433: Dry, bland, generic mafia: Game Over

[Thestatusquo]

Nanook the wolf replaces eletriar.

[NanookTheWolf]

Hey guys .. just replaced, give me a little time to catch up on some reading.

[NanookTheWolf]

My vote goes out to ...

Vote: Cogito Ergo Sum

This vote partly is placed based on the fact that I'm interested more so in finding out more about this doc claim. It's not so much that I want to be sure he's the doc as I am curious as to him being scum. I find it odd his initial reaction to Dodgy's behaviors and why not continuing with the doc claim was scummy.

Why suddenly retract a role claim that's already been made is something that I've always had difficulties dealing with.

One issue I've had in the past with Dodgy was much similar to this one, and for whatever reason I always have Dodgy pinned as scum in a game whether he is or not.

At this point in the game with lessened discussion I'd rather push a "re-claim" and or new claim from CES to clear the air.

I'm not saying just lynch the guy, but for whatever reason that he may or may not change his role claim should ly informative to the players in this game. We can't really hurt anything from knowing if he's the actual doctor considering that the claims been made already through Dodgy and no matter what he claims the mafia will have a hold on the night's decisions.

CES also seems to be avoiding participation in the game. Why place a 3rd vote on Off the mark with no explanation what so ever?

The only other person really sticking out to me is Gorckat ..

I've found his play in this game to be flamboyant when voting for one. He had a sudden change of heart when Kilmenator had 4 votes and seemed to take advantage of throwing on the 5th. Originally he had voted Kilmenator, retracted his vote and placed it on Thorgot aka Off the mark, based on what? .. Joke logic?

That's all I've really got for now

Other players haven't really uped any of my suspicion thus far so not much point in listing my opinions of them just yet.

[Pie_is_good]

This is a shameless "Hi, I'm here" post. I'll try and skim over the weekend, then read in depth the weekend after that.

Scum may begin enjoying their last week of the game.

[NanookTheWolf]

Hush you ..

I'm a bit rusty and honestly after reading 13 pages straight with 10 of them primarily focused on debates with the Fonz, it was hard for me to even come up with that ..

[Dasquian]

Nanook - what in Pie's post elicited your somewhat defensive reply?

[Off the Mark]

I don't like that post by Nanook one bit:

FOS: Nanook

As I explained a little bit earlier, anyone pushing for a role claim from CES seems fishy to me at this point. Also, Eletriar (who Nanook replaced) seemed to be scummily flying under the radar earlier in the game.

I do agree with him somewhat about Gorckat, though... a couple of his posts seemed "off" to me too, while reading through, but overall I felt his suspicions made sense, if you can ignore the jokes. So I came away thinking, "goofy but pro-town"

[Off the Mark]

EBWOP

Sorry, but by "that post by Nanook", I meant post 302. Although 304 is pretty odd too.

[gorckat]

The only other person really sticking out to me is Gorckat ..

I've found his play in this game to be flamboyant when voting for one. He had a sudden change of heart when Kilmenator had 4 votes and seemed to take advantage of throwing on the 5th. Originally he had voted Kilmenator, retracted his vote and placed it on Thorgot aka Off the mark, based on what? .. Joke logic?

Flamboyant is not an adjective often used to describe me...I'll take it as a compliment

thorgot/OTM and kilmenator are at the top of my list.

thorgot was inactive, inattentive, never really weighed in on Dodgy and even his replacement suspected him during his pre-PM reading of the thread. However, I assume his replacement will be contributing more, so some of the reasons I voted him may be invalidated.

I left kilm to vote thorgot primarily to generate some discussion. Yes- he popped up as my joke logic's target and I had missed TSQ's post saying four people were due replacement. My earlier reasons were still valid, but I probably would not have voted him had I seen he was likely to be replaced.

Hopping back on kilm to put her at -2 is the first opportunity I've had to put pressure on someone I felt deserved it.

My vote on inHim was more of a "Hey- people are waiting for you to answer a direct question!" vote.

