House of the Dragon - Game Over!

[Lukewarm]

The vt has arrived

Also

VLA today and tomorrow

[Lukewarm]

For the record, the first three are the only three I would definitively trust to be competent in the King position.

I am flattered to make your list, but I do not want the king position.

Outside forces means I likely won't be able to give quite as much focus to this game as I normally would for the beginning of this game, and being king would make me feel kinda shitty about that.

Dann would probably be my first choice in a vacuum, lld would be pretty close (mainly losing out because I think she would be more dangerous scum king, not because she would be less beneficial as a town king).

Datisi would be a funny choice, based on how much stressed tinfoil posting he did in Guardians when he was made an IC

Spoiler: How i picture Datisi ever other game day as king

Like, I think he would do a good job at it. But it would also be funny to watch

Enchant would be the ultimate meme choice

[Lukewarm]

Yeah yeah,I read the post, and I can't find the seven days thing

Did someone ask this is the scum pt and you forgot?

I want to say that this is town, because what scum is going to fake this argument

[Lukewarm]

Yeah yeah,I read the post, and I can't find the seven days thing

Did someone ask this is the scum pt and you forgot?

I want to say that this is town, because what scum is going to fake this argument

Seems more like they saw information that they did not know previously, went back to the OP to see if they missed it, did a ctrl+f for "7" and got foiled by pooky spelling it out lol

[Lukewarm]

Spoiler: How i picture Datisi ever other game day as king

Spoiler: live footage of me every other day if i were made king

lukewarm is right, btw. i do a lot of stressed tinfoil posting when i'm town in an important position. and i don't think i'm capable of replicating that stressed tinfoil posting as scum. so i would also be a very easy read if i were made king. wink wink nudge nudge

Wait. Do you want the king position?

[Lukewarm]

kind of?

do you think that's odd?

Maybe. I remembered you being very vocally against going to the IC minigame in guardians, because you did not want to be made into the IC.

I just looked back at the game, and I did see lines along those lines with

i want to avoid the gate at all costs

But looking back at it directly, I saw that there was more context of having a bad history of being the deciding vote in Elo, outside of just "I don't want to be in the hot seat"

So, feeling less like my original thought was actually valid.

[Lukewarm]

I fully read up, but did not feel like I retained much other then thinking this feels like town andante.

[Lukewarm]

HURT: Lukewarm

Yeah yeah,I read the post, and I can't find the seven days thing

Did someone ask this is the scum pt and you forgot?

I want to say that this is town, because what scum is going to fake this argument

I don't think this is legit

There are certain arguments that don't make a lot of sense to me to come from scum. Going hard into accusing someone of having scum slipped setup information from the scum chat is one of them.

Scum!Junko would know that Andante is town, and therefore their information is not a scumslip, and therefore that information is *somewhere* that a VT had access to it, and therefore immediately falls apart the moment anyone looks at it. I would not expect scum Junko to even think to fake call it a scum slip, and even if it crossed their mind, I would expect them to dismiss it as wasted effort given the above.

So, yeah. My conclusion is that scum is not going to fake this argument

Alternatively, a town!junko, seeing someone say information that they did not know, and did not see in the OP, could reasonably think that it was a TMI slip of information that the scum team had but the town did not.

[Lukewarm]

Flavor

The Lord of Dragonstone is the ruler of the stronghold of Dragonstone upon the island of Dragonstone in Blackwater Bay. The ruler commands the loyalty of several vassal houses established on the islands of Blackwater Bay.

Dragonstone is the ancestral seat of House Targaryen. It was the westernmost outpost of the Valyrian Freehold. Prior to Robert's Rebellion, the island served as the seat of the heir apparent, known as the "Prince of Dragonstone". The two titles were often, though not always, synonymous. The first Prince of Dragonstone was Aenys I Targaryen, son of Aegon I, while the last was Rhaegar Targaryen.

After the War of Conquest, the ruler of the island and the castle of Dragonstone happened to be the heir prince of the Iron Throne, titled as Prince of Dragonstone, until the fall of House Targaryen.

The Prince of Dragonstone

The Prince or Princess of Dragonstone is the title held by the Chosen Heir to the King or Queen.

They hold the following abilities:

Heir to the Iron Throne

Ascends to the Iron Throne upon death of the Ruling Monarch.

Member of the Small Council

Has access to Small Council Meetings.

Coronation Vote - Day One

With twenty one players alive - it requires eleven votes to make a decision. Plurality rules will apply at the deadline.

Enchant [3]:

Enchant, Bellaphant, Charloux

Dannflor [2]:

PenguinPower, GuiltyLion,

Lady Lambdadelta [2]:

mastina, Junkochan

GuiltyLion [1]:

Dannflor

Rhaenyra [1]:

Firebringer

mastina [1]:

Rhaenyra

Firebringer [1]:

Datisi

Andante [1]:

Unowen

Datisi [1]:

VP Baltar

not voting [8]:

Titus, Andresvmb, Lukewarm, Andante, Thestatusquo, Dwlee99, Lady Lambdadelta, ProfessorDrapion

Deadline:

(expired on 2022-11-19 23:48:35)

mod note

datisi - vla wed/thurs
lukewarm - vla today and monday
I do everything by hand so please pm me if I miss something

Read: "Prince of Dragonstone" and their abilities. They're a member of the small council the King selects.

Oh shit... I have not been reading anything above the vote count, assuming it was all flavor. I see now that the PRs are going there

[Lukewarm]

I like Rhae, UNOwen, Luke and Junko for town, currently.

I feel odd making your short list here, given the fact that I have not been doing much.

[Lukewarm]

skipping over asking me the intermediary step of "why do you think X is town?"

Funny running into this. I typed out "so why are you town reading me?" in my last post, but then remembered that you in general have a stance of being willing to explain scum reads but being adverse to explaining town reads, and kind of thought it was a futile question for me to ask.

[Lukewarm]

The series of LLD posts I have read have actually had the effect of me reconsidering giving Andante the kingship.

I had originally written her off because of her impulsiveness, but LLD's points have swayed me somewhat that landing on town is actually more important then that person being the best possible king, and Andante is kind of the only person I am very confident is town atm.

[Lukewarm]

skipping over asking me the intermediary step of "why do you think X is town?"

Funny running into this. I typed out "so why are you town reading me?" in my last post, but then remembered that you in general have a stance of being willing to explain scum reads but being adverse to explaining town reads, and kind of thought it was a futile question for me to ask.

Ah, it happened anyways lmao

I'll note you still haven't bothered to read UNOwen yourself, interestingly.

Tell you what, here's the deal.

You go back and read those two players, and tell me what your reads on them are and why, and I'll explain to you why I have a townread on them.

Unless you think I pulled names out of a hat, in which case... feel free to think that?

Like you either want my reasonings to be convinced, or to use against me. If it's the later, I don't care to waste my breath, sorry. You can just push me on not answering your questions instead.

If it's the former... go read them and develop your opinions and then we'll see.

[Lukewarm]

this is frustrating

I'm not asking you to "use them against you"

I am asking you because I think it'll probably be a more effective method of sorting you than arguing with you about the same point over and over again

Just for perspective "I don't explain my town reads because it helps the scum team" is a standard town!LLD thought, that I have seen from her in more then one game.

I was more shocked seeing her ask you why you didn't ask her, then I am seeing her refuse to answer.

I do agree that that it can be frustrating to deal with.

[Lukewarm]

Do you think small council positions are reselected by each new king, or mostly retained until death?

wait... *re-reading 190* I read that as the council is permanent..(?)

but it lead me to another question, so the council members are the only ones that can be king right? so there's a limited amount of times a new king can be selected right?

also

it's not clear if it's possible to have more than 1 heir (in the case that the first one dies)

I assume that when a Prince ascends, they name a new prince, or there is a line of succession for small council and they appoint a new 7th member.

That much I think is... reasonable? But I think I agree that small council positions are probably for life.

So I think you need to be a lot more worried about being temp pocketed than you normally should be, because you're not really goign to be given a good chance to re-evaluate I suspect. I think once we make our chocies, it'll be in the hands of the king and small council, not us.

Your math from earlier stops if the throne goes King -> Prince -> We no longer have a king for the game, which I think is also a perfectly valid reading of the Prince Role. (all small council positions are named by the first king, including the prince)

Someone should ask Pooky how the succession works lol

[Lukewarm]

I get town vibes from Andres's responses to LLD. I am also getting town vibes from LLD's play as well, although, not as strongly. With a splash of knowing she is good at scum.

So atm, I am at [ Andante, Junko, Andres, LLD ] town, in that order.

Thats alll the time you guys get from me today.

[Lukewarm]

I'd probably townbin andante and andres at this point. Dann and datisi are maybe in town lean territory for me. Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.

Um... if these are your reads, why are you voting for dwlee?

[Lukewarm]

I get town vibes from Andres's responses to LLD. I am also getting town vibes from LLD's play as well, although, not as strongly. With a splash of knowing she is good at scum.

So atm, I am at [ Andante, Junko, Andres, LLD ] town, in that order.

Thats alll the time you guys get from me today.

Take care of yourself and have a good day friend

<3

[Lukewarm]

I just typed out a really long message responding to Dann asking me to explain my LLD read, and then lost it.

I am sad.

[Lukewarm]

Lukewarm can you put words to your LLD read beyond town vibes

what about her play here do you think is unlikely to come from scum!her?

Lots of little things. (this time with out quotes and post links )

---

Her outing the math for "If we get a scum!king, and we do 1 normal miselimination, then we could potentially mechanically lose this game on day 2 even if we kill a scum king every single day that the kind does not have his execute power"

No one was thinking or talking about that, and if scum!lld thinks that that is a valid wincon for her team, I doubt she brings it up and goes that hard into detail shooting that wincon down.

(although to be clear, I am sure pooky must have put something in this set up to not make that the case. My theory is that we only ever get a max of 2 kings. I asked if the prince would get to name a new prince after he took the throne, and pooky said we don't know)

---

I also don't think that scum!lld would be interested in the popcorn plan for king selection at all, but can see town!lld finding the information that could generate valuable. (and I have seen her, as town, propose popcorn style plans for the purpose of information before)

---

The way she reused to explain her town reads to you.

The way that is very much how town!lld thinks about how sharing town read logic helps the scum team, to the point that I predicted response and so I did not ask, was then surprised (and a little suspicious actually) when I saw her say something that insinuated she would explain if asked, and then went back to her being squarely inside my expectation when I saw her actually refuse was actually a kind of funny experience while catching up earler.

Scum!LLD could easily fake a town case on almost any player. And doing so would likely result in most players being more likely to town read her, and definitely more likely to get other people to listen to her suggestion for king. Doing so would almost certainly help her with her #scumgoals right now, but she didn't because her paranoia about sharing town reads

(I also don't expect LLD to do this to trick me in particular, because this expectation that I have developed about her town play came in part from me spectating a game that she was in, and I have not played in a game with her since then)

---

This is kind of a spin off from my last point, because they are kind of similar, but this is the more broad version. I also felt like she was doing this thing where she was being not very diplomatic at all to the point that I don't know that there are many people who would read her back and forth with Andres (for example) and end up more inclined to give her a PR if they made it to the kingship

[Lukewarm]

Lukewarm needs to do more if he wants maintain position as master of ships

I have literally been on VLA since the start of the game, and I have more posts then 9 other players.

I think I have been doing okay lol

[Lukewarm]

Coup in the Castle

If 50% or more Kingsguard Members decide to overthrow the King - they may murder him at night and install his chosen successor onto the throne.

If all Kingsguard Members agree to overthrow the Monarchy - they may murder him and his successor. The Small Council will be role blocked from committing any actions on this night. New elections will be held on the following day.

I was wrong on how Pooky was stopping the insta loss train, but right that he was!

[Lukewarm]

ah, now that you mention it, another thing that bothered me about lukewarm is that he seemingly shaded me for the king stuff but didn't actually follow up on it

@baltar, no thoughts on my andres thoughts?

