Mini #717 - Alpha Centauri Smalltown (Game Over!)

[Occam]

I call Commisioner Pravin Lal.

[Occam]

I call good luck with that one.

Are you opposed to me being jailkeeper son?

[Occam]

If anyone takes Commisioner Pravin Lal I will slice them with my razor.

[Occam]

Roles that are worthless if you are scum: Bus driver, masonier, and to a lesser extent jailkeeper.

Jailkeeper is bomb if you're scum as long as you use it right.

[Occam]

I guess I know something you don't, charter. JK is good for scum all game long.

[Occam]

I'll have Pravin Lal - Jailkeeper Smile.

I'll have

burning eternal hatred for you forever.

[Occam]

Even though

Captain Ulrik Svensgaard

is one of the stupidest looking things I've ever seen, I'm going with him, the commuter.

[Occam]

Lawl.

[Occam]

Interesting idea, farside. I assume that's the whole point of the supersaint. We definitely need to wait on that until we have a few cleared, IMO, but its worth a shot later in the game.

Are there any roles that are inherently anti-town? Would it be worth lynching roles that are, as a starting point?

Bulletproof sounds dangerous in the hands of scum and essentially useless for town, since everyone already knows who's bulletproof. Based on that:

vote: DP

That reminds me - Mmm, doctor pepper...

[Occam]

Lol.

[Occam]

I would think that in this setup that scum would have a very easy time working around a BP and killing off more important roles like tracker, jailer, any that could potentially out them

EX-FREAKING-ZACTLY.

WE KNOW ALL THE POWER ROLES AND WHO HAS THEM. IT IS TOTALLY OUT IN THE OPEN. BP TOWNIE IS COMPLETELY USELESS.

That is all. If you think I deserve to get voted out for revealing the obvious, so be it.

But if we're talking about revealing the obvious, how about the fact that Farside basically ruined any chance we had at executing her plan by bringing it up on day one and basically putting a target on the SS?

unvote - vote: farside

[Occam]

Nope, we're definitely out of the RV stage now.

unvote - vote: Occam

I want to see some chops licked tomorrow if somebody hammers. Let's make it good people.

[Occam]

Vote: Occam for no particular reason.

PS - Cephrir is scum.

[Occam]

and whats the big idea with the attempted self hammer? not liking the looks of that

Actually, it was an attempted (and successful, in fact) L-1, clearly discernible when you look at the VC directly above my post.

But

unvote

- I don't actually want to die and my death won't actually give the town anything, either. What I wanted was to realize how completely ridiculous that wagon was.

Now I'm putting my money where my mouth is.

vote: Cephrir

[Occam]

Okay, so Occam votes himself to try to convince people that he's really town, and then he admits that he attacked without voting, which makes it look like he's trying to throw suspicion off himself without presenting a good arguement to do so.

What you're missing is the timing. I needed my vote on me to stay at L-1 until someone withdrew their vote, which charter did - then, in my very next post, I moved my vote to where I actually wanted it. I thought I made that pretty clear.

[Occam]

Cephir does look like a bandwagon vote

It doesn't just look like a bandwagon vote, it's the most blatent bandwagon vote I've ever seen that didn't come right out and say "I'm voting to bandwagon".

[Occam]

There was nothing scummy about my self-vote. I did it knowingly, so you'd all say "holy crap, why is he at L-1, that's ridiculous" (which it was). The point was to get a vote off of me, which I did. Then I put my vote where I actually wanted it.

I'm sure I could look through games and find countless instances of self-voting that was scummy, countless where it was protown, and countless where it was null - which this was. I'm not arguing it was a protown move, I just want some breathing room.

Just FTR I still don't think BP is a significant town role in comparison to all the others. The thing I think you might have overlooked is that EVERYONE in the game is a power role. There aren't any weak, vulnerable vanillas - in an ordinary setup, BP would definitely be an asset - but in this game, not so much.

[Occam]

@ Ceph -

If your "random vote" had been the hammer, do you think it would have looked scummy? If it had been the hammer, you could have used the very same defense: essentially, I voted without reading the game. How is this situation different than that one?

[Occam]

Wait he admits it was a ploy to get votes off of him.

No. Mirepresentation. I self-voted to get the votes off of me.

a.) you felt I was a good lynch because I was useless…

One vote is not a lynch, and it got discussion moving, which is a very good thing.

b.) explain to me why I am usless over other roles…

I have explained to you why I think your role is useless compared to the rest. I never said you were. In fact, nothing in my case was based on anything you did. It was purely to motivate role discussion - which it did. You act like I had five votes or something - it was one vote.

c.) explain to me how I am a danger to the town

When did I say you were?

d.) explain to me how I am a bigger danger to the town over being a danger to scum

Again, I never said you were.

e.) do you really see no advantage for us having someone who is bulletproof against scum?

Not over any other role in the game, no, I really don't. You're a player who can make it to the endgame if he isn't lynched. That's it.

[Occam]

Are there any roles that are inherently anti-town? Would it be worth lynching roles that are, as a starting point?

Bulletproof sounds dangerous in the hands of scum and essentially useless for town, since everyone already knows who's bulletproof. Based on that:

vote: DP

That was my initial comment, for reference. Where did I even say I wanted him lynched?

People assume that because you vote for someone, it means you want them lynched, which is a completely flawed assumption. Your vote is a tool. I have used it already in this game for three different reasons.

[Occam]

Anti- town roles:

Janitor
Terrorist
Framer

those are what come to mind.

Where's that coming from? None of those roles exist in this game. I assume you're saying that BP isn't an anti-town role. I agree. But as far as roles go, BP is the least useful of the roles we have. Period. I'm done discussing BP and am ready to move on if you are - my vote is already elsewhere.

[Occam]

THis is true, but your initial comment does make it sound like you want to lynch him, as you suggest lynching antitownish roles and then cite his role as dangerous in the hands of scum.

That comment makes it sound like I want him lynched? Really?

[Occam]

Would it be worth lynching roles that are, as a starting point?

Ah, this does make it sound like I wanted him lynched. It's a poorly structured sentence. "As a starting point" was meant as "as a starting point for discussion", not, "lets lynch useless roles to start with", I can see how that would be misinterpreted easily.

[Occam]

I would agree that BP isn't useless if this was not an open setup, but guess what - it is. Everyone knows you're BP. No surprises. People just aren't going to try to kill you at night - they'll kill someone else.

