Mini Normal 1609: The Case Of Doctor Pepper (Game Over)

[Doogal121]

@jagged: Your slot was scummy before you came in (not your fault) however, there wasn’t much pushing and questioning and such after you came in. All your time spent on the fence is making you look like opportunistic scum.

@GC: Every claim helps the scum, no? So, with 2 days to deadline and 5 people who have already claimed (and one you are more than happy to see hang, Csareo/Titus), you start a new wagon. What are you going to do if he gets to L-1 with 12 hours to the deadline and he claims cop? Or, knowing this game, 1 shot BP/Vig/Doc. Or VT? The town move to make is to go back, make your case on Csareo again and push like hell.

[massive]

You people are monsters. 30 pages over the weekend? I'm starting. Will try and post it in chunks.

[Doogal121]

Flubber, Boon and Doogal have been on 3 separate wagons together so far, GreyIce, myself and now JA. Their voting has been very similar in this game, I would bet there is at least one scum in those three, possibly two.

Technically, that's 2 wagons, since Greyice and JA are the same person. How about we get a flip on JA and see how scummy myself, flubber and boon are? You up for that BBT?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Flubber, Boon and Doogal have been on 3 separate wagons together so far, GreyIce, myself and now JA. Their voting has been very similar in this game, I would bet there is at least one scum in those three, possibly two.

Technically, that's 2 wagons, since Greyice and JA are the same person. How about we get a flip on JA and see how scummy myself, flubber and boon are? You up for that BBT?

OK, my bad.

Two wagons on three separate occasions. Pretty much the only time you're not all voting together is when any of you have unvoted.

I think I would be much happier to lynch scum. How does that sound to you?

[Doogal121]

Flubber, Boon and Doogal have been on 3 separate wagons together so far, GreyIce, myself and now JA. Their voting has been very similar in this game, I would bet there is at least one scum in those three, possibly two.

Technically, that's 2 wagons, since Greyice and JA are the same person. How about we get a flip on JA and see how scummy myself, flubber and boon are? You up for that BBT?

OK, my bad.

Two wagons on three separate occasions. Pretty much the only time you're not all voting together is when any of you have unvoted.

I think I would be much happier to lynch scum. How does that sound to you?

Sounds great. Tell me why pointy toaster isn't scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Back end of wagon is scummy.

[Doogal121]

Back end of wagon is scummy.

Tell my why sharp microwave isn't scummy.

[TellTaleHeart]

Back end of wagon is scummy.

Tell my why sharp microwave isn't scummy.

Because I thought GreyICE was town and Jagged Appliance's "fencesitting" might be misunderstood indecisiveness.

FakeGod, are you confident that Jagged Appliance will flip scum?

[Doogal121]

@TTH, I don't mean to sound rude but please don't answer for BBT, his answer on this will help us for day 2 when we are doing VCA and flip associations.

@BBT, you have just admitted that JA's flip will help your associated reads come day 2. And we have already established that a claim from AK will only help scum. So, why not put your vote where your mouth is and vote JA. Or tell me why you know he isn't scum, Since you implied that he isn't at 2428. Tell me why you think that.

[massive]

Sorry, this is going to backdate a lot of stuff, if I repeat something someone has already said, well, tough noogies.

1729:

Wake

: I think I've realized what your "problem" is. There's a distinction that needs to be made between what's "possible" and what's "probable." It doesn't behoove any of us to have you constantly espousing every possibility, every configuration in the game, because it creates a higher noise floor that we then have to sift through to get at the truth. Yes, it's technically possible for these things to happen. But it will help the rest of us if you can get some focus on the more likely scenarios.

1744:

BBT

: "Also, all this talk of meta is driving me crazy." One of the things I've been seeing in many new games is how much players rely on previous games to create reads. I'm not sure if it's a progression of skill or what, but it's no substitute for things actually IN the game.