I did follow up on it.The follow up just didn't lead me to believing in my original thought anymore

After I asked you about it, i then went back and looked at your iso from the other game.

Realized there was more context then just the "I don't want to be ic" that I remembered (like the fact that you had a full game plan at the start of day outside you being ic'd, so it was not just "dont make me an ic" it was "i can win this ither thing better" and eventually decided you were not against goings to the gate anymore because you were not being town read. Like you *did* put yourself into that minigame once you thought it was better. And seeing that, I stopped thinking my original paranoia at the idea you wanted to be king was valid.

[Lukewarm]

Lion would you consider executing Rhae?

I'm certainly open to the idea but I'm not at a place with all my reads where I'd commit to that.

why are you pushing to execute her specifically? and also, do you think she would be particularly hard to get eliminated the usual way?

This response feels slimy

[Lukewarm]

also, i swear i never understood the "this person is being widely townread, must be town that mafia is afraid to challenge". like, why can't they be scum that mafia has no intentions of challenging?

Also slimy

[Lukewarm]

Lion would you consider executing Rhae?

I'm certainly open to the idea but I'm not at a place with all my reads where I'd commit to that.

why are you pushing to execute her specifically? and also, do you think she would be particularly hard to get eliminated the usual way?

This response feels slimy

why

Opening with "im certainly open to the idea"

That being there instead of... just asking why feels like GL is focused on appeasement.

[Lukewarm]

also, i swear i never understood the "this person is being widely townread, must be town that mafia is afraid to challenge". like, why can't they be scum that mafia has no intentions of challenging?

Weren't you just arguing andante town? Not sure why you're making this point.

Ayee

[Lukewarm]

also, i swear i never understood the "this person is being widely townread, must be town that mafia is afraid to challenge". like, why can't they be scum that mafia has no intentions of challenging?

Also slimy

why

Because it is abstracted away from your read on the person in question.

Just before this you were arguing about why Andante is town. If you think that Andnante is town, then your PoV should also the the same as the one that you are disagreeing with here.

But it does not feel like you are talking about andante. You are talking in abstraction. Which feels less likely to come from someone whose primary focus rn is sorting the playerlist.

[Lukewarm]

snip

how familiar are you with LLD's scum play

I don't disagree that generally antagonizing a bunch of people 1 on 1 is like... not intuitive for scum

but LLD specifically focuses on those 1 on 1 interactions positive or negative in order to build her relationships and ensure she's never in danger

that's my point of hestitation

I don't think her reactions to people not wanting her on the council are ingenuine. I hate being treated like that for simply having a reputation and I empathize with feeling stuck regardless of what you do in that position

but my worry is that I feel like she might be focusing more on her relationships in this game than actually pushing for what she wants

what do you think

I do not think that she is slam dunk always town all the time. But, gth, when I seen someone repeatedly playing exactly how I would expect them to play as town, while making steps that I feel like they could have easily skipped, with little expectation that they would be making those steps, as scum (like pointing out the danger math). I am naturally drifting towards thinking that she is town.

I also did not feel like her methodology even made me, someone who landed on this being more likely to be a town approach from her, more inclined to name her king

[Lukewarm]

I think town would be more likely to be critical of questionable methods even if they agree with the conclusions? whereas scum would just be happy someone was agreeing with their reads? I don't understand why that isn't more likely to be town trying to get high quality reads / sorting than mafia... weakening a position in the game they support?

The end result of that statement is to make people doubt Andante town reads, and it never acknowledges that. It doesn't have the "I think Andante is town anyways, but..." aspect in there, which I would expect from an uninformed view point that is entering into that conversation with a town read on Andante.

It does not engage with Andante's alignment, or even engage with your alignment for making such a post.

It is just... there.

[Lukewarm]

I also did not feel like her methodology even made me, someone who landed on this being more likely to be a town approach from her, more inclined to name her king

Where would you want LLD if you could decide?

Getting cop checked by the Hand of the King probably lol.

But actually, I have not really been able to put a lot of brain power towards the PRs. This game is getting about 20% of the brain power I normally bring to games atm.

Maybe the PR slot on the council that could do the least amount of damage if she were scum, but also lets her be in on the council meetings in case she is town (I would value her having imput in those conversations). And then likely also getting her cop checked, meaning she is both clear *and* a weak PR meaning the scum team would have to choose between killing her or a stronger PR. (or outed if scum, obvs)

[Lukewarm]

I think town would be more likely to be critical of questionable methods even if they agree with the conclusions? whereas scum would just be happy someone was agreeing with their reads? I don't understand why that isn't more likely to be town trying to get high quality reads / sorting than mafia... weakening a position in the game they support?

The end result of that statement is to make people doubt Andante town reads, and it never acknowledges that. It doesn't have the "I think Andante is town anyways, but..." aspect in there, which I would expect from an uninformed view point that is entering into that conversation with a town read on Andante.

It does not engage with Andante's alignment, or even engage with your alignment for making such a post.

It is just... there.

yeah this is utter bullshit

the idea that i have to repeat my townread of andante for the nth time in order to call out bad reasoning is nonsense

because literally less than 10 minutes earlier, i wrote 761 outlining difference between town and scum andante and why i think she's town this game; i had literally just got out of saying "i think andante is town" - and i'm trying to make people doubt town-andante by that one line? k

Oh. I don't think that your actual goal was to make people doubt Andante.

I am talking more about PoV's that would lead to the post being framed that way.

I think that the approach makes less sense coming from the perspective of of a town with a town read on Andante.

And more sense coming from scum who is just engaging to engage.

Given the lack of focus on the alignment of either the person who is being talked about or the alignment of the person who you are responding to, it was just empty engagement.

[Lukewarm]

Asking luke, but as a general reminder a cop check is very unreliable this game

If a scum hand of the king fakes results, they die the moment any of their faked results die.

So like, in this scenario

Scum!HotK fakes a guilty on town!LLD. They are doing a 1 for 1 trade. Bad plan

Scum!HotK fakes an inno on scum!LLD, they are making it so neither of those slots can end game, because town!cop and CopCleared!LLD are both slots that will be questioned why the scum team did not kill them before ELO.

So not super worried about the world where we are forcing a scum!HotK to choose between giving real or false results.

I kind of think HotK might be one of the worst slots of scum to end up in actually.

[Lukewarm]

I also did not feel like her methodology even made me, someone who landed on this being more likely to be a town approach from her, more inclined to name her king

Where would you want LLD if you could decide?

Getting cop checked by the Hand of the King probably lol.

But actually, I have not really been able to put a lot of brain power towards the PRs. This game is getting about 20% of the brain power I normally bring to games atm.

Maybe the PR slot on the council that could do the least amount of damage if she were scum, but also lets her be in on the council meetings in case she is town (I would value her having imput in those conversations). And then likely also getting her cop checked, meaning she is both clear *and* a weak PR meaning the scum team would have to choose between killing her or a stronger PR. (or outed if scum, obvs)

eyyy chill chill you tryin' to get me shot by the mafia bruv ahahah

in all seriousness i'm fine being checked by hand of the king

You know hand of the king can be scum right?

And what will they do, precisely, Junko?

They can either state my true alignment or trade one for one with me.

And if a scum is trusted enough to become hand of the king and wants to trade one for one with me? I'll accept.

Otherwise, they have to clear me, in a sense. Obviously we could both be scum and it could be a gambit but... how long will I live while cleared? With a cleared status the havoc I would wreck in this game... ahaha.

So.. yes, I've considered the outcome, and it doesn't much matter to me. I either get cleared or I get traded for. Both are fine outcomes, for me.

Yes. This.

[Lukewarm]

Decided to take stare at the playerlist and try to take stock, and this is vaguely where I landed

Spoiler:

4. Andresvmb
6. Andante
8. VPBaltar
17. Junkochan
18. Lady Lambdadelta

7. Thestatusquo
20. Bellaphant

2. Titus
3. PenguinPower
9. Dannflor
10. Unowen
11. GuiltyLion
14. Charloux
16. mastina
21. Enchant

1. Rhaenyra
12. Firebringer
13. Dwlee99

15. Datisi
19. ProfessorDrapion

Some thoughts:

VP Baltar is largely vibes feeling right, but I also like his advocacy for Andres king, who I also think is town. Also felt good to see him point out the same Datisi post that I did.

Bellaphant: her approach with me is very different then her approach with me was when she was scum. Not a strong thought, which is why she is a tier down, but I vaguely thought "huh, this is different"- but obviously, she could be doing something differerent on purpouse, but also, I have been low impact enough that I feel like a strange target.

Dann: I am conflicted here, because in our last game together, he repped in and it felt like I was reading my own thoughts typed out by him. He became my single strongest town read pretty rapidly because it felt like we were reading and thinking about the game in very similar ways, but this time I feel like we are not on the same page about literally anything. But also not really sure that that makes him scum basing it off of just the one game. But it does make me sad. (also, see Firebringer)

Dwlee: I feel like him jumping on me saying that Junko would not make that argument as scum, and even bringing it up much later again, while also not commenting on the like 4 other people who expressed a similar thought feels like he is not consistently applying reading metrics.

Firebringer: bad vibes from 416, which felt like it was designed more to frustrate LLD's attempts this game then actually engaging with what she said in her post. Like, she literally just floating an idea, and his resposne was

lets just play the game and not be dictating how everything goes down

Also bad vibes from 411 which feels like he knows he is talking to a Town!Dann.

Drapion: Feels wildly different then his town game in Lost, where he was like the most self assured wild west gunslinger ready to take down the dirty mafia with just the sheer force of his bluster.

[Lukewarm]

Dann: I am conflicted here, because in our last game together, he repped in and it felt like I was reading my own thoughts typed out by him. He became my single strongest town read pretty rapidly because it felt like we were reading and thinking about the game in very similar ways, but this time I feel like we are not on the same page about literally anything. But also not really sure that that makes him scum basing it off of just the one game. But it does make me sad. (also, see Firebringer)

can you elaborate on what has you conflicted? this is a bunch of words that don't really say anything at all about my alignment but the wording of "I am conflicted" makes it sound like you do have thoughts on my alignment

is there towny stuff that you're balancing against this sad feeling?

The main confliction is that I don't know that that is even a reasonable metric to sort you on.

Because, I don't like how out of step we are compared to that last game, and I want to them say that that is because that time we were the same alignment and this time we are not, but then I am not actually all that sure that that is a good way to sort you since being in perfect lock step is a one game experience we had together.

That really is the biggest thought I have had about you this whole time, and I don't know if it even makes sense to use to sort.

Only other thoughts have been not liking the way firebringer responded to you, and weakly thinking that scum!you does not gain much from picking a fight with the OMGUSer-in-chief herself Andante (but also, you don't seem to have played together so you might not know that, but also also, at some point a member of the scum team would have had to have talked to you about it, so maybe not).

[Lukewarm]

do you think positioning himself in that way is inherently scummy? I feel town!VPB would want to do that as well

Why advocate Andres to be king if you're going to try to undercut him before he's been crowned? Why not make the case for full democracy then elect the king once that has been agreed? Or why not advocate himself as king if he wants to be in a position of power? It feels underhand and treasonous to me.

As I read this, I get the feeling that you believe what you are saying here

But I think I fundamentally disagree that the idea should to "either name king, and let king do all of the PR naming without other people's input OR democracy all positions" so I am not surprised at all to see VP giving input on the roles, and dont view it as "undercutting".

[Lukewarm]

at some point a member of the scum team would have had to have talked to you about it, so maybe not

sorry to keep harping on you but this is the kinda stuff where it feels to me like you're finding reasons to justify your reads rather than arriving at them from a full thought out process

He is literally a slot in the null section of my reads that asked me to voice more of my thoughts on his slot. Not sure why you would were expecting, but those are my internal thoughts there.

