Teleportation Mafia Universe ONE (MAFIA A WINS!)

[elvis_knits]

wahoo!

[elvis_knits]

Me and dgb in the same universe? I hope we don't make it explode!

[elvis_knits]

This is the cool universe.

[elvis_knits]

(razz universe 2)

[elvis_knits]

I am ready, but can I be the one who gets Brad Pitt?

[elvis_knits]

Is this your car, dgb?

[elvis_knits]

So I got a virus on my computer yesterday... and have been dealing with that. I'm trying to get back on the ball with my games now.

[elvis_knits]

Can someone please tell me what has happened so I don't have to read?

[elvis_knits]

What's the strategy?

[elvis_knits]

Day 1 Vote Count

ace5993 ( 0 )
DrippingGoofball ( 2 ) mykonian plum
elvis_knits ( 0 )
evilsnail ( 2 ) DrippingGoofball Albert B. Rampage
farside22 ( 1 ) gayle
fishythefish ( 1 ) Raskol
flareonage ( 1 ) popsofctown
gayle ( 1 ) fishythefish
Albert B. Rampage ( 0 )
mykonian ( 0 )
ojanen ( 0 )
plum ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 1 ) flareonage
Raskol ( 3 ) evilsnail farside22 ojanen
Rhinox ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 3 ) ace5993 elvis_knits Rhinox
Total Votes ( 15 )

With 15 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: 2/8 11am

Okay, so the server is actually working now so I will be catching up.

[elvis_knits]

DGB, help me. I don't want to read 11 pages.

[elvis_knits]

I'm on page 6 and I understand almost none of the strategy talk.

[elvis_knits]

Thoughts:

Gayle wagon was horrible.
A few people talked a lot about strategy which I didn't understand, and a lot of people were silent.
Raskol subtly eggs on the Gayle wagon in 109 without voting her (scummy+)
Pops 129 on flaronage was good
154 evilsnail votes raskol for not voting (yay)
157 myko votes raskol (yay)
DGB not voting is weird

People suspecting me based on lurking makes sense... that is my scum meta. However, I had a virus on my computer and didn't post for a few days, and the site is sucking. Check my posting history.

Anyway... I don't see the evilsnail wagon. Has to do with him answering the question about his scm tells? That's dumb.

vote raskol

Reasons:
1) Involved with strategy discussion but not scum hunting/voting.
2) Adding pressure to horrible gayle wagon without voting.
3) SCUM.

[elvis_knits]

After reading the thread I still can't tell what the strategy is, so can someone tell me.

Pretty please?

[elvis_knits]

Questions: Gayle talking about RVS over stradgy and scum hunting didn't strike you as a bit scummy in the least?

No. My impression was she wanted to play mafia instead of talk about strategy, which is pro-town in my mind. The strategy discussion doesn't seem like it even led anywhere, and a lot of players weren't even participating probably because they didn't know wtf was going on. I don't fault her for wanting to play mafia and disliking the strategy talk. Fixating on her mentioning RVS is kind of blowing that out of proportion. Did she say she didn't want scum hunting? I didn't get that out of her posts.

What's your thoughts on DGB's plays so far?

Not loving it. However, I <3 her.

[elvis_knits]

To be fair, I asked dgb to help me, so her telling me to vote for the player she's voting makes sense, and isn't scummy.

What doesn't make sense to me is why evilsnail is scum.

I don't see how the fact that evilsnail answered the "what are your scum tells" question means that he is scum.

[elvis_knits]

Yeah, that vote doesn't make sense considering his previous posts regarding gayle.

Where are my wag0ners? Come to Raskol!

[elvis_knits]

@pops... he's vitaminR I hear... who is circa my joining date.

@myko... I'm not sure on dgb yet. I want to hear more about why she thinks evil snail is scum b4 i decide.

Also, dgb has almost flawless ability to tell my alignment, so her calling me scum is somewhat of a problem since I'm town. Maybe it's just because of my computer problems and she hasn't seen enough from me? The weird part is that even if she's scum I wouldn't expect her to call me scum. I've been in the situation where she's scum and I think she feels bad about screwing me over like that. Also she probably knows how I love to be buddied and she can get more of my bees with honey. So I'm confused as to her calling me scum. Perhaps she really does think it... indicating she's town? I don't know. It's a mindfuck for me.

[elvis_knits]

ahahaha

What is that I smell? OMGUS?

If you need a wall of quotes/text to point out your flaws, I can do that. (post coming)

Regarding DGB, I'm not trying to waffle. I'm undecided on her. I don't have to be decided on every person at all times. I explained what I am suspicious of (the evilsnail reasoning) and why my read is not clear-cut on her. I am trying to decide, hence my questioning her about evilsnail. And I'm not going to be pushed by you or anyone else to make a decision on her or anyone else.

[elvis_knits]

This is where you add fuel to the Gayle wagon. The reason it's fuel is that you're criticising her with the exact same thing that people are wagoning her for.

There is really nothing I can say to defend myself from "Finding the strategy discussion irritating is scummy". I maintain that it is pointless to continue the strategy discussion.

You would prefer maybe random voting? Jokes about avatars?

Strategy discussion is necessary because what strategy we follow later, if any, will determine how likely it is that we'll reach our win conditions. For that reason, it's kinda important, you know?

In any case, you don't seem to be trying very hard to bring up something different to talk about.

I dislike this post for so many reasons. First of all, it's just a rehash of what pops, farside, and fishy said about Gayle's comments, illustrated here:

As if the strategy discussion created a post restriction that cut off random vote posts anyway.

Gayle isn't making sense about RVS in any way shape for form but I was willing to see how far she goes to hang herself on the issue.

Also, her comment about RVS is blow totally out of proportion. She didn't say that we shouldn't discuss strategy. She said that people had put in their thoughts and discussed it, but that we should move on. Let's look at what she said:

Either way it is left up to the teleporter. If we want a person teleported, we just let the teleporter know and they'll do whatever they want. There is no reason to rig up some system to select the teleportee, because in the end it is up to the teleporter no matter what anyone else does.

The strategies have been presented. The dissents have been presented. Can we move on now?

I think that continuing discussing strategy is pointless. Seems to me that the teleporters will decide for themselves on what to do. You are right in that it is better than discussing nothing, but it feels like the game still hasn't begun because we haven't decided on a strategy. You say that it can be quite the springboard, but I think it will just lead to someone being accused as scum for liking one strategy over another. I'm sure someone with say that is fine, but I'd rather not go down that route.

As for an alternative direction, I'd prefer if the strategy discussion hadn't interrupted the rvs.

I really don't see how this is a scummy POV. Too much strategy talk can interfere with scum hunting. It's a type of IIOA. Gayle correctly encourages us not to overdo the strategy discussion, and people jump down her throat, picking on the RVS comment like it was some sort of venal sin.

So when Raskol chimes in with post 109, echoing the exact sentiments of the three people wagoning her, it is definitely adding support to the sucky Gayle wagon, and in a cowardly way since he's not backing it up with a vote on Gayle. This is a scum move designed to "test the waters" and see if the wagon has legs... see if other people are going to buy this crap. If nobody buys this crap and the wagon fails, Raskol can backpedal (like he's doing now) and say he never thought Gayle was scum. THEN WHY WAS RASKOL USING THE SAME REASONING/ATTACKS AS THE WAGONERS? HMM?

[elvis_knits]

The "claiming town" point is entirely stupid.

1)As far as I know, this "tell" refers to roleclaims. Which mine wasn't.

2)Everyone is going to say they're town no matter if they are or not. It's not crazy.

3)I didn't say I was town in response to pressure, I said I was town as part of my speculation on DGB since she normally has a high success rate for reading my allignment. There was literally no way for me to share my thinking without saying that I am town. Look at the context. Without context, scumtells are entirely useless.

[elvis_knits]

@ UNIVERSE TWO

... Nobody in this universe will help me understand the strategy, or maybe none of us understand the strategy. Please outline the strategy. And please make it simple enough for a monkey to understand.

Thanks.

[elvis_knits]

Though one. I'm still holding elvis under observation, and I'm under the impression that raskol is making himself relatively scarce, which is a bad, bad sign.

DGB, what happened to change your mind between this post (300) and 307 where you call me scum and raskol town?

[elvis_knits]

Elvis just isn't all that impressive.

Good case.

[elvis_knits]

EK what do you think is the best stradegy for how to use the teleporter for this game?

I like the teleport scum and pull town idea.

I'm not clear on the how it all works with which universe finishes first and all that crap. It seems like there are intricacies to how this has to work which I don't get.

[elvis_knits]

I don't understand...

[elvis_knits]

How was my last post somehow anti-town or "not playing to my town meta"?

My early lurking was due to computer virus and the sucky site problems. Since I got a chance to catch up, I have been here, so this BS about me lurking or not playing to my town meta is such crapp. With TWO P's.

[elvis_knits]

Rhinox is underwhelming since his catchup post is just a case about myko (with some sucking up to dgb thrown in). Doesn't seem like he read the thread, but wanted to aim a case at myko.

[elvis_knits]

Rhinox is underwhelming since his catchup post is just a case about myko (with some sucking up to dgb thrown in). Doesn't seem like he read the thread, but wanted to aim a case at myko.

Did you read the thread? I didn't see you do a write up when you came back from your computer issues except to post a case against raskol. It's also part of the reason I find you scum.
No catch up post. Just comments and nothing really of substance except the case on raskol.

