NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[Casso the King of Seals]

Spoiler: quotes

Boro seems town feels natural in comments, bubba too he is trying to advance the game pretty naturally as in it doesn't stuck out like a scum sore thumb

Regina we need to talk, Mario too let's have some deep conversations how about that

Notscience is playing around loosely, and super tunnel happy, seems town

Nacho is feeling alright but he controls his tones well so naturalness at this point not a good indicator

I don't remember much about the rest of you, but yeah Regina sticks out with his or her reactions to people calling out her/his name which feels weird

Same with Mario - ffery would say to sort and move on I think

Boro seems town feels natural in comments, bubba too he is trying to advance the game pretty naturally as in it doesn't stuck out like a scum sore thumb

Regina we need to talk, Mario too let's have some deep conversations how about that

Notscience is playing around loosely, and super tunnel happy, seems town

Nacho is feeling alright but he controls his tones well so naturalness at this point not a good indicator

I don't remember much about the rest of you, but yeah Regina sticks out with his or her reactions to people calling out her/his name which feels weird

Same with Mario - ffery would say to sort and move on I think

Interesting. So I stopped posting for a day and the thread becomes much more active. Easy to make the correct conclusion about my posting= - yessiree my posts are unnecessarily spammy haha

Both players in the ns vs. ETL feel natural and townish. both sides are feeling so tunnely in their thought processes, which I expect from ns...whereas ETL's overdefensiveness fits the vibe I recall from 1462.

you guys are on a roll, which is really super awesome yall...keep it up!

also the nachomamma thing whom I have never met, he/she feels very erratic which is an odd choice of playstyle to continue utilizing. bah. Maybe I'm insane for thinking that, but I will look back at other peoples tomorrow. Carry on

Boro seems town feels natural in comments, bubba too he is trying to advance the game pretty naturally as in it doesn't stuck out like a scum sore thumb

Regina we need to talk, Mario too let's have some deep conversations how about that

Notscience is playing around loosely, and super tunnel happy, seems town

Nacho is feeling alright but he controls his tones well so naturalness at this point not a good indicator

I don't remember much about the rest of you, but yeah Regina sticks out with his or her reactions to people calling out her/his name which feels weird

Same with Mario - ffery would say to sort and move on I think

Interesting. So I stopped posting for a day and the thread becomes much more active. Easy to make the correct conclusion about my posting= - yessiree my posts are unnecessarily spammy haha

Both players in the ns vs. ETL feel natural and townish. both sides are feeling so tunnely in their thought processes, which I expect from ns...whereas ETL's overdefensiveness fits the vibe I recall from 1462.

you guys are on a roll, which is really super awesome yall...keep it up!

also the nachomamma thing whom I have never met, he/she feels very erratic which is an odd choice of playstyle to continue utilizing. bah. Maybe I'm insane for thinking that, but I will look back at other peoples tomorrow. Carry on

NotBert, what did you think of my latest reads?

246 Chosen redux wrt low hanging juicy fruit leftovers

/phone

Boro seems town feels natural in comments, bubba too he is trying to advance the game pretty naturally as in it doesn't stuck out like a scum sore thumb

Regina we need to talk, Mario too let's have some deep conversations how about that

Notscience is playing around loosely, and super tunnel happy, seems town

Nacho is feeling alright but he controls his tones well so naturalness at this point not a good indicator

I don't remember much about the rest of you, but yeah Regina sticks out with his or her reactions to people calling out her/his name which feels weird

Same with Mario - ffery would say to sort and move on I think

Interesting. So I stopped posting for a day and the thread becomes much more active. Easy to make the correct conclusion about my posting= - yessiree my posts are unnecessarily spammy haha

Both players in the ns vs. ETL feel natural and townish. both sides are feeling so tunnely in their thought processes, which I expect from ns...whereas ETL's overdefensiveness fits the vibe I recall from 1462.

you guys are on a roll, which is really super awesome yall...keep it up!

also the nachomamma thing whom I have never met, he/she feels very erratic which is an odd choice of playstyle to continue utilizing. bah. Maybe I'm insane for thinking that, but I will look back at other peoples tomorrow. Carry on

NotBert, what did you think of my latest reads?

246 Chosen redux wrt low hanging juicy fruit leftovers

/phone

Yeah I let go of my confused reads one by one

what's your impression of nacho? gut leans town but I'm not sure

Boro seems town feels natural in comments, bubba too he is trying to advance the game pretty naturally as in it doesn't stuck out like a scum sore thumb

Regina we need to talk, Mario too let's have some deep conversations how about that

Notscience is playing around loosely, and super tunnel happy, seems town

Nacho is feeling alright but he controls his tones well so naturalness at this point not a good indicator

I don't remember much about the rest of you, but yeah Regina sticks out with his or her reactions to people calling out her/his name which feels weird

Same with Mario - ffery would say to sort and move on I think

Interesting. So I stopped posting for a day and the thread becomes much more active. Easy to make the correct conclusion about my posting= - yessiree my posts are unnecessarily spammy haha

Both players in the ns vs. ETL feel natural and townish. both sides are feeling so tunnely in their thought processes, which I expect from ns...whereas ETL's overdefensiveness fits the vibe I recall from 1462.

you guys are on a roll, which is really super awesome yall...keep it up!

also the nachomamma thing whom I have never met, he/she feels very erratic which is an odd choice of playstyle to continue utilizing. bah. Maybe I'm insane for thinking that, but I will look back at other peoples tomorrow. Carry on

NotBert, what did you think of my latest reads?

246 Chosen redux wrt low hanging juicy fruit leftovers

/phone

Yeah I let go of my confused reads one by one

what's your impression of nacho? gut leans town but I'm not sure

Nacho's less paranoid with his reads this game, I think I remarked in this game how this game reminds me of Nacho in Mini 1460 where he gave off this apathetic vibe that almost saved his life N1 but they killed him before he could wake up adn smell the roses

Boro seems town feels natural in comments, bubba too he is trying to advance the game pretty naturally as in it doesn't stuck out like a scum sore thumb

Regina we need to talk, Mario too let's have some deep conversations how about that

Notscience is playing around loosely, and super tunnel happy, seems town

Nacho is feeling alright but he controls his tones well so naturalness at this point not a good indicator

I don't remember much about the rest of you, but yeah Regina sticks out with his or her reactions to people calling out her/his name which feels weird

Same with Mario - ffery would say to sort and move on I think

Interesting. So I stopped posting for a day and the thread becomes much more active. Easy to make the correct conclusion about my posting= - yessiree my posts are unnecessarily spammy haha

Both players in the ns vs. ETL feel natural and townish. both sides are feeling so tunnely in their thought processes, which I expect from ns...whereas ETL's overdefensiveness fits the vibe I recall from 1462.

you guys are on a roll, which is really super awesome yall...keep it up!

also the nachomamma thing whom I have never met, he/she feels very erratic which is an odd choice of playstyle to continue utilizing. bah. Maybe I'm insane for thinking that, but I will look back at other peoples tomorrow. Carry on

NotBert, what did you think of my latest reads?

246 Chosen redux wrt low hanging juicy fruit leftovers

/phone

Yeah I let go of my confused reads one by one

what's your impression of nacho? gut leans town but I'm not sure

Nacho's less paranoid with his reads this game, I think I remarked in this game how this game reminds me of Nacho in Mini 1460 where he gave off this apathetic vibe that almost saved his life N1 but they killed him before he could wake up adn smell the roses

Ok I'm back, quick skimming makes me think ETL was town and Bert is scum.

Unvote
Vote: Startfromtheheart

Seriously, ugh. More posts coming later. I am PUMPED UP now

With my Boro vote, I was like hey Bubba made a good point, so I'm gonna NOT sheep a townread for once and go with what I'm thinking. I told myself this morning I was going to get to this game tonight and blow you away with my love.

Forget it, I'm going to give everything now SINCE you think I'm scum for whatever reason

I'm NOT going HEY LET'S JUMP ON ETL or NS

I really don't have any real solid reads

You've been absent for most of this game and V/LA, comments now on the game please! Get out of your hidey hole.............

<Ffery/GIF> *seems* super duper town but ffery makes me paranoid, but BUT BUT ETL gives me roses and all kinds of perfumey smells I like that

<Neonizer, Marcrell> newb town

<notscience> territunnel town

<Mara, mario, regina> - lurker don't know, regina reminds me of Yiley 1429, newb passes be darned

Boro's antics are so in-your-face, my reads here aren't developed at all yet, I'd go with

<Bubba, Nacho> confused, yada-babada, and did I mention I can't read nacho or ffery well because you know it's true

<Boro> started out feeling natural but has gotten worse =/ and is fencesitting

Sakura I *think* your audacious vote on me is town. This way of voting me is not funny!!!

Compare the read he has on me here to the read he had here (quotes repeated like crazy because iPad does weird shit like that, it's why I am generally forced to buldermar). His read on me there was hedgy but clearly wanted to read me as town, references were direct and not nearly as varied, seriously seriously seriously lacking in paranoia.

[Casso the King of Seals]

*shrug* tbh, i can't think of any things i do as town that i wouldn't also potentially do as scum (and i think most of the difference between my scum and town play comes from interactions, and it's not as black and white as "i do this as town and not as scum"), so i dunno what you're expecting here and it feels like you're just using this as an excuse to call me a scum read

This makes sense as far as the whole "interactions are what makes me town" bit goes. I don't see when I would need "an excuse" to call you a scumread, though.

you supposedly have a scum read on BRO, don't you? or at least he's not a townread? this statement doesn't make sense.

He's a weak scumread, don't really think that he's scum.

Also it seems you've never pushed me early, so how would you know what quality of reactions you'd get from me if you did?

I think you start slow. You don't think you start slow. How does that make me scum?

I've pushed you late and I didn't get a fantastic quality of reactions from you. I can't see me getting a better quality of reactions from pushing you early.

I think SSK is scum.

I do not think we should lynch him today.

I agree with Cabd that too many people hold this viewpoint in order for it to be a good idea anymore.
SSK probably isn't surviving until tomorrow regardless of what happens.

It wouldn't be outrageous for him to sacrifice himself to save casso, if indeed both are on the same scum team.

There's not many universes where I would need saving at this point in time.

Vote: SSK

[Casso the King of Seals]

Sometimes things just work that way, Muffin.

[Casso the King of Seals]

If SSK somehow flips town this wagon needs a good look at. Those townies who are voting for him, it's premature ejaculation, pure and simple. The only reason I can think of to lynch him today is in case he's actually scum RB'er faking doc, but no-one is arguing this, and more to the point, he's not fighting his lynch in a manner that makes me think he's important to scum. If he's scum, then good chance he's being bussed to take heat off other scum. And if he's town, this is a fistpump lynch for scum.

I do not like this lynch.

I believe that if there is a gunsmith and a doctor in this game, then scum will have some method of countering it that's better than a mafia doctor (likely a roleblocker). If scum have a roleblocker, then they will probably block SSK-town and kill you (pretty much the same actions they would take if SSK-scum). This means that leaving him alive will do nothing for the town since he's likely to be lynched anyways and won't be able to use his night action. I would be all for leaving him alive if he showed some semblance of towniness, but he hasn't. At all.

[Casso the King of Seals]

And yeah I realise we've been through this nacho, I'm now reading the exchange we had at the time. You argue that you're not all that assertive. Well actually you are. And even so, it's not a question of assertiveness, it's about mindset. It feels like it comes from scum, not town. Every time I try to interpret that comment, it feels like a scumslip.

I never said that I wasn't assertive; I said that I'm not as assertive about my own towniness as others are. Scumtells are things that don't always show up in scum play and sometimes show up in town play; for example, being lucky and apathetic day 1 IS a scumtell for me (since it happens more often when I am scum). Does that mean that every time it happens I am scum? No, but it is still a scumtell for me.

Picking up on crumbs during the day play is something that I'm not sure is a scumtell for me. It certainly is possible; generally when I PR hunt as scum, I do it primarily during the night and I am not looking for as many subtleties as I am as town because I am looking more for mislynches and not alignments. Does that translate into me picking up on more crumbs as town? No, I don't think so; I've shown myself to be blind to those sorts of things as town because I don't care about them so much.

I could see your problem if this my response to someone calling me scum was "no, I don't think I'm scum" but that was a response to a specific tell and nothing more.

[Casso the King of Seals]

We should have lynched someone thirty pages ago.

Stuff like this I don't like either. It's not the first time casso has been talking in this way, looking for faster wagons etc. Did scum ever get quicklynched on d1?

This was a Thor post. He says things like this regardless of alignment.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I don't even feel like I want to debate Desp.
His case is silly - anyone who thinks otherwise can tell me why.

This doesn't much feel like town nacho either. I wouldn't expect him to pass the onus onto others when it comes to defending himself against a case he deems silly.

You are correct; this is not town Nacho.
This is town Thor.

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I don't believe nacho subscribes to the idea of long d1 being good for scum. Was is xenoblade where he was ridiculously active throughout the day and thriving? He was really in the groove. Why is he so against a long d1 here?

I"m pretty sure that's because it was a thor-post.

Though scum-nacho does like quicklynches. And town-nacho sometimes is in a rush, too. This game is an example of town-Nacho wanting to get the lynches done and dusted: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=33202

yup

[Casso the King of Seals]

PLEASE ABORT.
Geists, I think you have chosen poorly.
First and most importantly, SSK is NOT likely to flip scum for behavioral reasons I shall explain when we have more time.
His doctor claim has gone uncountered. I find it unlikely we have no protective role.
Doctor is valuable here because we have a lot of other roles claimed AND we're on evens with our vig dead.
The high likelihood scum will shoot him if we leave him alone is a factor as well.

I don't agree with Nati on this, but I'm finding the various actions and reactions to this wagon quite interesting.

Where do you think we should go today?

[Casso the King of Seals]

No. The push on Nero Cain became a bus eventually, but when DrPepper was lynched the push to bus was mostly pushed by me and he followed along because DrPepper was getting lynched with or without him.

ftr this drops my muffin town read into a null to null-scum read then.

The initial town read was based on him usually hard-bussing his scum mates as scum, since he'd done that in every scum game of his that I'd seen. That said, if he has a recent pattern of not doing that, then that's less valid, and the apathy could easily be coming from the place of muffin liking town more than scum.

His complaint to me in touhou (or marketplace QT, both scum QTs seem to blend together) was that he used to like town a lot more than scum, but was starting to like scum more because he didn't have to sort through all of the VIs. His explanations for apathy (noise, Christmas season, etc) make sense and are perfectly valid, but it's still not what I expect townMuffin to deliver and he continues not to deliver.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Also it seems you've never pushed me early, so how would you know what quality of reactions you'd get from me if you did?

I think you start slow. You don't think you start slow. How does that make me scum?

I've pushed you late and I didn't get a fantastic quality of reactions from you. I can't see me getting a better quality of reactions from pushing you early.

Did I say it makes you Scum?

Hmm.

If he's scum, then good chance he's being bussed to take heat off other scum.

PREACH IT

You heavily implied it.

[Casso the King of Seals]

casso, why do you think scum aren't seizing on your mislynch?