I know you've said you're only giving 20% so far this game so give a bit more of that remaining 80% please

That is literally just all the spoons that I have atm.

[Lukewarm]

also the tinfoily part of my brain is telling me that if you were scum, *someone* in your scumteam would know andante and warn you that she's basically an omgus machine and also that she is just like that as town and so it's not worth the struggle in early game... but tinfoiling

actually I guess Datisi said this exact thing earlier

hmmmmm were you referencing this at all @Luke?

no, but I am pretty sure that is a fairly common conception of Andante?

[Lukewarm]

I think you misunderstand me, I'm questioning Luke's reasoning for why he thinks Dann is town on that basis there, because it feels kinda half-baked/shallow from Luke. I'm not trying to argue for town!Dann in that post, you've misread it if you think I am

Did you even look at where Dann was on my reads list? lol

Spoiler:

4. Andresvmb
6. Andante
8. VPBaltar
17. Junkochan
18. Lady Lambdadelta

7. Thestatusquo
20. Bellaphant

2. Titus
3. PenguinPower

9. Dannflor

10. Unowen
11. GuiltyLion
14. Charloux
16. mastina
21. Enchant

1. Rhaenyra
12. Firebringer
13. Dwlee99

15. Datisi
19. ProfessorDrapion

When he asked me more about my thoughts on him (almost certainly because he was the only person in my null section that I had enough thoughts about to have commented on despite his placement), and my response was :

~Here is a reason that I think you might be scum, but I don't know if it makes sense actually
~Here is a thought I had about you, but depends on a preflip of someone.
~Here is a really weak thought I had about you

Which, I am aware is not going to convince anyone of swaying him either direction [see me, myself, being unswayed one way or another]

[Lukewarm]

like you don't sit in scum chat and go "I'm gonna push andante!" and you don't spend pregame going "don't push andante"

like Andante this was exactly my point, and I thought it was kinda silly & suspect that Luke was saying that Dann being warned about Andante in the scum PT certainly

would

have happened

Like, sure. They never would have talked about it before post 204.

It was when I saw him bring the suspicion back up in 715 that I had that thought, because that would have given them time to have potentially discussed it after he made 204.

[Lukewarm]

I could go for andres of baltar for king I think.

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: VP Baltar

[Lukewarm]

I don't know why I bother. So go ahead! Mock me! Stomp my feelings into the ground! Go ahead, say how worthless I am over and over! Cause you clearly enjoy castigating me for having a different opinion!

From an outsider's pov, it seems to me like you are the one more focused on the fact that the two of you have differing opinions.

He made a comment about his thoughts on Mastina's posts (unrelated to you entirely) and you then interjected.

And you have interjected yourself every time someone else made a comment about not wanting a king mastina.

The way you have engaged with the discussion feels like you believe other people are not allowed to have the opinion that Mastina would not make a good king.

[Lukewarm]

with the overly explanatory LLD townread based on (imo) flimsy justification and lacking any visible doubt/paranoia, the extremely bad Datisi shade where he took Datisi wildly out of context, the busywork null read on Dann, it all just feels like pretend solving to me

This feels like you are also taking my posts out of context, and twisting them to call me scum.

the overly explanatory LLD townread based on (imo) flimsy justification and lacking any visible doubt/paranoia

Here was my read on LLD

I get town vibes from Andres's responses to LLD. I am also getting town vibes from LLD's play as well, although, not as strongly. With a splash of knowing she is good at scum.

So atm, I am at [ Andante, Junko, Andres, LLD ] town, in that order.

And then I was asked to explain those town vibes. And I did.

Lukewarm can you put words to your LLD read beyond town vibes

what about her play here do you think is unlikely to come from scum!her?

So you skipped past the post where I stated how strong my read was, and jumped to the post where I was directly answering "what part of this is giving you those town vibes" and are calling it scummy for it being "flimsy justification and lacking any visible doubt/paranoia."

---

And you did a similar thing with my comments on Dann when you said this

I'm questioning Luke's reasoning for why he thinks Dann is town on that basis there, because it feels kinda half-baked/shallow from Luke. I'm not trying to argue for town!Dann in that post, you've misread it if you think I am

Because, you skipped past the point where... I was not even making the arguement that Dann was town.

But since that has been explained, you shift the arguement instead to be

the busywork null read on Dann

Your original take was that it was too bad of a reason for me to call Dann town, but when i responded to tell you I was not calling him town, now the issue is that it is "busy work" for a null read... skipping past the fact that I was directly asked you explain it more.

can you elaborate on what has you conflicted?

----

As for Datisi

the extremely bad Datisi shade where he took Datisi wildly out of context

That simply did not happen. My entire point was about the exact context that it was said in.

But I am sure that this will be hit with a response that even with the context, you did not like the conclusion. But "looking for people who are talking about reads in the abstract instead of being focused on the particulars of this game" is just... something I look for. Whether other people think it is a valid reason or not.

I actually just used that same line of thinking to call scum!Titus scum in Datisi's cafe. Albeit on a different scale because of the context where Titus was doing it vs what I saw from Datisi.

[Lukewarm]

okay - quick read through

Agree that mastina should not be king
Firebringer probs scum – yw warmpuppy
Datisi probably scum
Tsq/gl/luke/dann town
Junko town?
Had a townread on andante but lost it by 920
No idea what to make of rhea
I’m gonna withhold comment on mastina assigning alignment to my v/la so I don’t lose it..she’s probably town though
Charloux probs scum

VOTE: gl

this seems good.

I do not want a GL king.

[Lukewarm]

i find it really dubious that that *one* line from me that luke considers empty engagement would actually shoot me down in the bottomest tier in his reads

My response to the one line was to think "oh, I did not like that"

It was the following interaction that I had with you that actually moved you to the bottom tier.

[Lukewarm]

okay - quick read through

Agree that mastina should not be king
Firebringer probs scum – yw warmpuppy
Datisi probably scum
Tsq/gl/luke/dann town
Junko town?
Had a townread on andante but lost it by 920
No idea what to make of rhea
I’m gonna withhold comment on mastina assigning alignment to my v/la so I don’t lose it..she’s probably town though
Charloux probs scum

VOTE: gl

ok - but i do
this seems good.

I do not want a GL king.

not sure why it blanked my text...

I said - "ok - but I do"

Well, you had me down as town, so I thought it worth a shot to tell you that I am scum scum reading him, and ask you to reconsider.

[Lukewarm]

yes - i'm aware that both of you are scum reading each other.

why do you think should baltar be king?

I'll walk you through my process:

I looked at the people that I thought were town

4. Andresvmb
6. Andante
8. VPBaltar
17. Junkochan
18. Lady Lambdadelta

And I don't really trust Andante or Junko to be a very good king (sorry) - I am a little scared to make LLD king. - That left Andres and Baltar.


I went and checked the vote count

Lady Lambdadelta [4]:

mastina, Charloux, Titus, Rhaenyra,
-

VP Baltar [1]:

Datisi

Andresvmb [1]:

VP Baltar

Reconsidered if I was willing to just relent for LLD, but decided against it.

I saw that Datisi was voting Baltar, and went and looked at when / why he did that.

ok so uhhh

andante town, dannflor firebringer and vp baltar feel town

VOTE: vp baltar anyone?

my usual way of reading vp baltar is "townread him if he does something that i don't think scum-him would do", HOWEVER i have realized that i can use a "townread him if he does not do something that i know scum-him would do" here

i'm realizing how much i actually rely on being able to push stuff with my votes and how it's throwing me off, which is annoying but oh well

this does not look like a scum nominating another scum, because it does not actually even try to look sheepable. Even his follow up in 381 is not made in a way that is particularly digestable by anyone other then Baltar himself and is buried as a single part to a much larger post responding to multiple things.

So, I figured it was limited to 3 worlds:

The bad one:
Town!Datisi nominating scum!Baltar. Which requires both my own read on Baltar and a town!Datisi's read on Baltar to be wrong here.

The good ones:
Town!Datisi nominating town!Baltar. Which great.

Scum!Datisi nominating town!Baltar, in an attempt to pocket him. Which if we *are* in this world, that is a town Baltar with a scum vote already on him that would be kind of *locked* on him once he became a viable wagon, because he would not want to look awkward leaving it after making the case that he did, the moment that Baltar started getting votes.

Making it an easier wagon to actually go through between him and Andres.

[Lukewarm]

Like here are all of his reasons for town!LLD, in his own words:

if scum!lld thinks [scum King running executions] is a valid wincon for her team, I doubt she brings it up and goes that hard into detail shooting that wincon down.

^why not? what if scum!LLD thinks town!LLD would do this? does Luke even think it's a realistic wincon for scum? he doesn't because he gave a reason why that would not work in the very next section of the post.

Because we were 256 posts into the game, literally every single person had posted in the game, and not a single person was posting as if they were cognizant of the way the math worked out.

Scum!LLD never catches any flack for not pointing it out, because... no one was aware of it. Even if *someone* did eventually run those same numbers, and tell the thread... no one is then going to look back and say "LLD in particular did not catch this!"

And no, I felt like there had to be a way to stop it. But LLD definitely thought about it, and even ran the numbers, and then made the decision to out those numbers to the thread. And if scum!LLD runs the numbers, she can just... not out them.

From my PoV, there was no downside for scum!LLD to keeping those numbers to herself, and there was a potential upside for her keeping them to herself. So my reaction is to think that scum!LLD would have been likely to make the choice to keep them to herself .

I also don't think that scum!lld would be interested in the popcorn plan for king selection at all

^why not? what if scum!LLD thinks town!LLD would do this? is the popcorn plan so damaging to scum that all scum must not engage with it and must shut it down?

This is dumb. This is not a matter of "scum must shoot it down" it is a matter of "would scum be the first person to suggest it"

There is no down side to her just... not suggesting it. And once again, literally no one else is going to look back and say "LLD in particular did not suggest this!"

The way that is very much how town!lld thinks about how sharing town read logic helps the scum team, to the point that I predicted response and so I did not ask, was then surprised (and a little suspicious actually) when I saw her say something that insinuated she would explain if asked, and then went back to her being squarely inside my expectation when I saw her actually refuse was actually a kind of funny experience while catching up earler.

Scum!LLD could easily fake a town case on almost any player. And doing so would likely result in most players being more likely to town read her, and definitely more likely to get other people to listen to her suggestion for king. Doing so would almost certainly help her with her #scumgoals right now, but she didn't because her paranoia about sharing town reads

^town!LLD doesn't share read logic, and she's not sharing read logic in this game, so she's town. Scum!LLD could make a town case, but she didn't, so she's town. These don't feel like real thoughts!! Plus, if this is known meta about LLD, why would she break it in this game with a bunch of players who have played with her? Luke acknowledges that she probably isn't playing around him specifically, but seemingly gives no thought to the other 19 players in this game?

My point was not that town lld never explains reads, and scum lld would... I am really sure that both town!lld and scum!lld have explained reads in lots of games... once they feel like doing so is more beneficial their wincon then not doing so.

My point was that town!LLD defaults to : "there is an inherent negative associated with explaining how or why I think any slot is town." And the benefit of doing so must outweigh that inherent negative that she perceives. For example, someone she is pretty sure is town is getting close to elimination

Scum!LLD, whenever explaining a town read helps her, all she would need to do is have a reason that it makes sense to explain it. And it is *very* easy to fake that. There is inherent reason to do that BUILT IN to this day phase, given the fact that we are not voting out scum and are instead voting for a king.

So, her being asked why she thinks certain people would make a good king automatically hands her the get out of jail free card to explain it, if she is scum, and wants people to follow her or ever to town read her for her choice.

And she did not take that. Which read to me, like that benefit genuinely did not out weigh that inherent negative that town!lld sees vs scum!lld purposefully not explaining it in order to imitate her town self.