[gorckat]

I do agree with him somewhat about Gorckat, though... a couple of his posts seemed "off" to me too, while reading through, but overall I felt his suspicions made sense, if you can ignore the jokes. So I came away thinking, "goofy but pro-town"

Now goofy

is

a word used to describe me I'll take that as a compliment, too.

[IH]

I SHOULD, should now barring something happening, finish my reread tonight.

[NanookTheWolf]

This is a shameless "Hi, I'm here" post.

I'll try and skim over the weekend, then read in depth the weekend after that.

Scum may begin enjoying their last week of the game.

Nanook - what in Pie's post elicited your somewhat defensive reply?

The part that's underlined .. Shameless maybe, but it's really all I got right now.

As I explained a little bit earlier, anyone pushing for a role claim from CES seems fishy to me at this point.

As you may have stated this earlier, it's ok for me to disagree with your point .. You can fos me all you like, however I'm not looking for an ally, just stating the facts from my perspective.

Didn't get the response that I thought I would from gorckat which would've landed him more as scum IMO. So I'll leave my vote on CES still for now as that's really my best lead.

I'd rather take my chances with the outed supposed doc, then possibly revealing a more powerful town role and giving the mafia more then one choice on the pickings tonight .. but that's just me.

[inHimshallibe]

Heh, I'm pretty certain pie was referring to his very own post 303 instead of yours, Nanook.

I'm going to let all the replacements weigh in before I really say anything else. Maybe I was premature in thinking we were at the bandwagon to lynch part of Day 1, as the newcomers are pretty highly regarded by myself. Although, they'd be even more highly regarded if they came to their conclusions quickly .

[NanookTheWolf]

OOOOOH! .. Totally misinterpreted Pie's post, hence the confusion/defensiveness as you call it inhim.

[Pie_is_good]

Heh, that post actually generated discussion?

Yeah, I was referring to my own post there. After a brief skim of the recent stuff, my gut is telling my Gorckat is our scum, but I haven't taken the time to put my finger on anything concrete yet. No defense needed yet, but expect something to follow.

[gorckat]

After a brief skim of the recent stuff, my gut is telling my Gorckat is our scum, but I haven't taken the time to put my finger on anything concrete yet. No defense needed yet, but expect something to follow.

Take your time- I'll gladly answer whatever anyone finds.

[NanookTheWolf]

I'm in favor of not lynching CES. I think we learn more having a 'known unknown' than not having it. Rather than do the mafia's job for them, I say let them kill the doc and let's turn our attention towards the other 10 unknowns (12 minus CES and my/yourself). If he's around tomorrow we can deal with him.

I find this statement contradictory to the next ..

vote:CES

One, to get some discussion (hopefully). Two, for ducking and running with an itty-bitty post that adds little, if anything.

I looked through all of gorckat's posts and honestly nothing really sticks out as necessarily being scummy on his part. The quotes above are just to show an example of why I call Gorckat flamboyant.

By reading his posts, the main thing I take notice to is that Gorck will post his concerns on a particular player then possibly vote for them .. then in the post which follows it, he suddenly has a new 'target' so to speak.

I don't know if it's gorck's style, or if it's his particular role in this game which makes him operate this way .. but it's something that sparks the pit in my stomach as being a bit on the scummy side.

I will

Unvote: CES

for now, since I really don't have anything further to prosecute him. Others have voiced their opinions on the matter and it doesn't seem that it's a battle that I'll win.

However, If CES does miraculously live tomorrow, I will voice my concerns and more then likely vote for him unless he's able to prove that he is what Dodgy claimed he is.

Is it just me, or is it a tad bit strange that a pro-town player has claimed doc, been replaced, and suddenly wants to take back this claim with the inclination of knowing that if he really is the doc that he's dead tonight. I don't like having mafia before the town who the doctor is.

The only way I see CES to be smart with that move, is if he isn't the doctor and he's trying to conceal that fact, and not look like a liar to the town.

This is why someone's actions (like dodgy's) makes the game just that much more difficult.

PS - Please can someone else weigh in on this game .. Not very many posts made today. I believe Fonz was the most vocal player in the game before I replaced, what happened fonz?

