Mini #717 - Alpha Centauri Smalltown (Game Over!)

[Occam]

Most of the ones you brought up where those who are vanilla town. This game has no vanilla. Second the key points. One was a late game I'm screwed type comment the first comment is people who self vote during the random phase. None of which you did. The I self votes are from people who self vote as meta and don't care. Do you have meta that you self vote?
In conclusion self voting is anti town.

How in gods name did you draw that conclusion from that paragraph?

I like pie. I like beer. In conclusion I have pet donkey.

Al your case is me telling you it's anti town. I also pointed out your inconsistancy from saying my idea is cool to voting for me for said idea.

Yeah I changed my mind. Not a scumtell. Called thinking about it.

Placing a vote on a BP stating that it is a useless role as a reason and thinking it's a good reason to vote.

Right, to start discussion, which I said, and which it did.

Your knee jerk reaction to my attacks. Also charter's unvote is noted as more of something I suspect a scum buddy to help out his scum buddy. So don't act all look at what charcter did attitude.

Um. I reacted reasonably to you attacking. That's what you're supposed to do in this game. Knee jerk my ass. Also, charter acted reasonably. You aren't.

As for scum that hammer check out Newbie 669 and Sens quick hammer on a claimed doc. Then show me a game where town quick hammered.

One example. You're saying something is universally true because you have one example where it happened. God. Even Cephrir disagrees with you on that one.

The rules of this game aren't made up of what you've seen and done. There's a lot more to it than that and you should realize that.

[Occam]

Second the key points. One was a late game I'm screwed type comment the first comment is people who self vote during the random phase. None of which you did. The I self votes are from people who self vote as meta and don't care. Do you have meta that you self vote?

Just to clarify why you can't draw the "self-voting is anti-town" conclusion you made is wrong:

1. My whole point was that it isn't ALWAYS anti-town, so admit it. I want to hear you say it.
2. Of course I don't have that meta. I don't have a meta at all.
3. I also want you to realize and admit that my self-vote in this game was not anti-town.

[farside22]

Second the key points. One was a late game I'm screwed type comment the first comment is people who self vote during the random phase. None of which you did. The I self votes are from people who self vote as meta and don't care. Do you have meta that you self vote?

Just to clarify why you can't draw the "self-voting is anti-town" conclusion you made is wrong:

1. My whole point was that it isn't ALWAYS anti-town, so admit it. I want to hear you say it.
2. Of course I don't have that meta. I don't have a meta at all.
3. I also want you to realize and admit that my self-vote in this game was not anti-town.

1. never
2. only people with meta get away with it. Nat always self votes but it's during the random stage.
3. never

Yay! Call me stubborn but the timing is way suspicious.
Good do I really have to go to every freakin game where scum quick hammered to make you happy with my point? Seriously.

mutters
farside do this. farside do that. farside you suck.

[Occam]

1. never
2. only people with meta get away with it. Nat always self votes but it's during the random stage.
3. never

And here we see that farside is unable to accept overarching points and can only exist in her own universe. Clearly she's too close-minded to convince and accept that she's wrong. There ARE instances where self-voting is NOT anti-town and that's a FACT, like GRAVITY. I provided examples. You noted those examples. Those were instances where it wasn't anti-town, and my WHOLE POINT was that it is not an inherently anti-town act.

I don't mean to attack you personally but YOU are wrong and as such YOU are what I must attack. You aren't supporting or putting forth an accurate point of view, you're attempting to convince people of something that is completely unfounded and based solely on the fact that you can't accept that you're wrong about something.

Yay! Call me stubborn but the timing is way suspicious.
Good do I really have to go to every freakin game where scum quick hammered to make you happy with my point? Seriously.

The timing of what was suspicious? That's the only time I would have done it. I wouldn't have self-hammered because I agree that self-HAMMERING is anti-town, but not self-voting.

[Occam]

@farside:

2. only people with meta get away with it. Nat always self votes but it's during the random stage.

Do you allow people to get away with things based on meta? That would tell me a lot about what kind of player/scumhunter you are. A lot.

[farside22]

@farside:

2. only people with meta get away with it. Nat always self votes but it's during the random stage.

Do you allow people to get away with things based on meta? That would tell me a lot about what kind of player/scumhunter you are. A lot.

Not every player has meta. People who believe that every player has a meta is a wrong. However there are some players (IE: few) that what they do they will do in every game because that is the type of player they want to be or are. So for those players that do act like that, Yes. For those who are inconsistant, No.

[Cephrir]

I do not claim that self-voting is protown

O RLY?

Bring me some evidence of self-VOTING being anti-town.... then we'll talk. If you do, I'll bring some evidence of it being protown

Anyway, there wasn't much of anything special about that situation that would make a selfvote helpful. That it's derailed the conversation so far is not particularly protown.

And here we see that farside is unable to accept overarching points and can only exist in her own universe. Clearly she's too close-minded to convince and accept that she's wrong. There ARE instances where self-voting is NOT anti-town and that's a FACT, like GRAVITY. I provided examples. You noted those examples. Those were instances where it wasn't anti-town, and my WHOLE POINT was that it is not an inherently anti-town act.