1749 Csareo defending Boon! Get out. I would not have seen that coming. Sarcasm.

1756:

Boon

: "WHY THE [SMURF] WOULD I CLAIM TRACKER AS SCUM?!": It's not a horrible choice, as the results are easy to fake -- you just claim you investigated the nightkill. Much easier, in fact, than cop or some other PR, as it gives you a chance to create some smokescreen.

1773:

Boon

: "You [BBT] and massive are my strongest scum reads. massive might actually be about to surpass you in that regard.": Do you have something you'd like to point to specifically, or are you just going to throw my name around?

1795: WELL THAT ESCALATED QUICKLY

... aaaaaand by 1798 I realized I was betting myself on how many people would demand to see the contents of this new PT.

... aaaaaand by 1799 already seriously FakeGod? I don't know why but I expect better from you.

1809:

Csareo

: "BBT had a lot of time on his hands, let's not forget.": He's not really going to suggest that BBT is both a fake-neighbor and a fake-mason, is he?

HA HE DID HOLY CATS

OK ... I need a mental break, I didn't make it as far as I had hoped. I should have known by all the pages to expect something crazy.

------

Things to keep in mind as I go.

1724: How did FG's sorting of Boon's meta end up?
... as of 1800, seems to be working to keep Boon alive but makes no mention of reviewing the meta

[Doogal121]

@Massive: You haven't even gotten to the fun part yet. Srsly. I'm not screwing with you. It involves somebody claiming vengeful and suggesting a gambit. Wanna take a guess before you read further?

[Anatole Kuragin]

One weekend without posting and the whole game goes to shit once again.

[Anatole Kuragin]

@Anatole:

1) Reading your ISO, I came away with one, consistent theme: GreyICE is super suspicious for his single LAL vote against you. However, I found this to be an odd exchange:

Are you townreading GreyICE for being an opportunistic liar or for being a hypocrite?

I think GreyICE is over-zealously pushing a misunderstanding based on a couple behaviors I'm seeing. He asked you twice prior to the "calling out" post what your experience with neighbors was (post 73 and post 81).

To me, this seems indicative of someone who thinks he's caught you in a contradiction and wants to make sure you're actually making the argument he thinks you're making. I can't think of any scum motivation GreyICE would have in allowing you to correct yourself. The "gotcha'!" post itself (post 106) reads as genuine as well; the large, bolded font, the short sentence structure, and the link to the actual game in question all imply confidence to me that I don't think would be seen in scum, especially given that anyone can follow the link and judge the game for themselves.

While his efforts here are misguided, I think GreyICE actually believes what he's saying.

I'm inclined to agree, which makes it even more annoying.

for the record - I wasn't trying to avoid answering his question, I just couldn't remember games in particular without breaking any site rules about referring to ongoing games (which is the main reason why I won't discuss any others, unless greyice digs another game up that had neighbors).

Why did you make a full 180 retreat from this position?

I'll be completely honest, part of my reaction to GreyICE was a pretty childish pride and I wanted him to be embarrased for such an obvious fuck-up trying to make a case towards me. I wanted the attention to stay on him as long as he was in the game until he came back in, apologized, and looked like an idiot. Jagged Alliance is scummy for different reasons, basically the same stuff you would probably accuse me of with the addition of opportunistic voting.

I can't tell if you're saying that my 180 retreat was me townreading or scumreading him. Can you elaborate on what exactly you find suspicious?

2) It took until Post 1100 for you to suggest that you found someone

other

than GreyICE suspicious. Why so long? (You've mentioned several times that you form townreads before scumreads, so am I to presume that it takes you over a 1000 posts to figure out more than one suspicious player?)

Yeah I honestly don't do shit day 1 in almost 100% of my games (sometimes I'll see something early and push hard).

3) Was Post 1107, where you simply ask Rufflig what he thinks about BBT, in response to his comment that he's curious about what you think about BBT, the only push on your Rufflig suspicions? I didn't see anything else. Why such a sparse push? What did it tell you about Rufflig?