[gorckat]

I think the little goofy 'flair/flamboyance' might be a style thing that means I'm becoming more comfrotable on the site. This is only my second mini, plus two Newbies. In the meatworld, I try not to sweat the small stuff and do tend to make and enjoy stupid jokes and draw bizarre connections between thigns to my amusement.

As for moving my votes as I have, one thing I'm learning in this game and the other one that I'm in is that just calling someone out isn't always effective. Voting people gets their attention. No doubt I'm doing so in the most hamfisted fashion possible.

This game has gone through some weird swings of personal meltdowns and dreadful lulls and I feel I've tried to use my vote to help keep things going.

Now, as for my not wantign to lynch CES and then voting him: a few things had changed in between.

1) When CES replaced in, I felt a lynch of him gave the scum the edge if he turned out to be the doc. Hellish though it might be (WIFOM central as mentioned), I'd rather deal with him tomorrow or force the scum to take him out.
2) He said he felt "like hopping on a bandwagon" on 5-6. His next post ws 5-12: "Typo or Freudian slip?" (page 10).
3) I voted CES because he still hadn't voted anyone, and the game was craaaawling at that point.
4) After he checked in (and still hadn't voted after saying we all needed to vote more), I saw thorgot's laziness/inattentiveness. Thinking it scummy, since they can get away without paying too much attention becaue they know more than the rest of us, I called him out.

Anyway- yes, things have changed a bit since I laid out my reasons to let CES live. Still think that's the right choice at this time. Also note that between each of my vote changes, several meaty days passed- time spent reviewing and with others posting.

[Pie_is_good]

Dasquain

Dasquain seemed to make quite a bit of sense - I found myself agreeing with Das's posting early on. Got a bit of unneccesary crap for putting on a fourth randombandwagon vote, but defended it just fine. Nothing really jumped out at me as scummy, and given that Das has been a reasonably active poster, he hasn't really twirked my scumdar. I think I just made up a new word.

Anyways, Das also had some defending of CES later in the game. I disagreed with it, but it seemed genuine from Das's perspective. As someone said earlier, mafia is a game of lynching scum, not lynching people who disagree with you.

Dodgy/CES

Dodgy played his game scummy as hell (I tended to agree with The Fonz in most posting). Claim of doctor? Eh. It's a

very

fakable claim as scum. And, "no reason to disbelieve the doc claim?" Eh? How about the whole "Dodgy was acting scummy" thing? And why is he getting off the hook for throwing a hissy fit? I'm not sure why the bandwagon against him died. I'd have stayed on it.

CES retracts dodgy's claim, which is scummy, on the following logic: If Dodgy really was protown, then we can assume his blowup was, in fact, a blowup, and not a ploy. If Dodgy was blowing up as town, I'd think he'd go for the "I told you so" sentiment sooner than the calculated lie-that-helps scum - as angry as he was, I don't see Dodgy having the foresight to try and draw out a counterclaim.

In the mean time, CES has been making 1 sentence posts, which seems to me like an attempt to lie low until the suspicion of Dodgy has diffused. That's certainly what I would do if I were replacing into Dodgy's position as scum. As town, I'd be willing to put my neck on the line a bit more to scumhunt.

dom:inic/IH

I got a good vibe from dom:inic's somewhat sparse posting. He took sides quite clearly in the posts he made, which makes me forgive his lurk - I seriously doubt his lurking, despite being active lurking, was an attempt to allow himself to fence-sit.

IH hasn't posted anything of substance yet

Gorckat

Lurked through most of the beginning of the game. Unlike dom's posts, Gorc's posts seem to be deliberately agreeing with the crowd - nobody can look back on the general wave of arguments being made and single Gorckat out to be accused of anything. Which is scummy.

He then turns around and votehops like CRAZY (votes for 4 different people, three of them twice, in the span of 13 posts). Echoes the crowd when asked for reasoning (plus some crap reasoning of his own - generating discussion this late in day 1? C'mon). He then accuses Thorgot of lurking, after doing it himself for the first half of the game. Has crappy reasons for not voting CES ("What if he was town?"). In a particularly hypocritical post, he goes from playing the n00b card to saying he's learned from experience that votehopping is effective. Glorckat has twirked my scumdar quite a bit as well.