[Occam]

a vote means what, you didnt want me lynched?

Umm... no. It means I wanted to start discussion, in that instance. Other times, it means other things.

explain to me how being bulletproof is "dangerous in the hands of scum"

A. No vig kill
B. No crosskill by SK, and crosskills tend to work out quite nicely for town.

There's two reasons.

also when you say "dangerous" who am I dangerous too? I asked you to explain WHY I was dangerous to the town, you retorted with, "when did I say you were"...so Mr. Avoid Questions, who am I dangerous to?

You don't have to be dangerous to be useless. I said your role was useless to the town.

Also you see no other advantage to me being bulletproof?...hmmm, scum has to lynch me to kill me...not a big one to you?...way to down play my role...

UM, that's the point I've been making all along. The scum just DOESN'T kill you. You're just THERE. Being BP doesn't make you proven town, it just makes you BP, so the town can't be any more sure you're town than they could of anybody else - PLUS, the scum wouldn't CARE about getting you lynched, because you're freakin BULLETPROOF. What are you gonna do to them? Sit there in a vest?

dont avoid my questions anymore.

Eff you dude. I went through POINT BY POINT and answered every single one.

[Occam]

You don't have to be dangerous to be useless. I said your role was useless to the town.

EBWOP: If you're TOWN you aren't dangerous to the town, you're role is just useless. If you're SCUM you're dangerous to the town for the reasons i listed above.

[Occam]

This was an avoidance. You DID imply I was a danger to the town…why did you avoid this question? Why did I have to ask you twice before you stood behind your answer?

Perhaps if you worded your questions more clearly I could actually answer them (as I did in my last post when I finally figured out what you were talking about).

This was an avoidance. You DID imply I was a danger to the town…why did you avoid this question? Why did I have to ask you twice before you stood behind your answer?

You really think you're some kind of bigtime lawyer, don't you? You worded your question in a way that made it sound like you were asking me why you were a danger to the town if you were a bulletproof townie - which you obviously aren't, and I never said you were, so YES, I DID ANSWER YOUR QUESTION. Asking the RIGHT question will get you the "right" answer.

I love how you skirt by the question. WHEN YOU SAID MY ROLE WAS DANGEROUS IN SCUM HANDS, WHO WERE YOU SAYING I WAS DANGEROUS TOO (IF NOT TOWN)? I ask this, because when I asked you the first time, you coyly said “when did I say that”…I asked you again and you talk about being useless which has nothing to do with my question. …you said I was dangerous in the hands of scum…not just useless to town.

Dude, are you seriously asking me why you being scum is dangerous for the town? WTF is your deal? Scum is dangerous to the town by virtue of being scum - THAT'S THE FOUNDATION THE GAME IS FOUNDED ON.

I have a feeling you realize your vote and reasonings were bullshit and couldn’t back them up at first. So when people call you on it…you deny saying you thought my role is dangerous to the town and go with the old “I didn’t want him lynched, I was just stirring up conversation” bullshit.

You're being completely ridiculous. I didn't want you lynched. this is key, so listen:

I NEVER THOUGHT NOR DID I SAY YOUR ROLE WAS DANGEROUS TO THE TOWN IF YOU WERE TOWN. I SAID IT WAS USELESS. I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY YOU'RE DANGROUS TO THE TOWN. YOU HAVE TO BE THIRTEEN YEARS OLD TO REGISTER FOR THIS SITE AND I ASSUME ANYONE OVER THE AGE OF THIRTEEN CAN FIGURE THAT OUT ON THEIR OWN.

If that's a flawed assumption, please explain why.

[Occam]

(sigh)... this EBWOP is really going to take away from the gusto of that last post, but:

I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY YOU'RE DANGROUS TO THE TOWN AS SCUM.

Fixed.

[Occam]

No vig kill, no crosskill by the SK….interesting wording here. Why not say no crosskills period. Why did you say no crosskills by the SK? Cant the mafia crosskill the SK too?

Also, missed this - but I assume that (since you figured out what I meant) you can figure out what I meant.

[Occam]

...and you're the Narcissist. You have decided that the only acceptable path for mankind is total submission to your will.

Each night, in addition to your usual night action (if any), you may also attempt to assassinate one of the other faction leaders. This kill cannot be redirected by Yang's power, or tracked by Roze's power or any player with Zakharov's Cloaking Device.

You win when you are the sole survivor, or if any phase (Day or Night) begins with exactly two players alive, and you are one of them.

Sounds like an SK to me.

[Occam]

Any role is dangerous in the hands of scum.

That's

precisely

my point, but I feel that BP is more dangerous than many others as a scum role for the reasons I stated.

The point is you targeted a BP role now you say to start conversation and nowhere till now did you even state that was your reason.

So you're saying that, when someone votes, they're required to say: "I am voting for DP because I want to start discussion". I'll tell you what happens when people come out with things like that - it goes nowhere. It's just like saying "I voted for you for pressure". It doesn't count anymore once you explain it. I'm not making up excuses for my vote - I'm telling you why I cast it.

I see a multitude of "reasons" why you voted as such. Each one sounds as fake as the next.

Where are these "multitude of reasons"? If I recall correctly I only gave one, and it was genuine.

People really need to realize that a vote is a TOOL, not just another number to add towards a lynch. If you really base your suspicions on someone utilizing that tool, then you probably catch people who understand how this game works more often than you catch scum.

[Occam]

Occam - do you believe that DP is scum?

No, not more than anyone else. I didn't really think he was scum when I voted for him - he hadn't even posted yet, so that's why I find it ridiculous that people think I actually wanted to lynch him.

I agree on the farside missing the SK thing - there were several posts that mentioned it, and it was on the roles page. Seems suspicious that she'd "overlook" it.

[Occam]

What is the point of all this you ask. Well it's the fact he kept defending his point that BP is useless and then final says it was to start a conversation. I find this a cheap way to get out of something that was a person under pressure.

As Ceph said you cited the same reason worded 5 different ways. That's one reason. How is my saying BP is useless, and also saying I voted him to start discussion, even remotely contradictory?

[Occam]

I explained why I self-voted and it wasn't for "sympathy". I knew my wagon was ridiculous and unfounded and I knew being at L-1 would make people realize that. Charter was the first - he unvoted, and I did too. That's not sympathy, that's an objective, which farside apparently recognizes but still calls sympathy:

Whatever the reason it was a way to gain sympathy from a few saying "wow this BW is moving fast and I don't like it"

Do you disagree that it was moving way too fast? Because it was, and I don't see how you can argue that what I did was anti-town.

