Mini #717 - Alpha Centauri Smalltown (Game Over!)

[farside22]

I refuse to believe occum's self vote as anything more that what it usually is: a null tell. Its interesting, but not able to be analysed right now.

you see there are too many variables to deal with here. I can give you one scum-occum for every town-occum scenario you give me. And one town-occum for every scum given to me.

We'll look back on it later, especially if occum is scum.

I think self voting when he did and saying it's town is terrible thing to say. It's not a null thing in my view. The are very, very few times I vote for self and I can see scum doing it to gain sympathy.

You see scumtell, I see nulltell. We're different. I'll review it later, but you must agree that ciphrirs clean lie is a worse act than a selfvote.

No because he did it when he was under pressure and he attacked with a weak vote on me basically saying what I did was the same as what he did, which is false. So no.
Where cephrir deffinately needs to explain himself.

[Cephrir]

If it was a bandwagon vote, why would I word it as though I hadn't noticed the other votes? When I finished what I was saying and decided to random vote, I just looked up and his was the first name I saw. Don't get why it's being assumed that I'm lying.

Occam's selfvote is weird, there's not much else to say about it. I do think it's a slight scumtell, there's no protown reason to pull shenanigans like that, ever, but he seemed to think it made sense.

Vote: Oman

for assuming that I'm lying for no apparent reason, and for not finding Occam at least a bit shady after that exchange.

[Occam]

There was nothing scummy about my self-vote. I did it knowingly, so you'd all say "holy crap, why is he at L-1, that's ridiculous" (which it was). The point was to get a vote off of me, which I did. Then I put my vote where I actually wanted it.

I'm sure I could look through games and find countless instances of self-voting that was scummy, countless where it was protown, and countless where it was null - which this was. I'm not arguing it was a protown move, I just want some breathing room.

Just FTR I still don't think BP is a significant town role in comparison to all the others. The thing I think you might have overlooked is that EVERYONE in the game is a power role. There aren't any weak, vulnerable vanillas - in an ordinary setup, BP would definitely be an asset - but in this game, not so much.

[Occam]

@ Ceph -

If your "random vote" had been the hammer, do you think it would have looked scummy? If it had been the hammer, you could have used the very same defense: essentially, I voted without reading the game. How is this situation different than that one?

[Drunken Piper]

Whoa I am gone for a couple hours,
3 pages gone, and many sour…

(sip)

I will get the colonel please....look for scum to try to hang me day one...nice....

Bulletproof sounds dangerous in the hands of scum and essentially useless for town, since everyone already knows who's bulletproof. Based on that:

vote: DP

...

Please explain to me your reasoning behind this statement? How is me being bulletproof DANGEROUS to the town? I am not lynch proof..or investigation proof…RB proof.. Other than the vig, who else uses bullets and how does that make me dangerous…

This is a bullshit reason to vote (obvious not random) and my vote will be going here pending on the rest of the read.

Post 69, now I should be hung because I am useless?...bullshit.

Post 76, now he is flaking and self voting, putting self at -1?

Wait he admits it was a ploy to get votes off of him.

Occam please explain to me why a.) you felt I was a good lynch because I was useless…b.) explain to me why I am usless over other roles…c.) explain to me how I am a danger to the town…d.) explain to me how I am a bigger danger to the town over being a danger to scum…and finally e.) do you really see no advantage for us having someone who is bulletproof against scum?

[Occam]

Wait he admits it was a ploy to get votes off of him.

No. Mirepresentation. I self-voted to get the votes off of me.

a.) you felt I was a good lynch because I was useless…

One vote is not a lynch, and it got discussion moving, which is a very good thing.

b.) explain to me why I am usless over other roles…

I have explained to you why I think your role is useless compared to the rest. I never said you were. In fact, nothing in my case was based on anything you did. It was purely to motivate role discussion - which it did. You act like I had five votes or something - it was one vote.

c.) explain to me how I am a danger to the town

When did I say you were?

d.) explain to me how I am a bigger danger to the town over being a danger to scum

Again, I never said you were.

e.) do you really see no advantage for us having someone who is bulletproof against scum?

Not over any other role in the game, no, I really don't. You're a player who can make it to the endgame if he isn't lynched. That's it.

[Cephrir]

@ Ceph -

If your "random vote" had been the hammer, do you think it would have looked scummy? If it had been the hammer, you could have used the very same defense: essentially, I voted without reading the game. How is this situation different than that one?

I did read the game, I guess I just didn't pay attention to where the votes were going. I'd hope I would have noticed if every single player who posted before me had randomly voted you. If not, then yes, it would look scummy, and I'd probably deserve to be lynched for missing that, and I certainly probably would be. But one doesn't generally think a random vote on page 3ish can possibly be hammer.

Also, DP is right. There's no reason bulletproof would be particularly dangerous for the scum to have, since the vig/SK would know who had the BP role. And there's an obvious advantage to having it, it's just not huge.

[Cephrir]

Simulpost. It's still not a bad ability. If DP is partially cleared through roleblocking/tracking, or he's just playing a very protown game, the scum won't be able to get rid of him.