Every time I have been mislynched, I have been mislynched by town. Scum generally stay the fuck off my wagon because there's a strong chance I will be able to turn the wagon around and that leaves them in a horrible position. Look at the lynch fervor in Xenogears against me: muffin, Mastin, Ghostlin, Andy, BRO were all the main pushers: scum were nowhere to be found.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Cabd claimed masons with you, called you town for ~vague meta reasons~ for a while, then retracted the fake claim, then reiterated the claim. It's pretty clear you two are masons together unless you're not actually masons together, in which case you should probably say something.

Why the fuck would you say this.

If he's not the other mason, the town play would be to pretend to be the other mason until the round before expected LyLo, when the real mason would come forward.

It's horribly, horribly, horribly obvious by now.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Generic, I haven't been hiding for a moment this game; my thought processes are out in the open and if you need a point to engage me on, engage me on my reads. Which ones do you disagree with?

[Casso the King of Seals]

@ENTIRE THREAD - A CrAzY challenge! Let's try to get an L-1 wagon *before* we hit 100 pages! Can we do it!?!?! Who the heck knows!!!!

This post is surely nacho (it's been trimmed). Thor doesn't use smileys, nacho is more laid back than thor, this seems to show that nacho is also in favour of getting d1 over with. Casso, please confirm who posted this, thanks.

It was Thor: I'm a massive fan of dirty language and wouldn't be caught dead saying "heck" instead of fuck.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I can't read Cephrir worth a shit.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I am incredibly hungover and not able to rework that read right now, but Cephrir snowed the living hell out of me in uPick, and it turns out the major reason I was reading Cephrir as town here (namely, his reaction to me here) was completely wrong and completely faked.

[Casso the King of Seals]

SSK's target claim is probably the toniest thing he's done all game.

[Casso the King of Seals]

For casso to considered town, we have to assume SSK is town.

No. This is a fundamentally wrong assumption that you've created out of nowhere because you think scum will pile on the moment that some sort of town force forms around me; this isn't always the case. Your current case includes me coaching SSK to act intentionally scummy (instead of just bussing him outright which is what normal people do) in order to get heat off me and me somehow being scum because my wagon isn't larger (and then once my wagon gets larger, will I no longer be scum? or...). I mentioned that sometimes my wagon looks dumb because scum hate jumping on my wagon since my wagon never actually goes through in the end, but here is a concrete example:

[6] Nachomamma8 (zMuffinMan, Ghostlin, TiphaineDeath, Andrius, Mac, waynegg)
[2] Aj The Epic (Nachomamma8, Faster Than Light)

I was town, it took 8 to lynch.
Guess how many scum were on my wagon?

[Casso the King of Seals]

a town flip would not be a disaster because his wagon is so interesting.

What would a Nacho town flip tell you?

[Casso the King of Seals]

SSK's target claim is probably the toniest thing he's done all game.

It might be if he didn't then object to geists leading.

He said geists would be a bad town leader because Natirasha is impulsive or some shit; this doesn't contradict the "geists is an asset" statement.

I am incredibly hungover and not able to rework that read right now, but Cephrir snowed the living hell out of me in uPick, and it turns out the major reason I was reading Cephrir as town here (namely, his reaction to me here) was completely wrong and completely faked.

So, what is your read on him now? Do you have any meta-based pointers?

I lean town on him now.

His old meta markers used to have to do with his aggression, with his odd perception of himself (he's a bit too hard on himself as town), and with the occasional observation that he makes that is something that's a bit off-the-wall but not complete bullshit. He has proven himself capable of faking all of those things pretty easily (although I note that his aggression always comes back while he's in stride as scum so that meta tell is still applicable when looking at long ISOs), but I'm working through his Ice and Fire ISO and noting a couple flaws before I do my big write up on it. For now, I'm much more interested in what you end up figuring out on your own.

[Casso the King of Seals]

a town flip would not be a disaster because his wagon is so interesting.

What would a Nacho town flip tell you?

That SSK is probably town too, and thus doc. Also, that BRO, generic and bert all look dodgy for sheeping me as I tried to muster up votes for you.

I still don't understand your "SSK is also probably town" reasoning.
That's all the information you have from my wagon? How many scum in BRO, Generic, and Bert?

[Casso the King of Seals]

The "I think Geists is a great asset to the town but not a good choice for town leader / what masons?" line of thought sounds genuine.
It particularly sounds :Unguided: so I'll be impressed if it turns out to be a scum-QT-product.

This is the only bit of your case that I agree with; everything else is pretty much completely fakeable.

[Casso the King of Seals]

[6] Nachomamma8 (zMuffinMan, Ghostlin, TiphaineDeath, Andrius, Mac, waynegg)
[2] Aj The Epic (Nachomamma8, Faster Than Light)

I was town, it took 8 to lynch.
Guess how many scum were on my wagon?

I also still want you to talk about this. If you want context, here's a little:
The night before this day, mastin2 (who was one of my biggest detractors) was killed during the night. The person I was voting was someone who claimed bulletproof after a vig shot him.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I also still want you to talk about this. If you want context, here's a little:

I'm not talking about that for a reason. You've surely been mislynched with scum on your wagon, showing me that it can be all town means nothing other than it can happen, which I already knew.

I figure SSK is town if you are because he is easier to lynch than you are. I suspect the only reason SSK is not already dead is because I objected so strongly.

He's probably easier to lynch than I am because I contribute things and he doesn't, not because of anything that has to do with our specific alignments.

In fact it's weird that instead of assessing your wagon to decide who the scums are on it, you're showing me that you've been killed off by all town before. You're spending your time trying to distract me when you should be scum hunting.

I'm not "distracting you", I'm shutting down your case on me because it gets any farther.
Stand behind your case and defend it; stop trying to pick at how I'm defending myself and instead try sorting me.

[Casso the King of Seals]

casso = town, ssk = scum - why did your wagon collapse in favour of ssk?

Casso the King of Seals (6) - goodmorning, DOMO, Norlkaz, BROseidon, Generic, Bert
MafiaSSK (5) - geists, Desperado, Casso the King of Seals, Sakura Hana, Cephrir

[Casso the King of Seals]

casso = town, ssk = town - I can see ssk being scum's preferred mislynch due to his claim

i also don't see why scum would want to mislynch a lame duck doctor SSK over me

[Casso the King of Seals]

nacho, SSK was at L-2 when it collapsed, and you're showing me the state of votes now?

And they'd want a lame duck doc dead because there's an outed gunsmith operating.

You're not this bad nacho. You reaching hard here.

I notice that there wasn't really a wagon on me until your latest push; the 4 man wagon earlier consisted of goodmorning (who is generally voting me for absolutely no reason), Norlkaz (because my reads list was doing work just to do work), Bert (???), and you (for you thinking certain Thor posts didn't make sense coming from me). That wagon dismantled by one and one exactly by the SSK wagon, which was caused by him not claiming to protect the claimed mason. People who have added onto the wagon are: BRO (sheeping you) and Generic (???). You keep wondering why there isn't a larger wagon on me and keep using that as something to push against me, but I don't have a bigger wagon on me because my wagon doesn't have legs. I'm sure scum will be happier to shuffle on to my wagon when deadline looms and my wagon actually has a chance of going through before then, but I doubt the numbers you're looking for will show up before then.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Pieguyn, can you show me one occurrence of any scum player ever telling another one to deliberately contradict themselves in order to push the wagon through?

[Casso the King of Seals]

@SER ARTHUR DAYNE:

you ignoring me TWICE is noted. I'll even link for your convenience 4615

@zmuffin:

where are you currently at with SAD?

I'm not "distracting you", I'm shutting down your case on me because it gets any farther.
Stand behind your case and defend it; stop trying to pick at how I'm defending myself and instead try sorting me.

oh god this is bad. I don't even know why but this first line feels fkin evil. probably just gut but w/e. and as for the second line, what do you think he's been doing for the last 10 pages? it seems like discrediting bc you're trying to imply he hasn't actually sorted you and he very clearly did. plus he's practically conftown so I don't get why you'd have reservations about him "not sorting" you

I am suddenly getting paranoid about SSK being town (and Nacho still being town) in part because Domo is making a little sense but also because Norlkaz is (surprisingly?) making some sense. I'm not sure that I want to do this anymore. Someone please talk me back into it.

what the fuck
you think he's making some sense although you agree his case is p much entirely fakeable? explain plz

He's been creating a theory where I coach SSK into intentionally acting scummy in order to take the heat off me (instead of reiterating the original push on him) and his entire case on me is based on that and how more people aren't currently voting me. And then when I point out that the basis of his case (scum aren't jumping on Nacho, thus Nacho is scum) is wrong, he accuses me of not scumhunting and doesn't actually address anything that I brought forward.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Generic: A scum meta change on the part of BRO wouldn't have to be a self-aware one, based on his scum meta that muffin and us are aware of; it could be a result of generally having less time to posture, less time to post. There are a few small things other than that from differ from his scumgame, but, like I said earlier, no smoking guns.

My pie guy townread is pretty thoroughly explained; why do you have an issue with it? It's a pretty definitive meta read, pie isn't self-aware slash able to change his scum meta, so why do you have a problem with this read being town full stop?

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Oh, and koreanBBQ as strong town?

Curveballs are one thing, I can't understand the mindfuck you are pulling with that one though.

What wasn't clear about my read on him?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Vote: Desperado

I think this wagon probably never should've died. SSK's geists protect and not picking up on the mason claim seems like the type of town tell that he dropped in Tales, and scummy looking people keep defending him in sketchy looking ways that make scumbuddy suspicions far too blatant.

[Casso the King of Seals]

DOMO, you were waiting for scum to join my wagon?
Here they are.

[Casso the King of Seals]

A townread coming from you? =O What happened to "I have no idea what you were doing in Castle, and I have no idea what you're doing when you play"

it should be pretty evident that i now feel like i have an idea of what you're doing when you play

Bro, this is I'm not sure what - a warning I guess. I'm teetering on the precipice of massive paranoia about you.

Muffin, Desp, I've already fallen into the abyss. I would totally lynch either of you today.

is this supposed to be some kind of grand revelation?

ps why are you helping us mislynch casso then? surely you don't think muffinscum and despscum would be bussing nachothorscum right now

unvote
vote: casso

Hello Desp!

[Casso the King of Seals]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ser Arthur Dayne

Not as confident as I once was here, but I like it better than anything else.

Why not Desp, Cephrir?

[Casso the King of Seals]

#4910 - The vote on F-16 was Thor. Thor came into the game frustrated because the only wagons that were gaining any traction whatsoever were townreads, and the reason that was happening is because there were too many alpha personalities clashing with each other and pushing through vanity wagons in order to get anything decent through. I came into the QT, essentially said that I would just start strong arming whatever lynch looked good and wasn't a townread; that lynch was Sakura. I kept my vote on F-16 while engaging him in order to pressure him to step it up and help me find a good scumread to strongarm, but I ended up finding Sakura without his help at all.

The Thor quote talking about things he's not supposed to pretend exists is an ongoing games reference we were warned for - would rather not talk about that.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Day 1, Votecount 69

Sakura Hana (10)

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Tammy, Casso the King of Seals, DOMO, Ser Arthur Dayne, Sakura Hana, geists, Desperado, KoreanBBQ, MC Maraca, Bert

Casso the King of Seals (3)

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zMuffinMan, goodmorning, Generic

Stuffed Crust (2)

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Cephrir, pieguyn

F-16_Fighting_Falcon (1)

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BROseidon

goodmorning (1)

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Norlkaz

Not Voting (3)

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MafiaSSK, F-16_Fighting_Falcon, Stuffed Crust

With 20 alive, it takes 11 to lynch! Deadline is on December 26th at 3:45 PM EST or in (expired on 2013-12-26 16:44:27)

Mod Notes

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Varsoon head of Stuffed Crust V/LA until January 25th. F-16_Fighting_Falcon is V/LA until the 31st. goodmorning is V/LA until the 26th. DOMO is V/LA until the 27th. Generic is V/LA until the 26th.

This wagon was the basis of the DOMO/SAD group. After Sakura towned, I had townread on every person on is wagon with the exception of you and SAD. Thus, when it turned out that Sakura was highly highly likely to be town, the lesser townreads on this wagon (who were hanging out with a bunch of strong strong townreads) seemed a whole lot worse.

My "strong town" reference was also not a reference to players who I felt were strong town players; it was a reference to my strong town reads (which were likely to be at the time SC and F-16). You weren't in that list.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I kept my vote on F-16 while engaging him in order to pressure him to step it up and help me find a good scumread to strongarm, but I ended up finding Sakura without his help at all.

So you Nacho think Sakura is scum at this moment?

No, I don't.

[Casso the King of Seals]

fwiw if Casso is town then SAD is scum

also, if Tammy is good at reading casso that might explain the tammy kill 0.0

tammy is good at reading 75% of this playerlist.

we all benefitted from her death.

Unvote
Vote: Desp

that better be the sound of sakuratown reads shattering all over the game that i'm hearing

Why?

[Casso the King of Seals]

It's the same reason DOMO got paranoid of you. Sakura already stated that she thought you and SSK were scum, so the switch can't be that surprising.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I thought that BBQ's self-vote in the heat of the deadline pressure was a pretty solid town move, even if you discount his play before that point.

Do you disagree?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Do you see parallels between his hydra play in Faraday's uPick and this game as a solo? If so, how

I see more parallels to his normal scum game than I do to his hydra play in ASOIAF. In both games I remember playing against Desp as scum (Wingate and Xenogears), he's had fits of activity but eventually fell completely below the surface. Here it's fairly similar; he's still pushing cases and he still has cases, but there's no effort to sort anything out or step it up at all even though a few people he feels are scum are completely under the radar in the consensus.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Yes, I do. I feel like it's a fake towntell, and how it was a pretty solid town move is beyond me when there were no votes on his wagon. If not a fake towntell, at least non-alignment indicative.

It felt real, and it made sense for GiF to get extremely frustrated when he was pushing a scumread on Varsoon, no one was listening, a fuck ton of wagons rise and fell but never came back to the SC suspicion he was holding for forever.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Bro, this is I'm not sure what - a warning I guess. I'm teetering on the precipice of massive paranoia about you.

Muffin, Desp, I've already fallen into the abyss. I would totally lynch either of you today.

Could you take me through the reasons not to lynch Desp today?

[Casso the King of Seals]

He's been creating a theory where I coach SSK into intentionally acting scummy in order to take the heat off me (instead of reiterating the original push on him) and his entire case on me is based on that and how more people aren't currently voting me. And then when I point out that the basis of his case (scum aren't jumping on Nacho, thus Nacho is scum) is wrong, he accuses me of not scumhunting and doesn't actually address anything that I brought forward.

afaik he had more on you than this. iirc he did before and he certainly does now. someone tell me if I'm wrong plz

If he had more on me, what is it?

also, explain your zmuffin read? I don't get it. looking through your ISO I remember stuff like this

I measured to the 26th. Site downtime hasn't affected anyone else incredibly significantly, so I didn't think that it affected you that horribly. I think the difference is still important even when considering holidays.

but now it say his excuses for apathy are valid, and then also say it's "not what you'd expect from town muffin", when said apathy was iirc p much the whole reason for this. explain why the flip flop plz. and if that's not it then what other reservations are you having about him?

