying you'd support a Pete D lynch? Because I could get on board with that.

[Off the Mark]

Didn't think so. Can we move on with this game please? Anyone who's not voting, please vote or at least ask a question / make a comment that will lead you to a vote. The pace of this game is ridiculous. If it doesn't pick up, I'm about ready to ask for replacement because this is getting incredibly boring.

[Off the Mark]

He is clearly not interested in addressing his own bandwagon and that

must

be punishable by death.

Huh? He's been posting as much as the average poster in this slooow game. He defended himself just last Friday before the holiday weekend. Your post is ridiculous.

[Off the Mark]

Alright, so it wasn't a great defense. But it seemed like you were trying to make it look like he had given up, Dasq, which I felt was an exaggeration. His behavior still seems more like cornered townie than caught-red-handed-scum, to me. I agree he should be trying to defend himself more, but that doesn't make him scum.

[Off the Mark]

SSF, your vote on Dasq and your nonchalant attitude towards his accusations aren't really helping you. I'm still leaning town on you, but I think you're doing a lousy job playing as a townie who's replaced into a tough spot.

Gorckat or Pete are clearly better plays than Dasq IMO, for today's lynch. If one of them comes up clean, then maybe we can trust Dasq a little more, as he does seem like a pretty bright guy who could help us if he is indeed pro-town. If we kill Dasq and he's town, it's a worse loss IMO than if Gorck or Pete were to get mislynched. My best guess at this point would be that they're all scum, but let's lynch Gorckat first and see where that leads us.

I just know someone's going to say this post is scummy, for whatever reason, but I've been beating the Gorck-Pete-Dasq drum for a while now and nothing has happened to change my mind.

[Off the Mark]

It is scummy.

Your best guess is that the three of us are scum, but you want me to go first and

you refused Das on a pete lynch

.

Whoah, that is not AT ALL what happened. *WHOOP WHOOP* scum alert, people! Das mentioned that he maybe thought Pete could be scum. I offered

to Dasq

that I would support a Pete D lynch and then

Dasq refused

. You twisted the whole thing around to try to make it look like I was the one acting scummy instead of Dasq! I can't believe we haven't lynched you already.

Also- your position that losing Das hurts more than losing me is illogical. If you think the three of us are scum, letting the bright one live ain't much gud sens, y'know?

It's perfectly logical. Keeping a smart pro-town player around can help the town a lot. If you turn up scum, then we know Dasq has a high likelihood of also being scum, and then who cares if he's smart? Smart scum can't hurt the town at all if we know he's scum.

[Off the Mark]

Dasq's question rephrased:

Are you sure you wouldn't rather vote with the scum and finish off ssf?

My answer: Heck yeah I'm sure!

Vote gorckat, people.

[Off the Mark]

Now that I can agree with.

[Off the Mark]

Actually, no, it's not the same. It would be the same if SSF was voting for you, but he's not, he's voting for Dasq. I think the town's votes are scattered around right now, while the scum votes are all pushing the SSF wagon, making it look inevitable. Town needs to make a decision, and unfortunatley for us, if just one townie sides with the scum, we lose.

[Off the Mark]

If Das isn't scum, I would look at Pie or PJ as the 3rd scum. PJ is more likely since Pie has been pushing Gorck for a while.

[Off the Mark]

You get points for dramatic urgency, but lose some for lack of subtlety with a hamfisted attempt to push your agenda

I find it telling that you didn't refute my assertion that the SSF wagon is scum-driven. I think that normally the scum wouldn't put themselves all on the same bandwagon like this. But you guys have gotten stuck because I was originally on the bandwagon and am now off of it. So now you have to lie in the bed you've made, so to speak. Changing tactics at this point would seem scummier than staying put and hoping a townie makes the wrong decision, so that's what you're doing.

[Off the Mark]

Interesting, since prior to replacement, Nanook had just said I was the top suspect and pj's first vote, once he'd settled in and re-read twice, was to vote me.

At the point pj came in, iirc, a string lynch was more likely than lynching me. Same for Nanook- only pie, if anyone, had voted me when he suspected me.

Hmm you're right, I guess Das

is

the third scum after all.

Are you trying to make me look bad, by making it look like I am suspicious of other players besides you three banditos? Your attempt is transparent and scummy. Das is much scummier to me than any of the others.

