433: Dry, bland, generic mafia: Game Over

[Thestatusquo]

Ces has not responded to a prod, and I am currently looking for a replacement.

[Thestatusquo]

MRBUDDYLEE REPLACES COGITO ERGO SUM

[MrBuddyLee]

[NanookTheWolf]

Unvote: Mr BuddyLee

I've seen CES check the thread on multiple occasions, this totally frustrates the hell out of me ...

... Again we're in waiting mode.

[MrBuddyLee]

vote: Nanook

before I fully reread. Too impatient.

[pete d]

unvote

/waits

[inHimshallibe]

Claims shouldn't make or break your arguments, so I won't claim - if you think I should be lynched, then you think I should be lynched, right?

Wrong. Claims quite often DO make or break arguments - claims provide much more solid and testable facts than post analysis.

I'm not doubting that they

do

. I'm saying that they shouldn't, and if you're attacks on me are so flimsy that the hint of a claim will knock them over, I've got a problem with it.

[gorckat]

Better to be in active waiting than passive waiting. At least we have the prospect of something happening now.

[MrBuddyLee]

Wow, looks like I got the hotseat. I skimmed and I now understand what's happened, but I don't have specifics yet upon which to base firm suspicions. A few thoughts though to help get things rolling again:

1) Dodgy wouldn't have claimed as scum. It's extremely unlikely that he was this mad at a scumpartner for harrassing him, correct? So if he was scum with town harrassing him he'd want to screw over town with his claim. But by claiming doc he would have put himself and his scumteam in an awkward position and wouldn't hurt the town at all via his action. Fonz, if you're town you should have recognized this. So yeah, Dodgy was town pissed off at someone whose alignment he did not know, and he claimed something to shut them the hell up because he was pissed at them.

2) CES stepped in and wanted to undo whatever Dodgy had done, so he retracted the claim. I think it's the logical action for town to take for sure, and I think scum would be 50-50 stick with the doc claim or retract. So CES retracting is the common sense move either way, and his lurking is a sign that he's CES, not that he's scum. Since I'm town, I think the reason CES retracted is so that if there's a doc in this game, he wouldn't commit suicide by counterclaiming, and his protection choice wouldn't get screwed up by this claim.

3) Anyone who didn't express suspicion of Dodgy is suspect. Anyone over the top on Dodgy is suspect. I'll read to see who's who later.

[Off the Mark]

MBL - so you are claiming "town but not doc"? I find this very hard to believe.

[The Fonz]

1) Dodgy wouldn't have claimed as scum. It's extremely unlikely that he was this mad at a scumpartner for harrassing him, correct? So if he was scum with town harrassing him he'd want to screw over town with his claim. But by claiming doc he would have put himself and his scumteam in an awkward position and wouldn't hurt the town at all via his action. Fonz, if you're town you should have recognized this. So yeah, Dodgy was town pissed off at someone whose alignment he did not know, and he claimed something to shut them the hell up because he was pissed at them.

I think I

did

recognise that:

Also to the Fonz,

I think, given that Dodgy's replacement will be basically confirmed town

I didn't see the connection, was there some proof given to Dodgy's claim or is this a WIFOM mafia wouldn't do what he did kind of thing? I just re-read this section so please point me to where you got that because i missed it.

I couldn't see, at the time, why a scummer would claim doc there as a tactic. Plus, he'd been strongly hinting powerrole in the previous three or four posts.

I then go on to explain how CES' withdrawal of the claim rather threw me.

[NanookTheWolf]

Vote: MrBuddyLee

Too much wifom in that post, and still doesn't explain to me anyway the doc bit .. You can say that Dodgy did this, and CES did that, however you're not them, and the actions they took are scummy.

Also, you're basically stating in your post that you're not the doctor, IMO. So with that I give back my vote .. I'd rather make the mistake in lynching a townie, then lynching a doctor, especially when I find you scum.