[Occam]

Are there any roles that are inherently anti-town? Would it be worth lynching roles that are, as a starting point?

Bulletproof sounds dangerous in the hands of scum and essentially useless for town, since everyone already knows who's bulletproof. Based on that:

vote: DP

That was my initial comment, for reference. Where did I even say I wanted him lynched?

People assume that because you vote for someone, it means you want them lynched, which is a completely flawed assumption. Your vote is a tool. I have used it already in this game for three different reasons.

[MonkeyMan576]

Anti- town roles:

Janitor
Terrorist
Framer

those are what come to mind.

[Cephrir]

People assume that because you vote for someone, it means you want them lynched, which is a completely flawed assumption. Your vote is a tool. I have used it already in this game for three different reasons.

THis is true, but your initial comment does make it sound like you want to lynch him, as you suggest lynching antitownish roles and then cite his role as dangerous in the hands of scum.

[Occam]

Anti- town roles:

Janitor
Terrorist
Framer

those are what come to mind.

Where's that coming from? None of those roles exist in this game. I assume you're saying that BP isn't an anti-town role. I agree. But as far as roles go, BP is the least useful of the roles we have. Period. I'm done discussing BP and am ready to move on if you are - my vote is already elsewhere.

[Occam]

THis is true, but your initial comment does make it sound like you want to lynch him, as you suggest lynching antitownish roles and then cite his role as dangerous in the hands of scum.

That comment makes it sound like I want him lynched? Really?

[Occam]

Would it be worth lynching roles that are, as a starting point?

Ah, this does make it sound like I wanted him lynched. It's a poorly structured sentence. "As a starting point" was meant as "as a starting point for discussion", not, "lets lynch useless roles to start with", I can see how that would be misinterpreted easily.

[MonkeyMan576]

Anti- town roles:

Janitor
Terrorist
Framer

those are what come to mind.

Where's that coming from? None of those roles exist in this game. I assume you're saying that BP isn't an anti-town role. I agree. But as far as roles go, BP is the least useful of the roles we have. Period. I'm done discussing BP and am ready to move on if you are - my vote is already elsewhere.

Well, I disagree that BP is useless, especially with a SK/Vig in the game.

[Occam]

I would agree that BP isn't useless if this was not an open setup, but guess what - it is. Everyone knows you're BP. No surprises. People just aren't going to try to kill you at night - they'll kill someone else.

[Drunken Piper]

what a sorry sack
with a backtrack.

(sip)

Are there any roles that are inherently anti-town? Would it be worth lynching roles that are, as a starting point?

Bulletproof sounds dangerous in the hands of scum and essentially useless for town, since everyone already knows who's bulletproof. Based on that:

vote: DP

That was my initial comment, for reference. Where did I even say I wanted him lynched?

People assume that because you vote for someone, it means you want them lynched, which is a completely flawed assumption. Your vote is a tool. I have used it already in this game for three different reasons.

a vote means what, you didnt want me lynched?

explain to me how being bulletproof is "dangerous in the hands of scum"

also when you say "dangerous" who am I dangerous too? I asked you to explain WHY I was dangerous to the town, you retorted with, "when did I say you were"...so Mr. Avoid Questions, who am I dangerous to?

Also you see no other advantage to me being bulletproof?...hmmm, scum has to lynch me to kill me...not a big one to you?...way to down play my role...

vote occam

dont avoid my questions anymore.

[MonkeyMan576]

I would agree that BP isn't useless if this was not an open setup, but guess what - it is. Everyone knows you're BP. No surprises. People just aren't going to try to kill you at night - they'll kill someone else.

Well, it's one less person for the doctor to protect, at least. The bulletproof can go scum hunting as much as they want without worrying about scum retalliation.

[Occam]

a vote means what, you didnt want me lynched?

Umm... no. It means I wanted to start discussion, in that instance. Other times, it means other things.

explain to me how being bulletproof is "dangerous in the hands of scum"

A. No vig kill
B. No crosskill by SK, and crosskills tend to work out quite nicely for town.

There's two reasons.

also when you say "dangerous" who am I dangerous too? I asked you to explain WHY I was dangerous to the town, you retorted with, "when did I say you were"...so Mr. Avoid Questions, who am I dangerous to?

You don't have to be dangerous to be useless. I said your role was useless to the town.

Also you see no other advantage to me being bulletproof?...hmmm, scum has to lynch me to kill me...not a big one to you?...way to down play my role...

UM, that's the point I've been making all along. The scum just DOESN'T kill you. You're just THERE. Being BP doesn't make you proven town, it just makes you BP, so the town can't be any more sure you're town than they could of anybody else - PLUS, the scum wouldn't CARE about getting you lynched, because you're freakin BULLETPROOF. What are you gonna do to them? Sit there in a vest?

dont avoid my questions anymore.

Eff you dude. I went through POINT BY POINT and answered every single one.

[Occam]

You don't have to be dangerous to be useless. I said your role was useless to the town.