Seriously, what was the point of you asking that question? I expect a real answer.

[Off the Mark]

Stalin and Hitler - LOL too funny. I have become a bit married to my suspicions, I admit it. It seems like the more I press, and the more responses I get, the more sure I become. I will feel terrible if I am wrong, but I don't think I am. I'm just not getting any town vibes from you guys in all your responses. There are more things I could break down to make a case against you, but they are pretty much nitpicky things that would make me look worse for bringing them up.

OK OK, I'll bring up just one. A couple of times, you have said "Honestly" or "to be honest". To me this is a major scumtell. This tells me that the statement you make when you say "honestly" is true, but many of the other things you are saying is a lie. This is true in real life too. When you meet people who say, "honestly" or "I swear this is true" a lot, it generally means they are habitual liars.

[Off the Mark]

By the way, I didn't get an answer to my question. Why did you want to know who else I might think is scummy, if Dasq is not scum? You are trying to create enmity between townies.

Also, you are pretty much defending Dasq by asking that question.

[Off the Mark]

PJ - I'd have to do a major re-evaluation if Gorckat came up town. Honestly, it's hard to even imagine at this point. I would have to suspect Pie, I suppose.

Pete has had plenty of suspicion, Gorckat, wtf are you talking about?

[Off the Mark]

The very fact that it's taken so long for ANYONE to climb on board the gorckat wagon makes me very convinced that he is indeed scum. If he were a townie, scum would have piled on by now. But since I voted, no one else has piled on. Town is being careful, and rightfully so.

[Off the Mark]

He very well could be the third scum, but that is less likely than either pie or pj, or

maybe even pete

.

What odd phrasing. Totally scummy. Poor attempt at distancing there.

[Off the Mark]

Oh give me a break, here come the personal insults. It's up to the rest of the town to decide, I'm done.

Gorc - the situation is NOT the same with SSF because IMO the scum did already pile on. Since you haven't been piled on, you must be scum.

[Off the Mark]

No. People were happy enough to pile on SSF's bandwagon. The only reason he wasn't lynched is because I unvoted him. Now I think those people were scum.

No one has piled on your bandwagon. Pie voted you first a while ago, and after further analysis of the voting pattern and reactions to SSF votes, I agreed that you were most likely scum, so I climbed on your wagon. And that's where we sit. Where are the scum voters on your wagon, if you are not scum? Pie could be scum, but he would be going out on his own. You think the other scum are ignoring you? When their scumbuddy (according to your theory) SSF is about to be lynched? It really doesn't make much sense. If the scum trio were myself, Pie, and SSF, then SSF would be on your wagon already. But he is voting for who he legitimately thinks looks the scummiest to him, Dasquian, which makes sense for a townie to do.

But now I think town has to look at this evidence and figure out that we need to come to a consensus to get a lynch. I really don't care if it's Gorck or Pete, or even Dasq. I'm pretty sure I've got the game figured out. You guys sure have defended each other quite a bit. Gorck has acted scummiest, IMO, so I think he is our best bet.

[Off the Mark]

Your arguments are based on faulty assumptions:

1) "Scum cannot bus each other" - you repeatedly argue/assume that if X is scum, then anyone voting X cannot be scum and so the scum voters must be easily identifiable from who's left.
2) "Scum always go for gold" - you seem to assume that when a townie is being bandwagonned, all the scum would be on the bandwagon.
3) "Scum always defend each other" - you are basing a lot off of who has stuck up for who in this game, and tracing a scum group out from one suspect to the "nearest" others.

I'm not assuming those things are absolutely true. You are discrediting my argument by creating "rules" that I am not using. (and doing a good job, btw, I hate arguing with good scum)

1) I DO think scum can bus each other, but as Pie said earlier, I think it is less likely at this point in the game.

2) I know scum don't always pile on a townie bandwagon, but I expect that SOME would.

3) And I know scum don't always defend each other, but later in the game, they are more likely to. I am not a moron, I know how to play as scum, and I know that if you followed those rules, you would be found out very quickly.