I agree that I was probably being a little bit too harsh in 4394 with Muffin earlier apathy. I have explained why I don't really think that an apathetic Muffin in this playlist is a townMuffin, but basic reasoning is that he usually enjoys town more than scum unless he has VIs to sort through, which frustrate him. In this game, there are no VIs and so I would expect him to enjoy sorting through all of this, but there's no sign of anything in his ISO. Where has Muffin actively scumhunted in this game? What has he contributed? Nothing, nothing. And I am completely aware that he can contribute more as either alignment, but I don't see why he hasn't contributed more here considering the usual complaints and obstacles aren't in place. Before, it was site downtime and holidays which is an "okay, fair enough". Now site downtime is done with, holidays are over... Why isn't Muffin stepping up?

[Casso the King of Seals]

*throws fit*

This post serves no purpose. If something upsets you, do something.

There are reasonable counterarguments to many of the things I posted regarding SSK.
Isoscum deployed a similar "why are you ignoring my vote" and the emphatic quickreaction may have been real excitement caused by how well Ceph's post fit the narrative he was creating.
"I don't understand this wagon" is certainly an easy way to not engage.
Perhaps that read was wrong. I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again.

Casso's first hundred posts don't justify not lynching them.

My first hundred posts probably don't justify not lynching me at this point in the game.
The next 400 do. Have you read any of them? Where are the flaws in my reads that would point to me being scum? Am I pushing anyone that doesn't look scummy? Am I protecting anyone that doesn't look town?

You owe it with me if you are town to at least comment on the reads themselves instead of dismissing my leg work as busywork.

[Casso the King of Seals]

DOMO, i'm gonna abuse my confirmed town status here a bit and tell you as nicely as I can to drop it. There's things going on outside the game, and the site in general right now, that has ffery on the very edge of her play.

I agree that you're taking this too far, DOMO.

I know I said I'd sheep you till hell freezes over, but we're aware of this train of thought, and we can address it should the prerequisite set of flips happen. It's not the best thing to push right now.

We need to push through a Casso lynch right now.

I hope to god that I was wrong about you.

[Casso the King of Seals]

ps why are you helping us mislynch casso then? surely you don't think muffinscum and despscum would be bussing nachothorscum right now

Hydra dissonance. Nati may be right, but I'm not feeling scum-nacho here. Not feeling town-nacho either. It's hard to explain but the proportional effort going to developing reads vs defending against the wagon just feels off.

I think Nacho usually has more of a "best defense is a good offense" approach when he's being run up.

That's really the main niggle I'm dealing with atm.

I feel completely buried at the moment, which is normally not something I have to deal with. Every time I make a post attacking, it's swept away, has no effect on the gamestate. I've been put on a serious defensive for reasons that I haven't come clost to understanding, and have been monitoring this game like I was monitoring Buzzword because it feels the moment I stop talking, I'm dead.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Do you see parallels between his hydra play in Faraday's uPick and this game as a solo? If so, how

I see more parallels to his normal scum game than I do to his hydra play in ASOIAF. In both games I remember playing against Desp as scum (Wingate and Xenogears), he's had fits of activity but eventually fell completely below the surface. Here it's fairly similar; he's still pushing cases and he still has cases, but there's no effort to sort anything out or step it up at all even though a few people he feels are scum are completely under the radar in the consensus.

i haven't had to step it up--this town is actually doing things that i want to do also, which is oddly refreshing after having to fight the town so hard in the upick

Why do you find me scummy?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Generic, you still haven't danced with me like you promised you would.

[Casso the King of Seals]

You're digging your own holes, busserbunny

I haven't been digging anything: I have been building.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Do you see parallels between his hydra play in Faraday's uPick and this game as a solo? If so, how

I see more parallels to his normal scum game than I do to his hydra play in ASOIAF. In both games I remember playing against Desp as scum (Wingate and Xenogears), he's had fits of activity but eventually fell completely below the surface. Here it's fairly similar; he's still pushing cases and he still has cases, but there's no effort to sort anything out or step it up at all even though a few people he feels are scum are completely under the radar in the consensus.

i haven't had to step it up--this town is actually doing things that i want to do also, which is oddly refreshing after having to fight the town so hard in the upick

Why do you find me scummy?

remember when i said scum-you wouldn't run sakurascum to l-1 and then dismantle it?

i changed my mind

And?

[Casso the King of Seals]

And?

that's about all i have at the moment

pedit: i don't see how i'm shitty at anything. my meaning was clear.

Why are you happy lynching me on it?

[Casso the King of Seals]

And?

that's about all i have at the moment

pedit: i don't see how i'm shitty at anything. my meaning was clear.

Why are you happy lynching me on it?

Especially without addressing anything that I've done, talking about any of my reads, nothing.
You're treating this like a lurker lynch that you feel okay about when even during Maniacal when you didn't know me that well you were willing to drag me down and fight like hell against me. Is it because you agree with the reasons people are pushing me as scum?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Generic, you still haven't danced with me like you promised you would.

You have me for an hour, I thought I had mentioned a few things but have not been back for the responses.

Why have you not done your usual nacho? You piss all over theories, tunnel people you think are scum, and more often than not pull a result.

Remember WE THE PURPLE? tammy fucked up her read on me just for a change, you decide to intervene when you suddenly pulled your head out your arse and saw I was very much town and FUCKING RIGHT on who was scum, and we won.

Here? You are more like newbie 1391. Hiding and tapping away a people without much conviction.

Where's the heart? Cos if I have to I will personally rip it from your chest and feed it to you. Desperado was a bus then was he?

That's the second time you've invoked that newbie despite there being absolutely no similarities between the two games. In that game, I knew I was sunk when my scum partner was lynched, and I knew that there was only a tiny tiny way that's would be able to pull off the win because of "that dude is fucking crazy" factors. In this game, there are five seals on every page and my "usual" is to the right of every one.

[Casso the King of Seals]

ps why are you helping us mislynch casso then? surely you don't think muffinscum and despscum would be bussing nachothorscum right now

Hydra dissonance. Nati may be right, but I'm not feeling scum-nacho here. Not feeling town-nacho either. It's hard to explain but the proportional effort going to developing reads vs defending against the wagon just feels off.

I think Nacho usually has more of a "best defense is a good offense" approach when he's being run up.

That's really the main niggle I'm dealing with atm.

I feel completely buried at the moment, which is normally not something I have to deal with. Every time I make a post attacking, it's swept away, has no effect on the gamestate. I've been put on a serious defensive for reasons that I haven't come clost to understanding, and have been monitoring this game like I was monitoring Buzzword because it feels the moment I stop talking, I'm dead.

The reasons are mostly tinfoil hat.

Invoking that game causes very mixed feelings.

UNVOTE

.

VOTE: Desperado

I'm feeling very mixed things about the game right now, so I suppose it fits.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Generic, you still haven't danced with me like you promised you would.

You have me for an hour, I thought I had mentioned a few things but have not been back for the responses.

Why have you not done your usual nacho? You piss all over theories, tunnel people you think are scum, and more often than not pull a result.

Remember WE THE PURPLE? tammy fucked up her read on me just for a change, you decide to intervene when you suddenly pulled your head out your arse and saw I was very much town and FUCKING RIGHT on who was scum, and we won.

Here? You are more like newbie 1391. Hiding and tapping away a people without much conviction.

Where's the heart? Cos if I have to I will personally rip it from your chest and feed it to you. Desperado was a bus then was he?

That's the second time you've invoked that newbie despite there being absolutely no similarities between the two games. In that game, I knew I was sunk when my scum partner was lynched, and I knew that there was only a tiny tiny way that's would be able to pull off the win because of "that dude is fucking crazy" factors. In this game, there are five seals on every page and my "usual" is to the right of every one.

How about I point to your misguided early attack on me, your immediate back off when you realised I wasn't low hanging fruit and your attempt to bus your teammate? can I point to those, especially if someone like desperado flips scum?
Because you have pulled your punches this game, that's how it feels to me and im used to a nacho with almost as much front as me... who took your fucking bite, is it being paired with thor or are you just scum?

And if you are so embarrassed by that as the example, give me a fucking scum game of yours I can read and contrast.

I don't even remember an early misguided attack on you in that newbie; I remember happily mislynching the towniest player in the game after town made me Mr. Mayor, but I don't remember the back off and bus.

I can't see where you're claiming I've pulled punches this game; maybe skipped a few steps and not been fully engaged in the last few days because I've been busy, but I'm currently in full force and dancing with everyone who's around. Are any of the main detractors actually attacking me?

Where is Muffin, who spent pages and pages yelling at how upset he was that I wasn't getting lynched in Xenogears? Last time I was his #1 scumread everyone knew about it, everyone was complaining about it.

Where the hell is Desperado? He usually thrives in atmospheres like this and I sure as hell can't see him apathy lynching me when he's worked together extremely closely with me in the past; every time one of us has had an incorrect read on the other it's been loud and it's been angry: do you really think town-Desperado would be happy to let me die without any sort of interaction with me at all even though he apparently has plenty of other scumreads he's completely content with?

BRO is sheeping DOMO and ignoring me completely despite having enough information to make a read of me on his own. I know he can see how frustrated I am with this lynch, I know he knows exactly how I feel at this moment because he's been going down angry, swinging, overwhelmed with the nothing cases on him but he's pretending he doesn't see any of it at all.

Norlkaz has been voting me for busywork even though he's seen me play the exact same way in a not so recent past. He complains about not having a town leader to guide the crowd, but he hasn't made anywhere near the effort I've seen him put in any other town game to figure out things here and properly vet lynches. I'm sure he will have excuses why he hasnt taken the lead, why he hasn't pushed anything through (noise, no one listening to me) but I've been down this road before and his predecessor hasnt given him enough towncred to coast for 8 more days.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I read the "slip" as "we all benefit from her death on the assumption we're scum", so not really a slip

either way, I'm fine with this, although I still prefer SAD. but it's mostly bc of a tinfoil hat theory I'm working on so I'll join if need be

Have you reread Desperado yet, or are you still clearing him town based on hazy feelings?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Eventually, the tide will win. Every post I make is a wave crashing against the beach of the scumteam; I guarantee there will be a hell of a whiplash against all the silence that's currently around me because no one is going to look at this lynch and go "meh, he deserved it".

[Casso the King of Seals]

Eventually, the tide will win. Every post I make is a wave crashing against the beach of the scumteam; I guarantee there will be a hell of a whiplash against all the silence that's currently around me because no one is going to look at this lynch and go "meh, he deserved it".

THIS is the nacho I used to love. Why have I had to request his presence to see that attitude come through?

And as for your point about people not stepping up lkike you would have wanted, that's why I have been wanting this. Twice I have tried to engage with you to see what you have in you, and twice circumstance stopped any interaction. As for the rest that's part of what feels off, I haven't seen the rutting stags checking eachother out in this beyond my own little bubble, so are you blaming them rather than you?

BRO has recently shown he will throw out a wide vague net to allow him to point a finger of suspicion on someone yet not get his hands dirty to do it. That's leaves a shitty taste in the mouth.

I don't know why you haven't seen the Nacho factor than you've been looking for because it's certainly been there.

I do "blame them rather than me" because I've been omnipresent in this game and there's really no reason why people wouldn't engage with me. Did you have problems picking a fight with me as soon as you were able?

[Casso the King of Seals]

BRO is sheeping DOMO and ignoring me completely despite having enough information to make a read of me on his own. I know he can see how frustrated I am with this lynch, I know he knows exactly how I feel at this moment because he's been going down angry, swinging, overwhelmed with the nothing cases on him but he's pretending he doesn't see any of it at all.

I don't see the same emotion out of you, that's the problem.

In Xenogears we had a back and forth so intense that I flipped a shit, self-hammered, and couldn't see through my rage to change the course of the game.

Here, I don't see that frustration.

I was a pompous ass in Xenogears, but I don't remember much emotion except for riding the high of being pushed for a mislynch which I've shown here in spades.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I could start posting in all caps if that would help you read me better, though.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Sakura, Desperado is an asset to town if town too.

I disagree.

Or at least i never seen him do anything useful here or in Oz.

hahahahaha

a game i replaced out of voluntarily n1

no wonder nacho felt like he needed to come up with something to obvtown you; left to your own devices you might as well flash a giant red sign and call it a game

Where the hell is Desperado? He usually thrives in atmospheres like this and I sure as hell can't see him apathy lynching me when he's worked together extremely closely with me in the past;

every time one of us has had an incorrect read on the other it's been loud and it's been angry:

do you really think town-Desperado would be happy to let me die without any sort of interaction with me at all even though he apparently has plenty of other scumreads he's completely content with?

i'm not "happy to let you die" i'm "happy to kill you"

re: bold, refresh my memory? maniacal and....?

HoH.

[Casso the King of Seals]

#4910 - The vote on F-16 was Thor. Thor came into the game frustrated because the only wagons that were gaining any traction whatsoever were townreads, and the reason that was happening is because there were too many alpha personalities clashing with each other and pushing through vanity wagons in order to get anything decent through.

Hence compromise and dramatic "I'm voting this player even though I think he's town and also I don't have a case"; he wanted to shake things up and he did.

I came into the QT, essentially said that I would just start strong arming whatever lynch looked good and wasn't a townread; that lynch was Sakura. I kept my vote on F-16 while engaging him in order to pressure him to step it up and help me find a good scumread to strongarm, but I ended up finding Sakura without his help at all.

The Thor quote talking about things he's not supposed to pretend exists is an ongoing games reference we were warned for - would rather not talk about that.

DOMO. Added stuff in bolded but most of this quote still applies.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Also, casso did I miss your post asoiaaf write up on Ceph?

Nope, forgot to do it.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Why isn't Muffin stepping up?

i'm not feeling very confident this game. "stepping it up" would just involve me waffling about things a lot more than i am

i'm reading, i'm giving my meager thoughts here and there, nobody is really asking me any questions about anything, and i kinda just want some flips to sort out where i'm right or wrong atm

Where is Muffin, who spent pages and pages yelling at how upset he was that I wasn't getting lynched in Xenogears? Last time I was his #1 scumread everyone knew about it, everyone was complaining about it

you have a very skewed view of my towngame. xenogears was an entirely different ballpark. there i was worried because the only two still-living players scumreading you at the time were me and ghostlin, who were fairly obviously going to be killed off consecutively on the following nights (and we both did end up dying consecutively on the following nights). i was worried there that you'd talk yourself out of a lynch because nobody else who wanted you dead would be around to really push you

here i don't have any of the same concerns. i'm not exactly a priority kill in the current gamestate, i'm not particularly worried about there being too few people who want to lynch you, and i don't see you being able to bullshit your way through the game much longer (although you seem to be doing an OK job of making people waver on you atm).

i'm also slightly worried because all the major wagons being considered atm (aside from SAD) are wagons on my scum reads, and generally that means i'm really, really wrong somewhere and i dunno where

I don't understand how "not being confident on anything" means that you've gone completely silent; I have a tendency to get loud when I'm trying to figure things out, and I doubt you'd be any different since shuffling your feet quietly generally does nothing to bring you closer to figuring out the scumteam.