[Occam]

Self voting is anti-town. Anyone who says different is smoking crack.

Grr... that's totally untrue. I'm willing to bet most experienced players would completely disagree with you. It all depends on the situation.

Plus, anti-town doesn't = scum.

Plus, it wasn't anti-town.

I think farside is smoking crack.

[Occam]

Talk with Mr. Flay who will actually ban an IC who vote themselves when they are town.

Right, in a NEWBIE GAME. That's a completely different scenario, and it doesn't apply here.

[Occam]

Self-lynching is only useful as a Jester (a role which IMO shouldn't exist) or as scum. I did this to good advantage in Newbie 436 to throw off the town's read of D2 (after successfully arguing cicero out of doing it himself on D1). It cuts short discussion, throws off vote tracking, and otherwise disrupts with scumhunting.

It's NEVER a good idea as town. Anyone who threatens to do so should be lynched or beaten severely about the head and shoulders.

This is about self-LYNCHING! i SELF-VOTED. Obviously self-LYNCHING is anti-town, but that's not what I did, and obviously there is an ENORMOUS difference.

Monkey is wrong about everything he's said on this page and I love how he's setting up lynches in advance.

Fos: Monkey

[Occam]

What if for a second I believed you as town. What happens when you put yourself at L-1 and some scum still hasn't voted. Your vote, your single vote is in terms self lynching at that point. Deal with it.

A self-lynch is when you lynch yourself. L-1 is not a self-lynch. Think. Your tunnelvision is completely ridiculous.

[Occam]

Actually I think farside needs my vote for this ridiculous misrep.

unvote - vote: farside

The main problem I had with Ceph was the BW, which is still suspicious, but Farside's been truly scummy as of late.

[Occam]

The self vote is a big red flag to me, if you're town and a wagon like that ran up on you in the first 3 pages and actually went to lynch whoever had the stones to hammer you would be soundly trounced D-2.

Exactly. I noted that in my post. Durp.

as for the BP being more dangerous as scum it's nonsense, aside from the vig and sk who wouldn't likely target him, its worthless for scum aside from the argument that it is such an asset for the town.

You're wrong.

[Occam]

Really the fact that someone unvoted you looks more suspicious as scum don't mind having an L-1 vote. A town person should be worried about L-1.

Scum would be more worried about being at L-1 than town, dude. Think.

Nice OMGUS vote by the way. Rolling Eyes

Another misrep, and a predictable one at that.

Look farside, I think you have some serious theory issues. I'm not going to waste my time trying to teach you anything about theory as you apparently dont know the difference between a self-vote and a self-lynch, even though those terms define themselves. Just because someone votes you back doesn't make it OMGUS. If there's a reason for a vote there's a reason for it, and there most definitely is in this case.

[Occam]

Why the hell would scum worry about L-1 everyone person on this site talks to death before lynching. So any scum who is concerned on page 3 about being at L-1 is laughable. Townie on the other hand worry about the quick hammer that scum is known to pull. Yes it can out a scum but in the mean time talks stop and kills happen.

There are a number of things wrong with this. One is that the hammer tell is completely rooted in WIFOM. Two is that there are far fewer scum than town, and townies can be just as "known to pull" a hammer as scum, so scum have more to lose. Three is that you say "Any scum who is concerned about being at L-1 is laughable can be just as easily applied to a town player, so that's BS.

Really I see no case you brought forth against me. All you have done is say I'm misrep. I see no other reason for that vote.

alright then could you kindly explain to me how a role who's sole power is to be immune to a night kill makes it more dangerous than normal to be in the hands of the group doing the most night killing.

Dude - the scum is doing ONE THIRD of the nightkilling. That's one of three kills. How is that the most night killing? Kindly, making it impossible to night kill a scum is a really bad thing for what I consider obvious reasons.

Really I see no case you brought forth against me. All you have done is say I'm misrep. I see no other reason for that vote.

Please read the game then. I've been calling you out since the game started because you've been misrepping and using bullshit arguments against me all game. I'll lay them out for your convenience:

1. I voted for you once already:

But if we're talking about revealing the obvious, how about the fact that Farside basically ruined any chance we had at executing her plan by bringing it up on day one and basically putting a target on the SS?

unvote - vote: farside

2. You feigned ignorance about there being an SK:

Did I miss something on page one. I see nothing about a SK in the game. Is it normal for a SK in small town? I ask because the assumption there is a SK makes my head hurt.

immediately made me think you were probably the SK, especially since you attempted to make me look bad for "assuming" there was an SK when it was clearly stated on the first page.

3. You gave "5 reasons" for my explaining my vote, and myself and Cephrir noted:

As Ceph said you cited the same reason worded 5 different ways.

4. You have misrepped me several times and used an argument regarding self-lynching to attempt (and fail) to prove that SELF-VOTING is anti-town.

[Occam]

BP can be scum, SK or townie in this set up. However it is usaullay an anti group that would like to have the BP lynched.

Misrepped yet again as I've clearly stated more than once that I DIDN'T want him lynched.

For christ's sake...

[Occam]

in fact the worst case scenario would be a BP SK, not scum

Plus how is a BP SK not a really really bad thing? wtf...

[Occam]

Funny I brought this up and you liked the idea on one page but when you are critisized for your comment you bring this up as a shield.

Yeah, time passed and I realized that what you did was actually bad. Sorry.

I explained this already. Note you ignored by reason and are calling it feigned ignorance. How is this really scummy act?

Because, like I said, you tried to make me look bad with it, and you were wrong. You saying it wasn't feigned doesn't mean it wasn't.

Showed you were talking, talking and talking about how BP is useless then after more pressure brought up that you got conversation started by making said comment. Funny not mentioned earlier or the number of times you called BP useless

Yeah, I said that same thing five times. Clearly I believed it. I still have been calling and still will call the BP role more useless than any of the other roles for the town and quite dangerous for the scum. That hasn't changed, and it's a theory discussion, so if you disagree, that doesn't make me scum.

Once again how is self voting not anti town. I showed different people stating how it is bad for the town and can lead to a lynch. What part of that do you keep missing or should I say dismissing.