I did read the thread farside. I did do a catchup post, and pointed out the things I thought were important. Not all of them had to do with raskol, but a good number of them did... hence why I found him the scummiest and voted him.

[elvis_knits]

Day 1 Vote Count

ace5993 ( 0 )
DrippingGoofball ( 2 ) plum popsofctown
elvis_knits ( 3 ) Raskol Albert B. Rampage farside22
evilsnail ( 1 ) DrippingGoofball
farside22 ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 0 )
flareonage ( 0 )
gayle ( 0 )
Albert B. Rampage ( 0 )
mykonian ( 1 ) Rhinox
ojanen ( 0 )
plum ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 2 ) flareonage gayle
Raskol ( 5 ) evilsnail ojanen elvis_knits mykonian fishythefish
Rhinox ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 1 ) ace5993
Total Votes ( 15 )

With 15 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: 2/8 11am

CSL ace5993 - lurker-N/A

DrippingGoofball - scum or wacky town

elvis_knits - town to the max

evilsnail - prob town since has been attacked with sucky case by dgb which some people bought

farside22 - her usual can't-read-elvis-for-a-hill-of-beans self, maybe town but scumhunting is bad(she was also on sucky galye wagon)

fishythefish - voting rakol is good, voting gayle was fail, verdict is not yet in

flareonage - sucky town

gayle - town

Albert B. Rampage infinis - perhaps scum, I suggest export to the other universe

mykonian - town

ojanen - town

plum - town

popsofctown - not sure... some parts of him I find scummy such as gayle wagon, but I have seen him play scum and this does not remind me of that. As scum I think he's more go with the flow, and friendly to all, which is not what I see here.

Raskol - scum

Rhinox - maybe scum, not enough info yet

[elvis_knits]

No offense I just don't agree with all of your posts.

Also, it's a horrible strategy for any game to hide who we think is town. Scum already can tell who they should NK. And for this game in particular since we have to coordinate with another universe, our reads will help them with pulling.

[elvis_knits]

I think holding back some info on who you have pegged as obvtown is still a concept ahead of its time.

No

[elvis_knits]

I post my reads, and I am not helping?

WTF

[elvis_knits]

I post my reads, and I am not helping?

Er.. how exactly is it supposed to help anything?

This game is all about arriving at a consensus. On who is scum. But also at who is town because that helps you know who to listen to, and who not to listen to.

The scum already can tell who is not suspected by other players, and they can tell who they have to get rid of first (if they feel like the person is a threat to their team or they feel like they cannot attack said person convincingly). So it's not going to help them THAT much to have it out in the open who everyone thinks is town.

But it does help town, because we can start to arrive at a list of players that we want to work with instead of against. I often find that I play better bouncing ideas off somebody that I am pretty sure is town. Because I'm not perfect and it helps me to have someone I think is town maybe reign me in sometimes. If someone I think is town tells me I'm not making sense, I am more apt to rethink that if somebody I think is scum says that.

I also thought it was important to point out people that I think might be town but their reads are bad. Like farside. Every game I have played with her lately she thinks I am scum, except spyrex's game. In spyrex's game she defended me and thought I was town. That's the only game I was scum in. This type of thing is important for people to know.

Also, a good thing this does is force the townier-looking players to take more of a leading role in the game. And if we're wrong in some of our reads, it is easier to spot scumminess if someone is forced to participate a lot and lead the town.

I reject the idea that secrecy is good for a town.

[elvis_knits]

@ myko, why did you pitch a fit when I posted my reads, but said nothing when DGB posted her reads?

[elvis_knits]

Note that I didn't call it scummy. I believed it to be antitown, but I never saw it this way.

DGB, wouldn't it be better to keep this quiet until scum attacks a player perceived towny, after which town reaction makes scum having a hard time talking himself out of it? This in stead of showing scum who they can attack?

I would rather have the scum forced to agree with our town reads and concentrate attacks on themselves and people who look like scum. Their options are limited and increases the chance they have to buss or if we mislynch then they're all on the wagon.

When you're scum, narrowing your lynch pool is death. You need your options open.

[elvis_knits]

@ myko, why did you pitch a fit when I posted my reads, but said nothing when DGB posted her reads?

I'm really starting to think he's scum.

Which is sort embarassing because I just put him down as town.

But, hey, see how post read lists, even when they have errors, help you find scum??

[elvis_knits]

Regarding this slip, myko, can you explain what you supposedly meant if you had written "against scum" instead of "against town"?

How is teleporting scummy players more likely to make the towns in both universes lose?

Even without the slip business, Plum has pointed out that myko has been suggesting not using the teleporting, as it would be too confusing or something, and would somehow make us lose. It's a little ridiculous to suggest that the game mechanic is inherently tilted to hurt the town. I want to hear more about why myko believes this.

My problem with an anti-teleporting stance is that I think scum might be anti-teleporting. Because if their scum team gets split it is PROBABLY bad for them. If both universes agree that we are teleporting players we think are scum and pulling players we think are town, then any teleported player is automatically placed under high scrutiny in the other universe. If they are not lynched immediately, they probably will be before endgame. Not to mention the extra challenge of the scum team playing in both universes while the telported player is alive. It's just all kinds of problems that the team doesn't want. They DO NOT want to be teleported, so I can see scum being anti-teleporting as a strategy.

So I want to hear from myko how anti-teleporting could be pro-town.

(And I also still want to know why you were so against my read list but didn't say anything bad about dgb posting read lists).

[elvis_knits]

unvote, vote Albert Bacon Rampage

[elvis_knits]

I'm sorry but it's hella stupid to for somebody to pre-emptively defend albert's lurking and lack of scum hunting by blaming DGB, who has done nothing to him that I can see. I don't think this would ever be a valid excuse for someone not scumhunting, but particularly in this instance I think it's stupid. I also think people who are discouraging teleportation are anti-town. Scum have more of a reason to dislike telportation, especially since we have decided to try to teleport scummy players.

[elvis_knits]

Myko, I wasn't trying to be roundabout. I was talking about you and only you being hella stupid regarding your defense of albert.

If you are town, you are not helping find scum. You are arguing about stupid things like, that we should not teleport, or we should use it to jettison abr for personality reasons (when actually we should lynch him since he's scummy, or teleport him because he's scummy... not for personality conflicts -- seriously personality conflicts between abr and dgb haven't played a part until you started worrying about it).

[elvis_knits]

Same old yarn ball as always.

I am not particularly difficult to convince people to vote for, contrary to what DGB is implying. And I'm a great scumpartner. I think the last two times ended in a perfect scum win. As town I generally get into the game very slowly...and it becomes more apparent as the days pass whether I'm mafia or not.

Elvis knits is basically looking for any kind of reason to OMGUS right now, so that's who I would vote if I were you guys.

And if you're sitll voting for me...SO WHAT! I'm still a rock star! Nananananana-naaa

Considering you had no reason to vote me... it would be entirely appropriate for me to vote you for that crap move. However, I'm more voting you for your lack of scum hunting in general, a failure of yours that continues.

[elvis_knits]

The thing I said about farside is totally true. And if you think I was implying that farside shouldn't be listened to, atleast in regards to me, you're right. She has no idea how to read me.

[elvis_knits]

The thing I said about farside is totally true. And if you think I was implying that farside shouldn't be listened to, atleast in regards to me, you're right. She has no idea how to read me.

Well then I guess you should listen to me then, since I do.

Apparently not.

Why am I scum, pops?

[elvis_knits]

I am not waffling in every post.

I am not ad homming anyone. When I say farside can't read me, that is not an ad hom attack.

I had low energy at the beginning? I was absent from the entire site because my computer had a virus. Did you check my activity elsewhere??

And the quote that supposedly dripped evil to you... how come you didn't notice it the first time? If it was so blatantly scummy, how come you had to see farside jump on it before you decided to use it against me.

Let me just say this: IF YOU THINK I AM AD-HOMMING PEOPLE, PLEASE CONTACT THE MOD AND GET ME REPLACED. THAT WOULD BE AN INFRACTION OF SITE RULES. IF YOU'RE SERIOUS ABOUT THIS, CONTACT THE MOD.

I CONSIDER IT INSULTING WHEN PEOPLE INCORRECTLY ACCUSE ME OF ADHOM. IF I SAY YOUR IDEA IS STUPID, I AM NOT ADHOMMING YOU, I AM DISAGREEING WITH YOUR IDEA.

[elvis_knits]

Don't forget EK just ignored my post and focused on the farside doesn't know how to read me part.
Doesn't respond to the questions or comments I made in regards to her.

I didn't see anything that hasn't already been covered or wasn't meta-WIFOM bullshit based on my supposed lurking or WIFOM comments about the tone or length of my posts.

[elvis_knits]

Day 1 Vote Count

CSL ( 0 )
DrippingGoofball ( 1 ) mykonian
elvis_knits ( 3 ) Albert B. Rampage farside22 popsofctown
evilsnail ( 0 )
farside22 ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 0 )
flareonage ( 0 )
gayle ( 0 )
Albert B. Rampage ( 2 ) Raskol elvis_knits
mykonian ( 4 ) Rhinox flareonage plum DrippingGoofball
ojanen ( 0 )
plum ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 1 ) gayle
Raskol ( 3 ) evilsnail ojanen fishythefish
Rhinox ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 1 ) CSL
Total Votes ( 15 )

With 15 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: 2/8 11am

Bumping because of the bad voodoo curse.

[elvis_knits]

Still not seeing the reason you think I am scum. What a surprise.

