Mini Normal 1609: The Case Of Doctor Pepper (Game Over)
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TellTaleHeart Mafia Scum
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In post 19, Csareo wrote:In post 12, TellTaleHeart wrote:I'm a neighbor with BBT and from the pregame chatter coupled with the opening vote while lacking a forthcoming explanation, I'm already very distrusting of him.
VOTE: BBT
Maybe you can explain his meta for us more trusting folks?
What's making you ask about meta? I didn't mention that.
In post 32, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:I still don't understand her coming for me straight away and letting everyone know there is a neighbourhood. That's just anti-town at best and scummy at worst.
Oh? And why is that?
In post 29, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Very interesting. You knew I suspected you right? That's why you've come out all guns blazing on me. Opening vote? It's RVS, is there a reason you're so paranoid?
I believe TTH slipped to me in the neighbour thread. It looked like she was replying to somebody else with the way she started her message. I think she knows she slipped and is trying to get me out of the way.
Well, I was already immediately suspicious of BBT the moment I saw he was just a neighbor in my role PM. Aren't scum neighbors really common here? I don't know the statistics, but don't mods make neighborhoods mixed alignments a lot of the time?
I asked BBT about how he planned on reading Wake88. I did this because I had read a couple games with Wake88 in it prior to this and I saw that in both instances, he was a very divisive figure. My logic was that I wanted to get a baseline from BBT by asking him about something he likely wouldn't lie about (his philosophy on reading a certain player) and see if he actually followed through with it in the subsequent day.
The only thing I neglected to do was make sure BBT had actually played a game with Wake88, but I just figured BBT was here long enough to have done so.
He got really weirdly defensive about it and asked me why I was asking about Wake in particular, as if that was questionable. Then he comes out "guns blazing" to begin the day and I'm guessing he probably wasn't going to let everyone else in on what went on the neighborhood QT given that he left his first post completely unexplained.-
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TellTaleHeart Mafia Scum
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In post 49, Anatole Kuragin wrote:In post 44, TellTaleHeart wrote:I'm unnerved by your tone, Anatole Kuragin.
“Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night.”
You're trying to be cute and disarming.
It's having very much the opposite effect for me.-
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TellTaleHeart Mafia Scum
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In post 56, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:What advantage do town gain by outing the neighbourhood on P1?
To develop reads and force you to be accountable for your vote.
Now, since you like framing things in a leading way, What advantage do scum gain by outing the neighborhood on P1?-
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In post 59, Wake1 wrote:Well, that's odd. Someone I don't who doesn't know me says I'm a divisive player, while completely ignoring my posts. Unsure if that account is simply trolling. Do you reckon it's scummy for a slot to ignore your posts while trying to discredit you? That doesn't sound right.
I didn't discredit you and I'm quite serious. I don't think you're a bad player, you just seem to happen to be the subject of a lot of scrutiny.
Also, all your posts this game only contain questions specifically addressed to other players and a color coded playerlist, so I don't have anything to say about them yet.-
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TellTaleHeart Mafia Scum
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In post 125, Wake1 wrote:Correction: She was talking about me (despite not really knowing me), and I don't think she's played with me before. However, this doesn't exclude the possibility that she's really an alternate account. I'm not saying she has played with me before.
I'm not an alternate account nor do I have any first-hand experience with you nor is it even close to being a "slip". Upon entry to the site, I read Open 529 and Mini 1493 and that's the context I "know" you in.
If you want to say those two games are unfairly representative of your play, that's fine. I'm not here to argue that. But in both of those games, you became a centerpiece of the discussion fairly quickly. That was the logic behind my meta questioning, though:
In post 38, TellTaleHeart wrote:I asked BBT about how he planned on reading Wake88. I did this because I had read a couple games with Wake88 in it prior to this and I saw that in both instances, he was a very divisive figure. My logic was that I wanted to get a baseline from BBT by asking him about something he likely wouldn't lie about (his philosophy on reading a certain player) and see if he actually followed through with it in the subsequent day.