As I said before, I think you guys have been trapped on this SSF wagon and now you'd look scummy for switching tactics, so you're sticking to your guns. Normally, scum wouldn't be so obvious, but you've gotten stuck this way and now you're basically using a WIFOM argument. (your whole line of arguing here is basically "scum wouldn't be obvious like this" but that is WIFOM at its finest)

[Off the Mark]

Question for Dasquian and Pete D:

What makes you so sure that Gorckat is not scum? You have gone to great lengths to defend him. (especially Dasq)

[Off the Mark]

Just noticed this on reread. Check out this post from Gorckat:

The reason I ask is because:

I think you are too married to your suspicions

. Yes- I want enmity between you and townies because...

I think you're scum with flea

! Why make peace?

The two bolded statements make no sense together. "Married to your suspicions" is something a

townie

player does who is playing poorly. But then Gorckat says he thinks I'm

scum

! Scum can't be married to their suspicions because they don't have "suspicions". Therefore, gorckat is a liar.

I rest my case. Lynch Gorckat.

[Off the Mark]

Being married to bogus suspicions doesn't make any sense either.

[Off the Mark]

Pete - that goes back to the voting pattern more than anything you've explicitly said. You didn't like my gorckat votes both times, but you voted along with me for superstring quite happily. I don't think you've come out and defended him, but looking at your voting, perhaps you should. Saying one thing and doing another is scummy.

[Off the Mark]

So, you going to vote? You seem to think Gorckat and SSF are the scummiest. Do you think Gorck is bussing SSF? Who would you rather vote for?

[Off the Mark]

Bah, well, I guess I hope I am wrong then.

[Off the Mark]

Yes, I want to see ssf lynched here so I am nowhere close to impartial, nor pretending to be, but that's also in line with wanting to see the game progress.

You sure are careful to tiptoe around your motivations here. It's like you're saying, "I know this seems scummy, but I'm not being scummy, I have valid reasons, honest I do!!" More evidence that you are scum to me.

[Off the Mark]

If we lynch the SK, and Mafia kills a townie, we lose tonight. Just want to make sure that is clear to the town. It is not good enough to lynch "a scum" we need to lynch mafia. I just don't see how SSF is connected to anyone else at this point, but I can see him coming up SK.

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Ok, well I have finished my reread (though I skimmed over the last 5 pages or so), and WOW this game began crazy, stalled, got exciting, then got boring. Heres what I thought

Please read the last 5 pages more carefully. I know it seems boring because opinions aren't changing a lot in there, but that's where the three amigos have really stood out to me as an obvious scum trio. I think I make some decent arguments in there, that have unfortunately been mostly ignored since most of the players still active in this game are scum IMO.

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SSF - you are not voting for anyone, correct? Do you think that is a pro-town move at this point? I don't like fence sitters.

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Well, like I said, I hope I'm wrong. That "muahahaha" was rather ominous.

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Told ya. Our hope lies in the hands of the SK.

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SK please take out Gorckat - you can't be left alone with scum if you hope to win.

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Hell I don't care. Gorck, Pete, Dasq, take your pick. I just think you've acted scummy most frequently, so you're the easiest choice.

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Isn't Dasq the smart one you want to keep alive in case he's town?

You sound like you're mocking me. Stop.

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Of course, there's no chance that if ssf is mafia, he's still lying, is there? [/sarcasm]

Doubtful. With a hidden text box? No motivation there.

So Gorck, how do you feel about ssf most likely being a townie after all? Your analysis of how you see things NOW should be entertaining, at the very least.

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So you're saying that despite my reversal on SSF, if he shows up town, you STILL think I am "looking good" as scum? Unbelievable.

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Hardly mocking. Pointing out more hypocrisy.

You're the one that said Dasq should be kept around in case he's town. IIRC, you'd go after him if I and/or pete were scum. Now you're offering him up to the SK.

I said that pages ago, and it was never something I was adamant about, it was just a "I prefer Gorckat or Pete over Dasq because of ..." type comment. You are misrepresenting me by saying I "wanted to keep Dasq around." That is BS. I am now more confident than I was then that Dasq is scum, after some of our more recent interactions.

So Mr. SK, I don't care who you kill, as long as it's one of those 3.

The very fact that Gorckat continues to go after me, EVEN IF SSF IS TOWN, is horribly condemning. Any reasonable townie would have me very low on their suspicion list given what happened Day 2, assuming SSF is town.

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That's not what I asked you. Assuming ssf is town, how would that affect your suspicions? Answer the question.