[elvis_knits]

farside, please read the thread before going off half-cocked and asking me stuff that is already answered.

WHY I AM VOTING ABR:

Same old yarn ball as always.

I am not particularly difficult to convince people to vote for, contrary to what DGB is implying. And I'm a great scumpartner. I think the last two times ended in a perfect scum win. As town I generally get into the game very slowly...and it becomes more apparent as the days pass whether I'm mafia or not.

Elvis knits is basically looking for any kind of reason to OMGUS right now, so that's who I would vote if I were you guys.

And if you're sitll voting for me...SO WHAT! I'm still a rock star! Nananananana-naaa

Considering you had no reason to vote me... it would be entirely appropriate for me to vote you for that crap move. However, I'm more voting you for your lack of scum hunting in general, a failure of yours that continues.

MAYBE IF I WRITE IN ALL CAPS YOU WILL UNDERSTAND

I AM VOTING ABR FOR FAILURE TO SCUM HUNT. HIS VOTE ON ME ALSO SUCKS AND HE HAS PROVIDED NO REASON FOR IT.

Do you think ABR is town? Why is my vote on him bad?

---

I can't even understand how OJ is town on this list. Or ABR perhaps scum should be exported and not voted for. Gayle town for wanting to scum hunt but not doing it is town why?

OJ's comments sound like town to me. I don't see anything scummy or that I disagree with. If you think this read is bad, explain why.

The second two sentences are confusing to me, farside. You have a way of ignoring grammar that makes it hard for me to tell what exactly you mean.

The ABR thing... maybe this will answer your question... I want to lynch ABR at this point. At one point I did say he should be exported, but that's only if he isn't lynched. Is there something else you need me to explain.

And you are twisting my words about Gayle. I never said "Gayle is town for wanting to scum hunt but not doing that." Because that's not what Gayle did. Do you think Gayle is not scum hunting? Do you think Gayle is scum?

[elvis_knits]

POPS, YOU ARE SLEEPING ON THE COUCH TONIGHT.

(IN ALL CAPS)

[elvis_knits]

I posted 483 because I am mad. And I still am, so no, I do not want to correct the tone.

[elvis_knits]

gayle

@EK: This is the post I refer to that bothers me about GAyle

As for an alternative direction, I'd prefer if the strategy discussion hadn't interrupted the rvs.

I also don't understand how someone who claims they don't know how to carry on after RVS stage wants to push the issue of RVS

contradict much?

I happen to find RVS very useful. It gets the game started, it gives you questions to ask, votes and bandwagons to question, etc.

This is true. I used to whine about RVS too, until people started telling me to come up with an alternative. I honestly have no idea what else to do, which is why I said I was going to shut up and wait for the strategy discussion to go somewhere.

post a quick comment without much to back it up.

The pops case actually is quiet good.
definate improvement in the game
You know what for someone who wanted to talk RVS she has completely flipped around in her scum hunting and I retract my previous comments about her.

This is the way I read the beginning of the game:

Game skips RVS and goes into boring and complicated strategy discussion. Some people are vocal, others are not. People aren't really voting. Obviously a lot of people are not engaged in the game at this point and the strategy isn't even arriving at anything concrete.

Gayle suggests we stop focussing on strategy since we've put a lot ideas out there and the teleporter will decide for themselves anyway. She mentions RVS because that's the way the game normally starts, and people pick on little things from there and the scum hunt. Which has not been happening with the strategy discussion. AND she also said something about that she did not want people voting each other over disagreements in strategy as she felt that is not a valid tell for scumminess. All of this seems accurate to me, and not scummy. So I did not find any of her comments worrisome, and I did not like how people seemed to latch onto her RVS comment like it was a scum tell or something.

I think her mention of RVS was just an example of what she though we could have done to get ourselves scum hunting. Her main point seemed to be that strategy discussion was not catching scum, and she thought it had gone on long enough to be a distraction.

The fact that she doesn't really love RVS or didn't know how to get us away from strategy discussion doesn't matter to me so much. She was just pointing out that strategy was getting us nowhere and boring half the players, and she was entirely right about that.

[elvis_knits]

Can everybody who is not high off their ass come and vote ABR?

TIA.

[elvis_knits]

Stop smoking, farside!

[elvis_knits]

DGB, I think evilsnail is town.

[elvis_knits]

Which player was talking about policy lyching? I saw someone bring it up but I can't recall who?
Cookie for anyone who tells me.

POPS talking about lynching CSL

Cookie?

[elvis_knits]

Day 1 Vote Count

CSL ( 1 ) Rhinox
DrippingGoofball ( 4 ) mykonian Albert B. Rampage popsofctown farside22
elvis_knits ( 0 )
evilsnail ( 0 )
farside22 ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 0 )
flareonage ( 0 )
gayle ( 0 )
Albert B. Rampage ( 2 ) Raskol elvis_knits
mykonian ( 3 ) flareonage plum DrippingGoofball
ojanen ( 0 )
plum ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 1 ) gayle
Raskol ( 3 ) evilsnail ojanen fishythefish
Rhinox ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 1 ) CSL
Total Votes ( 15 )

With 15 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: 2/8 11am

Which player was talking about policy lyching? I saw someone bring it up but I can't recall who?
Cookie for anyone who tells me.

POPS talking about lynching CSL

Cookie?

*throws a bone at the cute dog instead*

Okay EK I will make you a deal that will sound really familiar. If I'm wrong about DGB not only do I get a muzzle for a week but I agree with ABR scum and bow down to your read on him.

I don't want to muzzle you. I'm sorry if I'm belittling your comments, because I don't want to insult you or make you feel bad. But I just haven't agreed with a lot of your calls and arguments.

The "stop smoking, farside" thing was basically a joke.

[elvis_knits]

DGB, I think evilsnail is town.

Who is the third scum?

pops or fishy. I'm sort of leaning fishy, although I can't remember why I didn't like him. Oh. Now I think I remember, he hopped on the gayle wagon fourth I think with the reasoning of "look at pops' post on gayle." Copycat reason, fourth on a wagon I thought was horrible.

[elvis_knits]

farside, ABR is basically doing nothing. He is saying "dgb is scum" 50 times and that's it.

[elvis_knits]

EK & DGB (aka the doublemint twins)
What will be your view if your wrong and ABR is town?

ABR has two votes on him now. I have to see how the rest of the day shapes up before I would know what to say.

EK: I'm really surprised you see pops as possible scum and

don't note that little comment from pops on her comment in regards to DGB

. I see that as a flub from scum who is like whoops I said too much I should be careful and not pair myself with my scum partner.

I don't understand the bolded.

Regarding pops, I haven't liked a lot of his votes, I feel he has been changing them a lot and putting them in places I don't agree with. I'm not sold that he's scum though. For one thing, I think he probably knows he would get farther with me by buddying, which he is clearly not doing.

[elvis_knits]

E_K is a hater.

My occupation says otherwise

[elvis_knits]

Day 1 Vote Count

CSL ( 1 ) Rhinox
DrippingGoofball ( 4 ) mykonian Albert B. Rampage popsofctown farside22
elvis_knits ( 0 )
evilsnail ( 0 )
farside22 ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 0 )
flareonage ( 0 )
gayle ( 0 )
Albert B. Rampage ( 2 ) Raskol elvis_knits
mykonian ( 3 ) flareonage plum DrippingGoofball
ojanen ( 0 )
plum ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 1 ) gayle
Raskol ( 3 ) evilsnail ojanen fishythefish
Rhinox ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 1 ) CSL
Total Votes ( 15 )

With 15 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: 2/8 11am

You people consider THIS a case??

QT argument from scum-DGB:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 63#1565563

Again:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 90#1566090

DGB making "judgment calls" and then reversing them (as she did with elvis in this game)

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 03#1559303

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 62#1563962

DGB is almost certainly confirmed scum. Lynch plz

I have seen DGB make the scum-QT argument as town. LAL mafia comes ot mind but I'm sure I've seen it elsewhere.

Reversing judgement calls? How is this scummy? Everyone changes their mind. I don't see how this is a scummy move.

This is NOT a case.

The only thing that comes close to looking scummy for DGB is her insistence that evilsnail is scum. I don't understand her reasoning with evilsnail.

[elvis_knits]

@EK I'm talking about these quotes from pops in regards to DGB

I think you're hairsplitting the semantics. She thinks the question is dumb, and no one would answer it. But since someone did, she thinks that person is scummy. It's like saying "Who wants a massclaim" at the beginning of a newbie is a dumb question, because it is, but if someon was idiotic enough to answer the question you'd have caught scum.

I'm not defending DGB on all points. I really don't know what to think of her erratic play atm, it's bizarre.

I just didn't like your saying that she can't think the question is stupid and still find scum with it. She can. But yes, I know that you are arguing the question isn't dumb

@farside: I wasn't defending DGB in general, I was just opposing that one point where mykonian suggested she was contradicting herself. "she hasn't noticed that 3 people answered the question"+"scum skim threads" is legit formula scumhunting, agreed.

Write now I'm concerned DGB is going for "insanity plea scumhunting" by voting evilsnail on flimsy logic and encouraging e_k to skip the thread and vote with her, then shouting she already knows who the 5cumZ are when she ought to be defending herself.

unvote, vote DGB

So you're saying pops went from defending DGB to voting her when he got called on it. Which makes you think they are buddies.

Maybe.