The point you brought up doesn't apply because it was about self-lynching, plain and simple. Bring me some evidence of self-VOTING being anti-town.... then we'll talk. If you do, I'll bring some evidence of it being protown, and then we can agree that it's a nulltell.

All my points on why L-1 for town is worse then for scum can't be just WIFOM because this site proves that no people like to talk to death. Scum know it. Only people I ever seen do a quick hammer was scum. Proff. Look at every game and tell me a townie that did it. Anything else you wish to dismiss?

You're serious? You're actually claiming that ONLY SCUM quickhammer on DAY ONE? That's completely absurd. You're stretched thin now, eh? Yes, I dismiss almost everything you've said as invalid. Here's another thing - NOBODY HAMMERED. Charter unvoted quickly, then so did I. There wasn't a quick hammer so there's nothing to talk about in that respect. Your point is built 100% on WIFOM that didn't even happen.

@Grem -

Yes, SK being BP is the worst case scenario. But you seem to be trying to say that BP is scum isn't bad? Why? A scum with BP is dangerous for the same reason that an SK with BP is dangerous. I guess I'm missing your point.

[Occam]

Also, he's 100% wrong about selfvoting; it is always aways always antitown. Always. Did I mention always?

Dead wrong.

Arguing that it's protown suggests to me that you don't really know what's meant by antitown and protown, Occam. Just because a townie does something does not mean it helps the town.

I said it was null or neutral. READ.

I got two here for you to ponder on. Show how self voting is not anti town now.

Do you want examples from outside games? If so I do too. SELF-VOTING examples. Not self-lynching examples. I'll find you some examples where self-voting wasn't ant-town when you show me some examples where it was anti-town. Not neutral, but actually ANTI-town.

NOTE: I do not claim that self-voting is protown - I claim that it is neutral, so don't waste my time with examples where its not explicitly anti-town, please.

[Occam]

Here's a few examples to back up my claim that self-voting is not anti-town:

In a Mafia Discussion thread entitled "Self-voting: Is it always a bad idea?

I do not agree, however, with the people who think that a townie should always play to keep themselves alive. In my opinion, a vanilla townie shouldn't care about being lynched in the early game (the information gained from the bandwagon far outweighs the loss of a townie, especially if the town plays properly), since the town's top priority is to kill the scum (NOT to survive).

self voting is alright with me.

Self Voting is great. It's fun seeing every time I start a new game how many ways people can react to such a harmless vote

I self-voted as town in Newbie 254 on Day Two (though it was not the hammer). My reason for doing so was that I replaced into that game on Day One and my predecessor had played a fairly scummy game so far. Things were drawing to a close for that day and I knew that despite doing my best to change people's opinion, going into the endgame with four players, one of whom was me in a rather precarious situation was less preferable than going into endgame with three and having suspicions on me no longer an issue.

Now that I'm a bit more experienced, I think I might have been able to get out of that situation without it being necessary to self-vote, but at the time and given that it was my first game I felt it was best for the town to remove myself from the equasion. Town did win in the end, so I guess it wasn't too horrible.

I'm not sure if it was the correct thing to do, but it certainly wasn't so strategically unsound that it warranted a beating around the head (at least not in my opinion).

In Mini 486, a D1 self-vote by Nelly632 was bandwagoned upon by a number of people until he unvoted and claimed vanilla.

Anyway, I was a dayvig-mason and I decided that it seemed strange for scum to do what Nelly had done and, thus, he was most likely town. On that basis, I went ahead and began interrogating Oman, who was one of the wagoners, figuring it was likely that one/some were scum. Oman, who turned out to be mafia, made a fatal slip in response to something I had said and I dayvigged him, D1.

So, yeah, self-voting is not always a bad idea (though this particular example depended on a lot of luck).

THIS IS KEY:

Self-voting early is a deliberately provocative act. Sometimes a deliberately provocative act can generate useful discussion, however making yourself easy to attack will mean it's easier for scum to attack you in a way which blends in with how the town attacks you. As such DPAs more often lead to noise and confusion, although self-voting is not really any more egregious than any other DPA.

THIS IS ALSO KEY:

I voted for myself in a Newbie I was in with Thesp because I wanted to emphasise the point that being at L-2 on the first couple of pages wasn't something to be scared about and certainly wasn't worth the big deal some of that town were making out of it. I had suspicions that at least one of those people going crazy about anyone placing a second vote was opportunistic scum and so I decided to put an end to it with a typical baiting of the scum along the lines of "come on, quicklynch me and out yourselves, hopefully we can wrap this up before teatime".

Unfortunately I was lynched, though probably through other elements of sub-optimal play on my part and not specifically for the self-vote. So while I wouldn't take self-voting in the RVS as meaning anything in particular, I know some people will go potty about it and see it as a much bigger scumtell than it probably is.

Note that the above is VERY selective quoting. There are plenty of experienced players who completely disagree and think self-voting is bad, all the time. But that's the POINT. It's NEUTRAL by virtue of the fact that it's sometimes good, sometimes terrible, and sometimes neither. People's OPINIONS don't change that. What farside and cephrir are putting forth are OPINIONS presumably based on personal experience. As evidenced by what I've cited above, it ALL DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION, and in the context of THIS GAME, it was not anti-town. It was a directive intended to achieve a very simple objective - namely, ending the unfounded, quickly forming wagon on me. I want to you all to note that so we can move past this ridiculousness and lynch farside.

Yes, I want farside lynched. That is why my vote is on her.

[Occam]

EBWOP:

Here's a few examples to back up my claim that self-voting is not

inherently and always

anti-town:

(Obviously it CAN be).

[Occam]

Most of the ones you brought up where those who are vanilla town. This game has no vanilla. Second the key points. One was a late game I'm screwed type comment the first comment is people who self vote during the random phase. None of which you did. The I self votes are from people who self vote as meta and don't care. Do you have meta that you self vote?
In conclusion self voting is anti town.

How in gods name did you draw that conclusion from that paragraph?

I like pie. I like beer. In conclusion I have pet donkey.

Al your case is me telling you it's anti town. I also pointed out your inconsistancy from saying my idea is cool to voting for me for said idea.

Yeah I changed my mind. Not a scumtell. Called thinking about it.

Placing a vote on a BP stating that it is a useless role as a reason and thinking it's a good reason to vote.

Right, to start discussion, which I said, and which it did.

