Mini #717 - Alpha Centauri Smalltown (Game Over!)

[Drunken Piper]

Updating from page of 6,
To give this game a quick fix…

(sip)

JESUS CHRIST..for the record SCUM can be mafia OR the SK…some people in this read think scum just means mafia…and it doesn’t.

Still find it hard to swallow that farside didn’t know there was a SK in the game.

I don't see anything wrong or scummy with Occam's posts.

Then you sir are blind or have information that no one else does. Noting this remark.

Also

unvote

…
..while I read.

I'm asking how voting for himself gains him sympathy, and why that only gives scum sympathy and not town.

I agree with this point. I have self voted as town and scum…however in all 3-4 cases it never helped (or if it did only in the short term). At this point in the game (page 6) I feel that Occ is scummy for other reasons than that self vote.

Other weirdness:

Bulletproof sounds dangerous in the hands of scum and essentially useless for town, since everyone already knows who's bulletproof. Based on that:

vote: DP

...

Please explain to me your reasoning behind this statement? How is me being bulletproof DANGEROUS to the town? I am not lynch proof..or investigation proof…RB proof.. Other than the vig, who else uses bullets and how does that make me dangerous…

Occam is quite clearly saying that BP is a dangerous scum power. This is either a clear misrep or you're admitting that you're scum.

you are CLEARLY NOT READING THE FULL THREAD..why is that? I know Occam is saying that a BP is dangerous to the town, HE is the one denying that he said it...How is this a misrep of ANYTHING? I know this is 6 pages back from where the game is currently, but I would still like an answer to this one…

Also, it should be noted that since Occum voted for Ceph, it is unlikely that they are both scum. That means either they are both town, Occum is scum and Ceph is town, or Ceph is scum and Occum is town. Since they have both exhibited questionable behavior, I think the first scenario is unlikely, I think they are on opposite teams. That means if we lynch one and they are town, then we can lynch the other one day 2(unless better info comes along), and they will likely be scum.

you must be new or scum.

What if for a second I believed you as town. What happens when you put yourself at L-1 and some scum still hasn't voted. Your vote, your single vote is in terms self lynching at that point. Deal with it.

A self-lynch is when you lynch yourself. L-1 is not a self-lynch. Think. Your tunnelvision is completely ridiculous.

I hate when people play the semantic game and you seem to be a fan of that. If someone would have hammered your vote would have been a self lynching vote...the fact you are using this to vote IS ridiculous.

---
OK self voting IS anti-town, but sometimes it is necessary to do (I find). I disagree with Flay on this point. In this particular case I don’t see how it was necessary. That being said, it got him out of the lead for being lynched..so if it was his intention or not, it got him from being lynched today. If the move was anti-town or pro-town no one will REALLY know until he is dead or end game. All else right now is theory chat. I don’t think that farside was misrepresenting occam (page 8)…both farside and occam have done some scummy things, but not what they are being attacked for..which I find VERY FUCKING confusing.

This whole discussion is mostly irrelevant. It doesn't even matter who's right, and the fact that you're (farside and occam) voting for each other over it seems pretty ridiculous to me.

QFT

Wait Crazy's in this game and being quiet:

Woop, woop, woop, meta scum alert. This is not a test

vote: Crazy

As I said there are a few players meta works because they play a certain way each time. Crazy being quiet as he is, is almost always scum.

I dont like this post at all. Maybe if it was at a different point in the game...but it's positioning is suspect. Meh, your explanation (in 220) makes me feel a little better, but charter has a good point (in 221).

116

- Why is DP so aggressive here? The truth is, I've played with DP (and his...brother) and this is definatly a town tell for him. Huge cop out on the couplets though

It got increasing tougher to talk in rhymed couples for the entire game. It hurt my game…once I changed it (just rhymed on the top) it got better.

Since they dominated the last few pages, and most people seem to have an opinion one way or the other, how many people think that either one of farside or occam is defiantly scum?

the reason I ask is that if we can at least agree on that much then we could lynch one and vig the other, I doubt anyone would disagree with a one for one trade

of course this hinges on one of them being definite scum, not just two townies slugging it out

its just a suggestion, as I can see this conflict clouding the rest of the game.

this post is horrid.

I will wait to comment until others weigh in

As is this.

Monkeyman

why would you vote someone you thought was stupid over someone you thought was town?

Only scum would vote someone they thought was town.

FOS: Oman

You are being stupid. Read some more, maybe the next two posts or so. Then stop being an idiot, com back and talk to me.