That wasn't really a push. Flubber and Rufflig making vague implications of a potential case seemed like a lazy FoS and I was trying to figure out why so I flipped it over on Rufflig a little bit. Didn't learn anything probably.

4) You state that you think Rufflig was suspicious for "asking for pressure or implying there is something I'm not being upfront about despite me answering any question given," and then suggested that Rufflig and Flubber

both

acted in this manner. So, then, why didn't you mention being willing to vote Flubber in Post 1100?

This is a fair question. I don't think either are worth voting now, for what it's worth.

I don't see the scum case here.

[Doogal121]

So, here's where I'm at right now;

Town

AK
Rufflig
Massive
Wake
---------
TTH
Flubber
Csareo

Null

GreyICE
Doogal121
Rambler

Scum

scrambles
Boonskiies

One of my null reads is prob scum as well.

Tell me how AK went from your top town read to scum.

Associative reads are bad with no flips. Just saying.

Great, lets lynch serrated dishwasher and get some associative reads.

OK, well I don't know what the fuck to do.

I can jump on a JA wagon if that's what we need.

PEdit - No, I don't know what you mean FG

So, you are OK with hanging JA on Saturday

VOTE: Jagged Appliance

And you make the vote. WHY DID YOU GET OFF THIS WAGON?

[Doogal121]

@BBT: WHY WERE YOU WILLING TO BRING JA to L-1 AND THEN HOP OFF? 2 Days ago you were cool with a JA lynch, why aren't you now?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Town is starting to look really powerful, I'm guessing at least one PR claimed is fake.

[Green Crayons]

The two outted PRs can be scum-aligned, so even if someone is lying, it isn't necessarily about their power, just their alignment.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Yeah but that's not really the point.

[Green Crayons]

I think it's a distinction worth mentioning.

[Green Crayons]

I'll be completely honest, part of my reaction to GreyICE was a pretty childish pride and I wanted him to be embarrased for such an obvious fuck-up trying to make a case towards me. I wanted the attention to stay on him as long as he was in the game until he came back in, apologized, and looked like an idiot. Jagged Alliance is scummy for different reasons, basically the same stuff you would probably accuse me of with the addition of opportunistic voting.

I can't tell if you're saying that my 180 retreat was me townreading or scumreading him. Can you elaborate on what exactly you find suspicious?

You first townread GreyICE in the quoted exchange with TTH, but then you spent the rest of the game saying that he was scum for the very same actions. That's suspicious in and of itself because you gave no reason why you distanced your earlier townread.

It's also suspicious because you then used your 180 flip to push ONLY "GreyICE is scum" for 1000 posts.

It's also suspicious because when I asked how GreyICE's actions were "scum," rather than simply "anti-town," you embraced your full 180 from your exchange with TTH -- where you were "inclined to agree" that GreyICE's actions were those of town, in light of the town-justifications TTH gave for GreyICE's actions -- and said that you couldn't conceive why town would have acted the way GreyICE acted (Post 1099). But your interaction with TTH makes clear that you

could

imagine why town would have acted in the way GreyICE did. In fact, it wasn't just a possibility, it was a scenario you were "inclined to agree" with. In light of you disowning your TTH interaction, Post 1099 looks like a lie to justify your GreyICE drumbeat.

I don't see the scum case here.[/quote
]
These were just questions. I think you're lynch worthy for the reasons set forth in Post 2354.

[Anatole Kuragin]

So your case adds up to me making a lot of posts you think are useless, and me keeping a vote on GreyICE for most of the day?

[Green Crayons]

And your only suspicion voiced for 1000+ posts being about one post, made on page 5, that you had already admitted was likely to be a town mistake.

[Anatole Kuragin]

so?

[Green Crayons]

So it looks like scum play.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I don't have any idea how you can construe that as more scummy than the wagons on Csareo and BBT that were being pushed in those 1000+ posts.