---

tbh, most of this feels like GL is arguing "Because Luke is not explaining why scum!LLD would NEVER do these things, it is BAD and FAKE that luke would think that LLD is more likely to be town this game"

Which is dumb, because I don't think that there is very much that scum!LLD would NEVER do. That is not how I sort anyone, because scum can do literally anything.

*Could* scum!LLD out the numbers that outlined scum being closer to winning then anyone seemed aware of? Yes.
*Could* scum!LLD suggest the popcorn plan, which takes agency away from her determining the king? Yes.
*Could* scum!LLD stick to her "I don't explain town reads" thing, even when she would want to be in a position to sway people? Yes.

I was making the argument that scum!LLd seemed Less Likely to do each of these things, and therefore her having done all of these things left me to feel like she is more likely to be town.

---

I have also found that people who make arguments adjacent to "unless you are arguing that someone would/could never do it as scum, you cannot call them a townread" are scum

[Lukewarm]

I feel like Mastina is prone to forming a read Day 1, and then it is nearly impossible to engage her about them because all she does is double down. Any counter arguments only cause her to reexplain her read over and over, and become even more sure that she was right - seeming to talk herself more into it the more she puts it into words.

(See my last game with her, where she decided that Roden was scum on like page 5, and did not relent until he died, no matter how much I town cased him as an example)

That and the fact that I have seen her be stuck in a constant catch up loop in more then one game are the primary reasons I don't want her to be the king

[Lukewarm]

I am going to stop responding to GL.

[Lukewarm]

I am going to stop responding to GL.

stop responding to me is a good idea because we don't seem to be able to communicate productively, but frankly you should still be casing me because I'm your top scumread and currently a leading King vote, and

if you really believe I'm scum I'd expect you to keep doing that. I will have no chance of finding you town if you don't

There is no town motivation for this post.

If GL is town who thinks I am scum, he is telling me what not to do to get scum read by him, which is pretty ??

Contrasted to just... not saying this, and then seeing what I do in order to either further sort me / case me for it.

It also has that same twistiness built in to just call me scum for the sake of it. Seeing as how I was, like an hour ago, trying to get PP to not vote him for king.

[Lukewarm]

This is kind of an off shoot from my thinking on what I wanted to do with LLD earlier.

I had thought it good to cop check her, because she is scary, but at the time I had said that that would put her in a weak PR.

Thinking about it more, the first cop check should likely just be someone who becomes a permanent member of the kings guard.

This narrows the hunting pool if the king is ever killed, and gives the commander of the kingsguard someone in that pt that they can trust.

Furthermore, it spreads the power out more, forcing the scum team to decide between : the cop cleared player OR any and all of the PRs

That could still be LLD, with her serving the game as an IC instead of a memeber of the council. Otherwise, I am down for taking that role if for no other reason then to stop letting GL use "spin scum motivation into everything that Luke has to say about the game" as a tactic.

[Lukewarm]

I feel like Mastina is prone to forming a read Day 1, and then it is nearly impossible to engage her about them because all she does is double down. Any counter arguments only cause her to reexplain her read over and over, and become even more sure that she was right - seeming to talk herself more into it the more she puts it into words.

(See my last game with her, where she decided that Roden was scum on like page 5, and did not relent until he died, no matter how much I town cased him as an example)

That and the fact that I have seen her be stuck in a constant catch up loop in more then one game are the primary reasons I don't want her to be the king

I feel like this was ignored by you Rhea.

And to be clear, I don't think poorly of Mastina for this. I have played lots of games with her, and keep signing up to do so again.

This tendency is not that big of a deal when she is one vote amongst many, but feeling like I could not work with her this way makes me hesitant to give her so much control.

Of course, this is my experience, not anyone else's. However, just because it is my experience doesn't mean it's any less valid.

And to be honest with you, it does not feel like you are asking for your opinion and experience with Mastina to be treated as equally valid. It feels like you are demanding that your opinion and experience be elevated over that of other peoples.

Your experience makes you want to vote her to be king || My experience make me not want to vote her to be king.

Equal treatment of those two experiences is for you to let your experience guide your vote and for me to let my experience guide my vote. But you are asking us to vote her anyways.

Which would mean

ignoring our own experience

, and

voting based off of yours

.

That is not treating them as equally valid

[Lukewarm]

GL/Lukewarm

do you feel weird at all about voting with each other

I did notice that he moved to Baltar after me, and I did think that it was weird. But did not really know what to make of it.

With the biggest two wagons being at 4 out of 11 votes, it is kind of hard to say where scum would or would not be willing to go imo. Even now, him simply moving his own vote to himself makes him the distinctly bigger wagon.

VPB I'm voting you largely because I'm most confident you are town and you have momentum, and I'm really curious to see who is really actively against you being King because we are getting to a stage where I find scumreading you somewhat implausible on the whole.

I also found his reasoning pretty odd given at the time that he wrote this message, he was tied for the largest wagon, and had just recently gotten there.

Meaning, if town, he *should* be thinking about the fact that he has momentum and he knows he is town, meaning he actually fits that part of the bill better then baltar does from his own PoV.

But he is not.

I get the feeling that he is actively avoiding saying he should be king even when he is tied for the largest wagon to be king, which does not sit right with me.

[Lukewarm]

First of, doesn't everyone? Aren't you just as unwilling to compromise as I am? If you were willing to compromise, then someone should have been elected by now.

I would say no, because your posting seems singularly focused. I am willing to compromise if my preferred king cannot get enough votes. Seeing as how he is the biggest wagon atm, I don't see the need to do so though lol

You seem to not care about the actual electability of the person you are advocating for.

Second off, what is wrong with me lobbying for who I think is the best possible candidate? Sure, I may be forceful, but that is because none of you are taking my arguments into account, while expecting me to take yours into account. Consider my stance and I will consider yours, basically.

I never said that advocating for Mastina to be king was bad in and of itself. You were right to make the case for the person that you wanted to be king.

The issue is that you seem to not be able to accept that other people have different experiences then you do with Mastina.

You are never going to convince me that my experiences were not what they were, just like I will never convince you that your experiences were not what they were either. -- But neither of us should have that as a goal imo

And instead, working towards finding someone that we can agree on :
-Would be a good king
-Is likely town.

You can likely sway people's opinions on whether someone is likely town, but I doubt you, or I, or anyone will ever effectively sway someone's opinion on whether another player "would be a good king" or not, because that is so incredibly subjective and based on each persons unique past experience with that player.

Basically focusing on doing so is locking yourself into an unwinnable battle.

And I wish you would instead focus on compiling a full list of people you think would be a good king and is likely town, and seeing how many of those alternatives actually have a chance to be elected.

[Lukewarm]

I am a little scared to make LLD king

why?

Risk:Reward

I think that if a scum!LLD landed the king position, we would lose the game.

I think that if a town!LLD landed the king position, she would be effective -- but not massively noticeably more effective towards a town win condition then if she were to be in a council position or in the IC-esque position I described.

I won't stand in the way of king LLD, and can see myself compromising there if the other two look like they might lose to GL, but it kept her from being my first choice - which is what I was working out at the time.

[Lukewarm]

Luke's vote on VPB is about the only thing he's done that I haven't had a problem with. I don't think it's necessarily town-indicative because I am one of the main counterwagons and I am calling for his head

Ah yes. The good old "I need to vote for the counter election of the person scum reading me, so I am going to vote the person with 1 current vote instead of the person with 4 votes and is town reading me" strategy.

If I was primarily concerned about you being king because you scum read me, I just... vote LLD there lol

[Lukewarm]

That last post made me want to look back at when he started "calling for my head" and noticed this

I made my post about LLD with 657

At the time, he did not seem to care about (or at least enough to comment on) LLD read at all.

Even saying

I actually mostly like Luke's townreads

But then, suddenly when he wanted to case me.

he's given me the worst vibes by far with the overly explanatory LLD townread based on (imo) flimsy justification and lacking any visible doubt/paranoia

[Lukewarm]

Lukewarm very scummy.
Would still have him on the council though. Though i don't think master of ships is a position anymore

No fuck that, I don't even want on the council.

I want to be off council, and then cop checked night 1.

And once I am clear, we kill GL.

[Lukewarm]

At the time, he did not seem to care about (or at least enough to comment on) LLD read at all.

bruh

as an addendum thought, his long explanation of his LLD read gave me an impression of scum buddying town, I see a lot of explanation of things scum!LLD could have done instead of what she's done here, but virtually no paranoia about why she isn't scum just emulating what she thinks she would do as town. It's hard for me to put into words but it gives me a vibe of a read justification that was derived from assuming the conclusion (town!LLD) first

are you trying to act in good faith here??

Oh.

it seems my ctrl+f skills for "Luke" in your iso failed me. Once I saw the "I mostly liked his town reads except Bella" alarm bells went off given you quickly then went into attacking a town read I had.

I retract lol

[Lukewarm]

I am a little scared to make LLD king

why?

Risk:Reward

I think that if a scum!LLD landed the king position, we would lose the game.

I think that if a town!LLD landed the king position, she would be effective -- but not massively noticeably more effective towards a town win condition then if she were to be in a council position or in the IC-esque position I described.

I won't stand in the way of king LLD, and can see myself compromising there if the other two look like they might lose to GL, but it kept her from being my first choice - which is what I was working out at the time.

Sorry - why does scum!LLD = game over but town!LLD = no different than placed elsewhere?

I honestly don't know what part of that is confusing to you

Scum getting lots and lots of power = bad... especially when the power is put into the hands of probably the best scum player on the playerlist, someone who would absolutely figure out the best way to maximize the benefits of that power.

This feels like it should be a non-controversial take tbh.

Gonna assume that the question here is about the town scenario then.

I am distinctly [town!lld!king] to [another town player as king + LLD on the council (or cleared)].

And in that scenario, I think that she could effectively scum hunt, use what ever PR she gets, advise the king, ect, from that position too


However, the calculus would change if I thought the alternative to king LLD was a scum king.

[Lukewarm]

I want to be off council, and then cop checked night 1.

And once I am clear, we kill GL.

why not just cop me? wouldn't that be better FYPOV

I was already king of thinking that I wanted the first cop inno to be someone that is then permanently planted into the kings guard, so was thinking about that being me.

But I would not fight against it being used on you either I guess.

[Lukewarm]

And in that scenario, I think that she could effectively scum hunt, use what ever PR she gets, advise the king, ect, from that position too

sure sure - except she wouldn't be the one deciding who's on the council and in what position nor would she have protection from scum just offing her. Not much use as an advisor if dead. Like if you think LLD is town and as good a player as you are stating, she would be more effective, and quite likely for longer, as king vs on the council.

Maybe. I was primarily approaching the question from "if I am wrong on my read, I think this choice loses the game" then from the full benefits of her else where as town. I did advocate earlier to give her the weakest PR in order to make the scum team less likely to kill her, but maybe you are right.

i may have just talked myself into changing my vote

[Lukewarm]

A player receiving a potion must choose whether to drink it - if they choose to drink it they will be protected from one night-kill attempt on that night.

This feels ominously like you would not want to drink the potion if this role is scum.

[Lukewarm]

I am really struggling to believe that the ProfessorDrapion that I played with in Lost doesn't come into this game declaring that he should be made king because he is secretly the best mafia hunter to ever play on this site, and the wolves would cower in fear so much they might just give up were he to ascend the throne.

Yet Drap has not once said he should be king. No self vote. And instead half this game his vote was on Enchant lol

[Lukewarm]

Andante, I was responding to Drap showing back up in the thread advocating for king Junko instead of himself -- his iso starting at with 1285

[Lukewarm]

Hey, i want to prevent VP from getting king at all cost. He is mafia. GL is also, if VP votes for him.

@LLD
@UNOWen
@Andante
@Junko
@Firebringer
@ProfessorDrapion
@Titus
@mastina
@Rhaenyra


UNITE AND PREVENT CORRUPTION.

LET'S DECIDE BY DICE WHO AMONG ASS SHALL BE COUNTERKING.
I EVEN EXCLUDE SELF FROM RESULTS FOR HONESTY.