Your knee jerk reaction to my attacks. Also charter's unvote is noted as more of something I suspect a scum buddy to help out his scum buddy. So don't act all look at what charcter did attitude.

Um. I reacted reasonably to you attacking. That's what you're supposed to do in this game. Knee jerk my ass. Also, charter acted reasonably. You aren't.

As for scum that hammer check out Newbie 669 and Sens quick hammer on a claimed doc. Then show me a game where town quick hammered.

One example. You're saying something is universally true because you have one example where it happened. God. Even Cephrir disagrees with you on that one.

The rules of this game aren't made up of what you've seen and done. There's a lot more to it than that and you should realize that.

[Occam]

Second the key points. One was a late game I'm screwed type comment the first comment is people who self vote during the random phase. None of which you did. The I self votes are from people who self vote as meta and don't care. Do you have meta that you self vote?

Just to clarify why you can't draw the "self-voting is anti-town" conclusion you made is wrong:

1. My whole point was that it isn't ALWAYS anti-town, so admit it. I want to hear you say it.
2. Of course I don't have that meta. I don't have a meta at all.
3. I also want you to realize and admit that my self-vote in this game was not anti-town.

[Occam]

1. never
2. only people with meta get away with it. Nat always self votes but it's during the random stage.
3. never

And here we see that farside is unable to accept overarching points and can only exist in her own universe. Clearly she's too close-minded to convince and accept that she's wrong. There ARE instances where self-voting is NOT anti-town and that's a FACT, like GRAVITY. I provided examples. You noted those examples. Those were instances where it wasn't anti-town, and my WHOLE POINT was that it is not an inherently anti-town act.

I don't mean to attack you personally but YOU are wrong and as such YOU are what I must attack. You aren't supporting or putting forth an accurate point of view, you're attempting to convince people of something that is completely unfounded and based solely on the fact that you can't accept that you're wrong about something.

Yay! Call me stubborn but the timing is way suspicious.
Good do I really have to go to every freakin game where scum quick hammered to make you happy with my point? Seriously.

The timing of what was suspicious? That's the only time I would have done it. I wouldn't have self-hammered because I agree that self-HAMMERING is anti-town, but not self-voting.

[Occam]

@farside:

2. only people with meta get away with it. Nat always self votes but it's during the random stage.

Do you allow people to get away with things based on meta? That would tell me a lot about what kind of player/scumhunter you are. A lot.

[Occam]

Bring me some evidence of self-VOTING being anti-town.... then we'll talk. If you do, I'll bring some evidence of it being protown

Yeah, that was an accident. You know I meant neutral since I said it so so so many other times.

Anyway, there wasn't much of anything special about that situation that would make a selfvote helpful. That it's derailed the conversation so far is not particularly protown.

I wasn't that helpful. It wasn't protown. It also wasn't anti-town. It was neutral. It would have been anti-town if I'd hammered, but I think it would have been anti-town for me to not put myself at L-1 there, too. That wagon was totally out of control stupid.

You mentioned how farside's argument is just an opinion, but you seem to think your opinion is fact.

It IS fact. That's the thing - mine's not an opinion. It's a fact that there are times that self-voting has not been anti-town. I don't see how you can dispute that without being ignorant.

This whole discussion is mostly irrelevant. It doesn't even matter who's right, and the fact that you're voting for each other over it seems pretty ridiculous to me.

I agree that its irrelevant. It's a theory discussion and I'm trying to get past it by making farside realize it wasn't an anti-town action, but she won't accept that.

I don't agree that I should remove my vote from farside. I had it on there for the reasons I stated, so I'm not voting her over that.

[Occam]

Crazy has only made 5 total posts sitewide since the 14th, and is evidently playing in a good number of game, so I'm not sure that justifies a vote regardless of meta.

God, I hate meta.

[Occam]

Dunno. I suppose it could mean he's just slipped under the radar since you and I have done most of the talking this game. It's not a definitive tell, but then who am I to criticize votes.

[Occam]

I also think it's worth noting that all it took for farside to drop her whole case on me and unvote was for Oman to speak up against it and Ceph to "get the point":

Cephrir gets the point. Yay. Finally. I agree I was being a jerk because I feel like Occam is just being rediculous on his vote reasons.

Neither my vote reasons nor my note changed, but for some reason your vote did.

[Occam]

Neither my vote reasons nor my vote changed

Fixed.

[Occam]

That's not the only reason I'm voting for you farside - and you know it.

[Occam]

I like everything in Oman's post except:

If Occam is scum I'm looking at:

* Empking
* Monekyman

Where does "if occam is scum" come from? The rest of your post doesn't really lead up to that.

[Occam]

@ Grem -

Wrong does not equal scum. Your plan is something scum would say.

I kind of feel like my vote on farside isn't gonna vitalize the game, so I'm moving it to someone else who has been totally scummy all game:

unvote - vote: Gremwell

[Occam]

I remember a game page 3 where scum did hammer someone at L-1 so yes if someone is town and thinks no scum wouldn't do something like that. They are living a lie or they are scum and have nothing to worry about.

So if its pretty much always scum that quick hammer (something you said) - and if someone had quickhammered - then it would have been a one for one trade. I don't see how that's bad.

Scum love to jump on opportunity when it comes to voting and lynching someone that is town.

Right, that's how I've felt about you this whole game so far. You've been pushing something you seem to know is wrong, which I don't get.

[Occam]

Farside, I wish you'd organize your posts a bit better as I have no idea what you're even responding to here:

Occam post Points against me: #1 Hi pot this is kettle guess what?
Post 2. Wow did you ever bring this up. (looks) nope not once till now. How convients.
3. Yeah for some reason I thought you said more then BP is useless for town by bad.
4. Not a misrep. You keep missing my point.

[Occam]

Occam voted me saying that he dosn't think farside is scum at all.

Um that's not what I said.

I think you and MM are probably scum partners. I think farside may be the SK. But I think voting for you is going to be more productive than voting farside today.

[Occam]

I'm not voting for Gremwall because I think Occum is scum. I agree with Farside that selfvoting is scummy and I am also suspicious of him claiming that BP townie is worthless.

Well, you're wrong about all three things you said.

[Occam]

Yeah I mean at this point I think we've both said more than is useful for the town so I'm just gonna let that go.

[Occam]

Roles aside I think Grem's played scummier. Monkeyman isn't far behind but I really don't think we ought to let the fact that this is an open setup get in the way of lynching scum.