Eh, it's late. I'll finish up analysis of the other players later. More to come.

In the mean time,

UNVOTE (if voting), VOTE: CES

. CES has done nothing to make up for Dodgy's extreme scuminess, and honestly, he should be the frontrunner here.

[IH]

Alright, I'm going to respond to things as I see them, even if I'm repeating others.

I have to agree with Dodgy on this one, while promoting discussion at this point is what we need to do, liberal use of the FOS would be my preference to willy-nilly bandwagonning, especially to put someone halfway to lynch before we have had any kind of discussion at all seems reckless. Though I see him in no danger I am also going to remove my random vote Unvote: Superstring91 until we have more discussion.

and then, anyone who hammers is almost certainly scum, Dodgy should have known that at least.

FoS:Dodgy

Here is what I meant... It is day 1 page 2... I understand we don't have much to go on at the moment but I have seen many times when a careless early bandwagon got out of control and the scum were able to mislynch and cover it up the next day... I have seen this from experienced players and inexperienced players so all I was saying is that we need to moderate the bandwagons and not let them get too big unintentionally

If I would have been here when this was made, I would have asked for examples, just for a read.

Not to mention it is impossible to control a bandwagon. Any player can enlarge the bandwagon, and if town or scum don't believe what you said is valid, they're going to add on votes anyway.

Iv'e heard some real crap in my time but that has to be some of the best LOL.
Also, the fact that you then voted me just adds to my suspicions about you.
You throw your votes around too easily.
This is often the game play of scum as when it comes to jumping onto a band wagon, they can use the defense that they have flippently voted all game.

Dodgy, you were on page 3 of this game. Votes are going to be pretty flippant for a while.

Random voting came in after a few months of the games invention.
It wasn't a planned thing, it just caught on as it was quite dreary just saying Hi.
Once random votes have been placed (which is merely a ritual) then often people unvote and then FOS for a day or two until one or more players get a stronger hunch and vote or scum decide to jump onto someones back. Having said that, any player is free to act as they wish.

No no no, FoS is too loose for most. Votes are usually how it starts out. FoS's are mainly for when you have your vote on someone you don't want to move it to, or that's how I use it.

By not unvoting, in effect you are saying that you support the wagon that formed after your random vote. Just because your vote was random when you put it on, doesn't mean that it stays that way; It should be viewed the same as the other contributors to the wagon. Pretending otherwise is sneaky.

This is untrue, unless an actual case springs up, and there is real danger in him being lynched.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you have only been playing for a couple of weeks and being privy to all members lists and their IP addresses, I can see that you havn't been a player before that date under a different name, so I ask again, are you really experienced enough to make such a statement?

Quit trying to use your experience as a tool to convince people of a case. We do have a wiki you know. Plus, Mafiascum isn't the only site that people can play mafia on. Just because you are experienced on this particular site doesn't mean you are exempt from others claims. This was not justifiable.

unvote (if voting), Vote:Dodgy

Plus I hate elitism.

I'm not rattled at all. I agree that discussion has to take place and this certainly got it going but I think some people are taking my comments rather more seriously than they need to be taken.
@ Dasquian, I'm guessing your voting me because you think I'm scum? Well just for the record, I'm not.
As for my

move to discredit The Fonz's provenance as a mafia player
I was under no circumstances trying to discredit him as a player in any way, just merely asking if his "Classic scumtell" comment could be justified with only a couple of weeks under his belt on this site.
Anyway, I have said my bit and discussion has started. Keep your votes on me if you like but I will have the last laugh.

1.That was the lamest defense ever.
2.Way to backpedal, you were clearly challenging him on that point with your experience, along with your comments about if he played on another site, and you were sure on who was who.

Quit it with your Scumtells and just play the game mate!
Youre forgetting one other reason why someone claims Town, because they are Town! LOL

That's pretty much the essence of mafia..... looking for tells, and you forget when some claims town, it's either because their town... or scum! LAWL!