I don't know that I have ever witnessed such an enthusiastic read from Enchant lol

Enchant, why do you think that Baltar is Mafia?

[Lukewarm]

My experience with scum!titus in FGO II, which had a similar mechanic of "day 1 voting to give bonus powers to a player" was that she thought a lot about how to get that power into the hands of scum, and to not look like scum doing it. And then put a lot of work in the vote racketeering

And here she has just been... not really doing much towards influencing the king vote.

My gut says that that is a difference because she is town this time, and does not have a PT with which to be strategizing in the background with her co-conspirators.

[Lukewarm]

My experience with scum!titus in FGO II, which had a similar mechanic of "day 1 voting to give bonus powers to a player" was that she thought a lot about how to get that power into the hands of scum, and to not look like scum doing it. And then put a lot of work in the vote racketeering

And here she has just been... not really doing much towards influencing the king vote.

My gut says that that is a difference because she is town this time, and does not have a PT with which to be strategizing in the background with her co-conspirators.

I don't really like this post. I don't have any experience with luke really but I hate the kind of read hunting thats like "this is different, therefore I will treat it as an indication of different alignment."

Like fundamentally differences CAN be alignment indicative, but generally what I (and I think what most people hunting alignment) do is ask

"ok, but is there compelling motivations to be different for one side or the other."

and in this case there just isn't.

Why isn't town titus just as incentivized to try to get powers into the hands of town as scum titus is in getting them into the hands of scum?

Like your point here that she doesn't have a pt to strategize in is nonsense

in my opinion because we literally have...the game thread to do it in? Like yeah I get its not the same because of not knowing peoples alignments but like...come on.

Isn't a much more plausible reason for titus to not be caring that much is that she is genuinely disengaged and not paying that much attention?

I do think that there are fundamental differences from one side to the other.

Also, the line about the PT was not even a point I was making ABOUT being in a PT, as much as a flavorful way of saying it had not been planned in advance behind the scenes.

Like, the most distilled way I can think to reword my point here would be:

She does not seem to be actively working towards a pre-thought out agenda. And, based on my experience with scum!Titus (in a very similar situation) I would expect her to be actively working towards a pre-thought out agenda if she were scum.

[Lukewarm]

another thing, it seems luke goes out of his way not to address scumreads.
That seems particularly odd. Like he knows people are calling him scum. He just keeps going doing what he does.

The way it has felt like I have spent too much time responding to scum reads this game leaves me unsure what even to say in response to this lol.

As for you in particular, you basically fell off my radar as my focus narrowed in on who I wanted to be king and my scum read of GL exploded.

[Lukewarm]

Ok but that point is no remotely responsive to my critique. Why would she be working towards an agenda as scum but not as town? Why do you think town players don't have an agenda? I don't believe that someone who has played for more than 30 seconds of mafia would think that.

Why do you think "Scum player would try to make good for scum things happen but town player wouldn't try to make good for town things happen in the same circumstances" is a logically coherent position?

That is not my position at all, so not planning to defend the argument that you are putting there.

If "I don't think that scum!Titus would approach the king making process this way" supported by "I have seen the way scum!Titus approached a similar mechanic" is not compelling to you, then so be it I guess.

Convincing you that she is town is not exactly my biggest concern, and if you are going to scum read me for not liking the way I think about reads, then just get in line I guess.

[Lukewarm]

im off your radar huh

yes

[Lukewarm]

im off your radar huh

Lukewarm very scummy.
Would still have him on the council though. Though i don't think master of ships is a position anymore

No fuck that, I don't even want on the council.

I want to be off council, and then cop checked night 1.

And once I am clear, we kill GL.

Even in this very post, despite it being in response to something you said, you can clearly see that my focus at the time was not on you and was in fact on GL.

Like, this is exactly what I was saying, but you are presenting it like it is a gotcha

[Lukewarm]

Jesus this is frustrating, and almost feels not worth it.

[Lukewarm]

What?

Literally you are arguing that scum titus would be trying to enact her agenda on who gets to be king and therefore she is town.

In order for that to be a logical statement you would have to also be asserting that the town titus would not be doing this, otherwise there is no difference?

My assertion is that an engaged titus would be doing this as either alignment, and I think this is pretty obviously true.

I agree she is not doing this, but until you can express why you think she wouldn't be doing it as town, its a pretty nonsensical reason to town read someone, bordering on TMI.

It's so surface level to pick out a difference in two worlds and then jump right to alignment related reasons for that difference without considering whether that difference is actually explained by alignment.

And here it's just clearly not?

You are forcing it into a dicotomy that is not how I am thinking about it. And then asking me why I would support such a dicotomy.

My thoughts are that her approach does not feel like she is approaching this with a pre planned agenda that she is working towards.

"Scum player would try to make good for scum things happen but town player wouldn't try to make good for town things happen in the same circumstances"

Reframing it as "but town player wouldn't try to make good for town things happen" you completely divorced it from my own thinking.

Because I never said that Titus was not doing anything that could be her attempting to make good things happen for the town.

On the contrary, her comments on wanting there to be two large wagon dueling fits in line with something that I think that town!Titus believes, which is : "having dueling wagons and watching where people land as the vanity wagons start to dissipate creates valuable information with which to sort and discern players alignments. "

And she appears to be working more towards creating such a scenario then attempting to get any particular person elected.

[Lukewarm]

Anyways one thing crossed my mind as i went through the skim, i don't see an opinion on shea.

I do not really have very strong thoughts on him tbh, which is why I have not really mentioned him.

I had him down as a slight town read. I had not seen anything that set off any alarm bells, saw a couple posts that I remember having good vibes, and then I saw LLD had him as town, so I just kind of put that it away.

Maybe you can elaborate ur position there because fmpov if i were u, i would be using this engagement with him to get a read if u don't have one. Feels like you have unspoken read there by way u handle this interaction.

This engagement has just been frustrating, and maybe I can look back at it to think about an alignment, but in the moment all I am seeing is that I am frustrated by it.

another thing is i find it strange and I def don't think this is how u play but there was a lack of questions from u at players. You explained and gave plenty of thoughts on posts but i don't think i could find a question to get insight into a player once. Could have missed them but i was like "wait where are questions if he is sorting players".

I am being fairly upfront with the fact that I am not able to dedicate the amount of time and energy that I normally can bring to games.

Staying constantly read up, pushing the things that I feel most strongly about, and responding when people say something directed at me is frankly all I am really able to manage at the moment. And if anything, the fact that I am still right now responding to stuff is more time then I should be putting into is, seeing as it is 4 am right now.

If me having to priorize my focus during the early stages of this game result in people thinking I am scum, then I guess that will be that.

[Lukewarm]

priorize my focus during the early stages of this game

Like this exact conversation is about why I am not engaging more with responding to and casing out my 4th place scum lean.

And why have I not put more words into my 7th weakest town lean.

And the answer is just... those are not really my priority with my time that I can exist in this game.

And if you expect those to be more fleshed out from me, then I will almost certainly be failing to meet those expectations.

[Lukewarm]

i do not expect fleshed out reads. i don't think asking questions is a time commitment compared to how much thoughts uve already expressed. I just don't see sorting here.

Go to bed tho dude

My comment was not supposed to be about you asking about my read, it was in more in response to you saying I was not out interrogating people or responding to every thing that I could possibly respond to (which, to be fair, they are both things that I usually do).

But also I am tired, and that may not have been worded in a way that made that clear.

Anyways. I am going to sleep now for real

(I also feel like I have been sorting, and vocal about my reads on many slots)

[Lukewarm]

But you phrased it as though only Scum would approach the selection of King with an “agenda”, and I don’t agree. I’m interpreting agenda to mean having a specific objective in mind with your questions and posts.

No. I didn't.

Town can have agendas, and I never said other wise.

I mean, I actively had the agenda to keep GL from getting the kingship, because I think he is scum.

Constantly being misinterpreted by every player in this game is kind of frustrating.


I said that I don't see her working with a "pre-planned agenda". With a scum agenda. With one where she started with an end goal figured out before she started posting.

Actually every time the word Agenda has appeared in my iso, compiled for your viewing pleasure:

Spoiler:

She does not seem to be actively working towards a

pre-thought out

agenda.

I would expect her to be actively working towards a

pre-thought out

agenda if she were scum.

Then where I responded to a TSQ post

Why do you think town players don't have an agenda?

That is not my position at all, so not planning to defend the argument that you are putting there.

My thoughts are that her approach does not feel like she is approaching this with a pre planned agenda that she is working towards.

So once again "town would not have a goal behind their posts" and "town would not be working towards a town wincon" are not, and never have been, my position.

[Lukewarm]

I am just going to shake my head to myself and walk away rather then put any more posts into this.

This is like the 4th time where I said something pinged me as *either alignment* and was met with "but are you considering the possibility that *the opposite alignment* could/would do that."

And I don't know that I have it in me to keep fighting the good fight to argue that I can think something is more likely to come from one alignment without saying that it can never come from the other alignment.

I don't know if the issue is that when I voice the ping, and someone asks me to explain why it pinged me that way, I am only explaining the half that I felt more likely or what.

[Lukewarm]

It also feels like other people are perceiving my thoughts in more absolutes then I think them.

But I may be wrong, but that is how it feels.

[Lukewarm]

You’re arguing Titus is Town when I have Titus as Scum. You’re saying they don’t have an agenda and I don’t like that reasoning because when I read their ISO, I’m not seeing Town. Like this isn’t complicated.

Oh. I am not really interested in convincing you or anyone really, that Titus is town currently

I have not done like a full iso dive on her to shore up my read on the slot to even have that much confidence on her being town. I was more in the position of "I have had zero alignment thoughts about Titus" into "Oh look, I think that seems town indicative"

I was pretty content just stating the strength of the thought I had which was

My gut says that that is a difference because she is town this time

I was not expecting that to result in any further conversation about Titus tbh.

And the only reason it got into the nitty gritty was that there was someone arguing that my thoughts were something other then what they were, and that the thought that they thought I thought was nonsense / scum indicative. And I was trying to clear up what seemed like a misconception.

I don't generally make it a habit of debating the townieness of a gut town read. Like basically at any point in a game of mafia. Like, if we were in a normal game of mafia, and you were starting a wagon on her, that would be a point where I would be : rereading her iso to shore up the read to decide if I was trying to save her or not. Not, just... arguing to convince you.

[Lukewarm]

@Dwlee.

Why did you find it suspcious that I said that I would not expect Junko to make the slip arguement as scum

I didn't realize what I was voting for when I voted for enchant oh no oh no oh no

UNVOTE:

HURT: Lukewarm

Yeah yeah,I read the post, and I can't find the seven days thing

Did someone ask this is the scum pt and you forgot?

I want to say that this is town, because what scum is going to fake this argument

I don't think this is legit

Enough to bring it up 600 posts later

I didn't agree with lukewarm calling junko town for making a silly argument

But found no issue with GL making the same argument, either at the time, or when you looked back at GL's iso

if Junko knew Andante was town, I think it'd be less likely for them to assume the scum!PT argument would work and miss Andante quoting where the mod gave us that info. she'd know Andante was telling the truth so I don't think the scumslip idea would occur to her. I think that's what Andante is saying as well.

[Lukewarm]

This game sure does just keep on keeping on.

Skimmed some of what has happened, and see somethings I'll try to respond to later, but did not even have time to read everything

@LLD how do you feel about king TSQ?

[Lukewarm]

Basically none of Mastina's takes make a lick of sense to me, but I am also not sure that that is scum indicative for her. The way that she is real time engaging to defend her position actually looks to me more like she truly believes it, even if it doesn't make any sense.

---

@Datisi

Mainly the instant reaction from me explaining why I did not like something" straight to

k luke is scum

Like, that is the literal next post after I said it, and it came without actually engaging with anything I said or considering if I could just be wrong town, rang to me like I was actually right.