As for the impatient business, Let's just say that I think that 19 pages of posting is more then enough for the first game and I'd like to have other leads to go on besides the same things I've been dealing with this entire day.

[MrBuddyLee]

If you guys would use your brains and put yourself in the position of town replacing into this position, maybe you'd understand my post better. Instead, you're knee-jerking, leading me to believe you're looking for an easy kill. I'm particularly bothered by the vote from Nanook that comes before any questions or significant thought. Off the Mark also appears not to be thinking through the possibilities here.

Nanook, Mark, what would be the right play for town in this position, in your opinion? Keep in mind that the Dodgy claim wasn't mandated in the least by gamestate, and CES's actions took that into account.

[NanookTheWolf]

The fact is that this all started with Dodgy and hence his actions taken from that. As for you stating something along the lines of looking for an easy kill .. no offense, but 19 pages pretty much lays out the fact that this game hasn't yet had an easy kill.

You make your statement in regards to me knee jerking as if I haven't been leaning towards CES/Dodgy/You being scum the entirety of this game since I too replaced.

What do you mean that CES's actions took into account Dodgy's claim not being mandated. Dodgy claimed Doctor, CES claimed to not claim, and you claim town. What's your point?

I don't know what the right play for town in your position would be, maybe you should take that up with your predecessors for not playing like town.

[MrBuddyLee]

OK, so basically you're a hardass. An irrational townie claimed early, his replacement made the common sense play, and you're going to punish town for it.

Makes perfect sense. As scum.

[Off the Mark]

You want to hear my thoughts? Here they are:

1) Dodgy wouldn't have claimed as scum. It's extremely unlikely that he was this mad at a scumpartner for harrassing him, correct?

Agree so far

So if he was scum with town harrassing him he'd want to screw over town with his claim. But by claiming doc he would have put himself and his scumteam in an awkward position and wouldn't hurt the town at all via his action.

Huh?? No, he would totally dick over the town if he claimed doc and then quit. How would his scumteam be in an awkward position? Scum false claim all the time, how would this be more awkward? If anything, it would be less awkward because the town would be more likely to accept the claim at face value. (as I did, until now)

Fonz, if you're town you should have recognized this. So yeah, Dodgy was town pissed off at someone whose alignment he did not know, and he claimed something to shut them the hell up because he was pissed at them.

Sorry, this makes no sense. If Dodgy was town, and all he wanted to do was hurt the town, he should have claimed scum when he quit. Now there's a head scratcher, eh? I don't see the sense in his claiming doctor to hurt the town. This is actually helpful to the town when another townie claims doctor because it wastes a mafia nightkill on the wrong guy as the scum try to hunt the doc.

I'm not buying your story at all so I'll keep my vote on you.

[MrBuddyLee]

Huh?? No, he would totally dick over the town if he claimed doc and then quit. How would his scumteam be in an awkward position?

Right, over the past two years scum has learned that the winning strategy is to fakeclaim doc day one--works out to their favor the vast majority of the time.

Bullshit. If he's scum, he's just committed suicide in a plain-jane game that almost definitely has a doc. Ask Pie, I'm pretty sure he'll agree the loss of the real doc would be a minimal price to pay for catching a scumbag.

Scum false claim all the time, how would this be more awkward?

When forced. As a last resort. Duh.

[NanookTheWolf]

OK, so basically you're a hardass. An irrational townie claimed early, his replacement made the common sense play, and you're going to punish town for it.

Makes perfect sense. As scum.

Yeah, I am a hard ass I guess, but Why claim doctor and the quit? I think Dodgy doing that was purely scummy in that it could have possibly outed another doc (Speculating that we have one) with a counterclaim which would be something scum easily would do.

You keep saying that CES made the common sense play to me, and as I've stated earlier, I disagree. Coming into the game and just saying that I'm not going to say anything after all of those events took place, and then turn around and not pay any further attention to the game is anything but common sense.

I'm glad that you replaced and that you took the time to read the game, however the events that took place earlier are already set in stone. I don't know what you could say at this point that could change my mind (I know it sounds stubborn).