I thought it was a good question (the scum variant). Why did you not pursue an answer? He blantantly avoided the REAL question (twice).

I like everything in Oman's post except:

If Occam is scum I'm looking at:

* Empking
* Monekyman

Where does "if occam is scum" come from? The rest of your post doesn't really lead up to that.

There is a possibility I'm wrong. I accept that. I don't think you're scum, but if you are, these two look like scumbuddies.


Also on the Gremwell's "either Farside or OCcam is scum" I believe they are not both scum, though one could be scum and the other SK so its interestingly useless to think that way.

This makes no sense. I haven't referred to Empking in any of my posts, and gave several solid reasons for my Occum vote.

Does this set off red flags in anyone else's head?

yes, and I would still like him to answer your question.

Ok I was hoping to get more people's thoughts on that but I think a day's long enough, anything more and it will get lost in the shuffle.

obviously I didn't actually want a plan like that to go through, I proposed it to get reactions, mainly on how fariside and Occam would respond in regards to the idea.

What I got is that as far as I could tell neither really that sure the other is scum, Farside criticized my plan and Occam voted me saying that he dosn't think farside is scum at all.

from the others I got a lot of FOS's, which was expected, but not much else.

In conclusion, my personal feelings on farside/Occam is right now two townies, though there is something to be said about the level of how personally they seem to be taking the argument, but that said personal shots and vendettas loose games.

I think this post is bullshit. I hate all things "I did X to get a reaction". I don’t think I can count how many times I have seen scum use this line of bullshit when getting caught doing something scummy.

Whaaaat???
Are you kidding me? Politician? He botches using that once (before LYLO) and everyone will know he's scum. I don't see any use for Politician as scum before LYLO. Doctor cuts the chances of crosskills down by a lot. What makes you think politician is more dangerous in the hands of scum than doctor? (I don't see it, so I want to be enlightened)

I dont think we should lynch or not lynch based on roles page 1. Though I do think it is important to note who wants what role lynched for later game. We should lynch who is the scummiest.

Roles aside I think Grem's played scummier. Monkeyman isn't far behind but I really don't think we ought to let the fact that this is an open setup get in the way of lynching scum.

Agreed.

I actually want to know why those voting MM picked him over Gremwell. I can see a possibility (remote though it may be) that MM just blew up over getting called scum as town. It doesn't excuse the rest of his scummy actions, but I think regardless, Gremwell is worse.

Gremwell is bad but I think the overreaction is worse.

what overreaction?

===

At this point I think

Vote Gremwell

The scummiest with MM right behind.

[Drunken Piper]

it should also be noted that Occam used the same "I did X to get a reaction" bullshit too early in game....so if there was a scum list of 3...your ass would still be on it.

[iamausername]

"If I determine the enemy's disposition of forces while I have no perceptible form, I can concentrate my forces while the enemy is fragmented. The pinnacle of military deployment approaches the formless: if it is formless, then even the deepest spy cannot discern it nor the wise make plans against it."

-- Sun Tzu, "The Art of War", Datalinks

-=Vote Count #9=-

Gremwell (3) - Occam, charter, Drunken Piper
MonkeyMan576 (2) - Empking, Oman
Occam (1) - MonkeyMan576
Raging Rabbit (1) - farside22

Not Voting (5) - Cephrir, christiano drago, Raging Rabbit, Gremwell, MacavityLock

7 to lynch.

[Oman]

I'm acutally using SCUM for mafia onyl because of S.C.U.M. and the like confusing me. I'm now moving to both sk and mafia = scum.

[Occam]

it should also be noted that Occam used the same "I did X to get a reaction" bullshit too early in game....so if there was a scum list of 3...your ass would still be on it.

No... I think it's absolutely terrible when people say they did something to "get a reaction". I pretty clearly stated in the post where I voted for you (DP, the bulletproof) that I was doing it as a starting point for discussion. Right in the post. I wasn't unclear about it. If you do something specific like that I have no problem with it. But if you get attacked for voting and then claim you were just "doing it for reactions" it looks like bullshit made up after the fact.

Otherwise I like everything in DPs post.

@ DP -

Is that a self-imposed post restriction?