But the more I am running face first into person after person deciding that everything I am thinking about this game is so scummy, I am actually less sure that that was it now, because too many people are having that response to me, so there are definitely townies out there having that reaction to me.

---

But also, I am happier calling Baltar town for pointing people who were around in KTaNE back to that game. Existing in this game feels a bit like existing in that game did. Both because it was *a large game that I joined and started at a time where I did not have the mental capacity for a large game* and also the way it felt like I was being reacted to.

Catboi in particular was scum reading me on the basis that my thoughts could not be real thoughts, which is how this game has felt repeatedly.

My gut reaction to Datisi's response was to think he was scum wanting to keep calling me scum because he brushed it off. But just now, I went back and looked at my ISO from that game, and realized that in that game, after Catboi started making that argument, I actually repped out instead of getting into it with him. So actually, from the PoV of my iso, maybe it is not as similar as it feels from the PoV of the drivers seat

---

Looking back at KTaNE also makes me feel like I need to take a reset in this game, because my final reads list before I repped out had me with the two loudest people calling me scum as my strongest scum reads (both were town), and taking stock, I have kind of been heading in that direction this game too.

[Lukewarm]

Oh, and I hated 1600 from Charloux

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: tsq

[Lukewarm]

If anyone has any suggestions for me for king whether they be mech thoughts, speculations, people you think should have roles and people who you think shouldn't, now would be the time to throw them out into the world.

The people I would not really want to give a PR to:

1. Rhaenyra
11. GuiltyLion
13. Dwlee99
19. ProfessorDrapion
20. Bellaphant
21. Enchant
14. Charloux

If you are not going to just listen to me and keep them off at all, I would say as a minimum not to give them Prince or Master of Coin please

People who I would trust with the more important Price and Master of Coin:
8. VPBaltar
18. Lady Lambdadelta
6. Andante
4. Andresvmb


The rest of the PRs chosen from:
2. Titus
10. Unowen
16. mastina
17. Junkochan
--------
3. PenguinPower
9. Dannflor
12. Firebringer
15. Datisi

[Lukewarm]

[datisi, thestatusquo, andres, unowen
[rhaenyra, vpbaltar, firebringer?, LLD]
[titus?, penguinpower, charloux, PD, enchant, adante]
[mastina, guiltylion]
[dwlee, bellaphant]

idk my thoughts are kinda haphazard

I did not like GL/Mastina's spat at all, it felt like it stopped being productive after 2 posts and while that is in character for mastina I feel like GL would be less prone to continue an argument seemingly just for the sake of arguing

LLD's trajectory this game feels townie to me as I'm looking back. I think her stepping back and not trying to control the game after feeling discouraged is like +town. not that I think her emotions would be ingenuine as either alignment, but I think scum her *might* be more likely to *use* that emotion to propel herself in this game. idk she just isn't trying to control as much as I would expect from scum her here despite being given opportunities to.

I probably feel the best about my top and bottom tiers respectively

I also kinda think that scum likely rallied around one or two scum slots max to try to get king. I highly doubt mastina's theory about 3 wagons being scum is true. Much more likely that scum decided early on who would go for it and who wouldn't, barring something unexpected happening. right now I'm kinda feeling like GL might fit that spot.

the way the Shea wagon sprung up feels like it wasn't driven by scum but I don't have great reasons for that other than *vibes*

Why am I not here?

+1

[Lukewarm]

Ok, so here is where my head is at:

King: andres
Prince of Dragonstone: GuiltyLion (maybe?)
Hand of the King: (IDK, should this be a scummy person we force to give a result?)
Lord Commander of the Kingsguard: VP Baltar (LLD, I will put you on the kingsguard with me so we can find the traitors)
Master of Coin: Dannflor
King's Justice: TSQ

What other roles do we need to assign? Are we taking risks with the kingsguard appointments by not putting any scummy people on the small council?

Updating these.

Prince of Dragonstone: GuiltyLion
Hand of the King: Datisi
Lord Commander of the Kingsguard: VP Baltar
Master of Coin: Firebringer
King's Justice: andres
Master of whispers: LLD
Grand Maester: Andante

Maybe you are prioritizing differently which slots feel most important to have town in, but I feel like Master of Coin is likely the most important, followed by Prince, and then Leader of the Kingsguard third.

Maybe that is wrong for some reason, but that was my impression.

So I would kind of prefer you in one of those two slots. (especially over GL and firebringer )

Similarly, I feel like Grand Maester does not matter as much, since if any scum get into the council at all , they should know who the maester is being told to target, so it kind of feels not all that imporant / likely to actually ever save anyone, so less inclined to put andante there.

And probably least important, imo, is the two invests. Since forcing scum to claim results on who ever they are told to invest each night seems semi-useful. Like, obviously not as good as having town there, but not like actively harmful compared to coin or prince (once it becomes king)

[Lukewarm]

It doesh't matter if Master of Coin is scum, PRs designed to be "unknown" cost. So mafia can just claim that their ability costs like 30 coins.

Master of coins is the most secretive role in the game, with apparent power to determine if other prs actually fire.

It also has built in unknown factors, like how much gold we started with, and how much we gain, ect.

Being the only one with access, knowledge, and control of a core resource in the game feels to me like it is super important to land in the hands of town.

[Lukewarm]

I think Kingsguard is more important because that role has exclusive power to select the guard. As Datisi notes, if any scum get in there, that's bad and poses major threats to the King/heir/council down the line.

My thinking is that if we are trying to put townies on the council, and then the commander of the kingsguard is trying to put all townies in the kings guard... they are just going to fail.

Some member of the 5 man scum team

is

going to land inside the 9th - 14th most town read players on the playerlist.

Since I don't think that that is actually an achievable goal anyways, I don't think that it is as important of a slot.

[Lukewarm]

@luke I noticed you now have me firm scum. Fun stuff. Why don't we talk about it, what do u find scummy about now?
Also how is bella so townie to u that u think she should be council member. That is pretty out there

You wildly misread my list

[Lukewarm]

Also @luke so ur just saying u don't want me as council. Okay but doesn't that equal scumread? Or u just saying u don't trust me with power. I don't get what kind of position u even have on me here. Why the hell do u want bella as council and she is town to u.

You are still misreading. Like you post right here is saying nearly the opposite of where I had you and Bella.


My post says that Bella should not be in the council at all. It has you listed in the you are in the mish mash of people that would not be my first choice (and therefore not in the slots I think are most important), but I would not actively fight against getting something either if TSQ just... disagreed with me.

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: LLD

Okay, as you wish.

Can you tell me what your town reads and scum reads are and specifically how they've evolved from like...day 2-3 of the king making phase.

Am I going to be wasting my time and then you just shoot me anyway?

Also I literally I a convo about this with VP Baltar but okay, shit. Let's do more work I guess.

King Shea won't shoot anyone today

Just to be clear, TSQ asked for this to be said to you via one of us us because he is low on posts, so this is a message from TSQ - not Junko's opinion on TSQ lol

[Lukewarm]

unwnd, I thought you were permanently retired, were the Social security checks not enough to make ends meet? lol

[Lukewarm]

I feel like lost in what is happening in this game atm.

Like, I simultaneously scum read Dwlee while having no idea how his wagon managed to manifest itself into existence the way that it did?

Dwlee99 [9]: VP Baltar, Datisi, GuiltyLion, Rhaenyra, Dannflor, PenguinPower, Junkochan, Firebringer, Unowen

I feel like at the time of the votes

Datisi and GL both thought I was scummier then Dwlee.

Rhae and PP and unowen never mentioned Dwlee before their votes

Junko had a reads post that had no mention of Dwlee.

(Dann did actually have Dwlee in his bottom tier reads and Firebringer's positioning might make the most sense wrt this wagon actually)

but with that as the makeup that suddenly put their wagon at 9 votes. 1 away from the enchant instant hammer.

The wagon was so unexpected that I don't actually really know what to think about it.

Like, if anything I was expecting a *me* wagon.

But instead we are living here, and all of these people are now super sure that Dwlee is scum. to the point that none of the people (most of who just elected tsq king) and looking at where he is pointing. Which also feels pretty backwards thinking, since I feel like LLD is more likely town, but with *most* of these votes coming without the prior scum read, were they just sheep votes? Are they skeeping Baltar? If it is just that there are this many people who would rather sheep Baltar then TSQ, why did TSQ get elected king over Baltar.

But flip side of all of that, is that prior to their sudden wagon, I was ALSO Dwlee's biggest scum read. Yet once he suddenly had a wagon, they went into *attack my voters* mode instead of *case the person that they had previously presented as their biggest scum read as the person who actually should be eliminated this day phase* mode.

As I am typing this, I am aware that I am not actually ending on any conclusions, which is pretty #sadtimes #waffling -- but I genuinely feel unmoored in this game atm.

[Lukewarm]

I feel like lost in what is happening in this game atm.

Like, I simultaneously scum read Dwlee while having no idea how his wagon managed to manifest itself into existence the way that it did?

Dwlee99 [9]: VP Baltar, Datisi, GuiltyLion, Rhaenyra, Dannflor, PenguinPower, Junkochan, Firebringer, Unowen

I feel like at the time of the votes

Datisi and GL both thought I was scummier then Dwlee.

Rhae and PP and unowen never mentioned Dwlee before their votes

Junko had a reads post that had no mention of Dwlee.

(Dann did actually have Dwlee in his bottom tier reads and Firebringer's positioning might make the most sense wrt this wagon actually)

but with that as the makeup that suddenly put their wagon at 9 votes. 1 away from the enchant instant hammer.

The wagon was so unexpected that I don't actually really know what to think about it.

Like, if anything I was expecting a *me* wagon.

But instead we are living here, and all of these people are now super sure that Dwlee is scum. to the point that none of the people (most of who just elected tsq king) and looking at where he is pointing. Which also feels pretty backwards thinking, since I feel like LLD is more likely town, but with *most* of these votes coming without the prior scum read, were they just sheep votes? Are they skeeping Baltar? If it is just that there are this many people who would rather sheep Baltar then TSQ, why did TSQ get elected king over Baltar.

But flip side of all of that, is that prior to their sudden wagon, I was ALSO Dwlee's biggest scum read. Yet once he suddenly had a wagon, they went into *attack my voters* mode instead of *case the person that they had previously presented as their biggest scum read as the person who actually should be eliminated this day phase* mode.

As I am typing this, I am aware that I am not actually ending on any conclusions, which is pretty #sadtimes #waffling -- but I genuinely feel unmoored in this game atm.

[Lukewarm]

Sorry. They/Them

[Lukewarm]

I mentioned dwelee, I said I had issues reading them, nobody answered me yet and people I've played with know that I would gladly pressure lurkers

Looked again, I missed it because you mispelled their name lol.

Because I was cross checking lots of people in succession, I was relying pretty hard on the ctrl+f feature.

I guess update your section to "did not seem to have dwlee as their strongest scum read in their reads post"

[Lukewarm]

Did Lukewarm improve in the scum department?

[Lukewarm]

Did Lukewarm improve in the scum department? That's an unabashed 'I am town lukewarm extended my hand out to anyone as I feel unsure' post if I ever saw one

If you were to ask pooky, he would tell you that I am so amazingly perfect as scum that one must never town read me without a cop inno on me, so there

[Lukewarm]

Scum you would've just taken the credit immediately instead of trying to reinstate yourself

Hmm yes I think I will keep this one

It is fairly frustrating that this is exactly how I picture you figuring you that I am town when you are town, but I also hate it

I don't like feeling like someone is giving me a town read on the basis that they think I would be bad as scum, when I think I am pretty decent. Not great, but decent.

Unwnd was probably the worst offender on this, like pretty blatantly said in every game we played in together x x

Anyways, this is exactly what I would expect from town unwnd

And no, I did not feel like he did this in the two games where I played against scum!unwnd, and no - I would not expect unwnd to know that I think of him this way, because while I saw it happening over and over with him, I don't think that I ever had confidence to call him out for it, because I did not really have very many scum games to my name at the time him and I had played together before.