EBWOP: If you're TOWN you aren't dangerous to the town, you're role is just useless. If you're SCUM you're dangerous to the town for the reasons i listed above.

[Oman]

DP doesn't look like a bandwagon vote, because he has a page of discussions first. You see the difference there?

Cephrir OMGUSes me well too

Danger is not a part of the BP, but I can see what Occum is saying as a theory discussion. The inability to NK him means that if he plays his daygame right, he's invulnerable.

Mod:

If BulletProof Scum makes the kill does he retain his bulletproofedness?

[Drunken Piper]

Around and around we go
Where the bullshit stops who knows.

(drink)

dont avoid my questions anymore.

Eff you dude. I went through POINT BY POINT and answered every single one.

Really you answered my initial questions?!?

c.) explain to me how I am a danger to the town

When did I say you were?

d.) explain to me how I am a bigger danger to the town over being a danger to scum

Again, I never said you were.

This was an avoidance. You DID imply I was a danger to the town…why did you avoid this question? Why did I have to ask you twice before you stood behind your answer?

Also interesting comment here.

Umm... no. It means I wanted to start discussion, in that instance. Other times, it means other things.

explain to me how being bulletproof is "dangerous in the hands of scum"

A. No vig kill
B. No crosskill by SK, and crosskills tend to work out quite nicely for town.

No vig kill, no crosskill by the SK….interesting wording here. Why not say no crosskills period. Why did you say no crosskills by the SK? Cant the mafia crosskill the SK too?

also when you say "dangerous" who am I dangerous too? I asked you to explain WHY I was dangerous to the town, you retorted with, "when did I say you were"...so Mr. Avoid Questions, who am I dangerous to?

You don't have to be dangerous to be useless. I said your role was useless to the town.

I love how you skirt by the question. WHEN YOU SAID MY ROLE WAS DANGEROUS IN SCUM HANDS, WHO WERE YOU SAYING I WAS DANGEROUS TOO (IF NOT TOWN)? I ask this, because when I asked you the first time, you coyly said “when did I say that”…I asked you again and you talk about being useless which has nothing to do with my question. …you said I was dangerous in the hands of scum…not just useless to town.

I have a feeling you realize your vote and reasonings were bullshit and couldn’t back them up at first. So when people call you on it…you deny saying you thought my role is dangerous to the town and go with the old “I didn’t want him lynched, I was just stirring up conversation” bullshit.

Vote stays.

[Occam]

This was an avoidance. You DID imply I was a danger to the town…why did you avoid this question? Why did I have to ask you twice before you stood behind your answer?

Perhaps if you worded your questions more clearly I could actually answer them (as I did in my last post when I finally figured out what you were talking about).

This was an avoidance. You DID imply I was a danger to the town…why did you avoid this question? Why did I have to ask you twice before you stood behind your answer?

You really think you're some kind of bigtime lawyer, don't you? You worded your question in a way that made it sound like you were asking me why you were a danger to the town if you were a bulletproof townie - which you obviously aren't, and I never said you were, so YES, I DID ANSWER YOUR QUESTION. Asking the RIGHT question will get you the "right" answer.

I love how you skirt by the question. WHEN YOU SAID MY ROLE WAS DANGEROUS IN SCUM HANDS, WHO WERE YOU SAYING I WAS DANGEROUS TOO (IF NOT TOWN)? I ask this, because when I asked you the first time, you coyly said “when did I say that”…I asked you again and you talk about being useless which has nothing to do with my question. …you said I was dangerous in the hands of scum…not just useless to town.

Dude, are you seriously asking me why you being scum is dangerous for the town? WTF is your deal? Scum is dangerous to the town by virtue of being scum - THAT'S THE FOUNDATION THE GAME IS FOUNDED ON.

I have a feeling you realize your vote and reasonings were bullshit and couldn’t back them up at first. So when people call you on it…you deny saying you thought my role is dangerous to the town and go with the old “I didn’t want him lynched, I was just stirring up conversation” bullshit.

You're being completely ridiculous. I didn't want you lynched. this is key, so listen:

I NEVER THOUGHT NOR DID I SAY YOUR ROLE WAS DANGEROUS TO THE TOWN IF YOU WERE TOWN. I SAID IT WAS USELESS. I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY YOU'RE DANGROUS TO THE TOWN. YOU HAVE TO BE THIRTEEN YEARS OLD TO REGISTER FOR THIS SITE AND I ASSUME ANYONE OVER THE AGE OF THIRTEEN CAN FIGURE THAT OUT ON THEIR OWN.

If that's a flawed assumption, please explain why.

[Occam]

(sigh)... this EBWOP is really going to take away from the gusto of that last post, but:

I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY YOU'RE DANGROUS TO THE TOWN AS SCUM.

Fixed.

[Occam]

No vig kill, no crosskill by the SK….interesting wording here. Why not say no crosskills period. Why did you say no crosskills by the SK? Cant the mafia crosskill the SK too?

Also, missed this - but I assume that (since you figured out what I meant) you can figure out what I meant.