[Occam]

it should also be noted that Occam used the same "I did X to get a reaction" bullshit too early in game....so if there was a scum list of 3...your ass would still be on it.

No... I think it's absolutely terrible when people say they did something to "get a reaction". I pretty clearly stated in the post where I voted for you (DP, the bulletproof) that I was doing it as a starting point for discussion. Right in the post. I wasn't unclear about it. If you do something specific like that I have no problem with it. But if you get attacked for voting and then claim you were just "doing it for reactions" it looks like bullshit made up after the fact.

Otherwise I like everything in DPs post.

@ DP -

Is that a self-imposed post restriction?

[Occam]

Yeah, if I had to call it right now, it would be Grem and MM as the S.C.U.M., and farside as the Narcissist. And I'm pretty sure about that.

[Occam]

Yeah I don't know how people got that wrong.

[Occam]

Can someone please tell me how to link to a post? I want to do something but I'm not sure how...

[Occam]

Thanks!

Well here is a complete listing of Gremwell's posts, followed by my analysis.

[45] In which Gremwell claims the doctor role.

[63] Gremwell comments on how the wagon forming on me seems rushed. He was right about that.

[64] Grem votes Cephrir, citing "while we're here" as his reason. Presumably he was voting Ceph for jumping on my bandwagon, which I agree with, since I did it too.

[67] Grem makes a good point about the scum just being able to work right about the BP role, which is something I also agree with. No qualms with Grem so far.

[74] Here you get the first scent that something's awry. Grem says "I'm not saying we should lynch the BP" which is good. But then he makes sure to say "we should be weary of Occam for the suggestion" - but I never suggested that we lynch the BP. Still though, Grem hasn't done anything overly scummy thus far.

[80] Grem labels my L-1 vote as an "attempted self-hammer, which is just a distortion of the facts.

[178] Nearly 100 posts later, Grem says:

The self vote is a big red flag to me, if you're town and a wagon like that ran up on you in the first 3 pages and actually went to lynch whoever had the stones to hammer you would be soundly trounced D-2.

as for the BP being more dangerous as scum it's nonsense, aside from the vig and sk who wouldn't likely target him, its worthless for scum aside from the argument that it is such an asset for the town.

Paragraph one - yes, they would, which wouldn't be a bad thing at all.

Paragraph two - is first and foremost flawed, but... earlier, Grem, you said:

I would think that in this setup that scum would have a very easy time working around a BP and killing off more important roles like tracker, jailer, any that could potentially out them

[184] Here, grem says a couple of incorrect things. First, he says that the scum do "the most night killing" in a setup where there are two other NK roles. Then what the rest of he says once again goes against what he said earlier about the BP role being pretty useless for the town. The worst thing he says is:

He's not going to be a wasted Vig kill

When that's exactly what a Bp scum would be - a wasted vig kill, because he wouldn't be a kill at all. That's part of what makes him dangerous as scum - durp.

[186] Grem makes a correction.

[191] Grem points out that he said a BP SK would be the worst case scenario - which sort of makes sense, I guess, except it's just as bad on a S.C.U.M. as it is on the SK, since they're essentially the same exact thing once there's only one S.C.U.M. left. I just wonder why he'd say this, and it seems like a BP SK is the worst case scenario for scum, but either a BP SK or a BP S.C.U.M. are equally bad for town - so this seems like a scum-driven comment.

[234] This is probably the scummiest thing Grem does - he proposes that we lynch either myself or farside and vig the other, because he thinks that, since we're arguing with one another, one of us must be scum. He says it would clear up conflict that might wind up "clouding the rest of the game".

[242] Grem says he's going to wait to talk until others talk first.

[261] This is Grem's backtrack post, where he says he was just doing it to get reactions, and that he didn't actually want his plan to go through. He then says he thinks both myself and farside are townies. I think this post is straight bullcrap.

[262] He unvotes.

[263] He unvotes again (presumably a server error or something).

So that's why I think Grem ought to be the lynch for today.

[Occam]

Wow that's a shame. That post is really ugly looking and none of my links worked.

*sigh*

Not any more!

[Occam]

Occam I know you think I'm SK or scum but why do you believe 261 is bull crap?

The backtracking and trying to cover up his tracks.

For the mafia to have the most kills that would assume the vig is part of the mafia group or am I incorrect with that thinking?

Yeah I suppose the vig could be scum since its a random shuffle - that could prove to be a noteworthy slip if/when Grem flips scum.

[Occam]

@Oman (about me and monkey being scumpartners -

I've heard of distancing, but that guy wanted to lynch me on like page 2.

On the case on MM:

First off, MM's selective-quote response is definitely scummy. You can't respond to some, but not all, of someone's points against you. Otherwise it looks like you're accepting those points, which, if you're scum, perhaps you are.

Also, it appears MM

has

been contradicting himself and "scumhunting", by his own definition, which is basically as effective at actually digging up content as trying to de-tooth a shark (they have a lot).

At the moment I'm not ready to lynch, however, and it looks like the amount of votes on MM currently is enough to make him freak out. As such I'm keeping it on his scumpartner (Gremwell), until I AM ready to lynch, in which case I will move it to MM, if that's who the town chooses - or keep it on Grem, if we decide to go that route.

@ Mod - thanks for fixing my links!

[Occam]

I understand the pitfalls of a quick lynch, but if everyone who voted for Occum thinks he is the most guilty, it doesn't really make sense to unvote to avoid lynching, if you actually think he is scum.

That's from page 4 - before Oman proposed Monkey and I might be scum together - MM actually argues with someone for

taking their vote off of me

. He's been going for my lynch pretty much all along. Just saying, Oman's accusation doesn't make much sense.

[Occam]

Thank you, monkey.

[Occam]

I think the case on Monkey grows stronger and stronger by the minute, and I'm curious what will happen when I do this:

unvote - vote: Monkey

I still think there's a decent chance that Monkey and Grem are both scum, whether they're S.C.U.M. or one of them is the SK.

[Occam]

Appeal to Emotion:

I just love being a guinie pig to see if Gremwell is scum or not.

Monkey really doesn't have solid answers to the questions directed towards him or the points raised against him. He's fallen back on making it look like we're just using him to check if Gremwell's scum when it's clear to anyone actually reading that the case against him is much more than that.