There is a VERY good chance that we have 3 Scum in this game and my guess is that you've all be outed in day 1.
I think the 3 scum are The Fonz, Dasquian and superstring91.
All 3 of you know that I'm not scum and thats why you are all going in for the kill and to get people onside.
If however you do manage this, please town, remember the mob!
As for your scumtells The Fonz, I hope for your sake you are scum because if by small chance that youre not, youre very bad at reading this game.

Mischaracterization. You've made them out to be three people who are attacking you for no reason and are doing it irrationally, but you don't even mention the possibility that one or two of them are scum. Or that they don't even know you're town (which I doubt at this point) because SK's are common in mini regulars.

Not only that, he never even addresses their concerns, he's just attacking them in an OMGUS way.

Thats very true most of the time Southpaw but when everyone starts to presume such a thing is when the dinamics of the game can change and scum can do the most obvious things and people just say, nah, thats far too obvious.
Thats the fun of the game, you never know who is telling the truth or not, not for sure anyway.

Hmmmm, didn't you just make a post that said "When someone claims they are town, that means they are town?"

i have to agree. i dont think pointing out scumtells is a great idea right now keep those ideas to yourself, and maybe analyze them later.

Why? I have said this before, and I'll say it again.

Mafia is a game of an informed minority versus an uninformed majority. A faction wins when they become the informed majority. Town's object is to become informed (find scum), scum's object is to become the majority (kill town).

So, unless you have power role information, if you are town you should not with hold any information, as that furthers the town's objective of becoming informed.

About Classic Scum tells. Whenever you use them, they should be explained I believe. The only reason you should ever hold it against someone is if they just say it, and stick a vote on someone. (I personally spot appeal to emotion alot and point it out)


I like Kilem's post 82

I'm not sure of Eletriar's post 94, Panicky is viewed as scummy usually, not to mention how he tried to throw his weight of experience around.

Hi people, sorry for not posting but I've just gotten out of Hospital.
To The Fonz, I think I have answered your questions fully.
I claimed myself town and I agree with whoever said, its an insignificant thing to do (or words to that effect) but I also laid a few hints in with my posts. Its a shame that I need to point this out again, as its really not good for the town to do so but it all helps in the learning for newish players.
Anyway, I've read the thread and I'm still a little concerned at the players that hav'nt posted much.
Hopefully will be able to post Tomorrow.

Why point out breadcrumbs so early? Not to mention, Fonz's arguments were not irrational, and breadcrumbs really do mean NOTHING, especially if you point them out in the early game.

P.S To The Fonz, go back and read my posts, if you're not scum and you know how to read into this game like you claim to, with all your "scumtell expretise" LOL, then get off my ***king back!
If youre Town, you need a good kick up the arse for pushing me into what amounts to a role claim.
If you really were as ofait with this game as you like to portrait, as town, you would have picked up on all the "so" obvious hints I have given and packed up your crap.
I can only conclude that you are either bullshitting about your Knowledge/experience of this game or you are Mafia
Therefor...
Vote: The Fonz

Dodgy, no one forced you to claim. You're mischaracterizing the Fonz's intentions. Like i said, Breadcrumbs mean nothing, and the only obvious hints that you layed down were scummy enough to be voted for. You were the only one who proclaimed extreme mafia experience I believe......

I've so FUCKING had enough of inexperienced players that talk fucking shit and try to pretend to everyone, that they know how to play this game with insight, ie The Fonz.

Instead of attacking the Fonz, why didn't you answer his arguments? It was pointless to even play if you're not going to listen and actually play the games...

I only joined this game because my fellow creators/friends, Jeep, mathcam and MEMe convinced me to.
I thougfht this was a mini with no theme, not a newbie with a certain pereson that talks bollocks!
I quit and I can because I set this fucking site up, co-wrote the "Wikki" that people keep refering to and thought that I would be in a game with players that had the intelligence to read between the lines.
Here goes peeps....
I am/was The Doctor

You pointlessly claim, and then complain because you came under some heat from a player with rational arguments?