In post 129, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:In post 128, Anatole Kuragin wrote:Uhh.. so are you going to explain it wake?
What do you think the first part of the post is in response to?
'I haven't played with him before'... It looks like it was a response to a different player/topic, no?
I just happened to put the pronoun ("he") before the antecedent ("Wake"). I didn't know it would be that confusing to you.
In post 130, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Especially given there was 2 hours between her first two posts. Why did she not post her questions on Wake in her first response?
I made the first post while my attention was divided. I also wanted to take time to think of something to say that was more than idle chatter.-
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TellTaleHeart Mafia Scum
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In post 133, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Does it look like newbscum asking for advice on how to deal with a potential problem?
Maybe I should point out that I was asking how to approach theread.
Scum seem to tend to not need those.-
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I reviewed the first few pages and I'm working from townreads on Wake, Doogal, Boonskiies, and GreyICE for various reasons.
I'm waffling on BBT. I initially thought he was just going to try to railroad me and not even bring up the neighborhood stuff in order to not bring attention to the fact that he himself was a neighbor. If he really thought he was chasing a real scumslip, I would think he would go ahead and claim and shout it from the rooftops from the first post. But when I read this post, I think his philosophymightbe to play stuff close to the vest at first. I'm unsure.
I've already said I'm scumreading Ruffling for his passivity. There's a couple more characters on the periphery of the discussion whom I'm developing scumreads on, most notably massive.
Others have yet to be sorted, but those reads are still in the embryonic phase and I prefer not to share them yet.-
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In post 142, Doogal121 wrote:TTH: Why, of all players, did you pick Wake as the first one to isolate in discussion?
I bolded the answer in the following quote. Everything else is context.
In post 134, TellTaleHeart wrote:I'm not an alternate account nor do I have any first-hand experience with you nor is it even close to being a "slip". Upon entry to the site, I read Open 529 and Mini 1493 and that's the context I "know" you [Wake88] in.
If you want to say those two games are unfairly representative of your play, that's fine. I'm not here to argue that. But in both of those games, you became a centerpiece of the discussion fairly quickly. That was the logic behind my meta questioning, though:
In post 38, TellTaleHeart wrote:I asked BBT about how he planned on reading Wake88. I did this because I had read a couple games with Wake88 in it prior to this and I saw that in both instances, he was a very divisive figure.My logic was that I wanted to get a baseline from BBT by asking him about something he likely wouldn't lie about (his philosophy on reading a certain player) and see if he actually followed through with it in the subsequent day.-
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In post 145, Anatole Kuragin wrote:Are you townreading GreyICE for being an opportunistic liar or for being a hypocrite?
I think GreyICE is over-zealously pushing a misunderstanding based on a couple behaviors I'm seeing. He asked you twice prior to the "calling out" post what your experience with neighbors was (post 73 and post 81). To me, this seems indicative of someone who thinks he's caught you in a contradiction and wants to make sure you're actually making the argument he thinks you're making. I can't think of any scum motivation GreyICE would have in allowing you to correct yourself. The "gotcha'!" post itself (post 106) reads as genuine as well; the large, bolded font, the short sentence structure, and the link to the actual game in question all imply confidence to me that I don't think would be seen in scum, especially given that anyone can follow the link and judge the game for themselves.
While his efforts here are misguided, I think GreyICE actually believes what he's saying.-
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In post 147, Doogal121 wrote:So, TTH, you picked Wake instead of anybody else, because you were lurking games that he was in prior to joining? Of all the players in this game, is he the only one you directly observed?
My brother introduced me to this site after I played a game of mafia in RL; he's an older user (Antihero). The first thing I did here was go through and selectively read or skim (mostly skim) some ofhisold games to get at least a little bit of an idea about how forum mafia was played. The ones of Wake's I linked were two of them. The only other player I directly observed was GreyICE. I skimmed a Star Wars theme game and another large game, Knight Errant.-
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In post 267, Wake1 wrote:Now it looks like BBT's letting it go, along with TTH. That's how I see it, anyways.