I also don't get how you not understanding what is going on equates to you sitting with your vote on me and doing nothing else; if you have scumreads on Desperado and I, why not vote Desperado? It's not like you've made a particularly poignant effort to sort me out (which I don't understand because still here, still posting) and you haven't acted like you have shit for conviction in your read on me so it's not a "he's going to get away if we let him live" situation. There's a pretty simple answer for what's currently going horribly wrong in your read of the gamestate, and I'm surprised you're not even coming close to seeing it, considering who is following you onto the wagon and who isn't.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Yes, it is not possible I was addressing those sentences to two different targets.

Go ahead, lynch me for my fucking word choice. Let me know when you're ready to play mafia instead.

There's a significant difference between Cephrir attitude when being pushed for bad reasons here and his attitude when being pushed in ASOIAF. There, he got pissed because people were pushing him for shitty reasons and it has a very "no way in hell you're getting me lynched over this bullshit" attitude while here he's pretty much prematurely accepting death and calling Generic for how bad he will look later and emphasizing on how bad he will look later. One thing that I've noticed about Cephrir pushes as scum (in ASOIAF, at least) is that the majority of his pushes are on lynchbait or people who he has a lot of meta experience with (and pushes on them serve a certain purpose). The push on Generic wouldn't really serve either of these purposes (but this is just a theory, I haven't even made it through Cephrir Day 1 posts yet).

[Casso the King of Seals]

Syr-

This game got serious a lot faster than the other one did. I've already established that I believe I'm allowed to agree with people without thinking the argument I'm agreeing with is town.

I don't need to interact with people a ton to get a townread on them. Did you see me interacting with Bert a lot in that game beforehand? Not really, I thought the slot was scum until he switched accounts and then I decided he was mega absurdly town. The only difference is that Nacho isn't surprised by this.

It's kind of a relief to hear you actually have solid reasons, but as Nacho said in that game, I was playing atypically in some regards. I don't expect any of that to convince you though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And thisis what an example of what faked defeatism looks like; here, Ceph pretty thoroughly addresses Syryana's points on him and then is like "but I don't expect any of this to convince you (shrug)" which is a bit different from the "nope I'm gonna die but then you will look bad" defeatism here.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I have been justifying it.

I'm not as convinced as I started out (shhhh its a secret) but still think it's the best wagon by a longshot. If you'd prefer I move to you though perhaps that could be arranged (not really).

It disturbs me that you're scumreading me here after correctly scumreading me in my other two games with you ever (I think my play is pretty different here). I guess you just think I'm scum all the time and I've been giving you too much credit!

Thor managed to read someone correctly???

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Casso

Thanks for making this easy for me

Cephrir, was this post genuine?

[Casso the King of Seals]

I was wondering whether it was ongoing games mind games or a genuine response since I still like the immediate attack on me for attacking you as opposed to the threatening suspicion in ASOIAF. Why did you think me scumreading you here would be a scumtell for me?

[Casso the King of Seals]

That makes sense.
I think old meta tells for you still apply (for the most part): in ASOIAF I noticed that you had a couple slow reactions there because it goes against your scum instincts (Benmage partial counterclaim instead of NO, FUCK THIS SHIT was the biggest one, but the way you treated me doubting you there as opposed to how you handled what you thought was me doubting you here is the other big one). I haven't noticed anything like that here.

I'm interested in what ffery thinks.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Casso would be an asset if they were town. I'm not feeling casso as a huge asset right now. I wonder why that is?

ffery, did you explain your interpretation of desp's comment? You don't seem to think it's a scumslip, yet that's who you're voting for.

It sure as hell isn't because of anything in my posts.

[Casso the King of Seals]

desp started off tyring to buddy sakura. That then collapsed into a scumread. That feels reasonably town motivated. Not pushing for #1 scumread isn't in its own right a scum tell, that then comes down to meta. I've played desp once and we was more aggressive. I don't see him calling those who scumreading him an idiot, although he might have. I found him to be quite rude in the face of critisism in oz, where I consider him to have been sort of scum. Here he just seems dismissive.

I'm leaning town with desp, but my meta with him is very limited and complicated due to the nature of our last game.

pedit - Do you agree or not that this is not the same desp we saw in oz?

I don't think Oz is a good source to draw meta from.

[Casso the King of Seals]

You read him well in a game where no one had a real alignment?

[Casso the King of Seals]

You read him well in a game where no one had a real alignment?

Does it matter to you how I form my reads? If you're questioning my honesty or motive, fair enough. But you know I'm town, so why press me on this? Distraction perhaps? It's a vague read I have here on desp, enough to not want to lynch him today, enough for me to try and talk the town into going for you instead.

I'm questioning your methods because I don't think they are leading to accurate conclusions.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Desp is being pretty convincing compared to Casso today. Dang this game.

Vote: Casso

Hoppity Hop

teehee

Sometimes I wonder if we're even reading the same game.

[Casso the King of Seals]

If you were really town and you were really scumreading me you'd keep trying to convince town why im scum and why everything i've done is fake.
You aren't pushing because you know I'm town and there's no way you can make up a way for what i've done to look fake so you gave up pushing in that direction, so you'll just settle with just about anything else.

there is no support for your lynch at all, because you busted out a broken pseudo trust tell

you trying to tell me that the only thing town would do in my situation would be to continue pushing for your lynch even though that will never be a reality for reasons that are essentially not game related is pretty silly

pedit: it sucks donkey balls

Do you have a case on Sakura?
Why do you think a pseudo trust tell that Sakura was banned for is inaccurate?

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Subject: Ban/Restriction Announcements

Sakura Hana has been banned from joining any new games for two weeks due to excessive replacing out of games and doing such to enact a trust tell.

Bert, it doesn't matter that she didn't fully replace out. She didn't fully replace out in Fire Emblem either, tell is still just as strong.

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Where has she threatened to replace out as scum?

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That's not the case this time. I've reached out a few times, gotten back "lolyerscum" mostly, and in circumstances where I don't understand why you would even have that read.

So, if you're town, help me understand why our useful communications and synchronicity of reads have been nonexistent. Explain why you didn't make a real effort to sort me or get me lynched on day 1.

i saw something from nat early in the game--that i will not elaborate on--and haven't trusted you since

Nothing ffery has done has given you any sort of townread?

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Desp is there a reason why you're playing like this?

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Desp is there a reason why you're playing like this?

Nothing he's posted has shaken your read?

I feel less certain that he's scum, but I'm don't come close to understanding where his head is this game if he's actually town.

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I would be happy to think harder about Sakura if someone could link me to a scum game where she acted like this.

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Who would you be willing to counterwagon before time's up and you lose in the trenches

SAD or SSK is pretty much the limit of who I'm willing to flash wagon.

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I agree. I don't think this is the game.

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This reads as so manipulative. You CANNOT be so certain that Nacho is town that you are willing to get lynched in his place. Nacho is a good scum player. There will always be uncertainty and paranoia. Even ffery who can read him like a book isn't certain of his affiliation.

I did the same before, why didn't you question it, yet you question Cephrir's motives?

You are not him.

I don't think that Cephrir as scum would be so hamfisted. His buddying to me in ASOIAF was a hell of a lot more subtle; it started out with him townreading me when I first began pouring effort into the game, then a slow build up of faked paranoia that he kept retracting when i continued not to get weird on him. I also haven't seen Cephrir make any dramatic loud gambits in his play as scum; he usually just plays a very solid day game and leaves it at that.

I also don't think scum tend to save town players who are close to death; it was the type of post I always expect to come when I'm getting lynched and don't deserve it at all, but never comes because scum is stepping back and letting it happen (the latest crosstown and the Vi lynch is the clearest memory, but Hard Boiled where I let NS get lynches is a pretty great example too). He also took a real risk if scum there; there was a lot of antiCephrir sentiments coming up and a few bad knee jerk responses could have made a dead Cephrir very very easily.

The confidence of it does bother me, but do you really think Cephrir as scum would go that deep to save me?

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Sure. When you're ready, name a day and a player.

zmuffin, bro, SER, Norlkaz, bert, pieguy, Cephrir

More or less in that order. SER and Norlkaz mostly because I'm horrifically unfamiliar with their play.

Sleeping on it, Nati and I still feel like this is town-Nacho. I hope we're right.

Can probably start tonight. I'm looking at isos for another game atm.

Have you changed your mind on Sakura?

Not really. See my previous post. I still have her down as questionable and I don't like that her day 1 pseudo-blacklist tell is being used to town her so emphatically.

What does Nati think?

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Oh I see, PoE

This was reasonable to you?

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So to keep all of my posts relevant to the game I'm going to start posting excerpts from fanfiction that describe themselves as "epic", but with a savory twist.

This one is from a Harry Potter Fic known as "Marauders epic moments":

Boy thank merlin we have the Seriously Strong Cheddars, that's what I call them anyway, has a nice ring to it. Anyway Jarlsberg looks like he has a plan, no wait, no he doesn't. So I turned
around to see what he was looking at. Lily Emmental of course. Why does Provolongsie always end up in Lily-land when she enters the room. Oh great ,she's coming over. This'll be
entertaining.
"Hey Lily." That was Provolongs.
"Hello Potter." Emmental.
"So, why didn't you take any points off them, Emmental?" Come on we all know who that is.
" I didn't see the need." She's grinning, Oh Merlin, why is she grinning? Siraz Black is worried.
Evans again "I simply told MacconisGonagall what happened,she wasn't happy. She took a further 10 points each and each Slytherin involved got a fortnights detention. Happy, Potter?"
He must be, I am . I can't wait to annoy them about that. Emmental just walked away there and then shouted over her shoulder " Nearly forgot, she also told me to check that her
favourite Quidditch player was alright!" I just stood up and yelled at her "Tell Mimolette I love her too!" and the whole common room exploded with laughter, I gave(what I hoped to
be) a comical bow and sat down. What , I AM a Marauder, after all.

This is absolutely amazing.

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But, I was being honest in wanting out of this game because I am the weakest player remaining, and the sooner I'm crossed off the list, the better town's chances of winning this. Also, I've been having trouble in this game.

It's good that SSK has claimed scum today, though, for town.

This is Bert who is being too hard on himself, not a Bert who is tapering off and coasting like in White Flag.

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Ffery. There was a good case on casso made by GM, and I for one am quite trusting it, and as for mara, well, SHE made that vote, not me.

Vote: MC Maraca

Call this vote on you symbolic because the GM case on me is shit and everyone knows it.

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vote: SSK

@Casso:

where's Thor?

I don't remember seeing any Thor posts D2. this reminds me of marketplace how both Faraday and Empire disappeared without any warning at all and they were both scum. both times I've seen this happen the slot ended up being scum and I don't see any specific reason why half of a town slot would disappear and not explain why

about flashlynching SSK I think it's possible casso-scum wanted to lead a lynch on his partner so no one would get paranoid of him. but then the problem is why would SSK even claim doctor in the first place. but then I guess it might set off a red flag if SSK flips scumdoc and didn't claim doc or anything like that? I'd guess a scumdoc wouldn't just claim vanilla

Thor is around. I've taken full control of posting because it was closer to how Thor wanted this hydra to function and I've had time to do it.

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Pie, I will also point out that SSK joined 1 major wagon (stuffed crust near deadline). His reaction to every other wagon has been "why is this wagon happening? I don't like it.". I don't know how you have a townread on Muffin.

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I was thinking about Cephrir's move on my walk today. It would be a hell of a scum move because the emotional manipulation is pretty fucking potent; when I read that post, I broke out in a massive smile and wanted to give Cephrir a big hug because he was a wonderful person. I know that there's a belief that good scum players can do anything, but it's the type of thing that I want to say feels too good to be coming from scum even though that lacks any sort of logic at all.

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Sakura's funny because I have next to no experience with her scumgame and yeah perhaps she can fake the fatalism and the frustration and all of that but really how fast do people's scumgames evolve? Ffery still struggles with faking the conviction part of her meta as scum even though she's played longer than I have, Tammy didn't call herself obvtown as mafia until Chosen, mollie is still transparent as hell...

We can drive ourselves crazy going "is this the one? is this the one?", but we all know this isn't the one.

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Sometimes I don't quite understand what you're saying but don't want to ask you to clarify because you're town as shit and I don't want to clutter up the thread.

This wasn't a specific case of that, but I just thought you should know so I can get it off my chest.

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Cephrir seems to think that I'm this party animal that posts the most random troll stuff that I did in Hard Boiled and also sheeps everything that comes within 6 inches of my face. I'm trying to get through to him/her that this is not the case, as we will likely be in games in the future together.

You're a party animal!

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Ffery. There was a good case on casso made by GM, and I for one am quite trusting it, and as for mara, well, SHE made that vote, not me.

Vote: MC Maraca

Call this vote on you symbolic because the GM case on me is shit and everyone knows it.

oh nacho

it's not the greatest case ever and is no thing of beauty but you two are good players, there's not likely a good case to be had on you

but you are scum.

I'm flattered, but no.

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Greetings,

Nacho is really bugging me for a more overall reads list, and all I've been doing are isos and spot reads.

Someone explain a wagon they're on, I want to get a take on it.

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Regarding the Mason claim, I'd like an explicit claim from GoodMorning stating that you are Masons with MC and MC alone just to be safe.

This is kind of a weird way to ask the question. Why did you add the "MC alone" part?

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So, we're on a Mason claim...I'm almost tempted to leave that vote there just for the amusement but..

Unvote: MC
Vote: MafiaSSK

I know this was one Nacho and I agreed on when last we talked - also biggest wagon is big and therefore probably win.

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Actually, we haven't discussed Mafia in like...forever.
Meh, if he has a town read than just call it hydra dissonance and lulz, but I'm happier being on the big wagon anyway.

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Nacho is really bugging me for a more overall reads list, and all I've been doing are isos and spot reads.

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Unless you think by 'Mafia' I meant the game of Mafia as opposed to 'MafiaSSK'
I meant 'MafiaSSK'
Pay attention to my vote.

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I know this was one Nacho and I agreed on when last we talked

Actually, we haven't discussed Mafia in like...forever.

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Interact with me!

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Interact with me!

What are your thoughts about the SSK wagon?

That it's probably not big enough.

What are your thoughts?

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I had to look up who he claimed for today.

With that answer I presume he's actually got a decent chance to not be a Mafia Doc and did target BRO with something. So I'd say BRO is confirmed town unless Mafia flips mafia doc, in which case BRO is who I'd lynch next.
That seems a pretty boring question.

What are we doing with this day if not lynching Mafia?

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The question was for context. I couldn't tell how well you're plugged into the current game state based on your recent posts.

My recent posts pretty much said 'I'm not plugged in and it's peeving off Nacho, so I'm trying to plug in again' ...but, sure, you have accurately noted that I'm not plugged in as well as I should be, I hope that clarifies things for you.