[Lukewarm]

Logically, I know I've found you as town

LLD, if you think that he is town despite his scum read on you, why do you want him to be killed for being wrong? Just spite?

Also, if you are worried that even if you live the day, you are going to be iced out because of tsq's paranoia, why not advocate for the night 1 cop check to be on you?

[Lukewarm]

Like, shouldn't that solve your issue more effectively then you getting miseliminated and then the king you think is town being killed too lol

[Lukewarm]

What are your thoughts on being the night 1 cop check?

[Lukewarm]

i'm starting to lock onto a luke/dwlee team. while dwlee was first getting run up, luke did this weird "well i think dwlee is really scummy but like datisi and gl voted there so i'm not voting there lole" which at the time pinged me as scum not wanting to be caught not supporting the dwlee wagon, but also not wanting to actually flame it further

Right, right, right. So, i saw my buddy get run up, and decided that to look good if they flipped, I needed to call them scum (but not actually be on wagon). But I also don't want them to actually be eliminated, so I wrote a scum case on them in the PT, and then pushed... no where else.

You are right. This is a brilliant scum/scum strategy.

Could not possibly be that the wagon came into existence so fast, full of votes of people I was suspicious of, that I got cautious. Or that the wagon is actually at e-2, with a game with enchant in it, meaning that a vote there at this point is effectively a hammer now.

and 1820 feels like, scum-luke tmi-ing something that scum-dwlee did, scum-dwlee trying to damage control.

quick question.

What part of my point are you even accusing of being "tmi"?

But flip side of all of that, is that prior to their sudden wagon, I was ALSO Dwlee's biggest scum read. Yet once he suddenly had a wagon, they went into *attack my voters* mode instead of *case the person that they had previously presented as their biggest scum read as the person who actually should be eliminated this day phase* mode.

This is a good post but I don't think you were my top scumread

Like?

The thing you are referencing is me saying "before this happened dwlee scum read me" and "when voted, dwlee attacked their voters instead of pushing me"

Like, yes. It does kind of look like Dwlee is just in damage control in response to this, because it sure did feel like I was (at least one of) their strongest scum reads. What with only having 2 scum reads as of 711 (you and me) and then voting for GL to be king because they thought GL looked town for scum reading me in 1444.

It is really hard to look at this post from you, and not think it started from a point of wanting to call me scum vs seeing something that makes you actually think I am scum. Whether that be a scum agenda, or because you are conf. biasing on me at this point I am less sure, because I actually started thinking of you as town in our PT.

[Lukewarm]

i think the disonance between writing a case and then not voting it is scummy, yes. especially considering your justification for not doing so is disliking me and guiltylion, i think we're both town and i think your cases on both of us were horrible. quietly bussing a deadweight partner, while a common strategy, is level zero play at this point, and not all scum is going to play that way.

i don't think it's safe for you to try to push anywhere right now, you'd be sinking your slot even further.

My point is that this is a shit strategy if we were scum partners.

Like, I would *either* be bussing for the cred, jumped on the wagon and put my dwlee case out here presented with confidence. OR, I would be hoping for them to be able to survive, and I would be advocating for the elimination of someone else. (I also don't buy that i could not do that, seeing as how I have other scum reads lol)

I do think that you seeing "this person is calling the biggest wagon scummy, even making new points against them, but they are not voting them" is an odd jump to them being scum together. Like, even if you think I am scum, it seems like the more natural reading of those actions would be that I am scum and dwlee is town, and I am hoping dwlee is eliminated without me needing to actually vote him. [Or conversely, I am town and while I had dwlee in my scumreads, they were never my strongest scum read, and my actual intent was to vote GL at the start of the elimination phase before the sudden dwlee wagon threw me off]

But you seem to have started your process with the conclusion "luke and dwlee are both scum" already in mind.

framing it as "dwlee attacking their voters" rather than "dwlee attacking their scumreads" because the main person they are attacking and advocating to yeet is me

It was not just that he voted you.

It was that the moment his wagon appeared, I disappeared completely from his ISO until I made that post. He started with voting you. He grew to calling Dann scum too. He made a reads list of the people who were voting him.

So, whether you think I was his biggest scum read or not. (My feeling was that I was at least in the running, seeing as how his King vote was based on the person he was voting to be king scum reading me. Even after he apparently stopped thinking that the Junko things was scum indicative, here is his stated reason he voted GL king

I saw you had votes on you, looked at your iso, thought you were town for your thoughts on lukewarm, and then voted you

"I voted you king because of your scum read on Lukewarm"

Sure, he never made a proper reads list, but it is pretty hard to look at this stance, and not expect that this means I am his biggest scum read.

Or at least up there!

So, yes. It seemed hella weird that I then disappeared from all of his posts once his wagon formed.

what are your current thoughts on mine and dwlee's alignment then? is there anyone else you want to push right now?

For you: I swayed pretty heavily to town based on the mod question that you asked in the PT. But, I am less sure again. Conflicted would be the best place.

For dwlee: gth, scum. The main reason I am not pushing else where is that, while their wagon is weird, I am not really interested in saving them. When I realized that they were at 9 votes, I had kind of just thought that it was a foregone conclusion at this point, and was focused more in what to do with LLD v TSQ

[Lukewarm]

TSQ has his current council picks as:

Prince - Unwnd
Hand of the King Datisi
Lord Commander Andresvmb
Coin firebringer
Laws- Andante
Whisper Lukewarm
Grand Maester Junkochan

And asked for it to be posted here so everyone can weigh in

[Lukewarm]

TSQ wants to know:

what the FRICK is going on in the other PT

(may or may not be expertly paraphrased)

[Lukewarm]

Lukewarm - unsure. I remember townreading him in a game I spectated of his when they were mafia.

I am actually struggling to even parse what you are saying here:

You are leaning town on my content, but unsure because of a game you spectated which made you think you would town read me as scum?
You are leaning scum on my content, but unsure because of a game you spectated which made you think you would town read me as scum?

You are still null on my content unrelated to that game (and mentioning the game is just a stray thought)?

Also, why is your point of reference for me in this post a game that you spectated, instead of any of the games we have actually played together?

[Lukewarm]

PD - seems town based on experience

Do you have experience with him outside of Lost?

[Lukewarm]

Both the master of coin and the commander of the kingsguard have to submit their actions during the day.

So, please make sure we don't actually end the day before those have been confirmed to have been done.

[Lukewarm]

Not that I want the day to drag, but more that I would like for the two of them to confirm that they are ready Soon™

[Lukewarm]

Did we establish who firebringer is funding and why?

Firebringer said he was not going to confirm who he was funding in advance, nor was he saying how much disposable income he had. So no.

I asked to be funded if he has the funds for it after the cop and doc tho.

I have not seen any where that he has confirmed he has submitted his gold choices to the mod

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

Shooting my shot

[Lukewarm]

Not to sound like a broken record, but I *really* think that GL is scum this game.

Here is the most recent thing that bothered me.

In the support of the king PT, I made a big argument that LLD should be the night 1 cop target.

I don't actually think that I have seen anyone else argue who the cop should be on other then earlier in the day when I claimed that it should be on me lol.

until I saw GL saying that it should be Junko.

And my gut reaction was to wonder, why in the world junko would be a better cop check then LLD?

I went back to look to see how GL has posted about LLD this game. In the supporter thread, he had not mentioned LLD at all, despite there being quite a bit of talk surrounding her in there, both with TSQ's case and with us responding to her reaction to his scum case once it hit the main thread.

But in the main thread, I saw that he had previously tried to get LLD on the council once Shea was named king

people that should: me, baltar, guilty, firebringer
then i guess junko, dannflor, unowen?

These feel pretty good to me. I would swap Junko for LLD, I'm still getting a weird vibe from her.

And seeing the two, felt like he was posting with an agenda. Like. pushing to get Junko copped would keep LLD from getting copped (as she was the only other person someone had argued for) and also trying to get LLD on the council. Which kind of was strengthened by the fact that

he seemed to be actively avoiding talking about her once it because a real topic in the supporter thread.

So, I went and asked GL to put his thoughts on LLD into a post. His response was a gut read of light scum read.

That read felt very out of touch from "advocating that she go on the council" and "pushing an alternate cop choice"

I wanted to make sure that the LLD read had not wildly shifted from when he made the post about the council position, so I asked him when he started thinking of her that way, like was it a shift based on the TSQ case.

His response to that one was that he had already gotten "bad vibes" and a "few pings" before the TSQ case, but was not trusting himself on it until she had done more, but that then yes, he had liked TSQ's case.

So, I am still stuck with the fact that is claiming that he was at "bad vibes" on the LLD slot at the same time that he was naming LLD as his first choice to replace Junko on the council

I underlined a part that I felt was important in my own head, but did not actually end up taking up much of the spot light on this post.

I also found his positioning around his own kingship, while his kingship was the leading wagon suspicious. Here is my earlier post wrt that plus danns, because he seemed to put it in better words

VPB I'm voting you largely because I'm most confident you are town and you have momentum, and I'm really curious to see who is really actively against you being King because we are getting to a stage where I find scumreading you somewhat implausible on the whole.

I also found his reasoning pretty odd given at the time that he wrote this message, he was tied for the largest wagon, and had just recently gotten there.

Meaning, if town, he *should* be thinking about the fact that he has momentum and he knows he is town, meaning he actually fits that part of the bill better then baltar does from his own PoV.

But he is not.

I get the feeling that he is actively avoiding saying he should be king even when he is tied for the largest wagon to be king, which does not sit right with me.

GL, why don't you want to be King?

Like, when I first pressed you on it at the start of the game you said you would if other people started advocating for it first, but since then there has been a lot of support for the idea of you as King and you've like... barely commented on it.

I actually really agree with you that scum are likely to feel very awkward playing around King votes. And they'll probably have more trouble advocating for themselves convincingly than a townie would. I don't understand why you as town wouldn't be more positive about the wagon on you?

like I read 1200 and you just kinda completely dodge the question or idea of you being King

it reads like... very LAMIST. like look at me I'm voting for someone not me to *see what happens*. Kinda like Titus except I actually kinda believe Titus thinks her play is optimal

I don't know I'm just not understanding what your mindset would be here as town. It feels like you're awkwardly avoiding discussing the topic at all, but you clearly don't NOT want to be king? like you aren't discouraging a wagon on you? so is it just that you don't care?

it feels like you want to encourage votes on you without explicitly doing that

I also felt like his VP Baltar positioning has been very pockety. The line that really stood out to me was this one:

I'm really curious to see who is really actively against you being King because we are getting to a stage where I find scumreading you somewhat implausible on the whole. personally I've seen you as scum twice now and your vibes are different to me this game

Where he is not only presenting himself as sure that VPB is town, but also that he finds it "implausible" for any one to think he could be scum, which does not feel like a real thing that people would be thinking, especially when the presented evidence that he comes up with to say that he is town is "your vibes are different then the vibes in the scum games that you and I both existed in" which is incredibly hard to then link back to saying that other people, as town, would always see what he sees since they were not likely even in the other game - but instead feels like a pocket comment.

(I also feel like his push on me was disingenuous, but not pulling any quotes for that because doubt it will be convincing to anyone who is not me)

[Lukewarm]

hmm...guess i like baltar more now.

luke - why the sudden interest in starting gl wagon now since you scumread dwlee and decided to be a non-voter forever and a day.

I scum read GL more, and he was the person that I wanted to vote for before the dwlee wagon even sprang up. The dwlee wagon appearing so fast kind of stopped me from doing anything, and then when it hit 9 votes it seemed pointless to ever try to get my biggest scum read eliminated.