[elvis_knits]

Touchiness is not a scum tell. It's subject to too much WIFOM. If you attack someone for no reason and they get pissed, then you can go "OMG you're touchy! Must be scum!!"

[elvis_knits]

ABR, come up with some reasons that are not based in meta or WIFOM.

[elvis_knits]

ABR, come up with some reasons that are not based in meta or WIFOM.

Since DGB goes off of meta with some players is this really fair to be biased on others that do the same.
The WIFOM is granted.

I think meta can be a jumping off point or supporting evidence, but it shouldn't be the whole case on anybody. I don't think dgb relies on it totally. Maybe when she calls someone town, but if they say something she finds scummy, she discounts the meta. As long as meta isn't used rigidly, I'm fine with it.

[elvis_knits]

Same old yarn ball as always.

I am not particularly difficult to convince people to vote for, contrary to what DGB is implying. And I'm a great scumpartner. I think the last two times ended in a perfect scum win. As town I generally get into the game very slowly...and it becomes more apparent as the days pass whether I'm mafia or not.

Elvis knits is basically looking for any kind of reason to OMGUS right now, so that's who I would vote if I were you guys.

And if you're sitll voting for me...SO WHAT! I'm still a rock star! Nananananana-naaa

Considering you had no reason to vote me... it would be entirely appropriate for me to vote you for that crap move. However, I'm more voting you for your lack of scum hunting in general, a failure of yours that continues.

[elvis_knits]

MYKO, THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT!!!!11

(Just kidding).

[elvis_knits]

popsofctown needs to post

[elvis_knits]

Plum's avvie is intriguing.

Hello Mr. Active Lurker!

Please comment on your curious relationship with DGB. Farside made a good comment about you defending DGB and then switching to voting her when people called you on it.

Then when I said anything about wanting ABR dead, you said that I should stop trying to direct attention away from my scum buddy, DGB. It was a little bit the pot calling the kettle black, wouldn't you say, hm? I'm not convinced DGB is scum, but if she is, you are definitely her buddy. This odd interaction between the two of you, makes me more suspicious of DGB than I was before. You went from defending her, to cutting her loose and trying to connect her to me.

[elvis_knits]

fishy, this is your gayle vote, where you piggy-back onto a pops post that I don't even like.

And yeah,

unvote, vote: Gayle.

For reasons, see the excellent post 92.

Pops in

purple

red

let's keep purple for zoraster

Do you think the strategy discussion is delaying scumhunting? It can be quite the springboard.

Strategy discussion is better than no discussion. What exactly are you advocating here gayle? Because you sure haven't presented an alternate direction for the town.

I think that continuing discussing strategy is pointless. Seems to me that the teleporters will decide for themselves on what to do.

Without reading the thread? They can see every point that is brought up and make a better decision

You are right in that it is better than discussing nothing, but it feels like the game still hasn't begun because we haven't decided on a strategy. You say that it can be quite the springboard, but I think it will just lead to someone being accused as scum for liking one strategy over another.

Yaaaay! Slippery slope fallacy! FUN! Where's my sled, Hobbes?

I'm sure someone with say that is fine, but I'd rather not go down that route.

Hopefully someone will say it's okay to discuss something and accept the spine-chilling risk that someone, somewhere will form a fallacious argument against a player.

As for an alternative direction, I'd prefer if the strategy discussion hadn't interrupted the rvs.

......this is a joke right? This has to be a joke. As if the strategy discussion created a post restriction that cut off random vote posts anyway.

what are your scumtells when you are scum?

I've never been scum, so I wouldn't know.

I find many of pops comments to be talking down to be disingenuous. He is twisting gayle's words. She says she wished we had done the usual RVS and says she is suggesting "the strategy discussion created a post restriction that cut off random vote posts." That is a huge leap on pops part, to the point that he is putting words in her mouth. This is probably why people went batshit about gayle's rvs comment -- because pops blew it out of proportion.

And fishy calls this excellent and uses it as his reason to vote gayle. No matter how much I dislike pops post here, I dislike somebody calling it excellent even more. Because I give people a little more leeway in saying stupid stuff if it's their own idea -- we all have moments of being wrong. But to AGREE with somebody else's lame ideas is harder for me to believe. It also avoid responsibility for having their own reason -- they can blame it on the other guy and his stupid reasoning. I think it's a way to avoid blame.

[elvis_knits]

I would have a problem with you copycatting pops reason, even if I thought pops had a good reason. Why weren't you thinking for yourself?

[elvis_knits]

I would have a problem with you copycatting pops reason, even if I thought pops had a good reason. Why weren't you thinking for yourself?

My post was about the 30th post of the game proper. pops's was about the 20th. I thought he had made the best point that was around in those posts, and made it well. Why shouldn't I use that as a reason to vote?

It's just a lack of original thought that can indicate scum.

[elvis_knits]

I wouldn't bother with anything elvis knits has to say, she's likely scumbuddy with dgb.

Hush

[elvis_knits]

@EK: What is your current view on DGB? Why did you chance your stance from maybe there is a link with pops and DGB to calling pops on that post I refered to?

It was the thing you brought up about pops treatment of dgb... first defending and then voting her when called on it. Remember I was like "maybe." That got me thinking and I didn't like when pops tried to say that I was dgb's scum buddy, or the way he is posting now without content (active lurking). The whole theory seems a lot more plausable to me.

I still do not buy into the meta reasons on dgb, or basically anything abr has said. But I have never liked her evilsnail vote and persistence in calling him scum. Her reasoning is he answered myko's question, and was too wordy or something? B.S. That seems like a horrible reason to think someone is scum.

One other thing is that throughout our posting yesterday (you, me, dgb, abr) I felt like I was making better defense posts for her than she was... which made me feel like maybe I shouldn't be making them. If she can't think of the correct arguments to fight for herself... maybe that's because she really is guilty.

Anyway... that's my thoughts on the issue.

[elvis_knits]

Plum's avvie is intriguing.

Hello Mr. Active Lurker!

Please comment on your curious relationship with DGB. Farside made a good comment about you defending DGB and then switching to voting her when people called you on it.

Then when I said anything about wanting ABR dead, you said that I should stop trying to direct attention away from my scum buddy, DGB. It was a little bit the pot calling the kettle black, wouldn't you say, hm? I'm not convinced DGB is scum, but if she is, you are definitely her buddy. This odd interaction between the two of you, makes me more suspicious of DGB than I was before. You went from defending her, to cutting her loose and trying to connect her to me.

1. Oh PLEASE. I'm more than allowed to make offtopic posts when I'm nearly leading the thread in content. You can't possibly think I need avatar comments to keep from getting prodded ITT.

I'm not even going to say anymore about that. "ohmigosh you wallposted today then made a post about an avvie active lurker doesn't scumhunt" is ridonkulous. With a k. Because it's like riding a donkey instead of a horse. Ridonkulous.

Well a good amount of your posts are strategy which is not scum hunting, and a good amount of your other posts are one-liners. So yes, you've been around... but how much real content has been in your posts? Not sure.

Also, me, farside, abr, dgb (maybe also myko) had made like 4 pages worth of content since you last posted. Part of it was a pops-dgb scum theory. You had nothing to say about that? Instead you posted "what do you want me to post?" and "plum has cool avvie."

3. The difference between the pops-dgb pairing and the e_k-dgb pairing is that you don't want to lynch dgb.

I'm not sure yet. I'm not going to vote her because somebody goes, "you're defending dgb! you must be her scum buddy!" Which is what you did.

How is it the pot calling the kettle black? Blacks don't want to lynch dgb scum, and want to direct attention from dgb. You've been trying to smokescreen her out of attention for quite some time now, commenting on the rather innocuous ABR and finding increasingly petty "tells" on me. You rarely play this aggressively. I have to wonder.

I have been nothing but honest in my assessment of dgb. I didn't say that everything about her was ultra town. But I definitely think the stuff ABR is coming up with is crap, and I have explained why.

I RARELY PLAY THIS AGGRESSIVELY?? ARE YOU NEW HERE?

Seriously, what kind of a bullshit comment to make is that. If you really think that then you haven't played with me before when I am town. Actually, the two games I can think of that we have played together, I was scum both times. So maybe you really don't know my town playstyle?

[elvis_knits]

Elvis should post

I'm almost never online at 11:30 pm...

I find myself missing dgb, and wondering if she has been online in other games or not. If she's posting elsewhere I take that to be a horrible sign.

[elvis_knits]

^^I have the exact same thoughts.

[elvis_knits]

Link to DGB (as town) telling Stephoscope to go back to his scumQT in Yos's LAL mafia:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=395

[elvis_knits]

I am really not a fan of Plum voting CSL, then unvoting and voting DGB in the same post. What is the point of voting someone and then unvoting them in the same post? This smells so bad to me.

[elvis_knits]

Link to DGB (as town) telling Stephoscope to go back to his scumQT in Yos's LAL mafia:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=395

Ha, no.

In the link I provided, DGB made the link between 2 players talking to each other in their QT in a very SPECIFIC fashion, just like she did in THIS THREAD.

I'm pretty sure I have seen her say someone is talking with someone else in a QT also (when she's town). Do I really have to look at every game I played with her to try to find it? This is so stupid.

[elvis_knits]

I am really not a fan of Plum voting CSL, then unvoting and voting DGB in the same post. What is the point of voting someone and then unvoting them in the same post? This smells so bad to me.

ATTENTION:

I think this is a tell that CSL and Plum are buddiez.

Input please.