You see it inaccurately.-
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In post 276, Wake1 wrote:In post 269, TellTaleHeart wrote:Wake's theory quickly becomes untenable when you think about the payoff (or notable lack thereof) of the plan he's talking about.
Unless you, as Scum, want to keep up the facade of being Neighbors, which makes you look like unconfirmed PRs instead of Scum.
1) Is your hidden thread a QuickTopic or a Private Thread?
2) Are there any other posts in there? If yes or no, why? Surely if you're Neighbors there should have been at least one more post made.
The facade would quickly crumble if either of us flipped and wasn't revealed to be a neighbor. It seems like that would be a very suboptimal strategy.
1) It's a private thread.
2) Yes, the moderator himself posted in there.-
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In post 294, Csareo wrote:Okay, let's get back on track.
Wake88 appears to be right, there is little chance that a "pre game" chat, would also allow the ability to post from it (Isn't that mod kill worthy?).
Why come out as neighbors right away?
Isn't that something scum would do to protect each other?
I thought this was a normal game?
Doctor Pepper's response made it ever worst. I was thinking about voting BBT, but he's kind of high on the VC, so I'm leaving it on TTT for now.
We've talked about all these things, Csareo.
In order:
- How would Wake know and how does it appear he's right? Also, the mod specifically addressed the legality of quoting the private thread here.
- We've talked about this extensively.
- I talked about this and no.
- According to the wiki page, the "neighbor" modifier is explicitlynormal.
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TellTaleHeart Mafia Scum
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In post 319, Wake1 wrote:What did DP say in your PT?
DoctorPepper, may I quote your post in the PT in this game thread?-
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In post 403, Csareo wrote:It strongly indicates (but not for certain) that the other player is of the opposite allignment. Something I became suspicious of, after they voted each other in the beginning.
We will also discover a lot about how this neighborhood works, something TTH ran from answering when asked.
I thought your theory was that we were both scum and fabricating the neighborhood conversation and that Anatole was trying to run interference to cover up the ruse. Now it's that we're actually a different alignment? Why is the story now changing?
Also, I'm not sure what questions about the neighborhood are outstanding. What are they?-
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In post 451, massive wrote:I am not a vote-mover. You can read some of my other games, I'm sure, and come away with the same conclusion. I'm also not big on sharing my thoughts, and I'm horrible at teamwork, but those (I THINK) is an artifact from being an older player with a long time away from the site, and changes to the overall way the game is played here. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around it.
That's not really helping me read you, massive.
Anything else?-
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In post 477, Boonskiies wrote:I'm town reading Csareo and Wake.
You're townreading Csareo?
My curiosity is piqued. Why?-
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In post 540, massive wrote:You just have to think of us as tall, handsome strangers that you meet by happenstance. What questions would you ask us then? Rufflig, do you like pina coladas? Long walks on the beach?
It would seem then that you don't have any problems developing your thoughts on the other players. Care to tell us what you think about the major candidates now? Boon, BBT, Csareo?
Your flirting is pretty smooth, but needs a bit more subtlety.
Anyway...
Everything Ruffling is sayingsoundsgood, but I lack faith that Csareo or Boonskiies are actually scum (which is really the meat and potatoes of Ruffling's recent activity). In particular, I think the Boonskiies read seems kind of lacking because I currently have a town read on Boon.
Again, I don't really know what to ask for. I could just do the brute force method of demanding a reads list, but even if I see one of those I don't really know what I'm looking at since my reads list is a quagmire of hellacious indecision itself.-
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I have several issues with Green Crayon's opening post 600.
Spoiler:
For something that was the centerpiece of the debate for quite some time, Green Crayon's doesn't have much to say about his reads on either of us. Why would he prefer to lynch me? Is it because I'm scummy? Because he thinks BBT is town? We don't know and Green Crayons doesn't say. It leaves quite a bit to the imagination.