I've spent a lot of the time in the QT talking about Desp, frankly, and building cases thereupon. I also spent some time telling Nacho how dumb DOMO's case on us was when he asked me for my advice on getting DOMO to chill - as far as I'm aware he didn't post any of my responses whisch were mostly 'DOMO is a raging lackwit and here's why - et al'

He's also filled me in on a few happenings and asked my opinion and I've done a bit of VCA and a pile of sort of mindless growling about how much I hate the game, the playstyle, and a number of the actions as I feel everyone is making the game about four times as big and complicated as it has any right to be at this stage. I also keep encouraging him to just lulzhammer people but he seems opposed to that idea as well, such is my fate.

Ent Moot apparently.

The book or the movie version? Because one made sense and the other really didn't.

Conversation is currently dead because we have no scum flips nor any exciting night actions.
Let's lynch someone and get more night actions and then maybe stuff will get exciting again.
The other option is people can at least come in here and bounce some of their thoughts off me for about two days and then we lynch someone.
I can't think of a third acceptable plan, but am willing to hear it.
Any comments of "use our time" will be met with the derision they deserve.

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Book version.

That's the one that makes sense...hurm...

I want to talk reads with players and leave my thoughts in the game for day 4. I think Nati feels the same way.

I await with baited breath.

Have you and Nacho talked about F-16's suggestion to scumhunt elsewhere today and lynch SSK day 4?

We have not. I'll offer a deeper opinion on that one after he answers my question, but my initial commentary is 'meh'. If his theory is that Mafia is telling the truth, then that means scum had some way (roleblocker seems likely, though I suppose Strongman is an option) to ensure their kill could go through. At that stage, what working theory makes him think they just wouldn't do the same tonight if the goal was to arrange a mislynch? I don't get it.

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So, we're on a Mason claim...I'm almost tempted to leave that vote there just for the amusement but..

Unvote: MC
Vote: MafiaSSK

I know this was one Nacho and I agreed on when last we talked - also biggest wagon is big and therefore probably win.

Voting confirmed scum isn't the worse vote you could make, true.

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worst*

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I don't know how *anyone* has a townread on Muffin.

neither do i, tbh

but then people are townreading casso, so stranger things have happened

Occasionally people read my posts!
It's truly an insane phenomenon.

Why not defend a buddy against a bad case? The "point" would be to lynch a townie on D1 instead of his buddy. That's one mislynch for the scum. That's a much better start for them than having a scumlynch D1. The way he was defending him strikes me as odd too. He never once states that he thought SSK was actually town. He is distancing from SSK while defending him.

My initial thought on it was that it was too obvious to be a scumbuddy interaction, but the deadline panic makes it a sketchier interaction; it's so easy to cover up scummery in the heat of the moment (see: Muffin and I fucking up a trollhammer in marketplace and not getting immediately lynched for it).

it's possible but it seems convoluted from SAD to defend him that hard only to eventually vote him and have him claim doc.

There was no guarantee SSK was even going to show up at that point, there's no guarantee that he knew SSK was going to claim doc...

You know that we're town, and that vote isn't gonna do anything. You also know that I've been defending you, so me placing that vote didn't just come from no where. If you're town, instead of OMGUS'ing and attempting to flail, it'll probably be more conductive if you gave my hydra partner and my mason partner a reason to read you as town

I want Cabd.

wow this is really weak. I was expecting "you're wrong, here's why". but instead you don't even directly address my point? what the hell nacho? where'd all your passion go 0.0

i was up at 5:30am and hadn't slept all night + I addressed your point when I pointed out that SSK avoided every major wagon
#rekt?

I had Casso as scum but I am willing to put aside that read in favor of ffery's Nacho read so we can focus on mutually agreed upon scumreads.

I'd feel much more comfortable if you aired that read a bit; I can sense the paranoia building up and ffery won't be around to defend me forever, and I'm afraid people will be all too happy to ignore her when she's gone.

Ceph, I don't see the benefit in lynching SSK for "morale." It is not going to improve my morale by lynching conf-scum and starting tomorrow with dead Geists for instance. I mean, you could say we should extend the day phase and get their thoughts but it is just not the same as having them involved in a lynch. I want as many optimal town lynches with the best players/conftown alive as possible.

I wanna lynch SSK today because he's confirmed scum and I want him to die. You are correct in this probably not being the optimal move.

A.) Anyone that has game experience with me and B.) is town knows how different my town and scum games are.

B.) isn't a necessary part of the equation.
Everyone knows how different your games are!

Nacho, I want to hear updates on your reads and your thoughts about the plan to lynch someone besides SSK. I'd also like your opinion on my POE analysis and who you think we should lynch today?

If we were to lynch someone else, I'd lynch SAD. I tend to agree with BRO that we have good depth to where scum killing off the competent townies isn't a huge concern. But the thrust of my argument is: I really want to lynch scum today.

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I thin his theory is that town's supply of best and brightest (I say this with a little irony) will be lowered overnight, so saving the obvscum for tomorrow and all-out scumhunting today could be a better use of more or less confirmed town minds and votes than lynching obvscum today.

Lowered by...one, if the evidence is to be believed.
With mason claims in play.
Meh.

If Mafia is scum and is something other than a Mafia Doc then I think the gains and losses do not balance out in a sensible way. What if he's a roleblocker or something - you don't hand scum an additional night. It's dumb.

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Unvote

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^^^
Thor.

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I didn't time that well for maximum Mod annoyage then.
*Le sigh*

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ffery, Thor's posts make me cringe. I don't want to comment on them. They are probably the most blatantly useless and anti-town posts I've seen anyone make.

Say wha? Where is this ridiculous attack coming from? My posts have been, at worst, the posts of a player catching up with a game he has not read all of - which to my mind is a null tell because, shocker, there's no reason for me to fake that if I'm scum.

So where is this hostility and issue coming from? Be specific, I'd like to hear it.

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Voting an (apparent) townread with no explanation.
...
Continuing to push it for nonsense reasons.
...
Nothing useful or insightful here.
...
Bad reason to jump on a wagon.
...
None of these posts make you scum. But they are all blatantly anti-town as they obscure your affiliation making you harder to read.

Oh, okay, so if I did things that allow one to read me and...

I don't agree that disconnected Thor posts are necessarily town. Thor tries to do as scum what he would do as town and is generally very good at it. I think that if he fell behind, he would act the same way regardless of alignment.

Oh, wait, so basically anything I do might be something I do as scum because, when scum, i do the things I do as town.
Then you whine that I'm being anti-town so I'm hard to read while also noting that anything I do might just be me faking it.
Color me unimpressed by your issue with me, and, yes, I think the hostility is vastly overrated for the actual explanation which is "I think Thor is being anti-town and also that he is hard to read in a general sense"

You also apparently decided that...and then *I* was obligated to start the interaction between us because your plan was not to talk about it.
So you don't have a scum case on me.
You find everything I'm doing terrible because it makes me hard to read.
You have to be forced into discussing and interacting with someone you're finding it hard to read.
But you want to toss belligerant one liners at him.

None of this adds up to me, you're angry that I'm hard to read but don't want to do anything to advance your ability to read me...so...what's going through your head right now?
Because if your plan, as currently stated, is to read Nacho (of which there is ample Nacho available to read) then why even mention me?
More specifically, why attack me when you aren't even willing to call me scummy when pressed on it?
Why did you do this, and why are you angry about it?

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A scum hydra partner has a hard time remaining totally disconnected.

I will admit this feels like a double standard.
Look, I am disconnected - but I think it's pretty apparent from my attitude towards the game why I'm disconnected and I can't think of any reason that would ever be alignment related. It's a playstyle reaction of my issues with hydras and issues with silly huge games full of posts I consider off point.

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@SAD - why do you think Bert is scummy?

@KoreanBBQ - your read on Falcon?

@Godmorning - can you walk me through how what Titus is doing looks scummy? Because I don't see it at all, so maybe others are also missing it and a step by step explanation could help us all understand.

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Why?

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If you don't believe me my buddies from the QT can confirm that he's town.

I don't think I'm asking a question unreasonable enough to deserve this as the answer.

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I mean, at least be honest if you can't put it into words and tell me that. Don't give me snark and pretend that helps anything. Or at least say you think I'm blatant scum and you don't need to answer anything, don't give me half an answer and dance away.

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I do, which is why I'd like to hear the logic for a town read so I can compare/contrast.

Why, what's your take on him?

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The pool of players were too large. I wanted to focus on mutually agreed upon scumreads first and see if I can get a better read on Nacho in the meantime.

I think this post is strange. I remember him making a MD post about one shouldn't hunt anyone that isn't currently being discussed. This looks very similar to that.

So I think he's town.

I can kind of get behind this mentality.

The hangup for me was that he asked the Masons, functionally, if there was a third mason and who was it. I can think of reasons that is helpful to scum, but I can't think of any that are helpful to town. Do you think that's me being crazy, him just being silly, or him mining for scumvantage info?

I kind of want SSK lynched ASAP but it's true that geists it's most likely going to die tonight, so we want as much input from them before day end.

Posh, everyone will pay attention to his reads for about the first 3 pages of the next dayphase, then we'll all just return to our regular thoughts and forget about him.

What do you think about Muffin? I hate reading Muffin, what's your read on him if any?
An opinion about the Falcon Mason question I noted to BBQ in the above quote also wouldn't be sad to see.

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@Everyone, who are the 3 most likely scum in this group?

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pieguyn

BROseidon
Norlkaz

Ser Arthur Dayne

zMuffinMan

Titus

There, I gave you 3 levels of strength in reads.

I think Mafia's flip will also clarify the BRO slot pretty well.

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His read of you/thor really hinges on Thor and to some extent Thor putting that vote down on him when you had expressed a pretty solid townread. It's less objective than what I associate with his play, but I think something like that would have focused the hell out of my attention, too. I'd deal with it a little differently.

Well, first off you are talking with Thor right now - Nacho had a few posts in there last night but the last two days of posting have been almost exclusively me.

Also, he is clearly OMGUSing there, and further than that ignoring my stated reasons for the vote while just whining that we placed it without actually sweating the logic or the reasoning. That he has issues with bigger games curls my toes a bit that he doesn't spot my issues at that stage.

That said, your opinion on the Mason issue I raised with him? I can forgive his bad case on us, I get bad cases made on me all the time and most are quite worse than what he is doing here which is really just complaining that I'm anti-town while acting like it's a scumtell, but his Mason question really bugs me, and if that were cleared up my issue with the slot would dramatically shift. I just can't figure out why he would want that answered.

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So you and Nacho haven't talked about what that's about?

Here is the grand total of everything Nacho has said in our QT since Falcon asked that question;

"Also, let's have a little Ent Moot of our own. I plan to do some rereading myself! "

So...no, we haven't discussed it.
And dear gawd that sounds like terrible play from a number of people.

Looking at the playerlist I don't see Falcon there. What makes you so sure that game is why he asked that question?

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Timing and context. And the fact that I know he follows games he's not playing, especially if there are players of interest due to his reads in games he is playing.

This feels like projection - especially since I called him out on doing it and he didn't bring this up himself as an answer, because it would have been a very reasonable answer if that's what he had been doing, instead he didn't even respond to my issue.

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You dill heads and your derp metas.

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I don't deny the process exists. I just am frustrated by my inability to process it like so many seem to do, and also find their inability to properly explain a supposed process to be annoying (though, frankly, that's probably why the way I use and deal with meta isn't the same as anyone else's)

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considering nacho's opinion on me, i woulda thought you guys had been discussing me a fair bit. how do you not have your own opinion on any of the stuff he thinks or even just your own opinion on me here?

Quote me saying I have no opinion on you?
You managed to quote me saying I hated reading you.
You also quoted me asking someone else for their opinion on you.
You then decided this meant Nacho and I had not discussed you at all and I had no opinion about you at all...which actually doesn't follow from any of the evidence you're working with. So, where is this coming from and what is its purpose?

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I also felt weird about it, but do you really think Scum-F16 would be so blatant? I mean, none of us are stupid.

As far as I'm aware I'm the only one who decided to call him on it and point out that it was bad. So, maybe I'm the stupid one, but clearly he was getting away with it just fine up to that point, so at that stage how risky/obvious was it?

Scumtells are always obvious after they are called out, just like breadcrumbs. My breadcrumbs are all quite obvious...once I point out it was a crumb. But I've never had any scum team catch my crumbs before. I submit the same effect is in play here. Yes, what he did was obviously bad. But I think it took me saying something for people to note it.

1. You can take the condescending tone and shove it.

Please don't project insult onto me. When I try to insult people I'm usually pretty blatant about it, so your aggravated response kind of left me awkward in wanting to reply to it, but unsure how to reply to it sensibly without being hostile right back. I wasn't trying to be hostile, I am now wanting to be hostile because you were.

So shove that, I suppose.

A. Muffin wasn't particularly fencesitting.
B. Buzzword scumhunting rather than any real contribution.
C. Fails to demonstrate that fencesitting from Muffin would be cause for concern.
D. If it weren't Titus, the lack of a vote here would also be a bit pingy.
E. This post comes before the next post.

A. Depends on your definition. I wouldn't call what he was saying fencesitting, but he was abdicating responsibility to solve a conundrum. If Titus had called it 'failure to engage to find the truth' would you have found the call as objectionable? I don't feel you're trying to understand the expressed issue, and instead just are stopping at a definition hangup and acting like that's far enough.

B. Which, sadly, comes from town all the time. i know, I mislynch them for it on a regular basis. The question is - was that the goal of what Titus was doing or not?

C. You failed to ask him to demonstrate it and yet called him scummy for it without trying to seek his logic. I agree that shutting down at a quick conclusion is bad, but I think you're doing the same thing here as Titus is there. It's bad play, assuredly. It's only possibly scummy play though.

D. Well...it is Titus, so this is meaningless then?

E. You don't seem to connect them again. Did I miss something that was going to be here?

A. If you're reading closely enough to know where the wagons are, you're reading closely enough to see people's stated reasoning for them.
B. The last time I saw a post like this (vague shame you lynched a pr boo), I made it. It was my first Scum game. Does it have to come from Scum? No. Does it look like it? Oh yes.
C. With such concern about SSK's targets, why not just ISO him and see if he had claimed them? The people in this game are competent enough to have forced the issue if he hadn't, so the info was obviously going to be there. His ISO is only 77 posts so it's not like it would take long, and in any case Ctrl+f "protect" shows it within four results.
D. I also enjoy the "I would love for a tracker or watcher to out themselves! BUT SUBTLY"
i. I mean, any outing in this playerlist, especially with heavy analytics like ffery alive, would be about as subtle as a cat in a kitchen.

A. I don't think that's what Titus was saying there. The way I read it the point was to express that it was scum driven, and probably scum driven on the back end.

B. So it looks scummy to you on a surface level...I feel that's all you're saying here...?

C. I agree with this, I think we have identified that Titus is lazy. Do you see that as a scumtell or a playstyle tell?

D. I also felt weird about it, but do you really think Scum-

F16

Titus would be so blatant? I mean, none of us are stupid... But actually I agree with you on this one, it does look like an attempt to slow down and perhaps delay the Mafia wagon and I do find that scummy and I'd even missed the Tracker fish till you pointed it out....I'll admit these last couple also include my issues with Falcon, which you disagree with across the board it seems? I'm curious why you love the Titus case but disagree with my Falcon case? At heart, aren't they the same case?