I feel the need to point out that this is unnecessarily overdramatic.

You mentioned how farside's argument is just an opinion, but you seem to think your opinion is fact.

This whole discussion is mostly irrelevant. It doesn't even matter who's right, and the fact that you're voting for each other over it seems pretty ridiculous to me.

[Occam]

Bring me some evidence of self-VOTING being anti-town.... then we'll talk. If you do, I'll bring some evidence of it being protown

Yeah, that was an accident. You know I meant neutral since I said it so so so many other times.

Anyway, there wasn't much of anything special about that situation that would make a selfvote helpful. That it's derailed the conversation so far is not particularly protown.

I wasn't that helpful. It wasn't protown. It also wasn't anti-town. It was neutral. It would have been anti-town if I'd hammered, but I think it would have been anti-town for me to not put myself at L-1 there, too. That wagon was totally out of control stupid.

You mentioned how farside's argument is just an opinion, but you seem to think your opinion is fact.

It IS fact. That's the thing - mine's not an opinion. It's a fact that there are times that self-voting has not been anti-town. I don't see how you can dispute that without being ignorant.

This whole discussion is mostly irrelevant. It doesn't even matter who's right, and the fact that you're voting for each other over it seems pretty ridiculous to me.

I agree that its irrelevant. It's a theory discussion and I'm trying to get past it by making farside realize it wasn't an anti-town action, but she won't accept that.

I don't agree that I should remove my vote from farside. I had it on there for the reasons I stated, so I'm not voting her over that.

[Oman]

Occam lynch is full of fail. Even if he is scum (though I recon he's floundering town), its for really really bad reasons.

Anyway, stop with all this *rolleyes* at you. No *rolleyes* at you bullshit, it doesn't get us anywhere.

As a town we're letting people like Gremwell and monkeyman get through the net. Not to mention charter is a dangerous bastard right now. I don't think a lot of you grasp the gravity of all of this.

I'll try to fully knock this on its arse tonight with a fantastic post

[iamausername]

"Richard Baxton piloted his Recon Rover into a fungal vortex and held off four waves of mind worms, saving an entire colony. We immediately purchased his identity manifests and repackaged him into the Recon Rover Rick character with a multi-tiered media campaign: televids, touchbooks, holos, psi-tours--the works. People need heroes. They don't need to know how he died clawing his eyes out, screaming for mercy. The real story would just hurt sales, and dampen the spirits of our customers.

-- "Mythology for Profit"
Morgan Stellartots Keynote Speech

-=Vote Count #5=-

Cephrir (3) - Gremwell, Oman, Empking
Occam (3) - MonkeyMan576, farside22, Drunken Piper
farside22 (2) - charter, Occam
Oman (1) - Cephrir

Not Voting (3) - christiano drago, Crazy, MacavityLock

7 to lynch.

[Empking]

As a town we're letting people like Gremwell and monkeyman get through the net. D

In your own words, what have they done that's scummy.

[farside22]

Cephrir gets the point. Yay. Finally. I agree I was being a jerk because I feel like Occam is just being rediculous on his vote reasons.

unvote:

I need to look at stuff I missed during the argument.

[MonkeyMan576]

Yeah, I'm not getting into silly arguments or voting for myself. He must be scum:).

[Oman]

Obviously fell asleep at my keyboard typing it. Will fix it during the day today.

[farside22]

Wait Crazy's in this game and being quiet:

Woop, woop, woop, meta scum alert. This is not a test

vote: Crazy

As I said there are a few players meta works because they play a certain way each time. Crazy being quiet as he is, is almost always scum.

[Oman]

As a town we're letting people like Gremwell and monkeyman get through the net. D

In your own words, what have they done that's scummy.

This will come later in mh big post. But take a look at IIRC Gremwell's post on why he thinks OCcam is scum.

[Occam]

Crazy has only made 5 total posts sitewide since the 14th, and is evidently playing in a good number of game, so I'm not sure that justifies a vote regardless of meta.

God, I hate meta.

[farside22]

Crazy has only made 5 total posts sitewide since the 14th, and is evidently playing in a good number of game, so I'm not sure that justifies a vote regardless of meta.

God, I hate meta.

Since he picked his choice for this game he has made a total of 10 post all on other games.
Note his last post was Dec 13, today is Dec 17.
You really believe his lack of post in this game is not suggestive in any way?

[Occam]

Dunno. I suppose it could mean he's just slipped under the radar since you and I have done most of the talking this game. It's not a definitive tell, but then who am I to criticize votes.

[charter]

@Farside, me saying I think Ceph could be scum because of meta hardly constitutes a case. I can see you aren't going to answer my questions, so I have to assume the answers incriminate you. As a side note, I'd be careful about linking to MD threads, I've been modkilled for doing it.