Now listen up, yes I've given up and its its really not good for the town but I thought, being in a mini game,which by the way, was my origional concept, that the far majority of players would have experience.
Town listen...... either The Fonz is full of shit or he is Mafia! My guess, he's both.
Have fun and next time you see me in a game, make sure you know how to fucking play the thing!
I'm not refereing to the majority of players in this game but just to those that claim to have knowledge yet refer to "my Wikki" which I sat down and wrote all those years back, for back up.
The Wikki was never set up to be a bench mark for quotation, just a point of reference for people to use as they joined the game as a new player.
Last post.

I hate to say it, but Dodgy is a MORON. Seriously, he got mad over a RATIONAL case, and just tried to flaunt his experience instead of actually using it.
I see how Eletriar tried to get the game started back in post 122

There has to be a serious motion to lynch CES, though. LynchAllLiars. I don't know about anyone else, but I would like to see CES genuinely claim here.

Now this warrants an

FoS

I think. If that's not CES's real claim, you don't push for the real one from a replacement.

Lynch All Liars has it's place. This is not one of them.
I think this was more Fonz following a meta he's heard instead of a scummy action trying to out a power role.

Dodgy probably claimed Doc, so his role would get killed on night 1 so his actual role would be taken out of the game.

FoS:Sweeny

I think.

Dasquian is protown IMO

I'm not sure of The Fonz's obstinance on the point of CES.....

But the only situation in which that seems to have us coming out ahead is if Dodgy/CES was a townie, lying about being a doctor, which is the precise situation for which LAL was created.

Actually, LAL was probably created to make telling the truth a protown action and lying an antitown action. That way, telling the truth is encouraged, and town becomes the informed majority (win condition) quicker.

You know what? Neither do I. It's supposed to have been a trivial bit of flippancy, but I was wrong to assume that dead doctor == scum Dodgy/CES. As I've been saying, Dodgy could have been pro-town and lied about being the doctor. So I retract that. However, I would not like to be in CES' shoes tomorrow if someone else dies overnight and is the doctor.

I disagree. Dodgy could have claimed doc for a number of reasons (Mad scum trying to clear his replacement, bitter town trying to get killed, SK with a safe claim to go ahead and use before he leaves)

I agree with Pete that Superstring looked a little opportunistic in post 207.

FoS:Kilem

who was clearly watching the game, but didn't post at all. She immediately responded when Pete brought it up.

FoS:Gork

for his post 271.

I'm really tempted to edit that last post to take out the "off"

<3

The Kilem wagon looks weird.....It seems to have sprang out of nowhere.
Nanooks feelings seem to echo mine, except for CES's claim retraction.

Overall, I believe that there has been an underlying scumminess I've felt from all of SweenyTodd's posts, plus I most definitely did not agree with Inhim about the Fonz. Yes, the Fonz may have been wrong about some things, but he wasn't necessarily scummy in his arguments.

The closest thing was persuing the claim for CES from the lynch all liars meta, and based on posts I've seen from the Fonz in another game or two, he seems to use metas more.

unvote, Vote:InhimshallIbe

[Thestatusquo]

Off the mark: 1 (ces)

Kilmentator: 5 (Pete d, off the mark, inhim, superstring gorckat)

Eletriar 1 (the fonz)
inhim: 2 (Daquian IH)
CES: 1 (Pie)

[Off the Mark]

Man, IH is now looking scummy to me after that argument. Perhaps I am just paranoid. Dodgy was clearly certifiably nuts, so I don't know how much analysis of his posts is helpful. From my read-through, I got the feeling he was just plain pissed off about the suspicion he was getting from Fonz and Dasquain. Now, if he was mafia, why he would he get pissed off enough to quit the game over being "found out"? It doesn't make sense to get pissed off over your opponent's good play unless you are 5 years old. The scenario of Dodgy being pro-town and getting pissed about Fonz's "scumtrap" seems more logical to me. I could be totally wrong, like I said it is tough to analyze the postings of a crazy man. If he is scum, then he is INCREDIBLY immature and I guess I just like to give people a little more credit than that - even people who are nuts.

It also doesn't help, from my perspective, that IH is defending other people who have tripped my scumdar, Nanook and Kilem.

FOS: IH

[gorckat]

Gorckat

Lurked through most of the beginning of the game. Unlike dom's posts, Gorc's posts seem to be deliberately agreeing with the crowd - nobody can look back on the general wave of arguments being made and single Gorckat out to be accused of anything. Which is scummy.

