Fishythefish wrote:1. You don't really address the main reasons I find you scummy there. I feel your play actively avoids taking stances on who is scum. I don't feel you don't have the time/energy/ability to scumhunt - I feel like you aren't trying.
Well, you can "feel" that all you want, it's not true. I should know. I haven't actively avoided taking a stance. As I've noted, I've not withheld my opinion on the major wagons, like DGB, ABR and CSL.
Fishythefish wrote:2. This is the point - you haven't given a good reason for any of your three suspicions, and are in a position to jump on any of their wagons, saying that you think them scummiest. Until you just voted me, I had no idea who you found scummiest.
Well, neither did I really. I came out thinking my Raskol vote was still a good one, so I asked him a question to see if that read holds up. Then you posted this terrible vote, so I voted you.
evilsnail wrote:Well, you can "feel" that all you want, it's not true. I should know. I haven't actively avoided taking a stance. As I've noted, I've not withheld my opinion on the major wagons, like DGB, ABR and CSL.
This is a matter on which people have to make up their own minds. I recommend snail's iso. Yes, you have commented on the major wagons - although in the case of DGB there was an awful lot of saying you didn't really have a read on her before you eventually admitted something was a "point against her"
snail wrote:Then you posted this terrible vote, so I voted you.
You haven't really explained what's terrible about my vote. Iso yourself - do you think my feelings about the makeup of your posts are unbelievable? Do you not think it's scummy to have three suspects for no real reasons, and not commit to anything by voting for one of them?
Re: hypocrisy: Why can't you believe something is scummy even though you've done it yourself? I firmly believe that posting fluff to avoid scumhunting is a scumtell. If it looks like I have done that myself this game (which I hope it doesn't), then to other people who think the same way as me, I would expect to look scummy for it. That doesn't detract from the argument that your scumhunting-avoiding fluff is scummy. Accusations of hypocrisy are a bad way to undermine an argument.
The things I do as town and the things that I think are scummy in others may overlap. While I'd prefer if they didn't, there's no contradiction in that.
Fishythefish wrote: He’s leaving himself in a position to vote CSL, myko and myself – perhaps the three easiest lynches in the game right now.
You might be right. But you're the easiest lynches for a reason -- you're the scummiest players.
I really do not like the arguments coming out about "easy lynches." The people who are under scrutiny in this game deserve it, IMO. And evidence and arguments have been presented. If there was no reason to want to lynch these people, then I would agree that their lynches are flawed. But that's not what is happening here. What is happening is this:
1)Some players act scummy.
2)Other players notice and vote them.
3)Scummy players whine that they are easy targets, like that is somehow a defense against their scummy behavior.
FAIL.
Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell
It feels like I have rather struck a nerve here with my use of "easy targets". You don't seem to be arguing against my actual point, so much as against the general practise of calling yourself an "easy lynch" and discrediting valid arguments against you. My post doesn't in any way criticise the overall wagon on CSL, or the general suspicions on anyone else. I am saying that attacking multiple players for no reason looks like scum keeping their options open - particularly if these players are under scrutiny from elsewhere. Yes, that scrutiny may be valid - but that's no excuse not to give your reasons, or at least which of the wagons you support the most. snail failing to do that reads very much like he's waiting to see where his vote should go, rather than deciding now who he thinks is scummiest.
The part about those being the easiest lynches was factually wrong, though. CSL is an easy target, but snail's suspicions on me mostly predate everyone else's, and I was wrong in thinking he was voicing suspicions of myko. This doesn't do much to weaken my overall point - reading snail's iso, he's always left himself in a position to change BWs easily, including around all major BWs. Part of this is that he's voiced no suspicions with reasons, while producing lots of posts that read like content.
mykonian wrote:I am not talking about your case! I know CSL is scummy as hell, he is always scummy!
So how do you plan to judge his allignment if you are just going to write off all his scumm behavior? And why didn't you admit this before? You were acting like I have no case for voting CSL, when I clearly do.
I'm expecting him to play different as scum, based on how I know CSL, I don't think he can hide it very well.
And I didn't answer because I thought you were more interested in the second part.
And I fully disagree with me being an easy lynch. Apart from the mistake, and in farside's case calling her a liar you don't have a single thing against me. Going after my theory discussion completely neglects what I did for searching scum, going after my theory discussion is actually kind of useless this far into the game (scum can hide in it way too easily, and all you pick out are the people that are weird)
So I dislike fishy calling me and him easy targets: seen the votes, Fishy clearly isn't, and he is way sensitive to the little pressure brought on him.