Does anyone else think it is at all natural to make a case on CSL, vote him, then move on to DGB, and unvote CSL and vote DGB in the same post?

Plum's 759 is so fail to me. Let me list the reasons why:

The myko slip business:

First of all, I do not consider Myk's "slip" conclusive, especially after his explanation. Slips are rarely clear-cut enough to deal with as strong evidence, and it really was not my main point against Myk. I would not have unvoted DGB and voted Myk only for that. My main beef with him was an apparent disjoint between his opinion on Kairyuu's plan which involved Teleporting in a specific pattern &c. (that it was good) vs. his preferred plan, which involved no Teleportation at all (implying that Teleportation is bad); seeming to both try to get credit for approving Kai's plan but subtly trying to dissuade us from using it for no good or explained reason at all.

OMG. Backtrack much since the myko wagon failed? She says the main reason for her myko vote was NOT the slip, but his view on teleportation. If that's true, then why is she unvoting him? Have his views of teleportation changed?

So then she votes CSL.

Then she says's rhinox made a bad vote on CSL. A defense of CSL while she votes him??

Also Rhinox's CSL vote comes hell outta nowhere.

@Rhinox: Why vote CSL there, and what made you set aside the origina case against Myk you clung to for a while with barely a word about him in your post where you unvoted and voted CSL????

And then she transitions to voting DGB.

TLDR:
1)Plum unvotes myko in a scummy way.
2)Plum votes CSL
3)Plum attacks Rhinox's vote on CSL
4)Plum unvotes CSL and votes DGB

[elvis_knits]

SCUM:
CSL
PLUM
FISHY

unvote; vote CSL

[elvis_knits]

@CSL: why do you think I'm scummy?

Because he's bussing you on his way to Hades.

[elvis_knits]

A snail or a fish lynch is good enough. I can't count how many scummy things there are in there.

Vote: evilsnail

Further evidence of CSL-fishy.

Names fishy and snail as scum with no reasoning for either and magically picks snail over fishy to vote for. Distancing without the guts to vote.

[elvis_knits]

EK: I think pairwise scumhunting d1 with no information is a terrible reason for a vote - simply because you're much less likely to be right trying to name multiple scum. Is there anything about CSL himself that makes you think he is scum? I think the connection with me would be better left until he flips scum (which I don't really think he would).

CSL is scum because:

1) He vote Myko based on the scum slip (bad vote at best, IMO), then he unvoted like a scared puppy. Later, myko isn't even on his scum list.

2) He said he wasn't following Plum, which he clearly was, especially given the page number he said he was on when he voted.

3) Not giving any reasoning for his votes.

4) Asking to be allowed to live to night, saying he's okay with being NKed. He's hinting at being the teleporter, right?

[elvis_knits]

OF NOTE:

If CSL flips scum, I almost guarantee myko is town (remember CSL's crappy vote and scaredy cat unvote?).

I also can almost guarantee pops is town is CSL flips scum. Because pops called for a policy lynch of CSL. Scum buddies aren't going to call for a policy lynch on their buddy. You don't get any town credit for that. Better off making a case and bussing that way if you're going to do it.

[elvis_knits]

Plum, please link me to instances of you voting somebody and unvoting the same person in the same post. When you are town.

[elvis_knits]

Can we lynch the scumz that have been pushing for my lynch for crap reasons now???

Yes, please.

I will lynch any of CSL, Plum, Fishy, maybe ABR. ABR is a maybe because I don't know how much of his his personal vendetta and how much is scum.

P.S. my power just went out for about 20 minutes because of hte big snowstorm, and I thought it was going to stay off. It came back but I don't know if it will stay on.

[elvis_knits]

Fake claim deluxe DGB, too bad I have to go now.

Real mason --> DON'T COUNTERCLAIM.

This is ridiculous. If DGB is faking, the real mason should definitely claim. We are not lynching one of our two power roles without a counterclaim.

[elvis_knits]

unvote; vote ABR

[elvis_knits]

Why do you think they are talking dgb?

[elvis_knits]

Hoopla: NO. The other mason is in the other universe. They'll get killed both! DGB should not claim her partner.

How are you supposed to catch her lying then?

We know there is one mason in each universe (to start). So if she is lying, the real mason in this universe should counterclaim.

[elvis_knits]

why would scum myko want to tele his partner away?

Doesn't it keep him safe?

I dunno. Maybe. We've sort of arrived at the fact that we want to teleport scum and pull town, so any teleported players are going to viewed with suspicion. Although maybe it won't matter. I'm not sure the other universe will do our job for us (by lynching people we think are scum). They might just wait and send the same player back to us.

Anyway, I was thinking scum will want to keep their team together. So Myko wanting ABR to leave would not fit with a scumbuddy scenario for me.

[elvis_knits]

There is no lynch other than ABR today.

[elvis_knits]

I don't think plum or evilsnail have posted to let us know they are not masons. Plum usually has a v/la on the weekend for religious reasons, I think.

Anyway.

I would feel entirely comfortable lynching ABR even if not everyone has posted to say they are not a mason.

Because ABR wanted to lynch claimed-mason DGB WITHOUT asking for counterclaims. He specifically told people not to claim, while subtley hinting that HE might be the mason. When asked directly? No, he is not a mason.

That is so scummy, it is not funny.

So I guess we are just waiting on universe2 to lynch so we can let ABR dangle.

[elvis_knits]

I'm still not sold on myko or evilsnail being scum. It's possible that I am stupid though.

[elvis_knits]

OMG so jack just totally hammered doc potter in the other universe!

How fun!

[elvis_knits]

vote csl

[elvis_knits]

@MOD: It still says Night in the thread title

Who cares?

Vote CSL

[elvis_knits]

Day 2 Vote Count

CSL ( 1 ) elvis_knits
elvis_knits ( 0 )
evilsnail ( 0 )
farside22 ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 0 )
Hoopla ( 0 )
gayle ( 0 )
mykonian ( 0 )
ojanen ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 0 )
Raskol ( 0 )
Rhinox ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 12 ) Rhinox ojanen evilsnail gayle farside22 popsofctown CSL fishythefish Ellibereth mykonian Hoopla Raskol
Total Votes ( 13 )

With 13 alive, 7 needed to lynch.
Deadline: Feb 22nd 19:00 EST

GHOSTSLAY

[elvis_knits]

Now the thread title says Day. You are free to scumhunt.

[elvis_knits]

Reposting:

CSL is scum because:

1) He vote Myko based on the scum slip (bad vote at best, IMO), then he unvoted like a scared puppy. Later, myko isn't even on his scum list.

2) He said he wasn't following Plum, which he clearly was, especially given the page number he said he was on when he voted.

3) Not giving any reasoning for his votes.

4) Asking to be allowed to live to night, saying he's okay with being NKed. He's hinting at being the teleporter, right?

[elvis_knits]

Reposting:

CSL is scum because:

1) He vote Myko based on the scum slip (bad vote at best, IMO), then he unvoted like a scared puppy. Later, myko isn't even on his scum list.

2) He said he wasn't following Plum, which he clearly was, especially given the page number he said he was on when he voted.

3) Not giving any reasoning for his votes.

4) Asking to be allowed to live to night, saying he's okay with being NKed. He's hinting at being the teleporter, right?

I'm not giving you any credit on your thoughts.......let me check some things and I will get back on this later

I think you have a point on myko, and I think Gayle has a point about pops. I just think CSL is worse.

With myko, I feel like I need to reread him because he's a bit long-winded and I find myself skimming him a lot... which makes it hard to catch scummy comments. I do know that myko has very different ideas about strategy, which I think are pro-scum.

[elvis_knits]

Oh myko... you want to dance? Okay. Let's dance.

Elvis, why are my ideas about strategy pro-scum?

Your "no-teleportation" strategy is scummy.

no teleportation. In case the other universe sends a player, teleport him back next night, that way restoring the universes. That player sadly would not be able to post in the other universe, but he would not have to worry about splitting his attention

Teleportation is the mechanic of these games. And you want to not use it?

My suspicion is that scum do not want to be seperated, and thus do not want to be sent to the other universe. So they would be anti-teleportation, like you are. That is how your strategy is pro scum.

Also, you later came up with the justification that it would be too confusing for people to have to read a new game. Which is crap for lots of reasons. Too confusing, too hard? Boo-hoo. Everybody who signed up for this game came in knowing teleportation was a possibility and they were told to keep an eye on the other game. Many people have been keeping up with the other game, atleast a little bit, and even posting comments to the other universe. So, I don't see why your "too confusing" argument is good at all. I think it's just another excuse to push your pro-scum no-teleportation strategy.

Farside her case is not that my strategy discussion was bad or wrong. In fact, everybody accepts what I said, but doesn't agree that the confusion of the teleports could be harmful to town, or at least not outweight the benefit. There has been little discussion if adding that was actually scummy, something you are saying now.

I don't see what farside's case has to do with my feelings about you. I have my own brain and my own thoughts. You can't defend against my suspicions on you by saying "that's not why farside thinks I'm scum." Total non-sequiter.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I mentioned my feelings that your strategy is pro-scum before. Oh look, here it is:

My problem with an anti-teleporting stance is that I think scum might be anti-teleporting. Because if their scum team gets split it is PROBABLY bad for them. If both universes agree that we are teleporting players we think are scum and pulling players we think are town, then any teleported player is automatically placed under high scrutiny in the other universe. If they are not lynched immediately, they probably will be before endgame. Not to mention the extra challenge of the scum team playing in both universes while the telported player is alive. It's just all kinds of problems that the team doesn't want. They DO NOT want to be teleported, so I can see scum being anti-teleporting as a strategy.