He then turns around and votehops like CRAZY (votes for 4 different people, three of them twice, in the span of 13 posts). Echoes the crowd when asked for reasoning (plus some crap reasoning of his own - generating discussion this late in day 1? C'mon). He then accuses Thorgot of lurking, after doing it himself for the first half of the game. Has crappy reasons for not voting CES ("What if he was town?"). In a particularly hypocritical post, he goes from playing the n00b card to saying he's learned from experience that votehopping is effective. Glorckat has twirked my scumdar quite a bit as well.

1) Lurking: Had a week w/o access at work and too much going on at home to post, which was during the Dodgy drama. Also had several days out of town early-mid May.
2) Nope- I can't be accused of much...except not being accusable. Is this a "too-townie" attack?
3) I explained my vote hops (and touch on it again in a sec) as best I could in the last post.
4) Generating discussion late- yep. Not much was happening, there was no deadline and no wagon and thus little info being put out there. I also explained, iirc, why I chose CES (lack of anything since I had earlier explained my willingness to give him a pass)
5) Yes- I'm a noob. I'm gonna learn from pretty much

every

game I'm in or will be in now and in the near future. And I didn't say vote hopping was effective. I said voting a person was an effective way to get questions answered when they'd been avoided.

Wasn't I the first to vote kilm a couple pages back? And I'm on kilm again again, awaiting answers that (at least when I started this ~30 minutes ago, stupid work) haven't been answered on the whole Fonz following.

I imagine kilm is also under your suspicion for lurking and following, etc, etc?

Why does dom get a pass? I took a side on CES. I said "Don't lynch" at first and still do at the moment.

[Pie_is_good]

1) Lurking: Had a week w/o access at work and too much going on at home to post, which was during the Dodgy drama. Also had several days out of town early-mid May.

I don't consider Lurking suspicious in any way; this was just meant as a comment about your play. Sorry for the confusion.

2) Nope- I can't be accused of much...except not being accusable. Is this a "too-townie" attack?

No, it's not. The

reason

you're not accusable is not that you haven't done anything scummy - it's that you've yet to come up with an original idea of your own. Following the crowd like you did implies that you are unwilling to risk your own "safety" in the game to find some scum. And

that

's scummy.

3) I explained my vote hops (and touch on it again in a sec) as best I could in the last post.

The fact that you move votes around so readily makes it seem like you're looking for

any

bandwagon that will catch on - not neccesarily the correct one.

4) Generating discussion late- yep. Not much was happening, there was no deadline and no wagon and thus little info being put out there. I also explained, iirc, why I chose CES (lack of anything since I had earlier explained my willingness to give him a pass)

You chose pretty much everyone; not just CES. There was plenty of material to work with; you didn't need to create more. That seems like pretty artifical reasoning.

5) Yes- I'm a noob. I'm gonna learn from pretty much

every

game I'm in or will be in now and in the near future. And I didn't say vote hopping was effective. I said voting a person was an effective way to get questions answered when they'd been avoided.

I didn't accuse you of "being a noob," I accused you of "playing the noob card." The fact that you aren't experienced is good to know, and I'll take it into account when analyzing, but it's in no way an excuse to act scummy.

Wasn't I the first to vote kilm a couple pages back? And I'm on kilm again again, awaiting answers that (at least when I started this ~30 minutes ago, stupid work) haven't been answered on the whole Fonz following.

I imagine kilm is also under your suspicion for lurking and following, etc, etc?

Why does dom get a pass? I took a side on CES. I said "Don't lynch" at first and still do at the moment.

I haven't really analyzed Kilm yet, but yes, the actions you describe would, in theory, be scummy. Dom gets a pass because his posting didn't come off as a deliberate attempt to shield himself from accusations, while yours did.

[gorckat]

Well, then...pardon my moutain of your molehill :p

I tend towards addressing any concern out my way and didn't want to leave things glossed over.

And I need to review my stuff on thorgot and kilm- I really thougt I'd 'led' on those two, at least somewhat.