I'd really be surprised if Monkey isn't scum. Whether or not Gremwell is scum doesn't necessarily hinge on Monkey being scum, either, so I'm not sure where that's coming from. They could both be scum, like I said, and it wouldn't surprise me, as I've said many times, but the cases against both Grem and Monkey are independent of one another, so I think its worth noting that Monkey himself brought this up.

[Occam]

There's no solid case against me and everyone knows it.

Yeah... that's why you were put at L-1... because no one thinks there's no solid case against you... /sarcasm.

PS, here's another appeal...

All I ask is that if I'm lynched, when I come up town you look at those that drove my lynch.

[Occam]

@Yos - a CONFIRMED TOWN bp is one thing - an unconfirmed town BP is another. If the bp is town that's great. But we don't know what he is, and until we do, I still say he's no help. If he becomes confirmed as town that's a different story. Obviously the scum know what he is, though, so until we figure it out, he's helping the scum more than us - they can just shoot around him.

I do think it's worth considering having the cop or mason target the bp tonight, though. If he's scum we lynch him, and if he's town he becomes useful to us.

[Occam]

Then Occum(predictably) votes for me, saying he wants to "see what happens", clearly implying that he wants to see if Gremwell will vote for me or not not.

Yes, exactly.

i utterly hate all things AtE. I think it is a device that scum uses to push bullshit cases. AtE is not a case.

And yet the fact remains that Monkey used one. Also, Don't you agree with the case on Monkey? Why then do you call it a bullshit case? Additionally, the AtE is NOT the case on Monkey, it's just another thing he did on top of everything else.

I think you actually hate all things Occam, for whatever reason. Why are you trying to make it look like my whole case on MM is AtE? Because I pointed it out? That's not sufficient.

[Occam]

This is why I hate when people have to replace into games (no offense Yos). We have to retread dead ground. The questions you've asked me have been answered numerous times. It definitely looks like you're really reading every page so I'll let you find em.

[Occam]

Honestly it's tough to put things better than RR has, and (also) honestly, I wouldn't have picked up on his point number 2 - that, if anything, really drives the point home. Declaring something "policy" and then completely forgoing that policy immediately afterwords looks like scum saying "I did this because it's a policy of mine" as an easy way of explaining something - but then totally ditching that when the circumstance allows it. Adding up all four of those points really makes it hard to believe that MM is noob town instead of scum... he REALLY AND SINCERELY outright ignores or plainly doesn't answer questions, even when pressed - and then he claims there's no case on him when there is CLEARLY a solid case on him that's been building for basically the entire game.

And I would really like to hear from Gremwell.

[Occam]

I'm gonna wait till ort finishes his read to answer his questions, since I already have.

[Occam]

I think everyone should post their night actions.

I didn't commute last night.

Also lol at mind worms.

[Occam]

Highlights of Oman-scum's game (w/ commentary):

Vote: Cephrir

You don't say you're jumping on the largest bandwagon for no reason. You're doing it for a reason.

Early vote on Cephrir for bandwagoning. Distancing?

I refuse to believe occum's self vote as anything more that what it usually is: a null tell. Its interesting, but not able to be analysed right now.

you see there are too many variables to deal with here. I can give you one scum-occum for every town-occum scenario you give me. And one town-occum for every scum given to me.

We'll look back on it later, especially if occum is scum.

Weird strategy here. Defends me (oddly, Oman-SCUM was one of the few players who recognized what I was trying to say (or at least pretended to)), even though I'm under fire. I'd tend to buddy up with someone who looks protown but whatever works.

As a town we're letting people like Gremwell and monkeyman get through the net. Not to mention charter is a dangerous bastard right now. I don't think a lot of you grasp the gravity of all of this.

This stood out for whatever reason. He calls attention to MM and Grem (and we now know that MM was town). He groups Grem and MM. I was sure MM was scum - but MM's not being scum makes me rethink my opinion that Grem is scum based on Oman's comment there. I didn't and still don't "grasp the gravity" of charter - how was he dangerous?

I'd be hapy with a Monkeyman or Gremwell lynch. Monkeyman is rather transparent though, so Gremwell is more dangerous.

Again groups Grem and MM.

Plus its a risk reward thing, i'd rather kill a town politician than a town doctor.

In the light of Oman being scum this is a handy comment. MM WAS a town politician. Does this mean ort (doc) is at the very least not S.C.U.M.?

At some point Oman makes a weird post about me and MM being scumpartners. He made some mistake chronology but Oman bounces back and forth quite often on his opinion of me, one moment buddying up and saying he think's i'm town, then calling me scum pretty much out of the blue. I should have noticed that inconsistency yesterday.

So for me it seems important that Oman kept grouping Grem and MM together. I would have thrown my vote on Grem right away if not for that brief reread. Instead I'm going to wait till this claiming business gets resolved. I agree with DP on the method and that we should hold off on discussing claims till they're all done.

[Occam]

To solve this order of claiming debate why don't we do it in this order:

Resolution order for night actions:

1. Commuting
2. Blocking
3. Redirecting
4. Invention Giving
5. Protection (Blocking and protection functions of Jailkeeping will b resolved separately)
6. Killing
7. Vote Buying
8. Masoning
9. Tracking

Conveniently I claimed first and if we use this method that fits.

Also, as far as I know I was not targeted last night - at least, I wasn't informed that I was.

[Occam]

What do you mean partially claimed?

Also - I really don't think it matters at this point who "starts" the popcorn claim, because several players have already claimed.

[Occam]

Also, as far as I know I was not targeted last night - at least, I wasn't informed that I was.

That's why I was confused - I already did.

[Occam]

Let's have DP claim next then.

[Occam]

I have to say, Emp is looking a lot worse that DP in this exchange. Emp, regardless of who has more votes, I believe DP asked you those questions before you asked him. Answering them would be nice.

I also don't understand how not claiming is the same as admitting to being scum. Especially since he's BP - the only logical conclusion to draw from his unwillingness to claim is that he was waiting to reveal whether or not he was targeted. How you can draw the conclusion that he's scum from that, I'm not sure.

I don't think either side of this claiming order debate is any more or less right or scummy than the other. It really doesn't matter whether the person who starts is randomly chosen by dice or if someone just starts. To me the order of night actions method made most sense, but regardless, I also don't understand Emp's insistence that rolling dice was scummy. How? It's still random and DP still can't control it.