A better question is, how isn't it scummy?

Well, as with most scum cases that are longer than 1-2 sentences I think you have a lot of meaningless fluff in there trying to make it look more considered and developed than it is. I feel like the core issues are best summed up as;

Playstyle (which I don't find scummy)
Poor use of buzzword (both in definition and even including it...of course I would counter 'buzzword' is a buzzword on site now...and also don't agree with your issue here)
Fishing (agreed)
Delay seek for Mafia wagon (agreed...though I'll admit the wine on this one bugs me, because probably this does help scum, but there's the question of if they'd delay or bus at this stage...maybe do both and see what happens?)

I guess the worst thing I could say about Titus is that there was the delay attempt *after* Falcon had described a delay plan, and I'll admit I suspect most scum to be more willing to 2nd a plan that will help them rather than to advance a plan that would help them.

Can you address the point I noted about how similar your Titus issues are to my Falcon issues?

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That actually does justify his question more.

Why don't people tell me the simple things and instead go right to 'meta!' as opposed to 'blatant evidence in thread'?

[Casso the King of Seals]

I asked people for a number of opinions, even opinions on players I had expressed opinions on. Why is your name the special one?

[Casso the King of Seals]

And for a sidestep - you still didn't get around to telling me how Nacho and I hadn't discussed you.

[Casso the King of Seals]

If the face is to me - I already responded to that though extensively, so if you wanted to talk about it respond to my response - because it's there. Read m0ar.
If the face was to goodmorning for repeating your stance...I don't really get the point.
[/quote]

I am saying that Titus pushed off on this post specifically over any other from the recent past. Rather than attempt to engage in any sort of discussion, she says "you are fencesitting and that is bad". There's no analysis or even a pretension of giving a Smurf about the issue. There's no questioning, there's no addressing of what she thinks he's fencesitting on exactly.
She picked this post of all posts, and yet had nothing even remotely interesting to add to the discussion.

I can agree it wasn't that interesting...but, I dunno about you, but as far as this game goes? I *really* shouldn't try to use 'post I consider useless' as a scumtell. In a tighter game I guess I'd probably agree and even push over it, but I am just too burnt out from this sucker to try to figure out a useless town post from a useless scum post. I'll be honest, I consider your response of 'baaaw, Titus is scummy!' to be bad in the exact same way you're saying that this post is bad and for the same reasons. Pot and kettle and all that, and I don't think it's worthwhile as a tell.

As to your point, Muffin didn't abdicate responsibility so much as admit a present sense of uncertainty, based on the lack of evidence on your slot either way.
He didn't say he was stopping trying to read you. He said he couldn't make a coherent case at this time.

I disagree here also. Falcon didn't abdicate responsibility with reading me because he at least claimed he could read the slot through Nacho (I'll admit I think that feels weak simply because...well, there's a lot of Nacho to read and if he was going to get a read then...pony up big man.)
Muffin didn't do that, he basically said 'my case is gut and I don't feel like debating it with geist because I think their case is gut too and I suppose we just disagree' and he does this...as part of a stated push on this slot.

So, he thinks we're scummy.
He's going to vote us.
He's not going to try to explain the case beyond 'gut'
He is going to attack us for...well, what is in my opinion an action he decided happened with no evidence to support him.
And he's okay with that as the way of life in this reality.
I think that's abdicating everything and the kitchen sink - where do you see him owning to anything besides 'I want to lynch them'?

I certainly think so.

Yeah, but I see no evidence to support one stance over the other.

Again, this was her big opening post, and it's useless masquerading as content.

I do not wish to argue that the post was good. I just tend to consider useless opening posts as null. Frankly I don't like it when people call a spiffy looking replace in post to be 'so town!' either, so maybe this is just a thing between us, but I don't think enough has been seen to call *that post* scummy.

I don't think of Titus as a lazy player at all. Me? Definitely. Titus? I've not seen it.

What game(s) are you using for this stance?

and the fact that there is already knowledge of at least 2 Masons' existence.

You might be selling me with this one.
But Nacho wants to debate in walls every time we talk Cephrir, so I may let him field that. I don't think ti will fly far though.

I am not the biggest fan that the core of the difference between the two actions is 'I was already scum reading one slot and not so much the other' though. A scum tell should either be an issue or not regardless of past concept of a slot. You can and should assess motive, but prior read shouldn't come into it in my opinion. Scum players don't usually gak up a lot, they gak up a small handful of times a day and you need to spot them at that point.

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Well...whatever, I think the post is still legible.

Besides, only goodmorning will read it anyway.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Thor, Iso yourself. Nacho has made a town-case on F-16

Nacho has asked me to develop my reads for discussion in our QT.
I don't care what Nacho's independant reads are until we reach that stage, my purpose here is to develop mine and I refuse to read the game to do so, and think I get better reads via interaction anyway.

Has anyone found out why bert and cephrir were forcibly removed from the game? They were two people I had suspicions on and suddenly they are out, it feels off.

I think seeking that info lies along the path of madness. Also, potential replacement.

you still didn't get around to telling me how Nacho and I hadn't discussed you.

ok. where are you at with your read on me?

I lean you scummy.

You still didn't get around to telling me how Nacho and I hadn't discussed you.

You seem so laid back and apologetic in these two posts but why...

With Norklaz being Llama I'll second that question. Town Llama is not a laid back Llama in my experience.

So you think "I want to lynch them" isn't a strong enough stance in and of itself? I disagree.

When the question is 'why should we lynch them' then no, no it isn't.

I'm not looking for spiffy here. I'm looking for "in some way useful, even if only vaguely."

To toss back your odd double standards at you again.
He offered his opinion on an action and expressed his belief of what alignment it meant the player in question was. To a certain extent, that is the core definition of 'useful' in a scumhunting sense.

Why is it he can call something out without a well defended stance equates to him being scummy, but Muffin does the same and you're...just sorta fine with it. I feel like the issue is deeper explanation and I really think you are applying two different standards in how you approach it.

Games I watched:
N1408 - reasonably active, reasonably informative
Games I was dead in:
O496 - probably the most active person alive after her replace-in, also did most of the setup spec work
Games I was alive in:
O526 - despite replacing in and being lynched D1, had 100+ posts. Granted that D1 was pretty long, but only 5 people posted more.

With Titus' reply to this now, I'd like to see that addressed between the two of you.
I will say, at least for me, active and lazy are two different things. I am an active poster, but I am a lazy poster.

Nacho, Thor, SH, who fools you as scum? I doubt you both are scum but I would expect scum to go onto the next high town wagon cuz deadline.

To the best of my awareness no one particularly 'fools' me as scum.
On the same note, I also am unaware of anyone who claims I can read them highly accurately as well.
I do seem to have people agree that I do not have bad reads.

My scumhunting quality appears to hold on a certain level, and though I adjust tells for given players I don't really have custom methods on anyone either. Just as I am apparently hard to meta, I also don't really meta back.

I am sure Nacho has a list on both sides dozens of names long though. So, I think you'll be wanting his answer.

ow much of the thread have you read, and how much do you intend to read?

*Derp.

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Would appreciate a summary, given that this monstrosity is 6000 posts long.

We have claimed masons and a 'no gun' result from a now proven Gunsmith.
We have a claimed Doc who also claims to have targeted someone other than Gunsmith last night.
Gunsmith died.
The claimed Doc has posted about cheese since then.
Some people seem to actually think we shouldn't lynch said claimed Doc today. They want to "use our time".
Mostly we are "using the time" to debate which, if any, of them are also scum.

If you read only the last 30 or so pages you can receive the bulk of this info with names and some interactions attached to it and be basically up to speed.

Then a few reads might be sexy.

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@Everyone, who are the 3 most likely scum in this group?

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pieguyn
BROseidon
Norlkaz
Ser Arthur Dayne
zMuffinMan
Titus

Is this your PoE list?

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You still didn't get around to telling me how Nacho and I hadn't discussed you.

what is the point of this question? what does it achieve? you should really

know

why i thought this since i've already explained it.

The point of the question is to get an answer.
It will achieve me making you look scummy because you put words into my mouth and then tried to attack me over it, and then people will lynch you and I'll be a stallion in bed with my girl.
I don't think I should

know

why because I don't think you've answered the question, which is why I keep asking it.

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Is Thor really ever this town?
Because he looks town as shit here.

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Nacho, I am scumreading you because your reads are too PC (politically correct). You have the read that you

have

to have in order to not set off alarm bells for players like ffery. There is nothing new and exciting about them.

I seriously hope someone like Regfan replaces in.

If I have to have reads, I have to have them because I'd have them as town. My reads being this politically correct mean that I'm either town or scum playing out of my fucking mind.

I consider his entire body of work to get a read on him and that'll take a while to develop.

My body of work is fucking massive right now; get that read on me and talk to me about it because the tools for developing it are only a click away.

Nacho in my experience doesn't usually bus but there are a few markers I look for regarding how and who he busses.

CES called me a turbo-busser once!

This reminds me of your oh-so-clueless entrance to the asoiaf game.

I don't think being clueless is a scumtell for Titus.
I liked the entrance excitement; felt like a townie getting into the thread and opening up a brand new puzzle.

Also, Nacho we need to talk.

I'm here.

A. Muffin wasn't particularly fencesitting.

So? It's fairly easy to see how she drew that conclusion.

B. Buzzword scumhunting rather than any real contribution.

Welcome to Titus.

C. Fails to demonstrate that fencesitting from Muffin would be cause for concern.

D. If it weren't Titus, the lack of a vote here would also be a bit pingy.

But it is Titus, so that doesn't matter worth shit.

A. If you're reading closely enough to know where the wagons are, you're reading closely enough to see people's stated reasoning for them.

Not really. SC lynch happened because it was the culmination of paranoia earlier in the day + deadline rush. This resulted in a shit ton of naked votes on SC, which doesn't explain anything and requires context.

B. The last time I saw a post like this (vague shame you lynched a pr boo), I made it. It was my first Scum game. Does it have to come from Scum? No. Does it look like it? Oh yes.

This is fair, but also strikes me as something Titus-esque to say.

C. With such concern about SSK's targets, why not just ISO him and see if he had claimed them? The people in this game are competent enough to have forced the issue if he hadn't, so the info was obviously going to be there. His ISO is only 77 posts so it's not like it would take long, and in any case Ctrl+f "protect" shows it within four results.

This point is generally bad.

D. I also enjoy the "I would love for a tracker or watcher to out themselves! BUT SUBTLY"
i. I mean, any outing in this playerlist, especially with heavy analytics like ffery alive, would be about as subtle as a cat in a kitchen.

Do you think Titus would fish so blatantly? I don't agree with Thor that it feels like she's trying to slow down the wagon and fish out another PR; she's not that type of scum player at all.

Nacho, Thor, SH, who fools you as scum?

Generic, BRO, GiF. Muffin could probably fool me, but I think he's having a bad game.

Also I think muffin is town
Yay I finally have a read on him

Why?
Is it because he doesn't use proper capitalization?

totally null

Same here!

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Most of your attacks seemed to be on the line of town-Desp not apathetically letting you die but it wasn't a really strong point.

My initial push on Desperado was because he had largely faded away and I wanted to interact with him and see if I could firm up my read of him a bit. The response that I got back was "whee, OMGUS!" which didn't strike me as a town-Desp way to approach a read on me. We've played 10+ games together, we had either hydra'ed together by that point or talked a lot about it, and in all games, Desperado normally uses me as a sounding board and keeps me as an important part of his game when he plays, similar to ffery playstyle. His push on me without addressing anything I've posted or talking to me at all was weird as hell; it read like he was trying not to repeat the Xenogears mistake of not capitalizing on a Nacho-lynch when it was possible and not at all like he was approaching me or trying to read me. When my push on him intensified a bit, no response; townDesp when town gives

something

when he's pushed, but here, nothing.

It seemed like your case against zMuffinman was so much stronger and took up a lot more of your time.

I was at a brick wall with Muffin. I wasn't getting any traction, looked for something different instead.

You are defending Titus pretty hard based on mostly null-tells. There was nothing about her that I found town, at least not yet. Is this influenced by your Cephrir townread and are you giving her more of a benefit of the doubt due to her predecessor?

I find most of her posting null, but I still think the slot is town. I'm defending her so hard because GM's current case on her is composed entirely of null tells and Titus has a way of attracting wagons to herself.

Who are your best picks for a scumteam right now? What do you think of my assessment of Norl/Llamarble?

SAD-SSK-Muffin-BRO-Norlkaz, with one of Generic/Titus maaaaaaybe going into one of those slots but they seem pretty fucking town at the moment. My latest basis for reading Llamarble is give him plenty of room to town, which he simply hasn't done at all. I feel we will be in a great position after clearing out SAD-SSK and maybe Muffin, and if the whole "I will town later" and doing nothing of note continues to that point then I will switch out of "giving him room" mode and start lynching the hell out of him. I noted your meta on Cephrir but I don't think the "unnatural expression of surprise" point was a good one.

Nacho, Titus got past you in the asoiaf game. What do you see in her opening posts that makes you think this is not scum-Titus?

I thought Titus was scum for a good portion of the game (all of it?). I don't really have a good read on Titus at the moment, but Cephrir still seemed town.

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If you don't really have a good read on Titus, why interrupt GM's line of questioning rather than let Titus answer for herself and see how she responds? I haven't finished reading ASOIAF yet but from what I gathered, it seems that Cephrir has fooled you there as well. Why wouldn't you be wary enough of the slot to at least let GM sort Titus out for herself?

What was the basis for your scumread on BRO?

I don't see the sorting process going anywhere interesting and noticed Thor asked for my comments on the exchange. I still have my weariness about the slot and will likely put that to rest by waiting for Titus to get caught up and see how she handles things when she's actually caught up. Do you think that goodmorning's points on Titus are good? Do they convince you at all?

What was the basis for your scumread on BRO?

Lack of any significant towniness. I think Muffin's point that this is different from the other two times I saw him as scum, that he's into image cultivation and all that jazz, but he still hasn't really done anything and I don't find apathetic posting particularly hard to fake and a strong indication of being town, whereas with most other people in this game I can point to smoking guns and gorgeous bodies of work.

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In 4725, you say that the major reason that you were reading Cephrir town was completely wrong and completely faked. How did that read come back? Did Cephrir's defense of you and saying that he will allow himself to get lynched in your place the sole or primary reason for the resurgence of your townread?

Cephrir read ended up good. I was still feeling Cephrir town after I went through Cephrir's posts in ASOIAF and got general vibes from it. The defense was a primary resurgence for a townread, yes. Do you think it's a faulty one?

Your reads post looks a lot different from the one in Perpetual MYLO in that you have no scumreads to which you can point out and strongly say that you are scumreading them. It seems like you are townreading almost everyone while pointing out small concerns from your scumreads. For nearly everyone, you made sure to point out some town things they did. Why is it that you are not confident in any of your scumreads to the extent you were in other town games I've played with you (BB:HoH and Hunterx being a few examples of games of similar size)?