What stands out in the above post is how Elvis appeases 2 players

: farside and gayle, and then still go for the easy target.

FoS Elvis

I'm not appeasing them. I think farside and gayle are both town and I think their suspicions are good. They are both pressuring people that I am suspicious of, although I am still more suspicious of CSL. To accuse me of pushing an easy target suggests I don't have good reason to vote him. I DO.

He softclaimed teleporter and didn't get NKed.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT MIGHT BE??? HMMMMMMMM?????11eleven

make that a

vote Elvis

There was the "wishy-washy" point against her, which I consider null, and there was something else, I thought. I'll try to find it later, but then you know what I think.

What are you talking about and how are these reasons to vote me?

[elvis_knits]

U did it wrong, Hoopla!

[elvis_knits]

One point I am going to disagree with EK on is the mafia kill. They had a confirmed mason (no one counter claimed) to kill and a breadcrumb of CSL saying teleporter.
Killing CSL if he is the town teleporter all it means is someone else will get the role that is town. Kill DGB means one confirmed town dead.
I don't see how killing DGB over CSL means CSL is auto-scum in that regards.

First of all, softclaiming is scummy.

But secondly, the whole kill on dgb is weird. DGB was supposed to get pulled from the other universe. Either mafia is told who the other universe is pulling/teleporting and who is therefore available for kill -- OR -- the mafia took a big chance putting a NK onto a target who might not even be in this universe (and therefore not available).

I asked the mod if the mafia is told about any teleporting/pulling that might effect their kill -- like if they are given a list of players available for NK. The mod didn't really say yes or no, but said that it was possible.

So if they knew for sure DGB was staying put, it does make sense for them to kill her. Personally, I think they might still want to kill the teleporter over the mason... but I dunno, I guess that's debatable.

If they had to take a shot in the dark on DGB, not knowing if she had been pulled or not, I think it makes it MUCH more likely that CSL is scum.

[elvis_knits]

and elvis, btw, Fishy's points are much better to show my strategy was wrong.

I couldn't even follow fishy

[elvis_knits]

Elvis, what makes a teleporter so important?

(hint, we are all "backups")

If the teleporter gets the NK, their night choice does not go through. If scum are trying to stay in their own universe, killing the teleporter as often as possible is a good strategy to prevent teleportation.

Myko, what makes the mason so important? All they can do is confirm themselves innocent (and their mason buddy, but that's in the other universe so the mafia here don't really care that much I would think).

[elvis_knits]

Rhinox going after elli was kinda scummy. If we lynch the OU's scum for them, we are not lynching our own.

[elvis_knits]

Rhinox going after elli was kinda scummy. If we lynch the OU's scum for them, we are not lynching our own.

I don't see any reason why we should not question Elli.

Feel free, especially if he stays here for a while, but Rhinox was thinking about lynching him today. I think we need to lynch somebody from mafia1 today... and it is impossible for elli to be from mafia1, so I don't care about him at the moment.

[elvis_knits]

Stop strawmanning me about CSL. I am not only voting him because he wasn't NKed. That was an afterthought.

[elvis_knits]

I know the case on CSL.

But that afterthought is plain wrong, still you use it. Why did you need that point with your vote?

I attack you on your points, how is that strawmanning?

You are attacking me on one point which was an afterthought and not part of my main case and call the whole case crap. Do you have a problem with my main points?

Reposting:

CSL is scum because:

1) He vote Myko based on the scum slip (bad vote at best, IMO), then he unvoted like a scared puppy. Later, myko isn't even on his scum list.

2) He said he wasn't following Plum, which he clearly was, especially given the page number he said he was on when he voted.

3) Not giving any reasoning for his votes.

4) Asking to be allowed to live to night, saying he's okay with being NKed. He's hinting at being the teleporter, right?

[elvis_knits]

I'm not scum. If I was scum, I wouldn't have killed DGB last night.

So who is scum?

[elvis_knits]

A "Straw man" argument (also called "setting up a straw man") involves mischaracterizing your opponent's position in order to present a weaker argument than they have actually given, thereby allowing you to defeat it. It usually involves subtle changes to the given facts of the matter, or minor changes to wording that lead to semantic differences in what is said.

Also, "Strawmanning" involves taking a small piece of the case someone has built up that is weaker than their other points and blowing it up. They can then defeat the weaker point and use that as 'proof' that everything that person has said is wrong.

People strawmanning me about CSL:

Raskol and Myko

[elvis_knits]

I know the case on CSL.

But that afterthought is plain wrong, still you use it. Why did you need that point with your vote?

I attack you on your points, how is that strawmanning?

You are attacking me on one point which was an afterthought and not part of my main case and call the whole case crap. Do you have a problem with my main points?

I have a problem with your afterthought and think you are scum for that and for going for an easy target with that, yes. The afterthought was unnecessary but you needed it for some reason. My guess was that you wanted a reason with your vote to make it look good. That is scummy.

You trying to pull this into a strawman is scummy.

How is it NOT strawmanning when you won't even respond to my other points? You are reducing my case to one point that I posted later, and ignoring all the main points. That is a strawman.

[elvis_knits]

I am not talking about your case! I know CSL is scummy as hell, he is always scummy!

So how do you plan to judge his allignment if you are just going to write off all his scumm behavior? And why didn't you admit this before? You were acting like I have no case for voting CSL, when I clearly do.

The question is, why did you need that horrible point? Why didn't you just leave it out? I think because you somehow thought it would benefit you.

I said it because I thought CSL should have been the NK. Like in a normal game when somebody claims doc and they don't get the NK, I always get suspicious. I may be wrong about this considering the DGB circumstances... but I was trying to figure out how the mafia even knew that killing DGB was an option. And I thought mafia might want to kill the teleporter over the mason anyway (I might be wrong here, it's debatable).

If I'm wrong on this point, then I'm wrong, but I said it because it occurred to me. And for you to ASSUME that I have some ulterior motive is complete conjecture, totally unfair, and WIFOM at best. You have no way of knowing my motivation. You're just assuming.

[elvis_knits]

Mykonian, you didn't answer this:

I am not talking about your case! I know CSL is scummy as hell, he is always scummy!

So how do you plan to judge his allignment if you are just going to write off all his scumm behavior?

[elvis_knits]

He’s leaving himself in a position to vote CSL, myko and myself – perhaps the three easiest lynches in the game right now.

You might be right. But you're the easiest lynches for a reason -- you're the scummiest players.

I really do not like the arguments coming out about "easy lynches." The people who are under scrutiny in this game deserve it, IMO. And evidence and arguments have been presented. If there was no reason to want to lynch these people, then I would agree that their lynches are flawed. But that's not what is happening here. What is happening is this:

1)Some players act scummy.
2)Other players notice and vote them.
3)Scummy players whine that they are easy targets, like that is somehow a defense against their scummy behavior.

FAIL.

[elvis_knits]

I am not talking about your case! I know CSL is scummy as hell, he is always scummy!

So how do you plan to judge his allignment if you are just going to write off all his scumm behavior? And why didn't you admit this before? You were acting like I have no case for voting CSL, when I clearly do.

I'm expecting him to play different as scum, based on how I know CSL, I don't think he can hide it very well.

Different how? You think he would be MORE obvious as scum? You realize he has done nothing today except post that he is not scum.

[elvis_knits]

Well that makes me like my vote less...

unvote csl; vote popsofctown

Pops is not scum hunting this game. He's making a lot of jokes, off-topic comments about avatars or whatever. I am fine with jokes and banter, but not if you don't also scum hunt. He's not asking many questions, and if he does ask questions they don't seem very probing. Like he's not trying. He's not engaging people in discussion to try to find out their allignment. He's sitting there, making a few half-hearted attempts, and making sure people like him because he's saying funny stuff.

And now he's like "I don't see and obvscum, so vote CSL. BTW CSL has been ridiculously scummy this game." If he's been ridiculously scummy, why isn't he obvscum? I don't get it. I don't think pops is helping.

[elvis_knits]

Mykonian, I actually am listening. I am asking you about CSL's meta and you haven't given me anything concrete except to say that you *think* he would play differently as scum. I'm still open to hearing something more specific.

As for my vote change... what exactly is your problem with it? Because it seems like you are saying that I am trying to look town by changing my vote. WTF does that even mean? Do you disagree with my reasoning for voting pops? Do you think pops

is

scum hunting? Because those would be valid reasons to argue with me at this point. Whatever the heck you just said is not.

So here you go again attacking me when I attack people for valid reasons. You aren't even arguing with me that my reasons are wrong, but tossing out some bullshit like I am choosing an easy target or that I am trying to appear town.

[elvis_knits]

It appears that I disagree with mykonian in his reads, in his game strategy, and in his idea of what is scummy and what is not. So... everything.

[elvis_knits]

Mykonian, I actually am listening. I am asking you about CSL's meta and you haven't given me anything concrete except to say that you *think* he would play differently as scum. I'm still open to hearing something more specific.

As for my vote change... what exactly is your problem with it? Because it seems like you are saying that I am trying to look town by changing my vote. WTF does that even mean? Do you disagree with my reasoning for voting pops? Do you think pops

is

scum hunting? Because those would be valid reasons to argue with me at this point. Whatever the heck you just said is not.