Also, I'm not punishing the town for Dodgy/CES's mistakes .. They are. Also note that I'm not the only player who thinks that you're scum, there are 5 others on the wagon my friend .. Maybe you should question them as well.

[NanookTheWolf]

Excuse that last line, I got confused with Inhim's wagon for a second ..

There are 3 others on your wagon, not 5 .. and up til you replaced there were 5 total, but Pete_D unvoted.

I'd actually would like to hear from Pete_D, Superstring, and Pie as well in this debate.

I think Pete_D primarily was voting CES in concerning the lurking if I recall correctly, so maybe a word from the other two then I suppose.

[MrBuddyLee]

Also note that I'm not the only player who thinks that you're scum, there are 5 others on the wagon my friend

(oops)

Not caring which wagon is which is a hallmark of scum, fyi. Any port in a storm...

[MrBuddyLee]

You keep saying that CES made the common sense play to me, and as I've stated earlier, I disagree. Coming into the game and just saying that I'm not going to say anything after all of those events took place, and then turn around and not pay any further attention to the game is anything but common sense.

I meant common sense play as far as retracting the doc claim was concerned, since it was irrational and uncalled for in the first place.

As for CES saying nothing helpful and ignoring the game, if you think you have a metagame on him that means he's scum, you're full of it. I think the rest of the experienced players in this game will agree with me--his inactivity means nothing re: his alignment.

[The Fonz]

I'm not experienced, but he basicalyl abandoned a newbie game that he was modding with me in it, at the same time he was lurking here.

I would also say that, if I were replacing in as CES did, I would only retract the doc claim were it false.

I'm quite uncomfortable with OTM's last comment...

[NanookTheWolf]

Me thinking that CES is scum because of the inactivity has only a small added topping to the whole thing .. I originated my thoughts with how Dodgy reacted and yes I'll admit that CES didn't help the situation which still keeps me thinking that he's scum.

You've added on to it with your WIFOM and I'm keeping the vote ...

I knew you would point out my mistake as being scummy (Quite predictable) .. However, I pointed it out before you did and honestly made a mistake which I explained .. You kind of showed up after I was just part of another wagon, and the only reason I was on that wagon is b/c the CES wagon wasn't going anywhere which was where I originally wanted my vote.

Oh and before you say that I I'm vote hopping, Let it be know that the only hopping I've been doing is right back onto you.

[Off the Mark]

I'm quite uncomfortable with OTM's last comment...

Which part is making you uncomfortable? I know I tend to speculate quickly, so maybe I can explain it better.

[Dasquian]

Some bullet-point thoughts:

- MBL's explanation makes sense. It's what I'd have said replacing into the role, which doesn't necessarily make it pro-town, but I do think is logically pretty sound.
- Nanook seems far, far too keen to not let this one go. In particular, I do not like his use of labelling any attempt at justifying play as scummy wifom. At some level, everything is wifom, it's just that some are easier to judge than others.
- I think OtM was right to notice a potential "town but not doc" claim, but that needs some clarification. I'm not sure what I make of it if that is what MBL said, but I'm not sure it was so I'll hold off on that one for now.

I still think the right thing to do is to let Dodgy/CES/MBL see the night through and redress the issue from there. It's unfortunate that CES' complete lurking has basically forced him back into the spotlight, but now we have an active player I don't think much has changed. However, the numbers may well now be different enough now to reopen the issue - but I won't be one of the ones pressuring him today.

I do not want us to forget...

I'm saying that they shouldn't, and if you're attacks on me are so flimsy that the hint of a claim will knock them over, I've got a problem with it.

Nope. I just think you're the most scummy today, and would be happy to lynch you. However it's stupid to lynch someone without hearing out who they are and what they know. It may not save you, but there's no reason not to cooperate (although it looks like you may have a temporary pardon while the focus shifts to MBL). if you

are

town, squirming in the face of a lynch mob wanting a claim doesn't help your case.