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You're still not answering my question. That's OK, I didn't expect you to. Here's the question, rephrased one more time:

If ssf does indeed come up town (which he will) WHO DO YOU THINK IS SCUM?

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Good grief! How hard is it to answer the fricking question!!! Surely you will have some thoughts in your head after ssf's role reveal and before the morning scene. I'll ask it again:

After SSF comes up town, who will you suspect? If you MUST have a morning scene before you can begin thinking, then pretend no one dies overnight.

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The reason I'm asking is obvious. I think your answers are revealing YOU as scum, hopefully giving the SK more reason to kill you tonight. Your repeated avoidance of the question is already speaking volumes.

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OK that's FIVE times you have refused to answer the question. I'm done trying to squeeze milk out of this turnip. Hopefully it is as obvious to the SK as it is to me that you are scum at this point.

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I asked him specifically BECAUSE I expected he would find it very difficult to give a reasonable answer. I need the SK to realize who the scum are tonight - that's my motivation. If you were a townie, you'd be thinking the same way. Can't you see we need to try to influence the SK? Yup, that's more evidence against you, that you're willing to sit back.

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OK that's FIVE times you have refused to answer the question. I'm done trying to squeeze milk out of this turnip. Hopefully it is as obvious to the SK as it is to me that you are scum at this point.

Heh, I think that was supposed to be "blood" that you squeeze from turnips, not milk.

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Then he'll readjust them again when more stiffs show up at daybreak, and

then

and only then will he have a chance to talk about what he's thinking, if he's even still alive. Same as the rest of us.

<snip>

Roll on day 3; even twilights drag in this game

World's smallest, yippiest dog here:

If the SK chooses to kill a townie, there won't BE a day 3. Hence my insistence on talking NOW.

[Off the Mark]

correction: I guess if Mafia and SK both kill townies, the game will continue, but we'd be down to 1 town, 3 mafia, 1 SK, and I really don't think I like that scenario.

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I need to reread and I am moving this wkend so it may be a few days before I can contribute much. I am quite surprised Dasquian was targeted by scum.

Gorckat is an easy choice for me at this point for a

Pseudo: Gorckat

but I need to think about the implications of Dasq-as-SK. Hopefully Gorck is the other scum and that's it - 2 scum and 1 SK? Does that happen much? Every game I have been in so far has been 3 scum at least (besides newbie C9).

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Okay, nobody vote quickly - it's pretty much assured we're in LyLo. I'll reread the game soon to find out who pete's

partners

are.

Besides the fact that this whole post seems a bit forced, the fact that you're assuming there are multiple partners (I think that is probable but we do not know it yet) makes me suspicious of you. I may have to reread your analysis when you first entered. Seemed solid at the time.

minor

FOS: PJ

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I haven't seen it actually, that's why I was asking if it was possible. Every game I've been in though, people bring up 2 mafia + SK as a possibility, so I assume it happens. All my games have been 3 mafia + some kind of neutral though, so you are probably right. I'm having a hard time putting Pete and Gorckat with a 3rd, though... gotta make time for that reread still.

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Actually, I gotta consider Pie as suspect too.... he was always on Gorckat, but I don't think he ever went after Pete. So now Pete and Pie seem possible, with Gorckat as a scummy-playing townie. Bah, no more blather before I go back and read again.

[Off the Mark]

Interesting, since prior to replacement, Nanook had just said I was the top suspect and pj's first vote, once he'd settled in and re-read twice, was to vote me.

At the point pj came in, iirc, a string lynch was more likely than lynching me. Same for Nanook- only pie, if anyone, had voted me when he suspected me.

This is a very interesting post by Gorckat. It's making me look at PJ's actions in a whole new way. He did indeed come in and vote for gorckat when a superstring/SSF lynch was much more likely. Then later on, (after much suspicious behavior by Gorckat IMO) he ended up on the SSF bandwagon. This tells me his first vote could very well be a distancing vote. When it counted more, he voted for who he had to vote for, SSF.

FOS: petroleum jelly and Gorckat

as the last two scum

[Off the Mark]

Interesting. Now I really need a reread. Tough to make time for this game when your house is in complete disarray.

[Off the Mark]

I don't think Pete's behavior makes sense unless Gorckat is scum. How come he was so adamant to vote for string/SSF but never even considered switching to Gorckat? If Gorck and SSF were both townies, it seems like he would consider switching.