CSL is clearly an easy target. His playstyle is out of the ordinary, completely antitown, but antitown =/=scummy. Screaming that he is antitown is arguing for a policy lynch (if that is good or not is a different discussion), but pretending you have made a case on him based on those points is wrong. This is my only point against Rhinox, and an additional point against Elvis. I excuse rhinox because my gut says he is protown.
Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.
Fishythefish wrote:The part about those being the easiest lynches was factually wrong, though. CSL is an easy target, but snail's suspicions on me mostly predate everyone else's, and I was wrong in thinking he was voicing suspicions of myko. This doesn't do much to weaken my overall point - reading snail's iso, he's always left himself in a position to change BWs easily, including around all major BWs. Part of this is that he's voiced no suspicions with reasons, while producing lots of posts that read like content.
Geez, you're really taking this and running with it, aren't you? Granted, I joined the CSL wagon, but it's not true of other wagons. For DGB, I FOSed her the moment she said sharing scum tells was a scum tell, before there was any real suspicion on her. I then said that I considered this a mild scum tell, but that I have trouble reading her. This opinion went unchanged throughout the day. This is merely consistency. For ABR, it is also clearly not true. I also resisted the elvis vote, though this never really picked up. In fact, I've only jumped on a wagon once.
Btw, I haven't even made "lots of posts." And please show me some that read like content, but aren't. Because, at the moment, you're basically waffling.
Dear lord the above from myko is one of the few times I agree with his assesment.
Meta read on CSL it's difficult but I have to agree with OJ when I say it does remind me of a game currently in progress. I saw him as town in another game and he's more vocal.
I'm still feeling good on my hoola vote. One thing ABR has correct is if you think someone is scum and another player is scum that isn't as well verse in mafia you should lynch the one that has a greater (I hate to say it this way) intelligence.
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
farside22 wrote:Dear lord the above from myko is one of the few times I agree with his assesment.
I thought we agreed quite often during the start of the game... Before our argument.
And Evil, you name it with your suspicion on DGB. As town, you wouldn't have to worry about consistancy, but as scum you really want to show you aren't blatantly bandwagonning...
Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.
I don't get your point. I only pointed out that my opinion of DGB predated the wagon. I didn't say consistency was a town tell or anything. Both town and scum players can be consistent.
I was addressing the interpretation fishythefish seems to be pushing (that I expressed suspicion of DGB in order to be able to jump onto her wagon), which is invalidated by this.
farside22 wrote:Dear lord the above from myko is one of the few times I agree with his assesment.
I thought we agreed quite often during the start of the game... Before our argument.
And Evil, you name it with your suspicion on DGB. As town, you wouldn't have to worry about consistancy, but as scum you really want to show you aren't blatantly bandwagonning...
I think your wrong about EK.
I think I need to reread evil again. I wish people would go and look and flare and hoopla and see how badly they are coasting thru this game.
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
mykonian wrote:I am not talking about your case! I know CSL is scummy as hell, he is always scummy!
So how do you plan to judge his allignment if you are just going to write off all his scumm behavior? And why didn't you admit this before? You were acting like I have no case for voting CSL, when I clearly do.
I'm expecting him to play different as scum, based on how I know CSL, I don't think he can hide it very well.
Different how? You think he would be MORE obvious as scum? You realize he has done nothing today except post that he is not scum.
Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell
All right. I don't see any obvscum, so I'm voting CSL
Vote: CSL
CSL has been ridiculously scummy this game. People who claim he's readable will say that means he's scum, but I really doubt he's readable. But hey, for those of you who think he is somehow readable (like DGB who can read him because he used exactly two apostrophes in his last post, WOO!) then you should realize you should join me on this wagon because he's being as scummy as a player gets.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
Pops is not scum hunting this game. He's making a lot of jokes, off-topic comments about avatars or whatever. I am fine with jokes and banter, but not if you don't also scum hunt. He's not asking many questions, and if he does ask questions they don't seem very probing. Like he's not trying. He's not engaging people in discussion to try to find out their allignment. He's sitting there, making a few half-hearted attempts, and making sure people like him because he's saying funny stuff.
And now he's like "I don't see and obvscum, so vote CSL. BTW CSL has been ridiculously scummy this game." If he's been ridiculously scummy, why isn't he obvscum? I don't get it. I don't think pops is helping.
Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell
You don't listen about CSL's meta, do you. You just hammer on about what you said already, without listening to anything.
and now we have this. Seriously. Is this your attempt to look town by switching your vote now and then by "scumhunting"?
elvis_knits wrote:Well that makes me like my vote less...
unvote csl; vote popsofctown
Pops is not scum hunting this game. He's making a lot of jokes, off-topic comments about avatars or whatever. I am fine with jokes and banter, but not if you don't also scum hunt. He's not asking many questions, and if he does ask questions they don't seem very probing. Like he's not trying. He's not engaging people in discussion to try to find out their allignment. He's sitting there, making a few half-hearted attempts, and making sure people like him because he's saying funny stuff.
And now he's like "I don't see and obvscum, so vote CSL. BTW CSL has been ridiculously scummy this game." If he's been ridiculously scummy, why isn't he obvscum? I don't get it. I don't think pops is helping.
Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.
mykonian wrote:You don't listen about CSL's meta, do you. You just hammer on about what you said already, without listening to anything.
and now we have this. Seriously. Is this your attempt to look town by switching your vote now and then by "scumhunting"?
Are you going to argue all game?
First of all EK came up with sound reasons to vote for CSL so you is in fact scum hunting.
How about doing me a favor. I want an idea of what you think of all the players in the game and stop arguing as your not making sense half the time.
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
Mykonian, I actually am listening. I am asking you about CSL's meta and you haven't given me anything concrete except to say that you *think* he would play differently as scum. I'm still open to hearing something more specific.
As for my vote change... what exactly is your problem with it? Because it seems like you are saying that I am trying to look town by changing my vote. WTF does that even mean? Do you disagree with my reasoning for voting pops? Do you think pops
is
scum hunting? Because those would be valid reasons to argue with me at this point. Whatever the heck you just said is not.
So here you go again attacking me when I attack people for valid reasons. You aren't even arguing with me that my reasons are wrong, but tossing out some bullshit like I am choosing an easy target or that I am trying to appear town.
Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell
uhm, yes, that was the plan. I'm going to drag arguments in the game all game long, seeing what makes enough sense, what not. What is not important I probably forget, what I need I will remember.
But the problem is, the longer the game, the more I remember the conclusions, and the less the actual answer.
The lurkers:
Ojanen: decent, basically null-read. If I have time I should read a few games, otherwise I have no idea.
Raskol: lurking scum
CSL: Posts less then what I had expected, but not concious about being scum. Leaning town.
Evilsnail: started very well, can't keep up, as I see it. Compared to Raskol, he is attacked after lurking, raskol lurks after being attacked.
Hoopla: replaced in, I expect something from her.
Same counts for Elli. Both null-reads.
The rest:
Farside: I begin to doubt my read here. She does try hard, and I think the way she reacted was as she would react as town. (while it would be very conveniant to act that way as scum)
Elvis: scum
Popsofctown: started out very well, and I sadly don't see a continuation of that. But I thought him town.
Fishy: I really had good feelings about him, and I thought I saw some scumhunting from him. I don't really see the case, though he is a little nervous about it. Still, town.
Rhinox: always town. Don't ask me, I won't get a read him until I have played multiple games, or talked with him in private.
I think that was everybody, right? And sadly, everything is probably already in the thread, since "I post too much"
Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.
elvis_knits wrote:Mykonian, I actually am listening. I am asking you about CSL's meta and you haven't given me anything concrete except to say that you *think* he would play differently as scum. I'm still open to hearing something more specific.
As for my vote change... what exactly is your problem with it? Because it seems like you are saying that I am trying to look town by changing my vote. WTF does that even mean? Do you disagree with my reasoning for voting pops? Do you think pops
is
scum hunting? Because those would be valid reasons to argue with me at this point. Whatever the heck you just said is not.
So here you go again attacking me when I attack people for valid reasons. You aren't even arguing with me that my reasons are wrong, but tossing out some bullshit like I am choosing an easy target or that I am trying to appear town.
I haven't seen a scumgame of him, I have just talked a few times with him in private. He is the kind of person who would get excited with a scumrole, and that can be seen in the way he posts. I totally don't see that here.
Pops had a pretty good start of the game. He was one of the towniest players in the start of the game. Now you vote him for this, after he
voted CSL because he is an easy target.
This was the thing I accused you of when you voted CSL! Pops, if you remember, actually asked for a
policy lynch
. You are a hypocrite, and you are just looking for a way to savely place your vote. In doing so, you place it on someone who has played very towny during day one, and I can't see how you so suddenly can jump on pops as town.
Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.