Speaking of leaving things to the imagination:
Spoiler:
I read these three paragraphs and I learned absolutely nothing. Does he really think that Wake is town? Why is that? What gives him reservations? Or are these "reservations" made up in order to appear town? Whatexactlyabout GreyICE's "excessive hostility" is alignment indicative and what is the verdict on GreyICE?
Who knows?!
The highlight of the post, the Csareo case, is also pretty lacking.
Spoiler:
When you think about the case and strip it to its core, it consists of: buddying Wake and "lining up lynches" of the neighbors.
Csareo is hardly the only one guilty of advocating a lynch sequence. Off the top of my head, I recall BBT, Wake, and Anatole advocating a sequence lynch at some point ("if one of them flips town, lynch the other one" or something to that effect).
You really think Csareo is scum for buddying Wake? Why?-
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In post 658, Omph wrote:I'm one of those cool cat replacements who just goes with the flow, man.
Far out, man!
So duuuuude, what's your deal with Green Crayons, man? You think he's trippin'?-
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In post 702, Wake1 wrote:I don't feel like TTH has really engaged with me at all.
Don't put that on me.
The only thing you've bothered to do with me is put on a tin-foil hat and talk about this flight of fancy where BBT and I copied from the scum PT.-
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In post 687, The Rufflig wrote:@TTH: It seems that you're not sure that BBT is scum and you don't appear to really find anyone else suspicious. Is that correct?
Well, I don't know. I'm trying to make myself happy with a BBT townread, but I can't for a few reasons: 1) the looming specter of neighbor meta, 2) there's something rotten in the Csareo push.-
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*sigh*
The most frustrating thing is, I think the core of the Csareo wagon is that:
1) Csareo's cases and reasoning don't make much logical sense (this was extensively covered by Ruffling, most recently in post 690)
2) Csareo hasn't made much of an effort to build up much goodwill to anyone else with the exception of possibly Wake, but even that's debatable
But when you think about Csareo's activity as a whole, it's very possible (and in my opinion, prettylikely) that he's town who doesn't necessarily think things through before posting them and, as a result, has public image troubles.-
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In post 723, Csareo wrote:You did it again. Believe me, this is a real life trip.
If you are accused of doing something, someone telling the truth would reply in the third tense "...and I copying from a scum PT"
You stated it using "the", which signifies that the person being questioned is confirming its existence, and regarding the context in which you said it, I am awfully suspicious you may be in it as well.
The neighborhood is a PT so, unless the mod wanted to change it up for no reason in the middle of setting up the game, I'm betting scum have a PT as well.-
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In my mind, I keep going back to the group of (TheRuffling, massive, and Green Crayons).
I can tell from their posting styles that they're intelligent and articulate. I'm also inferring that they have at least a fair bit of experience. Something about their Csareo push just seems lacking in that I feel like the fundamental question of "What about all this leads us to conclude Csareo is scum?" remains largely unanswered.
I guess my hangup boils down to: IfI(the remedial mafia player here) don't really see the Csareo case, how is it that all these power players are seeminglyso soldon it? It makes me wonder.
And nothing any of these players are saying is unreasonable or illogical. Everything Ruffing, massive, and Green Crayons are saying aretechnicallytrue. It just doesn't add up to Csareo being scum.
What I'm left with is my standing theory, which is that there's some kind of agenda behind the Csareo wagon.-
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In post 733, Csareo wrote:TTH, where do you live (country, state)? Weird but important question.
Time zone purposes?
Eastern United States-
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In post 749, Green Crayons wrote:Whenever there is a player who has the personality as Csareo, it is entirely possible that his personality vomits actions that are really just anti-town, rather than scummy (because he is town and not scum).
That's why I was digging into the subject with Flubber.