[farside22]

MM certainly looks panicy just for a comment made by one player: (Post 257)
chater: Post 276 I dont' like when players stat Oh I thought that sounded weird too comments. It irks me because why not say anything sooner. Means you are worried about what people will say if you bring it up, which = scum to me.
MM: Post 287: Not what you said at all.
MM: Post 295: How big of you

MM did a over reaction to a simple comment. I get a scum squiring who got caught comment from post 257. Like the what did I do. There was no reason for him to react as he has and post 287 is not what was said at all.

unvote:
vote: MonkeyMan576

[MonkeyMan576]

You guys are silly. We have two prime candidates who have actually done scummy things, in Occum and Gremwall, and you are voting for me, for being upset at being labled scum without a good reason.

[charter]

Didn't everyone hammer on Occam for saying Bulletproof was good for scum?

The thing is, do you think that Occam using his ability night one is anti-town?

How is this an answer to my questions or an explaination of how doctor isn't as dangerous in scums hands as politician? That's all I'm looking for.
To answer that second question, if he botches then it's anti town. If he doesn't, then it's not anti town. It's up to how he uses it.

I don't see any way that farside isn't scum.
MM, that's why you're very suspicious, you're just repeatedly saying "You shouldn't be suspicious of me, vote this guy!" which is very scummy.

[Occam]

Yeah, if I had to call it right now, it would be Grem and MM as the S.C.U.M., and farside as the Narcissist. And I'm pretty sure about that.

[farside22]

Yeah, if I had to call it right now, it would be Grem and MM as the S.C.U.M., and farside as the Narcissist. And I'm pretty sure about that.

Knowing you are wrong about me I will take that bet and make my own thoughts as scum.
MM and charter. (charter is way to mean about a simple question and him saying MM is a second choice makes me thing partners and him hoping for a mislynch on Grem. SK is a little bit harder for me. Still would like to hear more from the Crazy replacement.

[MacavityLock]

you are CLEARLY NOT READING THE FULL THREAD..why is that? I know Occam is saying that a BP is dangerous to the town, HE is the one denying that he said it...How is this a misrep of ANYTHING? I know this is 6 pages back from where the game is currently, but I would still like an answer to this one…

I read the whole thread, and Occam never said that BP is dangerous for the town. He said BP-scum is dangerous for the town. There's a difference.

[Occam]

Yeah I don't know how people got that wrong.

[charter]

Well, if people don't start voting Gremwell soon I'm just going to move on to MM. I still think Gremwell is the scummiest, but MM and farside are right behind.

[MonkeyMan576]

Like I said, I'd be glad to vote for Gremwall if necessary for a lynch, but certainly not as a threat.

[Empking]

Well, if people don't start voting Gremwell soon I'm just going to move on to MM. I still think Gremwell is the scummiest, but MM and farside are right behind.

Why would you change your vote?

[Oman]

I want to see if farside jumps off the monkeyman wagon.

[farside22]

I want to see if farside jumps off the monkeyman wagon.

I won't be unless someone does something just as scummy.
I find the MM wagon informative. Actually both votes going as they are I find both informative but believe MM scummy compared to Grem. I think those on Grem are seeing what he said as scummy and I understand the reasons. I just disagree. Yes what he said was bad. I even FOS'ed, well I cant' smack the boy for saying something anti-town can I? Seriously though when he stated why and what he learned from it I thought it was a good thought process. Everyone is jumping on him because he did it for reaction. Now I don't know if this is true or not. It is pretty dumb thing to say.
MM on the other hand is over reacting to a simple statement. When he said "but I didn't say anything to or about empking" that just makes me go hmmm. It's a very weird comment to make. Not why do you think I"m scum, but he notes the interactions you made a comment on. Then he lies about what he said and that just sends of my scumdar.
So if you are going to ask me if I"m switching to Grem the answer is no.

[Oman]

I want to see if farside jumps off the monkeyman wagon.

I won't be unless someone does something just as scummy.

Which you will likely find now.

Except for Grem, your scumbuddy (I kid)

[Occam]

Can someone please tell me how to link to a post? I want to do something but I'm not sure how...

[Empking]

Code: Select all

[url]https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=10062&start=[insert post number here][/url]

[Occam]

Thanks!

Well here is a complete listing of Gremwell's posts, followed by my analysis.

[45] In which Gremwell claims the doctor role.

[63] Gremwell comments on how the wagon forming on me seems rushed. He was right about that.

[64] Grem votes Cephrir, citing "while we're here" as his reason. Presumably he was voting Ceph for jumping on my bandwagon, which I agree with, since I did it too.

[67] Grem makes a good point about the scum just being able to work right about the BP role, which is something I also agree with. No qualms with Grem so far.