I'm happy lynching SAD. I'm happy lynching SSK. After that, things get a bit dicey. Perpetual MyLo was a perfect storm where I had ffery to flesh things out behind the scenes and we work absolutely excellently together, I was under absolutely insane pressure from wanting the first game we played together to be a good one and crazy amounts of pressure with the person I know best on the site rolling scum and us having a very strong read on them being scum, which sort of helped the rest of the scumteam fall out. This game, we have SSK pegged pretty much by nothing but luck, SAD pegged fairly solidly, and then this weird middle ground where I have pretty solid townreads on very strong scum players and not so strong scumreads on different good players, meaning that there's a little wait and see approach to wait either for the good scum players to become insanely town (like what's happening with Cephrir's slot, Titus push on the softclaiming vig is town as hell) or for the not so strong scumreads to become strong scumreads or town it up (Llamarble).

Interesting, why has my name suddenly popped into reckoning for you?

It's not exactly into reckoning for me, but I'm not exactly comfortable with you being at the top of the top when you tell me oh so often how I will never manage to catch you as scum.

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Do you have a scumread on Titus based on her posting?

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Yeah. I felt that it was unreasonable and manipulative and definitely not something outside the range of capabilities for a player like Cephrir.

To address the unreasonable bit, Cephrir just got done playing a game with me where I was incredibly, incredibly town and poured heart and soul into game and yet was still suspected randomly for shitty reasons. Here, the reasons why paranoia is bubbling up around me are even worse than they were there which has the tendency to sort of intensify feelings to the extreme, meaning he sees a wagon forming on me when I'm playing beyond what I've ever played as scum. I can see him producing strong feelings about that play.

Next, about Cephrir's capabilities. He is an extremely strong scum player. That does not mean he is invincible/capable of faking anything ever as scum, nor would he. As a scum player, he is conservative; he doesn't take any extremely big risks in his day play because his day play is so consistently solid. In League of Legends, he claimed his own role and real actions because he didn't want to be caught out. In ASOIAF, his largest misstep was not hard counterclaiming Benmage even though he totally could have done so pretty fucking safely and for infinite towncred. In heat of the moment places here, Cephrir has played better and riskier. He voted us when he thought we called him scum and it was much more fluid than it was in ASOIAF. He made the pseudo sacrifice play, which again, seems too loud and risky to be coming from the normal Cephrir scumgame that I'm used to.

I mean, what if I just turned on him immediately? I don't expect Cephrir to be able to read me well. He wasn't in a position where he could have been lynched in that scenario, but making such a dramatic call that close to deadline is essentially throwing up red flags everywhere and holding up a sign that says "LYNCH ME", and this was at a time when either Desperado or I were shoe-ins for the lynch.

I've thought on this a bit, and I still don't believe it's a scum move. Sell me otherwise.

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I don't see Titus's push on the soft-claiming vig as alignment indicative at all. Explain why it is town.

It's aggressive as hell and stubborn as hell on a lynch that is obviously not going to go through with reasoning that is not going to push the lynch through, but it all feels very Titus-esque. The biggest problem I've noticed in Titus's scumgame is that she's a bit more susceptible to influences as scum, which means she's a little more agreeable and it leaves her less likely to get lynched. Here she's on the first train out of paranoia station, she has plenty of facts disproving her generally solidly (including a flipped vig) but she hasn't been discouraged in the slightest. That is Titus town.

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IIRC Titus got pretty vehement about some pushes that made NO SENSE OF ANY KIND in ASOIAF. I was impressed by how well he pulled off the earnest-derp.
Specifically the "HOW DOES THIS GUY KNOW HOW MANY SCUM THERE ARE" thing which I'm pretty sure continued even after the townflipped census taker was pointed out for him.

That was Titus vying for towncred by trying to pretend she didn't know how many scum there were.
There is no towncred to be gained with this route.

[Casso the King of Seals]

The best honest derp Titus managed to fake in ASOIAF was third party suspicion on me but I'm guessing that was Titus legitimately getting suspicious of me and yet knowing that I wasn't scum.

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1) You soft-claim vig.
2) You claim VT.
3) When called out, you deny the soft-claim of Vig.
4) You self-voted allegedly trying to draw the wagon to yourself. This suggests scum bc it suggests someone piss poorly white knighting SC.

like just look at this

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There is in this one!

Not all scum qts have strong summaries so yeah not a town tell. Scum without daytalk, and poor night summary is very possible even with a replace in fumbling. Don't use that as a towntell. If you do, when I am scum, I will burn you. I love burning outside tells like that.

That is Titus rejecting a townread on someone else when she could easily be townread for similar reasons. I don't think that's a bad thing.

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Nacho also needs to explain the difference between this muffin and FEA muffin.

Game state. I can see Muffin going inactive as hell in FEA because he was pretty much confirmed town to most people with brains, he has three times the posts in FEA he had here, started out 280+ pages behind and thus was never going to catch up. Those are the big ones.

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For instance, if I am townreading Player X, I'd try to persuade other people into understanding why Player X is town. I'd also want to be around to defend Player X in the future. By offering myself to be lynched, I set the stage for a mislynch on me and a potential mislynch on Player X somewhere down the line. I'd absolutely want to be alive later on so I can defend Player X from further silly attacks or at the very least be someone who would not vote Player X. So, we can agree that Cephrir's move was illogical from a town standpoint.

Sure, it's illogical from a basic town standpoint.
But for someone who doesn't consider themselves a strong town player, who believes a lot in the momentum of a game, who believes he's going to be a mislynch somewhere down the road, it starts to make a little more sense.

He's already seen GIF tell people to lynch him and be townread for that. He's learned that asking to be lynched is at worst null.

I don't think this is a fair point. One player getting townread for what was a very context specific situation doesn't mean that all people who drop that tell will have it taken the same way, and hence risk. Cephrir-scum pulls a strong move like that, I get paranoid of him and flashwagon him, I'm no longer a very viable mislynch and he's dead.

I don't believe Cephrir is averse to taking risks. In the Red Wine game which I was spectating, he FOSed ffery and Albert B. Rampage harshly criticizing them. He bussed his buddy Espeonage writing up a case on him. He certainly takes risks so I am not writing off risk-taking as a towntell.

These aren't risks like the risks I'm talking about. Bussing a partner is very calculated risk; you put yourself in a worse position numberwise and then shift to a better position day play wise. When you attack a strong town player, there's a risk that they will turn on you because you should be townreading them (a risk that was mitigated by Cabd scumreading ffery and Cephrir being famously paranoid of ffery in the past), but you're also able to sew in some paranoia and also get townread for attacking strong players. This type of risk gave him little to no reward (makes us look like partners in case of a Cephrir scumflip in the case of an extremely dumb town, makes me defend him more strongly but I might get mislynched anyways + he's not close to sure on that), especially when you consider that a scumCephrir doesn't need me to survive and thus doesn't need to pull out such risky day play moves when he's already proven he can sufficiently dodge me for a fairly long time without that sort of bullshit.

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And it's not like he did it as a last ditch effort to flip my read on him (which might make sense as a last resort): he did it when I was already townreading him, which means he ran the risk of making me paranoid and losing the support for his greatest supporter, if only for a moment. It's also too strong to take back very easily, so if I were to scumread him for that, he's stuck in an extremely extremely awkward position.

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F-16, Casso thoughts on my zmuffin read

plz don't tell me I revealed it for nothing T_T

The manipulative tone re: me point definitely resonates with me.
I'm glad that you're not townreading him for absolutely no reason like so many others.

I am skimming insanely fast and just want to kill SSK now for a scum lynch and a breather from games.

the issue with nacho is that the way he was sorting me didn't look like anything i'd expect from nacho-town, given his knowledge of my scum game.

you've been repeating this tired old line for a fucking shit ton of pages.
get some better material; you're a better scum player than that.

My vca supposed ssk was scum. I factored that in. I also factored in the known townies.

oh god this hurts my eyes

So my big question is why the fuck did that wagon dissolve? Voila.. More vidence you are scum.

I dissolved that wagon.
And also Sakura looked town; why would the wagon be more likely to disintegrate if she was scum?

Can't really decide between bad or scum

for a minute there I thought you were talking about SSK and I almost imploded

i actually really disliked my play in cash cabd

And yet, it was leagues better than play here.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Vote: SSK

[Casso the King of Seals]

Vote: Ser Arthur Dayne

Let's keep this momentum switch going.

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Who is your #1 target for the day, Generic?

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Is this still residual Cephrir suspicion, or is this based on Titus posting as well?

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I just can't see the town in her play. She seems to focus on things that are either disproved or irrelevent, that feels like trying to avoid having to do any real hunting.

I thought I was gonna die last night, and it would have given me confirmation on my reads... But that was the ego more than anything I think. And also of course no use to the game as I wouldn't be in it anymore.

Why SAD over others?

What motive does scum have to focus on disproved or irrelevant things? Do you think she's trying to play dumb, do you think she's trying to push through a mislynch, what?

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I promised this yesterday.

Vote: Sakura

And so I shall.

You could also be double the useful and vote SAD.

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You guys do realize the MafiaSSK wagon literally gives 0 percent of actual helpful information right?

This is just wrong considering all scum lynches help achieve the town wincon.

Like literally there is no way to analyze anything of his wagon no matter the flip when he's lynched in half a day.

The one thing I got from this is Arthur is probably scum.

So who's good enough to analyze mafiassk's whopping 34 posts for scum-relationship tells if he flips scum?

Why does this matter? There's no downside to lynching scum at all.

How do we have 145+ pages of Day 1 and then we push the most useless wagon.

Like if mafiassk flips scum the ONLY thing we gain is one scum down (which I mean is kinda good but it's literally a random chance right now). We gain no other helpful info, and we start day 2 with no lynch info whatsoever.

This seems especially bad in light of Tammy pointing out that Arthur isn't an information lynch person. Will have to investigate that further.

Also feel free to analyze the "strong" wagons but you'll be literally analyzing them blindly because the mafiassk lynch/flip and the wagon relates a whole total of 0 percent to those "strong" wagons.

More emphasis on wagon analysis and less on SSK's actual possible affiliation.

How will you be doing things differently if mafiassk flips town? What if he flips scum? How will you take into account his flip and/or his wagon and how will you use this new found piece of information?

More flawed analysis that misses the point that lynching any scum is good.

Also you are literally wanting to wagon mafiassk because he's likely not to be here and thus not likely to pull an AtE like Sakura just did, and thus you won't feel bad if his wagon flips town.

This is a decent point but I don't like the continued defense. Arthur hasn't defended anyone else like this.

I don't actually do analysis before a flip, but I would imagine if she were to flip scum I would learn a lot more from her 174 posts than from mafiassk's 34 posts if he were to flip scum

More pushing of the "info-lynch" angle trying to get Sakura lynched instead of SSK.

I'll be out the whole day tomorrow, and

might

check in before the deadline on the 26th, but in case I don't.

Unvote
Vote: MafiaSSK

Feel free to call this bussing if he flips town. That's likely to be the only piece of information you'll get from the wagon *shrug*

This feels awkward. I do believe he is bussing.

This case was decent, and it isn't even mine!

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Ser Arthur Dayne - Initial read on Tammy is kind of weird (Tammy is highly town unless she can emulate her usual town aggressiveness): SAD hasn't played with Tammy for a while, sure, but I'm fairly sure he played with her on Westeros longer than anyone else in the game, so the bit of paranoia that she could fake what she showed here seemed disingenuous. His push on pie is weird and not really representative of what pie was doing (and I don't like his backtrack when he goes from "pie is doing zero scumhunting" to "his scumreads are fake/he's tunneling"). Him pushing pie pretty strongly and going "meh, can't get a read on you" was strange but probably not alignment indicative, and his later pushes on Muffin/us where he votes us then doesn't comment on the vote at all both feel weird (I think I read something about him explaining the reasons he did this somewhere). I'm still weirded about by his defense of SSK on the basis of being not good information; I like that he was so honest about the associative tell thing (yeah, it was a lie all along), but I'm not really sure what he was supposed to defend himself with as scum and that honestly doesn't look so great when his initial reaction was to lie about it, which would be for SAD-town. His switch on SSK also seems like an odd position to take; he doesn't seem to be getting boxed in by POE and I don't follow his case on SSK today, so the newfound scumread on him seems opportunistic. I like his snark, and I'm inclined to believe him when he says he wouldn't kill Tammy because he joined this game to play for her, but it's not enough for a townread.

This case is also pretty fucking great.

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Unvote
Vote: Desperado

I'm just going to go ahead and pretend I agree with the "scumslip" or whatever other reason people are voting him right now, mainly because I have an independent scumread on him. But it'll look better if it looks like I'm conforming to the town's wishes.

There's also a trend of SAD pushing Bert and tunneling the hell out of him and yet being happy to vote with the flavor of the day whenever it comes around. This happened here with Desperado, and is implied in his end of day posting yesterday that it will happen with Titus if the Titus wagon manages to grow.

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There's also a matter of his Bert tunneling in general; it's shallow as hell and it essentially involves SAD quoting a Bert post, responding with "this is so scummy, make it die" and then going back to the shadows of scumfuckery. It's extremely similar to the Shadoweh-Bert tunneling which attacks the hell out of him because he's easy to attack, complain about how he's not getting lynched fast enough, proceed to do nothing else.

That enough case for you, Generic/Titus?

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Look who is pushing it. Casso.

I know you shouldn't expect long cases from me, and I know Nacho did type up a case...so...? What is the purpose of this comment?

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And Nacho rage explodes whilst I type.
Go figure.

In that case, I second him and I retreat to the shadows.

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Still doesn't change the fact I want to hear from SAD.

I'm fairly confident that putting him to L-3 isn't going to prevent him from talking.

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Although I guess I probably haven't given sufficient thought to the theory of SAD being a triple hated beloved princess...

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It won't prevent them from talking, either. Unless they're lovers with SAD the triple hated beloved princess, that is.

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What does it matter if my vote is down now or later?

If you wanted intent up vote I've already said I had suspicions of SAD and f16s case was good.

It doesn't matter at all, in any logical sense. I like to see big bandwagons on scum and I like scum to see big bandwagons on themselves and then I like to lynch them shortly after.

Why are you holding onto your vote?

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Look who is pushing it. Casso.

I know you shouldn't expect long cases from me, and I know Nacho did type up a case...so...? What is the purpose of this comment?

I used to think that us syncing up was going to be a process that spanned over multiple games but it seems it's finally happening.

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Hi Nacho.

After SAD who's next?

Muffin. His play in this game has been absolute shit, centered around one read that he's not sure of, and the "it's the holidays and site has been down" excuse has worn out a long time ago; the explanation that makes the most sense for me with regards to how beneath his level is scum apathy in drawing scum three times in a row with a player list like this one.

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Why hold my vote?

Cos it's you juggernauting the wagon.

So essentially you're not voting to spite me?
Or are you paranoid of me and somehow believe that holding back from putting SAD at L-3 will undermine my scum plan?

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So, I quickly skimmed Arthur's games and I didn't find anyone where he argued for lynches based on information. Arthur, can you point out specific instances where you've always been an "info lynch person or anytime where you felt that the lynch that yields more information is the good one?