But now that wagon dropped started shrinking, and TSQ has made several posts about not wanting that wagon, and it still feels icky that there were so many of the same people who wanted TSQ to be king, but then immediately sheeped onto a wagon that he did not support. So I thought "I can shoot my shot" lol

[Lukewarm]

hmm...guess i like baltar more now.

luke - why the sudden interest in starting gl wagon now since you scumread dwlee and decided to be a non-voter forever and a day.

I scum read GL more, and he was the person that I wanted to vote for before the dwlee wagon even sprang up. The dwlee wagon appearing so fast kind of stopped me from doing anything, and then when it hit 9 votes it seemed pointless to ever try to get my biggest scum read eliminated.

But now that wagon dropped started shrinking, and TSQ has made several posts about not wanting that wagon, and it still feels icky that there were so many of the same people who wanted TSQ to be king, but then immediately sheeped onto a wagon that he did not support. So I thought "I can shoot my shot" lol

did you do some campaigning for the gl wagon in your pt?

Not a ton.

I have had a fairly limited scope on this game, because at the start of this day phase I was alive in 4 active games (all three others have ended in fairly quick succession and this is now my only game lol) plus a lot of real life stuff.

When I was here, my brain was more focused on there being a sudden dwlee wagon, tsq's lld case and her response, and figuring out the council (like where the cop should go). I had largely just accepted that dwlee was the day's elim, and had started looking past that.

Gl kind of cropped back up into my view finder on the 19th, so I asked him some questions, but did not get a response from him until last night, so I was also just in a holding pattern wrt that until then too.

[Lukewarm]

Junko, unwnd, Titus villa nice did my part YW.

Me next!
Me next!

[Lukewarm]

Hmmm.

I might be getting cold feet.

Maybe we go back to "let's kill dwlee today, and cop lld tonight, and then try to solve the game from there" ?

[Lukewarm]

In this game it just seems like a lot of his reads just spring out of the air and he seems completely married to them as opposed to ever going back and reevaluating. I think this post is pretty interesting:

I am reevaluating. My read on Lukewarm went scum->town. My reads on junko & Mastina went town->scum. Several of my other reads have bounced around the place. This is categorically untrue

We're at a point now where I have townreads and people i don't townread and I'd like a flip, and have been at that point for a few days. This is how I play every D1. You don't have as good of a sense for me as a player as you think you do.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

Call this as opportunistic as you like

but how hard do you need to backtrack and scramble in one post? Like, does the rest of the context matter and make this better? I'm curious.

Just saw I'm a leading wagon so I either can slam dunk a wolf or get a free ticket out of the game?

Oh my goodness what a goated rep slot.

idk what game yall are reading cause not once did I say I am voting him to save my ass I just think the dude is wolfy af maybe I need to speak in dr. Seuss rhymes and that'll make more sense

How the hell else can someone read what you wrote? You absolutely did say you were voting to save your ass. Why are you denying that now?

I kind of already posted this in our PT, but that is not how I read her 2170 post.

I don't read that like the primary concern is "voting someone who is not me to save myself"

Because what she actually says is "so I either can slam dunk a wolf" or die. The primacy concern is successfully killing a wolf, not just *anyone not named MariaR*

[Lukewarm]

Furtiveglace's reads list is wild, but not in a way that I think makes him scum.

Like, reading through it, I actually think that on the whole, it makes me more inclined to think he is town then probably anything else that the slot has done.

VOTE: Dwlee

[Lukewarm]

Furtiveglace's reads list is wild, but not in a way that I think makes him scum.

Like, reading through it, I actually think that on the whole, it makes me more inclined to think he is town then probably anything else that the slot has done.

VOTE: Dwlee

Can you explain this a bit? you said earlier you were sketched out significantly because of the speed of the wagon, right? Why dwlee now after resisting earlier?

I was never against the Dwlee wagon. They were kind of my second most preferred elimination.

Even when I was sketched out by it, I was also not interested in trying to divert it, because I could see dwlee scum and I thought that with so many people taking hard stances on it, it would be useful regardless. I was fairly content in just letting it happen, and focusing more on where to go after.

Until my scum read on GL resurged in strength + TSQ not wanting the dwlee wagon + TSQ agreeing with my scum case made me decide to go for that.

So, now that I am less sure i want to lead the town into GL, Dwlee lands back at my best bet for the day 1 elim.

[Lukewarm]

Is this what it's like to have you on my side Luke? How refreshing I'm ever so thankful that someone understood it. I was beginning to think I was speaking insanity. Do you think there's anyone I should look at as a point of interest? I'm sadly out of topics at the moment.

Your play is kind of sketching me out, but I kind of hope that we are on the same side.

It is hard to know where to point you, when a lot of your reads just came as "declaration of read"

Junko, unwnd, Titus villa nice did my part YW.

Andante Professor villa

VP ew

I don't really even have a grasp of what you have read / not read to have gotten you there.

TSQ is probably the most important person for you to get a solid read on, with him being king and all. Maybe look over his scum case on LLD too in 1807 because she is the person I am currently being advocated to be copped (maybe put thought into your suggestion for that too?)

[Lukewarm]

I was never against the Dwlee wagon. They were kind of my second most preferred elimination.

Who was your first preferred elimination at that time? You weren't voting, I believe.

GL.

I was not voting because I was accepting the dwlee elim as being the day 1 elim - so, was not pushing for it.

[Lukewarm]

You'd think that I'd be the person you'd most want want to sort, given the fact that

you need to determine if you want to protect me or not if you're on the kingsguard.

You're saying "I can be there instead of mafia who might unprotect me." is the kind of question I'd maybe think you'd be interested in answering but your attempts to find the answer to that question seem to be limited to like the first 10 posts of my iso with the dumbest surface level read I've ever seen.

While I agree that you are a priority sort, I disagree that someone necessarily needs to be confident on their read on you to make the determination to defend you or not.

Like, a townie should always default to defending the king, unless the specific scenario of : the kingsguard PT reaches a majority opinion in the decision to over throw the king.

A townie solo voting to not protect is near game throwing levels of strategy.

Scum will never kill a scum king. So just "not protecting" is functionally useless in response to thinking that the king might be scum.

Like the possibilities are:
"the townie's scum read on the king is right" --king is scum, I don't protect, scum dont kill. Nothing happened
OR
"the townie's scum read on the king is wrong" --king is town, I don't protect, scum do then kill, a town king died.

That is all down side with no up side.

I know that I am ineligible, but if I were an option, and was uncertain on you, then I would still think "the best thing is for me to go to the kingsguard and protect" so seeing furtive land on the same conclusion is good?

[Lukewarm]

@furtive - if you are null and conflicted on TSQ, why do you want to be on Kingsguard?

especially because you said you wanted to be on the kingsguard?

I just saw you and GL both comment on his stance of wanting to be on the kingsguard, while I feel like "wanting to be on the kingsguard despite not having a solid town read on the king" is actually a townie stance, that I did not think that you had really realized.


I kind of feel like, if a scum wanted to get on the kingsguard with the intent of letting you be night killed, they would not be simultaneously saying "put me on the kingsguard" and "I don't town read the king" and would instead want to look like The Person Who Definitely Choose To Protect The King, How Could This Tradgety Have Happened, I Am Devestated At This Injustice.

[Lukewarm]

I made a post in the council PT saying that I am leaning town on Furtive's recent postings, and that of the people being discueesed for elimination, I was at Dwlee>GL>Maria>(gap)>furtive

Unwnd asked me to explain, but I thought it made sense to drop it here

---

I feel like people are scum reading him because he repped into a 90 page, 21 player game, and then took it upon himself to read the entire game in ISO format, and then over time during that process he just started running thin on analysis because that is a big ask.

That pattern itself reminded me of my own reads list in KTaNE. The situation was different, in that I had been there the whole time, but I needed to rep out and felt like I owed it to the game to put all of my thoughts on every slot down to paper before my rep out (and then failed lmao)

I started with really detailed thoughts on my strongest town reads, supported with post links and everything. But as I worked through them, I ran out of steam / decided to instead start putting thoughts to paper from the bottom up from the reads list, only managed to get one put to paper before I gave up, and the middle of the list was basically just an uncommentated reads list.

Primary difference being that I was very explicit, while he just got shorter and shorter, with more surface level thoughts.

Spoiler:

[[I was planning on doing the whole playerlist, but god am I getting exhausted, gonna skip to the bottom and work my way up]]

Tried and failed repeatedly to get my thoughts out on Catboi. Which further exhausted me, and made me not really feel like attempting my weaker reads. So, this is what you guys get

But as I read through his spoiled post, I felt my exact mental state progression in what I was reading.

-----

I also have a gut reaction of calling it town to seeing someone putting their most detailed thoughts inside of a spoiler tag. Because putting it somewhere that it is less likely to be seen by all of the player list immediately dilutes the intend effect for scum to make such a post.

-----

I also really think that most scum would be averse to calling the king some what scummy, while also asking to be on the kingsguard, because if you actually get there, and you kill the king, you look bad. Like, I know that sorting through who did not protect the king would be more detailed then that, but I feel like the default impression of a scum player would be that doing so would "out" me and would default to... not doing that.

Especially a newer player

------

Additionally, I did actually like the analysis for a number of the more detailed reads, Especially unwnd, Titus, me, and andante.

But even some of the weaker points, are still detailed enough to make it clear he did in fact sit down and read the iso. Thinking GL and Datisi

All of this was more detailed analysis then what I saw from him in Datisi's Cafe (in which he was 3p, which I know is not the same as scum ,but I have not actually seen him as scum)

And also, way more work and analysis then he needed to put out as scum, seeing as how there were 3 dueling wagons, none of which were on him. I just... dont think that if he was scum, he would have felt the need to try to put words to every player on the list, but I can see furtive as the type of town player who would want to get started sorting through everyone all at once

----

Side note to respond to the Junko vote post, I don't think that it is at all suspicious for someone's day 1 reads list to be fully independent reads without considering the team ramifications.

[Lukewarm]

See, my thing with TSQ is they're fitting every single box I would not expect a King to do:
-They're not helping the thread much.
-Besides that case off a quick glance their reads are all over the place at best.
- Not using the exe is NAI but I think a wolf would be more likely to behave.

Now, these are all very basic level-one thoughts I'm sure anyone has thought about at least once, to the point where I think TSQ being as useless and not doing as they are is sort of villagery, mostly because they're not really a king I see around for long. They have nearly no responsibility, and are just...here? Sure, you can call this a case of TBTBAW if you squint, but I don't think that's the narrative that fits, in this case, beucase it's more "what would you expect" someone to vs what they really are doing.

@Maria, I feel like you are missing the context that TSQ is out of posts for the day, expecting a post reset from coronation phase -> elimination phase. Which is definitely hampering his presence in the main thread.

He has 210 posts in the supporter pt (the most posts) and 44 in the council pt (second most), which I realize are all where you cannot see them, but he is definitely strongly advocating for things to go his way in there.

[Lukewarm]

bruh... the not supporter PT isn't even 200 posts...

as good a reason as any to lim in the not-supporters today

limming VPB D1 is a terrible idea for the same reasons limming me D1 is a terrible idea, I don't care how much someone scumreads him, throwing away a potentially strong town player off of a paranoia read instead of pressuring and clearing out scummy slots that should be in everyone's POE first is bad mafia play.

I kinda read what you said earlier, sorry to make you upset!! I really didn't mean it <3


yeah I'm down to lim unwnd (Rhea) I think we need Firebringer to confirm he's done with day actions before ending the day though

Fire and Andres both said they submitted "provisional" actions to Pooky, so at the very least, there is something down if they day ends.

I dont think we need to wait for either of them at this point

[Lukewarm]

we all got pocketed by Datisi

I did not!

And I died for it >.<

[Lukewarm]

Jk, still not sure why I died .

But I was thinking scum for datisi, and then really really sure he was scum from the dead thread lol

[Lukewarm]

I don't think you could have written a better ending for this game then the Mad King Enchant insta executing the last scum for the win