For pressing this bizarre, weak case to no logical end,

vote: Empking

[Occam]

.why is no one else up in arms about Emp's avoidance of questions, lies, and shitty anti-town play?

I just voted him for it.

And I don't think I ever said you (DP) were not answering questions.

[Occam]

I got the same impression, that for whatever reason he was trying to connect himself to me. It didn't make any sense particularly because he was in no danger of being killed. I think I can agree that emp and ceph are possible partners - I looked at Oman but I didn't notice the connections between ceph and emp.

[Occam]

Hmm. It's a reasonable plan but only if you're hoping to catch a liar, not scum. LAL, IMO, is not safe or particularly effective. Catching liars and catching scum are two different things.

[Occam]

You're trying to plan out someone's night action, why should the town get behind that when they don't know your alignment?

A fair point.

I also agree that planning night actions out loud is not a good course of action.

Suggestions

are certainly welcome but straightforward direction, or worse, mass-claim of planned actions, is not cool.

[Occam]

Plus, as far as night actions are concerned I find that

lying

about them can be

protown

, so that's another gaping hole in LAL. Lying about claims is one thing, but lying about night actions can go either way, without a doubt. The entire point is to keep the scum as uninformed as possible, because they already know more than the town, and telling them what we're going to do can only hurt.

[Occam]

Plus, everyone will know that I'm not going to be able to commute tomorrow, scum included, if we follow ML's plan. I don't agree with it.

[Occam]

It would be bad because I could be NKd, yes, and we won't know what our situation is going to look like going into N3 until the end of day 3, so it's impossible to say where we will be then. It could potentially be very bad for the town if the scum know they can kill me N3.

[Occam]

LOL

[Occam]

as if there's some sort of a "I *heart* cancer" group for them to protest against.

Good point, I'll go make one right away.

Emp's looking worse and worse pushing this point so far beyond the point of reason.

[Occam]

what's to stop the scum from NK'ing you and framing someone else?

How do you know there's a framer?

[Occam]

Oh. Nevermind. I'm stupid.

[Occam]

It looks to me like charter was just wrong, not necessarily scum, because of his misunderstanding. Being wrong doesn't make you scum.

Emp still thinks DP's "reluctance" is scummy, so I'm still leaving my vote on him.

[Occam]

Having Ceph hammer Emp is clearly the best option here. I think Emp is scum and Ceph has played a very scummy game as well. I don't see how that's not the most advantageous route to take, so I'm keeping my vote on Emp.

[Occam]

Hmm. But I suppose the problem is, as Mac pointed out, that really, all Ceph has to do to avoid having to hammer Emp is lurk for the next couple of days, unless we get a deadline extension. I will have enough time to monitor this game over the next two days and see how things pan out - if we get the extension I advocate my plan, if not we might have to quickly rethink it.

[Occam]

Yeah, no deadline extension means I'm going with Ceph.

I hate seeing "When I'm dead look at X and Y."

unvote - vote: Ceph

I feel confident that we have a scum here.

[Occam]

Am I correct in thinking that I can't be SK or mafia? The only possible scenario is if RR is lying about ML protecting me and one of those kills was actually made by me.

I think so, except that the possibility that RR is lying is a bit more possible than it at first appears. You might mistakenly take RR's report at immediate face worth, because the SK and scum are opposing forces, and therefore aren't collaborating, but RR could still be lying to appear protown, so I have a feeling it's a mistake to immediately accept that explanation.

Then again, Occam's razor suggests that you are probably not responsible for the kills, and I can't see an immediate advantage to RR's action of clearing a townie if he were either type of scum.

However, RR's targeting ML for tracking seems awfully convinient the day after ML died. It's quite easy to fake a tracking on a dead person, who cannot verify the accuracy of that action. Hmm, I can't decide either way right now, so I am going to say that I'm neutral on the issue of RR faking the report, and definitely not going to consider charter cleared by it (sorry).

[Occam]

Also I am not aware that I was targeted last night.

[Occam]

There must be a way we can plan our night actions so as to make it impossible for scum to win - as long as we lynch right today, that is.

Remember that conversation we had way back when about whether or not it would be dangerous to have a bulletproof scum? Well, I have a feeling we've hit that point in the road. I

think

we need to lynch Claus in order for any sort of night action coordinating to be effective, so I advocate that for the moment - but I'm going to need to think through and see if it's possible to use our night actions FTW - I think there's got to be a way.

[Occam]

Yeah I really don't like the way ort is putting himself up as a vig target. If you were town you'd want to live through a night that could potentially equal a town loss if we mislynch today - so you clearly aren't too concerned about the town winning.

[Occam]

I'm still trying to figure out if there's a foolproof method of using out night actions in order to win the game. The problem I've having is that no matter how I figure it, there's still a chance that RR is scum, which is a big problem, even if we decide to take it for granted that charter is cleared. If we lynch claus today, and he flips scum, the probability of ort being scum is much higher than the chance of RR being scum based on night action claims.

I don't think there should be a vig kill tonight if claus doesn't flip scum.

[Occam]

Yeah, the reason I advocated a no vig tonight is because it would establish the PD situation. However, that's not really a reliable way of dispensing of scum.

Any way I look at it though, if it's going to be either myself, Claus, or ort today, lynching Claus is the only thing that makes sense. Having a bulletproof alive tonight makes it that much harder to use night actions to our advantage. He can't be killed by scum or the vig, so he has a free pass into tomorrow.

You will have to take me at my word on this, of course, but I can't commute tonight, as I used it last night. This means that there's a possibility of at least 3 targets to draw fire tonight (unless ort is scum, which is possible, and means he probably won't be protecting anyone, in which case there will be 4 targets).

Can someone explain what a "kingmaker" situation is? I haven't played a kingmaker game.

[Occam]

About my no-vig advocacy, that's why I asked for assistance in fleshing out this plan. I usually can't think through these situation completely on my own - I am terrible at math.

[Occam]

I'm in favour of just lynching him right now (yer that's obvscum of me etc.)

No, I agree, we should.

[Occam]

Well, three of us are OK with it. I think as long as charter agrees, we can go through with it.

[Occam]

Yup.

vote: Claus

[Occam]

Wow! I was really nervous going into that last night. I knew I'd survive since I could commute, but I figured the crosskills wouldn't work in my favor. I am almost positive I would have been killed on day 4. Good game everybody!