Mini #717 - Alpha Centauri Smalltown (Game Over!)

[MonkeyMan576]

Sorry about the mistake. Trying to get better.

No, you said you switched because you wanted your vote to be used for something, not that he was the scummiest. Also, the contradiction in 295 is worse, and you avoided addressing it.

Well, they're both actually true. I DO want my vote to mean something. I don't see the point of keeping my vote on Occum when I think Gremwell is scummy as well, and the town is clearly in favor of a Gremwell lynch. I'm really torn between Gremwell and Occum as who I think is scummiest. I've considered everyone's opinions, and Gremwell's behavior WAS really bad, but Occum HAS messed up more than once. So it's really hard to say.

Scumhunting is finding flaws and asking about them, trying to dig deeper into the game.

Well, I suppose some would try to find flaws in every single player, and some would try to concentrate on those they find most guilty. My playing style is the latter.

[Oman]

In the interests of positve gaming, you'll get the hang of all this formating stuff. Don't worry too much at the moment, content > format.

[Occam]

@Oman (about me and monkey being scumpartners -

I've heard of distancing, but that guy wanted to lynch me on like page 2.

On the case on MM:

First off, MM's selective-quote response is definitely scummy. You can't respond to some, but not all, of someone's points against you. Otherwise it looks like you're accepting those points, which, if you're scum, perhaps you are.

Also, it appears MM

has

been contradicting himself and "scumhunting", by his own definition, which is basically as effective at actually digging up content as trying to de-tooth a shark (they have a lot).

At the moment I'm not ready to lynch, however, and it looks like the amount of votes on MM currently is enough to make him freak out. As such I'm keeping it on his scumpartner (Gremwell), until I AM ready to lynch, in which case I will move it to MM, if that's who the town chooses - or keep it on Grem, if we decide to go that route.

@ Mod - thanks for fixing my links!

[MonkeyMan576]

First off, MM's selective-quote response is definitely scummy. You can't respond to some, but not all, of someone's points against you. Otherwise it looks like you're accepting those points, which, if you're scum, perhaps you are.

If I'm selective quoting it is an oversight. I'm happy to respond to any questions.

[Oman]

@Oman (about me and monkey being scumpartners -

I've heard of distancing, but that guy wanted to lynch me on like page 2.

I need to check this, but from memory he doesn't get all tough on you until I say you look like partners.

[Occam]

I understand the pitfalls of a quick lynch, but if everyone who voted for Occum thinks he is the most guilty, it doesn't really make sense to unvote to avoid lynching, if you actually think he is scum.

That's from page 4 - before Oman proposed Monkey and I might be scum together - MM actually argues with someone for

taking their vote off of me

. He's been going for my lynch pretty much all along. Just saying, Oman's accusation doesn't make much sense.

[farside22]

Occam: Why do you feel both Grem and MM are scum?
Grem: I want to know what made you say that scum has more killing ability in post 184
MM: There was no vote against you when Oman made the statement he did in regards to your scum partners. He stated that Occam (disagree by the way) and Emp where your partners and you made a comment about how you were associated with Emp. This has been stated by myself before but you keep just saying nothing about your own reaction and now you are saying you reacted to a vote.

[iamausername]

"The first living thing to go through the device was a small white rat. I still have him, in fact. As you can see, the damage was not so great as they say."

-- Academician Prokhor Zakharov, "See How They Run"

-=Vote Count #12=-

Gremwell (5) - Occam, charter, Drunken Piper, Cephrir, MonkeyMan576
MonkeyMan576 (5) - Empking, Oman, farside22, MacavityLock, Raging Rabbit

Not Voting (2) - christiano drago, Gremwell

7 to lynch.

[Raging Rabbit]

MM's totally strawmanning, ignoring both parts of ML's attack and the

entriety

of my own.

MM, some questions for you, to force a proper reply this time around:

1. The main reason Gremwell is suspected is for trying to line up kills on farside and occam, creating a false dillema stating one of them has to be guilty. In 166, you did the very same thing, only a bit more subtly, with Ceph instead of Farside and a suggested sencond lynching instead of overnight vigging. Since the core of the idea is the same, what exactly in Gremwell's play do you find scummy?

2.

My policy is not to change my vote unless I think the new person I'm voting for is more scummy than the person I'm currently voting.

And yet you moved your vote to Gremwell, despite explicitly saying you don't find him scummier than Occam, and even in fact that you'll be "glad to vote him if necassary for a lynch,

but certainly not as a threat

". How is this not a contradiction?

3. In his big summary post, Oman asked you:

why would you vote someone you thought was stupid over someone you thought was town?

Which is obviously not a logical question. This was quickly pointed out by empking, and corrected:

No Empking, not correct.

Correction:

Monkeyman

Why would you vote someone you thought was stupid over someone you thought was scum?

This form is both the obvious way the question was meant to be taken, and appears in bold like two posts below it. Still, you chose to reply:

Only scum would vote someone they thought was town.

FOS: Oman

It was pointed out multiple times that you chose to answer what is clearly not the right form of the question, and yet you still chose to ignore it. Why? Also, why would you vote someone you thought was stupid over someone you thought was scum?