So who's good enough to analyze mafiassk's whopping 34 posts for scum-relationship tells if he flips scum?

Tammy responded to this defense as if this wasn't something you cared about normally, which alarmed me. Why did you start caring about them here?

VOTE: SAD

Umm, I actually always cared about them?

R u kidding me
We don't need associate tells to hunt scum

Okay feel free to go hunt by magic but I'd MUCH prefer a wagon that actually yields info.

When did you become a big ol information lynch person? I'm pretty sure I remember that once when I was scum and lurked and trolled, you declared that were going to travel to everyone's houses and type my name in to ensure my lynch when there was literally no information to be gained from my lynch because i didn't do anything.

I mean I get it if you're town reading SSK, but other than that when did you do big associative tells for scum hunting?

The difference between the game she mentioned here and this one is in that one I had a SCUMREAD on her. I have no problem with lynching one of my scumreads when it will yield no information. I do, however, have a problem with lynching a completely null read that will yield no information, especially when there were so many better lynch options. In the particular game she mentioned, I believe she was by far the best lynch option of the day, and again, I was scumreading her.

To address zMuffin's point about why he would claim something so easily falsifiable, Arthur didn't make this claim until D2 until after Tammy was nk'd. It wouldn't be easily falsifiable by others because it would require quite a bit of work to figure out.

I am cool with Arthur lynch after we've heard from others but I'd much rather lynch Titus.

Push Titus, then.

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I just can't see the town in her play. She seems to focus on things that are either disproved or irrelevent, that feels like trying to avoid having to do any real hunting.

I thought I was gonna die last night, and it would have given me confirmation on my reads... But that was the ego more than anything I think. And also of course no use to the game as I wouldn't be in it anymore.

Why SAD over others?

What motive does scum have to focus on disproved or irrelevant things? Do you think she's trying to play dumb, do you think she's trying to push through a mislynch, what?

So, she can confirm to the notion of "stubborn town-Titus" that never lets go of her position that you described in ASOIAF?

That's probably her angle if scum. I would be pretty fucking impressed if she could take my advice to heart that quickly, though.

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There's also a matter of his Bert tunneling in general; it's shallow as hell and it essentially involves SAD quoting a Bert post, responding with "this is so scummy, make it die" and then going back to the shadows of scumfuckery. It's extremely similar to the Shadoweh-Bert tunneling which attacks the hell out of him because he's easy to attack, complain about how he's not getting lynched fast enough, proceed to do nothing else.

That enough case for you, Generic/Titus?

No. If it was this shallow, you'd quote it and show that. A man of few words is not shallow. SAD may be scum but this is bad.

It's bad because I didn't quote things? Let me get to rectifying that then.

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Be back later. I suggest leaving SSK alive as he doesn't need to be lynched until it's actually MYLO/LYLO. Wasting a lynch on him now is pretty pointless, we already know what he will flip. Try someone else that's suspicious so we have more info tomorrow.

Vote: Bert

bert y u so fake

This is shallow.

On the other hand, SAD is laying low and voting me LOL and not saying much else other than attaching "scum" to every post I make.

Yes.

This is shallow.

I've been trying to suggest pushing someone not named SSK, since SSK flip gives us no info, but it went nowhere

lol

This is shallow.

Titus, do you disagree with that? Why didn't you go into his ISO and look for yourself?

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That's probably her angle if scum. I would be pretty fucking impressed if she could take my advice to heart that quickly, though.

if she's scum it'd make sense considering she didn't have much time to adjust her scumgame. she tried to replicate her town meta but since she didn't have any time to entirely change her play the way she was so stubborn about weird things came across as forced. do you disagree?

I do because it doesn't feel forced to me. She usually gets stuck on weird things as either alignment, but the soft claiming vig to vanilla theory is beyond insane and yet somehow still in the range of Titus-strange. It could probably be faked, fair, but I don't think the added layers of ridiculousness make it scummy because Titus occasionally does have ridiculous theories such as this one.

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btw my case on SAD is p much his BS defense of SSK. he claimed he didn't want a SSK lynch bc "lack of information", but then other people got lynched and he completely forgot all about getting information from lynches. when pressured, he basically just started flip flopping and making shit up to cover up his stance on SSK. in 4300 he misreps "information" as entirely consisting of the wagon from the SC lynch, when there's way more information to be gained. he KNOWS this, as indicated by 4303:

Now I can easily speculate why these two are excempt from suspicion but I want SADs reasons and his thoughts on their connection to the SC wagon.

Please abort any thought of analyzing the SC wagon THAT GOT HIM LYNCHED and instead look for who was pushing him earlier in the day (which I want to do when I have a bit of time).

not to mention he never actually did this. conclusion: he was just making shit up to cover up his BS defense. it was bad enough before SSK was confscum and SSK's scumflip reaffirms that his defense was BS (especially the fact he flipped encryptor). he also accused me of being scum for a "generic OMGUS" by pushing back on people who accused me, but then did the same thing himself in 4114. his reads on me (null -> town -> scum -> town) and zmuffin make no sense and he still hasn't explained either of them. also there's the whole associatives with zmuffin although that's predicated on zmuffin-scum

I agree with zmuffin that the wagon that got sc lynched has little info. Yet, the fact he did not do said analysis (assuming without searching) that would be scummy as you should be providing info promised.

It is the same thing part of my issues with Prophy are for.

Remind me of your issues with Prophy. Why did you drop the BBQ push?

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That's probably her angle if scum. I would be pretty fucking impressed if she could take my advice to heart that quickly, though.

if she's scum it'd make sense considering she didn't have much time to adjust her scumgame. she tried to replicate her town meta but since she didn't have any time to entirely change her play the way she was so stubborn about weird things came across as forced. do you disagree?

I do because it doesn't feel forced to me. She usually gets stuck on weird things as either alignment, but the soft claiming vig to vanilla theory is beyond insane and yet somehow still in the range of Titus-strange. It could probably be faked, fair, but I don't think the added layers of ridiculousness make it scummy because Titus occasionally does have ridiculous theories such as this one.

Scum set up fakeclaims all the time. There's nothing invalid about the theory. Most don't think it is sound.

Fact: Two vigs is remote.
Fact: A vig is dead.
Conclusion: Anyone else softclaiming vig is scum, laying a fake claim.


No one else happens to think thay's what he was doing but me.

That's true. I happen to think that scum wouldn't attempt fake claiming vig when the real vig was lynched Day 1 and there have been no extra kills since, but maybe I'm just crazy as hell.

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btw my case on SAD is p much his BS defense of SSK. he claimed he didn't want a SSK lynch bc "lack of information", but then other people got lynched and he completely forgot all about getting information from lynches. when pressured, he basically just started flip flopping and making shit up to cover up his stance on SSK. in 4300 he misreps "information" as entirely consisting of the wagon from the SC lynch, when there's way more information to be gained. he KNOWS this, as indicated by 4303:

Now I can easily speculate why these two are excempt from suspicion but I want SADs reasons and his thoughts on their connection to the SC wagon.

Please abort any thought of analyzing the SC wagon THAT GOT HIM LYNCHED and instead look for who was pushing him earlier in the day (which I want to do when I have a bit of time).

not to mention he never actually did this. conclusion: he was just making shit up to cover up his BS defense. it was bad enough before SSK was confscum and SSK's scumflip reaffirms that his defense was BS (especially the fact he flipped encryptor). he also accused me of being scum for a "generic OMGUS" by pushing back on people who accused me, but then did the same thing himself in 4114. his reads on me (null -> town -> scum -> town) and zmuffin make no sense and he still hasn't explained either of them. also there's the whole associatives with zmuffin although that's predicated on zmuffin-scum

I agree with zmuffin that the wagon that got sc lynched has little info. Yet, the fact he did not do said analysis (assuming without searching) that would be scummy as you should be providing info promised.

It is the same thing part of my issues with Prophy are for.

Remind me of your issues with Prophy. Why did you drop the BBQ push?

Carryover from Bert (bah hammers+votes+bad vca), plus lack of promised content = Prophy.

I dropped BBQ to a null bc his vca was good. I just won't townread him bc the majorityvus.

You dropped him down because his vca was good? What makes you think he would have bad vca as scum/why does that make him town in the slightest?
And when you say you won't townread him because the majority does, what the hell do you mean by that?

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My gooooodddddd
this game will never eennddddd
I would like to make a request though!

can we keep this day going until at least the 6th? please, please, pretty please?
we could even make the next scum lynch that day, when I'm drunk and posting and stuff. would be the awesomest Birthday present everrrrrr

and me being drunk could result in that transparency everyone is looking for but never, ever sees in Mara-posts... Maybe

Hell no. There is no reason to artificially delay another day; that's what yesterday was for.

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There is no suggestion to quicklynch SAD in any of my posts.
I don't want to wait 11 days to lynch someone for absolutely no reason. Do you?

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My Thorfu vibes are apparently pretty impressive right now.

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Thor, you're no fun :/

Could you at least give me time to do stuff, then?

I wouldn't actually mind a SAD, Titus, or Prophy lynch at this point in time, buuttt I do want to be able to make sure to use whatever time I have since, I feel like this is the day where I'll be performing the best

Go ahead, do your thing. Just don't take 11 days to do it >.>

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There is no suggestion to quicklynch SAD in any of my posts.

Umm...

I don't want to wait 11 days to lynch someone for absolutely no reason. Do you?

That's exactly what you're suggesting in this post.

Not waiting 11 days to lynch someone =\= quicklynching that someone.

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I don't want to wait 11 days to lynch someone

for absolutely no reason.

Do you?

If there's still discussion going on that's benefiting town then I see no reason for us to not discuss.

I wouldn't actually mind a SAD, Titus, or Prophy lynch

Switch Prophy with RC and you got yourself a deal.

Hence the bolded.

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That's probably her angle if scum. I would be pretty fucking impressed if she could take my advice to heart that quickly, though.

if she's scum it'd make sense considering she didn't have much time to adjust her scumgame. she tried to replicate her town meta but since she didn't have any time to entirely change her play the way she was so stubborn about weird things came across as forced. do you disagree?

I do because it doesn't feel forced to me. She usually gets stuck on weird things as either alignment, but the soft claiming vig to vanilla theory is beyond insane and yet somehow still in the range of Titus-strange. It could probably be faked, fair, but I don't think the added layers of ridiculousness make it scummy because Titus occasionally does have ridiculous theories such as this one.

Scum set up fakeclaims all the time. There's nothing invalid about the theory. Most don't think it is sound.

Fact: Two vigs is remote.
Fact: A vig is dead.
Conclusion: Anyone else softclaiming vig is scum, laying a fake claim.


No one else happens to think thay's what he was doing but me.

That's true. I happen to think that scum wouldn't attempt fake claiming vig when the real vig was lynched Day 1 and there have been no extra kills since, but maybe I'm just crazy as hell.

The softclaim was BEFORE SC flipped.


Shutting up on that poin unless someone asks me about that.

Why do you think that they wanted to claim vig as scum when they have no proof proving them a vig + dropped a VT claim in thread shortly after?

Where is your response aiming why you found BBQ's VCA townish?

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Explaining*

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First blush vca on day 1. This does not include day 2.

Major wagons existed on SSK, BBQ, Sakura and F16.

SSK vote parking on BBQ suggests he isn't scum but notably SSK didn't vote BBQ when he could actually be lynched.

F16 stands out because he was a major wagon and his voters were people who I have little problems with.
Sakura's wagon is pretty much the same. Sakura self-voted. Casso really demolished the Sakura wagon with his talk to me unvote. Really, at L minus 1, Sakurahas every incentive she needs to talk to claim.
Sakura vote shifted a lot but was rarely on the SSK wagon, if ever.

The demolition of the SH wagon forced the group to deadline mode. SSK withholds his PR claim long enough to give the group the ability to mislynch. Notably, SH is skipped along with Casso. Bert jumps onto the SC wagon when he could have sheeped the SH wagon.

Right now, VCA without reasons suggests Sakura, SSK scum, weak read on F16. Yet an even weaker one on Prophy. Casso is also not sitting right now, particularly for 3711 through 3715. SSK goes from null to scum very fast.

Korean, I say who the scum are, not who I hope buys it. Either I am right or I am wrong. All the SSK votes do is suggest you are not scum. Vig softclaim strongly suggests you are scum. Take your null and b happy.

Yeah your wagon might have reached 8. The whole point is the scum don't vote each other when they think it can go through. Don't try to force me to townead you. It won't work.

Casso, I don't know why Nero would crumb that. I don't know his scum team, their dynamics, etc. I look at the what, then answer the why.

There are the posts you asked for.

I thought you were townreading BBQ because of some VCA they did and I was wiggling out a bit, this makes a hell of a lot more sense.

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still not a fan of the SAD wagon, i'm looking at SAD/SSK in ISO and the interactions with SSK are almost too blatant to be scum-scum. like, way too blatant.

i have some thoughts about why f16 is thinking about the information thing the wrong way, but SAD can answer that before i talk about what i'm thinking here.

Muffin. His play in this game has been absolute shit, centered around one read that he's not sure of

um... yeah, no. it's not that i'm unsure of the read - i think you're scum, it is the read i'm most sure of in this game and nothing you're doing is changing my mind here - but i know that my reasons for thinking this aren't going to persuade anyone. especially when ffery seems convinced this is your town game, and others are supporting this idea.

i have some time over the next couple days so i can actually do some reading here. i might put effort into making a proper case on you while i'm doing this.

You're not pushing me because you don't think anyone will listen? You never struck me as a Cassandra type.

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Poor Sakie doesn't wanna bus. She doesn't say what interactions. She's basically voting me cuz she doesn't like what I'm saying.

Generic was playing for one more mislynch before he died.

Suppose that I am scum (for sake of argument but I am not), Generic then succeeds in getting me lynched.
Generic then doesn't die immediately. Cowbells cannot die because of the fact it will out Generic as lying.

Scum likely have 1-2 more players. SSK, Generic, Titus, ???, ???. I and SSK are dead. The real jailkeeper can be free to move about, blocking kills and announcing who was jailkept.

Scum are also in a position where they must kill quickly. Yet, Generic cannot be sent for the kill due to the high likelihood of him being jailkept.

The likelihood of RC stopping a kill increases more and more as there are fewer people to pick from.



It's facially implausible Generic would leave his scumteam in that position. Move on Sakura and scumhunt.

I don't think that Generic thought he could get you lynched.

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Cephrir, my prior slot holder, pushes for the confscum and that makes me suspicious F16? Are you high or drunk?

I like the coaching theory even with daytalk. Scum have to interact with each other at some point. Helping scumbuddies diffuse suspicions is good. Also the presence of daytalk is part of the reason I cannot clear KBBQ.

GM, Generic self-hammered before we'll ever know if that was true.

Piegyn, your townblock needs serious work if Bert was in it prior to Prophy replacing in. His posting has sucked compared to his town games. Bert's behavior sucked.

You can't clear BBQ because day talk why again?

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We are good with voting SAD or Titus today.

I know what I want!

Vote: Ser Arthur Dayne