[74] Here you get the first scent that something's awry. Grem says "I'm not saying we should lynch the BP" which is good. But then he makes sure to say "we should be weary of Occam for the suggestion" - but I never suggested that we lynch the BP. Still though, Grem hasn't done anything overly scummy thus far.

[80] Grem labels my L-1 vote as an "attempted self-hammer, which is just a distortion of the facts.

[178] Nearly 100 posts later, Grem says:

The self vote is a big red flag to me, if you're town and a wagon like that ran up on you in the first 3 pages and actually went to lynch whoever had the stones to hammer you would be soundly trounced D-2.

as for the BP being more dangerous as scum it's nonsense, aside from the vig and sk who wouldn't likely target him, its worthless for scum aside from the argument that it is such an asset for the town.

Paragraph one - yes, they would, which wouldn't be a bad thing at all.

Paragraph two - is first and foremost flawed, but... earlier, Grem, you said:

I would think that in this setup that scum would have a very easy time working around a BP and killing off more important roles like tracker, jailer, any that could potentially out them

[184] Here, grem says a couple of incorrect things. First, he says that the scum do "the most night killing" in a setup where there are two other NK roles. Then what the rest of he says once again goes against what he said earlier about the BP role being pretty useless for the town. The worst thing he says is:

He's not going to be a wasted Vig kill

When that's exactly what a Bp scum would be - a wasted vig kill, because he wouldn't be a kill at all. That's part of what makes him dangerous as scum - durp.

[186] Grem makes a correction.

[191] Grem points out that he said a BP SK would be the worst case scenario - which sort of makes sense, I guess, except it's just as bad on a S.C.U.M. as it is on the SK, since they're essentially the same exact thing once there's only one S.C.U.M. left. I just wonder why he'd say this, and it seems like a BP SK is the worst case scenario for scum, but either a BP SK or a BP S.C.U.M. are equally bad for town - so this seems like a scum-driven comment.

[234] This is probably the scummiest thing Grem does - he proposes that we lynch either myself or farside and vig the other, because he thinks that, since we're arguing with one another, one of us must be scum. He says it would clear up conflict that might wind up "clouding the rest of the game".

[242] Grem says he's going to wait to talk until others talk first.

[261] This is Grem's backtrack post, where he says he was just doing it to get reactions, and that he didn't actually want his plan to go through. He then says he thinks both myself and farside are townies. I think this post is straight bullcrap.

[262] He unvotes.

[263] He unvotes again (presumably a server error or something).

So that's why I think Grem ought to be the lynch for today.

[Occam]

Wow that's a shame. That post is really ugly looking and none of my links worked.

*sigh*

Not any more!

[farside22]

I admit 184 caught my attention the most in all that. I'm not going to argue about other stuff.
For the mafia to have the most kills that would assume the vig is part of the mafia group or am I incorrect with that thinking?
Looks at roles in front.
Nope just the vig would make the scum able to be a group with "the most night killing". Just something to ponder.
Occam I know you think I'm SK or scum but why do you believe 261 is bull crap?

[Occam]

Occam I know you think I'm SK or scum but why do you believe 261 is bull crap?

The backtracking and trying to cover up his tracks.

For the mafia to have the most kills that would assume the vig is part of the mafia group or am I incorrect with that thinking?

Yeah I suppose the vig could be scum since its a random shuffle - that could prove to be a noteworthy slip if/when Grem flips scum.

[charter]

Well, if people don't start voting Gremwell soon I'm just going to move on to MM. I still think Gremwell is the scummiest, but MM and farside are right behind.

Why would you change your vote?

I think MM is scum too. MM has more votes and none of the people voting him will vote for Gremwell for who knows what reason. It's kind of sad, but I'm actually kind of waivering on MM, mostly because of the ease at which people will vote him, and the difficulty in getting people to vote Gremwell (who is far scummier).

I find the MM wagon informative. Actually both votes going as they are I find both informative but believe MM scummy compared to Grem. I think those on Grem are seeing what he said as scummy and I understand the reasons. I just disagree. Yes what he said was bad. I even FOS'ed, well I cant' smack the boy for saying something anti-town can I? Seriously though when he stated why and what he learned from it I thought it was a good thought process. Everyone is jumping on him because he did it for reaction. Now I don't know if this is true or not. It is pretty dumb thing to say.

Why did you FOS? What did he do that prompted it?

I also disagree that the MM wagon will yield much information. Certainly much less than Gremwell will. Everyone voting him is doing it because of the same one reaction. So if he gets lynched, you can't find any scum off it because everyone is using the same reason.