4. How does doing two unrelated things you don't like create a "pattern"? Is comitting two scumtells always more indicative than comitting a single one, regardless of how strong they are?

5. If selfvoting is equally unwise for town and scum, how is it a scumtell?

6. Are you suspicious of Occam for undervalueing BP's power in the hands of scum (if yes, explain why this is a scumtell), voting early in the game for a weak basis (if yes, explain why this is a towntell), or both (explain both)?

Note that I'm not going into the matter of your initial reaction to being suspected, which I think there's less point questioning you about but is definitely a strong issue.

[Raging Rabbit]

I've heard of distancing, but that guy wanted to lynch me on like page 2.

That's actually a very possible tactic, since going for your buddy's throat early d1 allows you lots of leeway to possibly take you case back later. However, I don't think MM is experienced enough to have done that, so I agree you're an unlikely partner for him. So is Grem, for that matter, because of MM's double standards concerning him which allowed a comfortable bandwagon vote. Since MM is extremely likely scum imo, I'm opposed to a Gremwell lynch.


Oh, and MM -- scumhunting involes hunting, actually going after the people you suspect, adding to the cases on them, asking them and gauging their reactions. It also involves being on a constant lookout for suspicious behavior. You seem content with just naming suspects. That's not actual scumhunting, and therefore scummy.

[MonkeyMan576]

1. The main reason Gremwell is suspected is for trying to line up kills on farside and occam, creating a false dillema stating one of them has to be guilty. In 166, you did the very same thing, only a bit more subtly, with Ceph instead of Farside and a suggested sencond lynching instead of overnight vigging. Since the core of the idea is the same, what exactly in Gremwell's play do you find scummy?

He said he would not give his opinion until others did. Even though I have waited to change my vote to see if other players would be aggreeable to my attack on Occum, I have always been upfront about my opinions. Withholding information, even, maybe even especially your opinions, is definatley a scumtell.

2.And yet you moved your vote to Gremwell, despite explicitly saying you don't find him scummier than Occam, and even in fact that you'll be "glad to vote him if necassary for a lynch,

but certainly not as a threat

". How is this not a contradiction?

My opinion on Gremwell changed(for the worse), and I decided attacking Occum was no longer productive. I'm entitled to change my opinion, and weigh others opinions when appropriate.

3. It was pointed out multiple times that you chose to answer what is clearly not the right form of the question, and yet you still chose to ignore it. Why? Also, why would you vote someone you thought was stupid over someone you thought was scum?

I was trying to point out what I saw as a freudian slip.

4. How does doing two unrelated things you don't like create a "pattern"? Is comitting two scumtells always more indicative than comitting a single one, regardless of how strong they are?

Obviously, committing one grave error is worse that commiting two minor errors, but I don't feel that Occum's errors are minor. When confronted with this issue, one has to consider the problem on a case by case basis, and in this case I felt the other players arguments were compelling, and I didn't feel my argument against Occum was being taken seriously(regardless of the merits), so I decided it best to change my vote.[/b]

5. If selfvoting is equally unwise for town and scum, how is it a scumtell?

If you are town, then you are voting for a known townie(yourself), and if you are scum, self voting is a very forward and clumsy tactic, and you are letting your clumsy play be known to the town, when you should be more subtle.

[Quote="RagingRabbit]6. Are you suspicious of Occam for undervalueing BP's power in the hands of scum (if yes, explain why this is a scumtell), voting early in the game for a weak basis (if yes, explain why this is a towntell), or both (explain both)?

[/quote]

Mostly I am suspicious of Occam for 1) Undervaluing townie BP and 2) Self Voting. I would have to do more research to consider the other two possible scumtells.

[Empking]

Is Undervaluing townie BP scummy? Why?

[Oman]

I understand the pitfalls of a quick lynch, but if everyone who voted for Occum thinks he is the most guilty, it doesn't really make sense to unvote to avoid lynching, if you actually think he is scum.

That's from page 4 - before Oman proposed Monkey and I might be scum together - MM actually argues with someone for

taking their vote off of me

. He's been going for my lynch pretty much all along. Just saying, Oman's accusation doesn't make much sense.

My bad, along with RR's points I'm happy to declare myself wrong here that you two do not seem like scumbuddies right now.

[Raging Rabbit]

My opinion on Gremwell changed(for the worse), and I decided attacking Occum was no longer productive. I'm entitled to change my opinion, and weigh others opinions when appropriate.

You're entitled to change opinions, but stating a

policy

of yours which then disappears into thin air is very scummy.

I was trying to point out what I saw as a freudian slip.

This is not an answer. Why ignore the actual question? Why are you

still

ignoring the actual question?

Obviously, committing one grave error is worse that commiting two minor errors, but I don't feel that Occum's errors are minor. When confronted with this issue, one has to consider the problem on a case by case basis, and in this case I felt the other players arguments were compelling, and I didn't feel my argument against Occum was being taken seriously(regardless of the merits), so I decided it best to change my vote.[/b]

Somewhat taking back your earlier satement a about a pattern here, but whatever.
Anyways, what arguments by other players against Gremwell did you find compelling?