My problem is that I have been burned both ways. I've lynched people who were acting suspicious because that was their playstyle, but who were town. I've also refused to lynch people who were acting suspicious because that was their playstyle, but who were scum. So that gives me pause to credit a "playstyle" defense, as it can be used pretty well by scum, but I'm still weighing what Flubber had to say. Plus, I don't think I'm entirely clueless about bad playstyles, and do my best to look through playstyles that are more foreign to me to determine whether I really think there's something scummy there at the core.
What you were talking about with Flubber was meta. I'm not even atthatlevel. You and everyone else on the Csareo wagon have this logic chain that I just can't follow to the end.
Csareo makes wrong cases -- ???????? -- Therefore Csareo is scum.
What's in the ??????? that I'm missing that everyone else seems to be seeing? I don't get it. What's worse is that I feel like this issue is being talkedaroundinstead of addressed directly and this makes me feel like there's chicanery at work.
I suppose I can see how "buddying" Wakemighthave scum motivation but even if you grant that hewasbuddying Wake, that still feels very circumstantial because it's natural to want to kind of cling to someone that agrees with you.-
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In post 760, Flubbernugget wrote:BBT does have a borderline trust-tell level of voting like that as scum though.
I'm surprised to hear this from you, Flubber, considering the Chosen game we just finished.-
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Ruffling, massive, GreenCrayons:
What would most help me read you all right now is a statement to the effect of "Csareo is working toward a scum win condition in (such a way)." Assume nothing. Explain it to me like you would to explain it to a toddler, because that's the level I'm feeling at about now.
I hate to ask for spoon feeding but I'm getting nowhere by myself so that's what has to be done. Especially since everyone else seems to content themselves with going on about phantom scumslips and some fake-neighborhood canard.-
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In post 768, Wake1 wrote:I may tentatively vote for Csareo. He, Flubber, AK, and now Boonskiies all are making me wonder. Doogal and massive need to engage more.
This probably means that the players not really pinging on my radar are actually Scum. Rufflig, TTH, and someone else?
I'm not going to sugar coat it, Wake. I'm pretty annoyed with you right now.
You say that I haven't engaged you, but you're making it very clear that you have no intention of meeting me halfway. I'm practicallybeggingpeople for explanations for the Csareo votes and you refuse to talk to me about it.
Why do you think Flubbernugget is scum? He's one of my strongest townreads.
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Green Crayons:
Spoiler:
Alright, I understand that scum have to concoct bogus cases on townies to advance their win conditions. But I've seen cases where townies are stuck in confirmation bias. The very things you seem to think are scummy are reasons whyIthink this is the case for Csareo. How is "vilifying people who disagree" part of a scum response? To me, this kind of response you're describing seems to fit confirmation bias to a "T" (implying that the opinions are genuine).
Number (2) requires more scrutiny. You think Csareo is feigning incompetence or stubbornness? That seems like an accusation that needs substantiation in the form of previous experience / other completed games.-
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In post 771, Csareo wrote:Do any of you know what an actual scum tell is?
I can't speak for everyone else in the game, but I certainly don't. Actually, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that there isn't such a thing.-
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In post 781, Wake1 wrote:There's a difference.
You're really going to stand here and tell me thatgiven the context, you'renotcalling me out on something in post 768?This is clearly not true. Even without context.How is "not pinged on my radar" supposed to be taken?!
Is anyone else seeing this? Am I insane?
In post 783, Wake1 wrote:I'm unsure how your defensive should be interpreted.
I am just beyond words.
You're just as bad as Csareo and his imaginary "scumslips".-
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OK, I've gathered my thoughts.
Wake:
One reason I'm so frustrated with this game is that I feel so absurdly out of the loop on the Csareo wagon. Another is that it feels like there's a few players (most notably you and Csareo) that'scompletely missing the forest for the trees.