So here you go again attacking me when I attack people for valid reasons. You aren't even arguing with me that my reasons are wrong, but tossing out some bullshit like I am choosing an easy target or that I am trying to appear town.

I haven't seen a scumgame of him, I have just talked a few times with him in private. He is the kind of person who would get excited with a scumrole, and that can be seen in the way he posts. I totally don't see that here.

Don't you think that information is a little... unreliable since you haven't even see him play a scum game?

Pops had a pretty good start of the game. He was one of the towniest players in the start of the game. Now you vote him for this, after he
voted CSL because he is an easy target.

I didn't vote pops because he vote for CSL "the easy target." I don't htink CSL is such an easy target. He's doing nothing and not getting lynched. He even has people like you defending him!

I agree pops looked better at the beginning of the game. Part of tha tmight have been an illusion though because he was participating a lot about strategy, and that's not scum hunting. I was thinking about how pops played in the other Zoraster game, where I was pops masonscum buddy. And I remember he had a tendency to disappear a little bit... not post for a few days when things got tough. He also seemed to try to charm people with off-topic banter. This is just my impression, and I have to go back and look at that game, but I'm concerned that this is his scum MO.

I also think that many of his votes have had VERY thin reasoning. And have gone with the flow of the game. Gayle. Me. DGB. CSL.

And I think there is definitely scum on the DGB wagon, which was:
Mykonian

ABR

pops
fishy
plum
rhinox

Much of the case on DGB was crap sandwich of meta assumptions. Which makes me pretty sure there is scum there. I'm open to discussion of who that is though, if you have different ideas.

This was the thing I accused you of when you voted CSL! Pops, if you remember, actually asked for a

policy lynch

. You are a hypocrite, and you are just looking for a way to savely place your vote. In doing so, you place it on someone who has played very towny during day one, and I can't see how you so suddenly can jump on pops as town.

I'm not voting pops for the reason you are voting me. So... yeah. You're wrong. I'm not a hypocrite. You're posting assumptions about me like they're reasons. All of your reads actually seem based on assumptions. Like "CSL is town because he always acts this scummy and I think he would be more excited if he were scum."

[elvis_knits]

elvis, you aren't listening. I believe CSL to be unreadable, whether he does things that are universally scummy or not. So he's not obvscum, he has an unfortunate chance of flipping town, but he has to be lynched because there's no way to read him. I believe in policy lynches no matter what my alignment is, so attacking me for a disagreement in theory isn't really fair. I think the best way to play the game is to remove the unreadables and then start scumhunting.

I think you should be scumhunting all along though, and I don't feel like you're trying lately.

[elvis_knits]

farside's 114 was kick-ass. Thank you for putting all that info in one place. It really underlines how bad the dgb wagon was.

My thoughts on dgb wagoners:

Myko: Although I find myself disagreeing with him on every fundamental level, I somehow get the feeling he is sincere. I don't agree with his logic or thinking in many instances, but I really think he believes inwhat he's saying.

Pops: scummy. His dgb and abr votes show how he was just going with the flow, and that many of his votes have caveats that sound like he is voting somebody without thinking they are scum. Notice this:

I give votes to players that seem to want them.

vote:DGB

ABR is closer to L-0, and we need to make a lynch here.

unvote, vote ABR

All right. I don't see any obvscum, so I'm voting CSL

Vote: CSL

All of these votes seem like throw-away votes, like he doesn't actually think the person is scum.

fishy: actually seems to have some reasoning for voting dgb that is based on her actions and not some WIFOM craptacular. I don't know why but I still have some suspicions on fishy, but I have to admit that his dgb vote seems warranted.

rhinox:

I figured out something thats been bothering me about DGB. ABR-scum wouldn't be pursuing a personal vendetta, he would just be trying to force mislynch. For ABR to be tunneling because of a personal vendetta, that would point to ABR being town. DGB is arguing that a personal vendetta from ABR makes ABR scum, and that is just not the case.

Unless ABR has a vendetta that puts lynching DGB above his wincon regardless of allignment, which makes the tunneling a null tell, but makes ABR anti-town for doing so.

I have never played with DGB or ABR before, so I know nothing of either players meta or any possible vendetta between them. Truthfully, I could really care less right now, because right now in this game, DGB if flailing and looks scummy - ABR does not.

unvote: vote DGB

I think that is L-1 yes?. Claim time.

This is a very confusing post for me.

First paragraph makes sense and gives a good reason for voting dgb, but then second paragraph makes his first reason null. Then he flips back and says he doesn't have and firsthand knowledge of any personal vendetta, so he's going to discount the whole thing and still vote dgb because she is "flailing and looks scummy."

lol wut?

Basically he goes on about the personal vendetta thing and decides he doesn't care about it but that dgb is flailing and looks scumym so he'll still vote her. No evidence of where she is flailing or looks scummy. Just a vague blanket statement that is not backed up.

It looks like rhinox just needed a reason to put dgb to L-1 and ask for a claim.

OVERALL:

I find pops scummiest of the dgb voters. I also find rhinox suspicious. I find fishy to have the most legitimate case. And myko off the wall as usual, but not necessarily scummy.

[elvis_knits]

Myko: Although I find myself disagreeing with him on every fundamental level, I somehow get the feeling he is sincere. I don't agree with his logic or thinking in many instances, but I really think he believes inwhat he's saying.

By many people, I'm seen as a logical person. In case you don't get what I'm saying, this usually means I didn't type up logical steps (I try to avoid this, but I also don't want my posts to become too long).

And what does "off the wall" mean?

I'm just saying that I think our minds work differently. I think atleast some of our problems come from that. I really get the feeling of sincerity from you, despite how much I disagree with you. So I am hesitant to say you are scummy just because we disagree about a lot of things. Sincerity earns a lot of town points with me.

[elvis_knits]

I don't really care for the evilsnail wagon. I still think he's town from my read yesterday and I don't see him making a slip at all. When you are absent from the site and come back, you don't always play the same. Personally when I was away, I forgot so much that I felt like a noob. So I am not surprised about what evilsnail said, and I don't htink it's any kind of slip.

Furthermore, let's not let ellibereth take too much control of this town. We know that atleast the teleporter of the other universe thought he was THE SCUMMIEST player in the entire universe. So. Let's use a bit of caution on Elli.

About Hoppla - she's usually pretty vocal and aggressive. But I'm not sure she's caught up and stuff yet, so that could account for decreased activity. She needs to step it up though in the near future.

About Rhinox - this is probably a good wagon. I realized I didn't like Rhinox after looking at his dgb vote, so I understand where this wagon is coming from and think it's good. However, pops needs to die, so I'm voting pops.

@e_k: If I didn't feel way too strongly about ABRscum yesterday, who should I have voted? One of the people at L-massive that I really thought was scummy? Should I have cut to the chase and voted NoLynch? Get real.

You should have been actively looking for scum, and been pushing for somebody you thought was scum to get lynched. Instead you were waiting for the scum to come to you, and when it didn't happen you went "oh well, vote dgb or abr or whatever you people have decided." You should have been proactive. You weren't.

[elvis_knits]

Mykonian, why are you rushing the lynch?

Deadline is nine days away. I see no reason why we should rush. I also don't think that we should draw things out for no reason. I agree that more isn't always better, but I don't see a reason to cut off discussion now. And I could care less about teleports having a hard time reading the thread. I'm not going to cut of discussion to help somebody catchup who may very well be scum (that's what the OU is trying to do, send us scum). Even if the teleport is not scum, we can't help it if the thread is long. We are a chatty bunch! Too bad.

I think we should just lynch when we are ready. Things haven't stagnated yet. There are still people who need to contribute more.

[elvis_knits]

OMG...

You said:

BTW, are we again going to try to fill the thread till deadline, or are we going to try to lynch based on the 47 pages we have?

This totally sounds like you either want us to lynch ASAP, or wait until deadline. As if those are the only options. It's an artificial push to speed up the game, when the game IS NOT stagnated. Yeah there is more than one wagon right now. Who cares? That's good. It's not as if people are immovable in their votes and we can't reach a consensus. People are pressuring who they are suspicious of, and that's a good thing.

Meanwhile, you are complaining that our pressure is spread too far on too many wagons and then you go and jump off one small wagon to go after somebody with no votes! GOOD JOB doing the opposite of what you're telling people to do.

BTW, you've changed your vote from evilsnail to rhinox to raskol all in like the last page. Which wouldn't bother me if you had had a response from evilsnail or rhinox. Neither of these people have posted since you voted them. What is changing your mind enough to keep switching?

[elvis_knits]

/ghostkill

Oh, so you're actually here and reading, just not posting content. Good to know.

[elvis_knits]

MY CURRENT THINKING:

CSL ace5993 - scum

elvis_knits - town

evilsnail - town

farside22 - town

fishythefish - neutral/slight scummy

Hoopla flareonage - n/a

gayle - town

mykonian - mindfuck, anti-town actions with town-like sincerity

ojanen - town

popsofctown - scum

Raskol - neutral

Rhinox - scum

Ellibereth - n/a, healthy distrust of this OU player

[elvis_knits]

I'm not calling you a name. I'm saying you fuck with my mind, and make it hard for me to judge you.

If you really want me to list all the ways that I disagree with you and find you anti-town I will do that later as I don't have the time right now. But I have disagreed with you on several points. Your anti-town plans regarding telportation, your WIFOM read of CSL, your recent "hurry up and lynch" plan for us, and your "let's stop bandwagoning so many people while I start a totally new bandwagon," and how you are now voting then unvoting for apparently no reason (seeing as the people you vote haven't even posted yet before you move on to the next vote).