If you are town, then you are voting for a known townie(yourself), and if you are scum, self voting is a very forward and clumsy tactic, and you are letting your clumsy play be known to the town, when you should be more subtle.

This is not an answer. How is it a scumtell, than?

Mostly I am suspicious of Occam for 1) Undervaluing townie BP and 2) Self Voting. I would have to do more research to consider the other two possible scumtells.

Also not an answer. Why is undervaluing a role scummy?

[Cephrir]

That last MM post was just bad.

[MonkeyMan576]

You're entitled to change opinions, but stating a

policy

of yours which then disappears into thin air is very scummy.

Not really, one has to weigh standard policy vs the individual case.

This is not an answer. Why ignore the actual question? Why are you

still

ignoring the actual question?

That is my answer. I'm sorry that you don't like it.

.

Somewhat taking back your earlier satement a about a pattern here, but whatever.
Anyways, what arguments by other players against Gremwell did you find compelling?

That's the main one.

This is not an answer. How is it a scumtell, than?

If you are town, you do not vote for town(yourself). Occum voted for himself, meaning either he is scum or he has some alterior motive, and is just acting scummy. Either way, a scumtell

Mostly I am suspicious of Occam for 1) Undervaluing townie BP and 2) Self Voting. I would have to do more research to consider the other two possible scumtells.

Also not an answer. Why is undervaluing a role scummy?[/quote]

This habit of yours of saying something is not an answer, when in fact you just don't like the answer, is rather annoying. But to clarify, if you undervalue a role, it gives you a reason to vote for a possible townie, and then when they turn up town, say, "it's not a big deal because it's not an important role."

[Oman]

I'm with RR here, a lot of your posts are not answers. The trend in him saying that is more server side than client side if you get my drift.



question MM: Why would you vote someone you thought was stupid over someone you thought was scum?

[MacavityLock]

You're entitled to change opinions, but stating a

policy

of yours which then disappears into thin air is very scummy.

Not really, one has to weigh standard policy vs the individual case.

Except for the fact that you changed your mind on this "policy" less than 20 posts later. Changing your mind like that is very simply an excuse to jump votes.

Seriously guys, this is getting kind of silly. Is there any point to discussing night actions for Night 1, or is it too early/too many people to make complicated plans?

[MonkeyMan576]

question MM: Why would you vote someone you thought was stupid over someone you thought was scum?

In Occum's case, I thought he was stupid AND scum.

[MonkeyMan576]

You're entitled to change opinions, but stating a

policy

of yours which then disappears into thin air is very scummy.

Not really, one has to weigh standard policy vs the individual case.

Except for the fact that you changed your mind on this "policy" less than 20 posts later. Changing your mind like that is very simply an excuse to jump votes.

Seriously guys, this is getting kind of silly. Is there any point to discussing night actions for Night 1, or is it too early/too many people to make complicated plans?

Really, you're reading to much into it. I switched from Occum to Gremwell because I thought they're both scummy, that's it. Now, either you think Gremwell is scum, or you think I'm scum. If you think I'm scum, get on with it and don't be suprised when I come up town, considering I'm the one who caught Gremwell's main scumtell. But it's really telling that niether Occum or Gremwell have voted for me, because they both know that if they hammer me and I turn up town, they will(rightfully) be looked on as scummy.

[Occam]

Thank you, monkey.

[Raging Rabbit]

Not really, one has to weigh standard policy vs the individual case.

Your treatment of said individual case flat out contradicts your claimed policy.

That is my answer. I'm sorry that you don't like it.

There are two questions followed by the sentence "that's not an answer". One of which you answered just now in an unconvincing manner, the other you haven't at all. That's not providing answers I don't like, it's flat out ignoring the questions.

If you are town, you do not vote for town(yourself). Occum voted for himself, meaning either he is scum or he has some alterior motive, and is just acting scummy. Either way, a scumtell

But you just said it's just as much of a bad play for scum to vote themselves as it is for town. How, then, is Occam doing something you consider bad play regardless of alignment indicative of him belonging to any particurlar one? In other words, anti town doesn't equal scummy.

That's the main one.

Huh? What is?
(See what I mean about not answering questions?)

This habit of yours of saying something is not an answer, when in fact you just don't like the answer, is rather annoying.

Well, your habit of taking the questions you're actually asked and either turn them into something else you have an easier time answering or just ignore them is scummy as hell.


What do you think of MM, Occam?

[Drunken Piper]

stopping by to say.
that I will be posting on Monday

[Occam]

I think the case on Monkey grows stronger and stronger by the minute, and I'm curious what will happen when I do this:

unvote - vote: Monkey

I still think there's a decent chance that Monkey and Grem are both scum, whether they're S.C.U.M. or one of them is the SK.

[MacavityLock]

Now, either you think Gremwell is scum, or you think I'm scum.

Methinks the Monkey doth protest too much. When Monkey flips scum, I think there's a good chance that Grem is a buddy.