Yes, it's true you didn't explicitly say I didn't engage you in post 768, but youdidsay it in post 702 and I took your "not ping the radar" comment as just a continuation of that train of logic.-
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@Green Crayons:
I still think BBT is likely scum. I had doubts a while ago and tried to make myself happy with a townread on him, but failed for a few reasons. There'sstillthe neighbor meta and I absolutely hate the Csareo vote. The whole "reactive is my meta" isn't doing much for me either since that was his go-to line when I called him out on it in Chosen mafia.
The only thing that makes me hesitate is that I don't know if he actually thought he was chasing a scumslip with his game-opening post. I guess that's my fault since I claimed the neighborhood thing. *sigh*
In post 1067, Boonskiies wrote:And this is exactly why the idea of lynching Flubber was just a policy lynch. ^
Why?! I agreed with pretty much every word of that post.
Spoiler:
Other people I would vote for are massive and Anatole.-
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TellTaleHeart Mafia Scum
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@Anatole:
It's less of a "I find (such and such)individualposts scummy" and more of "I find the pattern your activity makes scummy."
So far this game, you very much like to stick to facts and point out obviously bad arguments (criticizing BBT's "scum slip" argument comes to mind). This isn't scummy in and of itself, but then I feel like with the people youdopush, your analysis is on a very superficial level. Take GreyICE.
I went and took a look at GreyICE's previous games to see if he actually does tend to flake out as scum and the one I found was this one Sleepy Hollow. He seemed plenty active in that game as scum. I also think he could have recovered from the gaffe since, at least as far as I recall, plenty of people (myself included) were ready to forgive him for it.-
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TellTaleHeart Mafia Scum
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I don't care for Jagged Appliance's reads list. Green Crayon's, BBT's, and Anatole's positions on the town list are rather undeserved and there's only one scum read with a rather large group of nulls. It doesn't help that I'm townreading his scum read.
In post 1112, Doogal121 wrote:Looking at the voters, the people on the BBT wagon are the people I am town reading, where as the Csareo wagon are either null to scum for me.
I feel the same way.-
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In post 1117, Green Crayons wrote:In post 1087, Green Crayons wrote:@TTH:
1) Was BBT scum or town in Chosen mafia?
2) What happened to your Ruffling suspicions? I came away from your ISO last night wondering why you hadn't voted him all game.
1) BBT was scum. Link to the game if you actually want to read it.
2) The way Ruffling's been pushing Csareo's probably been the most town out of the wagon. I particularly liked how he responds to my frustration regarding the Csareo wagon. He didn't get fussy about it, refused to spoon feed, and told me to go through his ISO to decide for myself, which I think is far more likely to come from town than scum.-
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TellTaleHeart Mafia Scum
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In post 1210, Green Crayons wrote:@TTH:I'm shocked,shockedto learn that you don't like my posting once I basically state that you're in my Top 3 scum suspects.
I am petty.
But not that petty.
There's a difference between being confident in a townread andknowingsomeone is going to flip town. I think you venture into the latter category for a couple reasons. The townread on BBT isn't that well-founded in the first place and your witch-hunting from the BBT wagon is bad at that. How did Ruffling and Doogal get their positions on your scum list?
In post 1206, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:I'm also pretty sure you think I'm town but won't back down due to neighbour meta.
But you don't have to worry about neighbour meta. Because I'm town.
Say what you want, but scumhunting (especially when I do it) is unreliable. No amount of wishes and promises is going to make it go away.-
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In post 1219, Csareo wrote:In post 1217, TellTaleHeart wrote:No. In fact, I might unvote in a second.
Don't. Please fucking don't.
I'm sure you can acknowledge that BBT's flip is indicative to Greencrayon's allegiance.
A push on him wouldn't work anyways, and I wouldn't support one even so.
What's your read on massive?-
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TellTaleHeart Mafia Scum
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In post 1370, FakeGod wrote:Ok...
TTH, can you confirm those alleged posts from BBT are from the neighborhood you two share?
Please give a straight answer.
Yes, I can confirm this.