What question am I dodging. Oh wait I'm not I'm answering the questions and you don't like my answers that's all. How is voting for self not scummy again? Why did you unvote (still unanswered speaking of dodging questions)

ITS NOT SCUMMY BECAUSE HE DOESNT GAIN ANY ADVANTAGE DOING IT AS SCUM THAN AS TOWN. I UNVOTED BECAUSE I DONT WANT A LYNCH ON WHAT, PAGE 5? I ALREADY SAID BOTH OF THESE.

What if for a second I believed you as town. What happens when you put yourself at L-1 and some scum still hasn't voted. Your vote, your single vote is in terms self lynching at that point. Deal with it.

Only scum would speedhammer in such a way on day one. This isn't self lynching, it would out one scum. Your scenario is so horribly flawed it hurts.

I show a valid point and the best you have is I'm misrep the vote? Really the fact that someone unvoted you looks more suspicious as scum don't mind having an L-1 vote. A town person should be worried about L-1.

No, your point was flat out wrong.

at FOSing a logical statement. I didn't say it was 100% true, I said it was likely, and a possible strategy, not one that we have to follow if something better comes along.

I Fos'ed you because I see scum pull this MUCH more often than town.

alright then could you kindly explain to me how a role who's sole power is to be immune to a night kill makes it more dangerous than normal to be in the hands of the group doing the most night killing.

He's not lynch proof

He's not going to be a wasted Vig kill

in fact the worst case scenario would be a BP SK, not scum

STOP WASTING OUR TIME WITH THE BP STILL. START TALKING ABOUT CATCHING SCUM (FARSIDE FOR INSTANCE). It's painfully obvious that you're just trying to coast through and don't care about finding scum.

Around this point I stop reading farsides posts and just skim Occams for stuff not dealing with farsides extremely obvious being scum.

I don't understand why anyone is voting for farside. Occam just seems to be getting PO'd and considering it a case. Glorified OMGUS, basically. Also, he's 100% wrong about selfvoting; it is always aways always antitown. Always. Did I mention always?

Arguing that it's protown suggests to me that you don't really know what's meant by antitown and protown, Occam. Just because a townie does something does not mean it helps the town.

Her logic is blatently (probably knowingly too) wrong. She's inventing things and twisting facts. She's really obvious scum.
You know that antitown does not equal scummy right?
Also, Occam is right, I can show you examples (well, just one) of SELF HAMMERING IN A NEWBIE GAME being arguably the best move for the town.

Not going to keep arguing with farside, it is going nowhere. Honestly, I've seen enough for a day one. I don't even care that Crazy hasn't posted, he's a poster child for a SK kill tonight. I'm not voting Occam, but I'd lynch any of farside, Ceph, MM, or Gremwell. Farside is by far the scummiest. She is using wrong logic, she is looking for any easy target she can, SHE ISN'T ACTUALLY LOOKING FOR SCUM (but feigning it), and is now doing the everhelpful voting the lurker when there is plenty of discussion going on. (I might add that there's others besides Crazy that are worthy of a vote for lurking, but do they get included? Nope.)

[farside22]

Pheff the only chat has been me and occam. charter what about my post is it that you really find scummy. Do you think it's okay for someone who claims to be town to put themselves at L-1?
I've done more debating in this game but scum hunting when arguing is going on arguing always wins.
The only other person besides crazy I question is you. Someone who is making the "sacrific" to unvote someone at L-1 because what a town thing to do is complete BS.
I never invented anything. I showed where people find self voting anti town. Occam shows those who do it and think it's fun to do. I still believe it is not in the best interest of the town to self vote.
I think you YELLING doesn't not make you look like oh look I'm scum hunting as you say. All you are doing is twisting everything said because I find self voting anti town.
I find Occam comment from one post to another post questionable (which he admitted) and yes the whole BP is useless crap that I disagree with.
No role is useless this game. Players are useless if they are not playing. Hence my vote on Crazy who is I know as a lurker when he is scum.

[charter]

I could point out (again) where you invented me saying your idea was scummy. I could point out (again) where you claim he must be scum because he self voted, when that's not true. I could point out (again) how he wasn't "sacrificing" anything, he did it with a purpose and he did a good job acheiving that.

But no, it's useless, I don't think anyone else reads my posts and you just ignore all but tiny bits and peices.

And do you know what we do with players that don't post farside? WE REPLACE THEM!!!!! YAY!! Wanting to lynch the tracker (or anyone actually) when they haven't made a single post, well it just strengthens my point that you don't care who gets lynched.

[Occam]

I also think it's worth noting that all it took for farside to drop her whole case on me and unvote was for Oman to speak up against it and Ceph to "get the point":

Cephrir gets the point. Yay. Finally. I agree I was being a jerk because I feel like Occam is just being rediculous on his vote reasons.

Neither my vote reasons nor my note changed, but for some reason your vote did.

[Occam]

Neither my vote reasons nor my vote changed

Fixed.

[Cephrir]

Unvote

.

I need to figure out where this argument that farside is using craplogic is coming from, it seemed fine to me when I read it the first time.