[elvis_knits]

Myko, I guess that I usually see people vote who they think is scummiest, and only unvote that person if the person gives a good response with a good explanation, or maybe if there is a wagon on another player they find scummy.

So when you vote a player and then unvote them without any resolution, I don't really understand the point of it. You don't even get a chance to see the response of the person you voted because by the time the player even gets online your vote is on somebody else. They aren't going to feel nearly as much pressure, and they have virtually no incentive to take you seriously.

[elvis_knits]

You gave up the fight, EK? I'll reinforce the Myko Attack Squad later tonight, since Myko gave me a letter of challenge in this post.

Until then, you must remain vigilant.

lol... I'm on it!

[elvis_knits]

TOWN
Elvis
Hoop
Gayle
Myko
Oj

PEOPLE THAT SHOULD BE TOWN BUT I FEEL QUEESY ABOUT
farside
Raskol

PEOPLE THAT CONFUSE ME
CSL

EVERYONE ELSE
Fishy
Pops
Evil

You forgot Rhinox

[elvis_knits]

You should have been actively looking for scum, and been pushing for somebody you thought was scum to get lynched. Instead you were waiting for the scum to come to you, and when it didn't happen you went "oh well, vote dgb or abr or whatever you people have decided." You should have been proactive. You weren't.

Sorry for multiposting, accidentally read the thread out of order.





Are you serious e_k? In deadline zone, you wanted me to find someone totally new I felt was scummy, convince a majority of the town to abandon all the popular wagons to go after that person, and then lynched them? You need to be more practical. Seriously.

You are either not understanding me or are twisting my words. I am NOT saying you should have picked someone at the last minute and been able to convince everyone to come over to that person.

What I am saying is that you should have been more proactive ALL ALONG, and been scum hunting ALL ALONG, and argued for someone you found scummy to be lynched. Instead, you were just following along with the majority. Not just with ABR, but with DGB also, so this wasn't all at the eleventh hour. AND the same thing goes for your play today, when we are not under deadline pressure. You were doing nothing and then threw out a csl vote even though you seemed to have no real idea if he's scum or not.

Also, farside is town. So. Yeah.

[elvis_knits]

Vote: Plum

while I'm at it.

Why did you even vote plum here? I don't see you mention her at all. So this is completely random.

[elvis_knits]

Plum's vote feels the weakest, and combined with her presence on the DGB wagon, I am finding her to be a main suspect, and I want to read her more soon.

Okay.

Anyway, Hoopla, I noticed that all the other females in this game are town, now that Plum has been excommunicated. You're the only one I'm not sure of yet as I haven't seen enough from you since you replaced recently. Do you want to join in our awesome girl power?

[elvis_knits]

No badge, but we use the blood of our lynches to bathe in.

[elvis_knits]

Anyway, Hoopla, I noticed that all the other females in this game are town, now that Plum has been excommunicated.

Yes, why leave the females' agreement not to lynch eachother unspoken? :eyeroll:

We are taking males too if they pass the "application" process.

[elvis_knits]

Well, I can see why you were teleported over here. You always this wagon-happy?

Yes, she usually is.

[elvis_knits]

Well, I can see why you were teleported over here. You always this wagon-happy?

Yes, she usually is.

Dammit, I thought I was talking about Hoopla. I don't know about Elli.

[elvis_knits]

Gayle makes me wish I was a lesbian.

[elvis_knits]

pops, what do you think of mykonian?

[elvis_knits]

Seems like another innocent victim of the girls' club. I don't remember anything against him making sense, but he gets attacked all the time.

Then why did you post this:

When you ignore questions from other posters you're pretty useless.

Because it just seemed like you were enflaming the myko-hate by posting that, and enouraging more fighting.

(Also, "another innocent victim of the girls' club" really rubs me the wrong way. You can consider your application denied.)

[elvis_knits]

Can we lynch pops please?

[elvis_knits]

Mykonian, can you please only argue about things that matter? TIA.

[elvis_knits]

Weren't YOU the "this thread is too long" person?

I like posts that have information in them. I'd say more than half of what you end upr arguing about is semantics... or just ends up making arguments longer rather than cutting to the chase and resolving something or making a decision. And then you go and argue about stuff like this. WHICH HELPS NOTHING.

Seriously, you're impossible.

[elvis_knits]

Let's just lynch pops and send mykonian to the other universe.

[elvis_knits]

I am willing to lynch the following people, this is my preference order:

1)pops
2)rhinox
3)csl

I don't know about mykonian. I continue to have a hard time with him. I can't tell how much is playstyle/theory disagreement and how much is scummy, and I don't trust myself here.

[elvis_knits]

Hello lovely mod,

I hope you are feeling better!

Can you prod Maelyn?

done

Thanks!

[elvis_knits]

Rhino is an obvious town read.

Why?

[elvis_knits]

Yeah, pops is scum. LEt's lynch him.

[elvis_knits]

No, I meant live through Day 1. I get NKed, I get NKed. I want to go to night alive.

CSL... explain why you said the above, please.

[elvis_knits]

Can we go back to spamming the thread now? Because this is boring and unproductive.

[elvis_knits]

pops, did you ever tell me why rhinox is town?

[elvis_knits]

Obviously I can't find it. Can you repeat it?

[elvis_knits]

Personally, I would teleport mykonian.

[elvis_knits]

Plus that teleporting someone in is better (get their townies out).

Who is a townie over there? I can't tell.

[elvis_knits]

Pops should totally claim.

[elvis_knits]

Why is pops dragging this out?

If we get to deadline, somebody better be willing to hammer him, with or without a claim.

[elvis_knits]

Less pointless bickering.

Moar lynching pops.

[elvis_knits]

Mykonian, you parking your vote on Raskol who needs replacement is sort of pointless, IMO.

[elvis_knits]

I'm ignoring Mykonian.

[elvis_knits]

HELLO!

As if it was not obvious already...

I AM THE FUCKING TELEPORTER!

POPS IS SCUM LYNCH HIM NOW!

I debated about claiming, but I feel like I have dropped enough hints that scum might know I am the teleporter, and I would be the NK anyway. And if I get the NK, the kill resolves before my teleport, so I can't even send pops away. He would be here tomorrow and you could lynch him, but still, I would rather see him dead today, and you hunt the rest of the scumteam tomorrow!

Either way I die, but I want to take scumpops down on my way out, and leave you better off.

I sent Plum last night because I thought she was scum. She tends to be lurky anyway and hard for me to judge, and she was having trouble keeping up with our pace so I sent her to U2.

Do you remember what I was saying about the scumteam yesterday?

SCUM:
CSL
PLUM
FISHY

PLUM!

This is also why I wanted CSL dead the beginning of today. I felt he was soft-claiming teleporter, and I know that he is not, so that was scummy enough for him to die.

ANYWAY...

I AM THE TELEPORTER!

POPS IS SCUM

LYNCH HIM DEAD!

[elvis_knits]

1437 from Hoopla was a scumslip. He knew pops's claim was fake.

Agreed. I think hoopla needs to be lynched tomorrow ASAP.

I AGREE TOO! HOOPLASCUM!

(I CANNOT STOP TYPING IN ALL CAPS)

[elvis_knits]

Day 2 Vote Count

CSL ( 3 ) popsofctown Hoopla Ellibereth
elvis_knits ( 0 )
evilsnail ( 0 )
farside22 ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 0 )
Hoopla ( 0 )
gayle ( 0 )
mykonian ( 1 ) Rhinox
ojanen ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 7 ) gayle elvis_knits CSL farside22 fishythefish evilsnail ojanen
Raskol ( 1 ) mykonian
Rhinox ( 0 )
Maelyn ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 2 ) Raskol Maelyn
Total Votes ( 14 )

With 14 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: Feb 22nd 19:00 EST

CSL ace5993 - TOWN - POPS AND HOOPLA REPEATEDLY TRYING TO LYNCH THIS GUY

elvis_knits - TELEPORTER

evilsnail - LEAN TOWN

farside22 - TOWN

fishythefish LEAN TOWN

Hoopla flareonage - SCUM

gayle - LEAN TOWN

mykonian - NOT SURE, HIGH CHANCE OF BEING SCUM FOR OPPOSING POPSLYNCH

ojanen - LEAN TOWN

popsofctown - SCUM

Raskol - ?

Rhinox - ?

Ellibereth - U2 LEAN TOWN

Maelyn ? U2 LURKERSCUM

[elvis_knits]

Bah, or maybe CSL really is the last scum, and pops and hoopla were bussing him? I don't know. CSL's softclaim is pretty scummy.

Scummiest:

pops
hoopla

myko
csl

I will leave it up to this awesome town to question the remaining players and sort this out with the new info we are generating. I think we are headed to a town win with a scumlynch today!

[elvis_knits]

CSL is a weird case because he sort of softclaimed. Well, he mostly said he wanted to live through the night (like there was some reason he needed to live, like a night action??). But perhaps he didn't know what the hell he was even implying. It is my impression he is a bit dense. So it is possible he didn't mean to softclaim. However, when dgb and others said he is probably the teleporter, he didn't correct them or say ANYTHING. So... I don't know.

It is notable that pops wanted to policy lynch CSL as soon as csl replaced in. Would he do that to his scum buddy? I would say probably not, but I can't be sure.

[elvis_knits]

See you elvis

Goodbye! Good luck! Kill lots of scum!