House of the Dragon - Game Over!

[JunkoChan]

VOTE: Guiltylion

[Rhaenyra]

Actually explain me pone more time why mastina should be Queen, I'll read it I promise

Well, I won't give you a long wall, but the gist of it is that she is a competent scumhunter, in my experience. Of course, this is my experience, not anyone else's. However, just because it is my experience doesn't mean it's any less valid.

[Rhaenyra]

There is a "bank" of twenty extra posts for the entire game.

[Rhaenyra]

Want proof she's competent scumhunter? Then read this game: viewtopic.php?f=56&t=68256

[Dannflor]

GL/Lukewarm

do you feel weird at all about voting with each other

[Dannflor]

coming around to LLD being town if anyone cares

I'd support her being in a council position

[Lukewarm]

I feel like Mastina is prone to forming a read Day 1, and then it is nearly impossible to engage her about them because all she does is double down. Any counter arguments only cause her to reexplain her read over and over, and become even more sure that she was right - seeming to talk herself more into it the more she puts it into words.

(See my last game with her, where she decided that Roden was scum on like page 5, and did not relent until he died, no matter how much I town cased him as an example)

That and the fact that I have seen her be stuck in a constant catch up loop in more then one game are the primary reasons I don't want her to be the king

I feel like this was ignored by you Rhea.

And to be clear, I don't think poorly of Mastina for this. I have played lots of games with her, and keep signing up to do so again.

This tendency is not that big of a deal when she is one vote amongst many, but feeling like I could not work with her this way makes me hesitant to give her so much control.

Of course, this is my experience, not anyone else's. However, just because it is my experience doesn't mean it's any less valid.

And to be honest with you, it does not feel like you are asking for your opinion and experience with Mastina to be treated as equally valid. It feels like you are demanding that your opinion and experience be elevated over that of other peoples.

Your experience makes you want to vote her to be king || My experience make me not want to vote her to be king.

Equal treatment of those two experiences is for you to let your experience guide your vote and for me to let my experience guide my vote. But you are asking us to vote her anyways.

Which would mean

ignoring our own experience

, and

voting based off of yours

.

That is not treating them as equally valid

[Rhaenyra]

I feel like Mastina is prone to forming a read Day 1, and then it is nearly impossible to engage her about them because all she does is double down. Any counter arguments only cause her to reexplain her read over and over, and become even more sure that she was right - seeming to talk herself more into it the more she puts it into words.

(See my last game with her, where she decided that Roden was scum on like page 5, and did not relent until he died, no matter how much I town cased him as an example)

That and the fact that I have seen her be stuck in a constant catch up loop in more then one game are the primary reasons I don't want her to be the king

I feel like this was ignored by you Rhea.

And to be clear, I don't think poorly of Mastina for this. I have played lots of games with her, and keep signing up to do so again.

This tendency is not that big of a deal when she is one vote amongst many, but feeling like I could not work with her this way makes me hesitant to give her so much control.

Of course, this is my experience, not anyone else's. However, just because it is my experience doesn't mean it's any less valid.

And to be honest with you, it does not feel like you are asking for your opinion and experience with Mastina to be treated as equally valid. It feels like you are demanding that your opinion and experience be elevated over that of other peoples.

Your experience makes you want to vote her to be king || My experience make me not want to vote her to be king.

Equal treatment of those two experiences is for you to let your experience guide your vote and for me to let my experience guide my vote. But you are asking us to vote her anyways.

Which would mean

ignoring our own experience

, and

voting based off of yours

.

That is not treating them as equally valid

First of, doesn't everyone? Aren't you just as unwilling to compromise as I am? If you were willing to compromise, then someone should have been elected by now.

Second off, what is wrong with me lobbying for who I think is the best possible candidate? Sure, I may be forceful, but that is because none of you are taking my arguments into account, while expecting me to take yours into account. Consider my stance and I will consider yours, basically.

[Lukewarm]

GL/Lukewarm

do you feel weird at all about voting with each other

I did notice that he moved to Baltar after me, and I did think that it was weird. But did not really know what to make of it.

With the biggest two wagons being at 4 out of 11 votes, it is kind of hard to say where scum would or would not be willing to go imo. Even now, him simply moving his own vote to himself makes him the distinctly bigger wagon.

VPB I'm voting you largely because I'm most confident you are town and you have momentum, and I'm really curious to see who is really actively against you being King because we are getting to a stage where I find scumreading you somewhat implausible on the whole.

I also found his reasoning pretty odd given at the time that he wrote this message, he was tied for the largest wagon, and had just recently gotten there.

Meaning, if town, he *should* be thinking about the fact that he has momentum and he knows he is town, meaning he actually fits that part of the bill better then baltar does from his own PoV.

But he is not.

I get the feeling that he is actively avoiding saying he should be king even when he is tied for the largest wagon to be king, which does not sit right with me.

[ProfessorDrapion]

Farm Hook

[GuiltyLion]

VPB I'm voting you largely because I'm most confident you are town and you have momentum, and I'm really curious to see who is really actively against you being King because we are getting to a stage where I find scumreading you somewhat implausible on the whole. personally I've seen you as scum twice now and your vibes are different to me this game. I would also keep in mind there's only 4 players

actually voting you

right now, talk is cheap, votes are what matter.

Why are you considering VPB so obvtown, ignoring meta reasons?

everything he's done so far in this game seems centered around promoting a cohesive town core - and so far I've generally liked his picks/selections for that towncore. He's been transparent and exhaustive with his thought process while doing so and none of it at all has triggered any yellow/red flags for me at any step of the way. He's genuinely engaging with multiple people and encouraging new avenues of discussion while ignoring unproductive ones. None of his expressions of suspicion/scumreads have felt slimy to me at all. in a sea of noise, he's giving me the strongest vibes of someone authentically trying to steer things in a pro-town direction - other than Andres as well who I would also be fine with voting if he had a comparable wagon.

the only point I can recall that people have raised against him is possible posturing/pocketing with talking about council picks and I find that pretty uncharitable. talking about council picks is a useful thing to do, and his justification for it feels pure to me.

GL/Lukewarm

do you feel weird at all about voting with each other

like I said, Luke's vote on VPB is about the only thing he's done that I haven't had a problem with. I don't think it's necessarily town-indicative because I am one of the main counterwagons and I am calling for his head, and his 1141 seems like it'd be a pretty easy thought process to emulate as scum, but I don't feel like it's really serving a scum agenda.

(one aside, I did think his comment about being 'scared' to make LLD King was a bit odd given his stated views, and I liked Penguin asking about that)

what I think is weirder is the run of Dwlee/Penguin/Junko votes on me. that's too many people voting me but not really engaging substantively with people like LLD/Lukewarm/Andante/Datisi who have pushed back against me being King or are campaigning elsewhere.

Meaning, if town, he *should* be thinking about the fact that he has momentum and he knows he is town, meaning he actually fits that part of the bill better then baltar does from his own PoV.

But he is not.

I get the feeling that he is actively avoiding saying he should be king even when he is tied for the largest wagon to be king, which does not sit right with me.

I don't like that you assume I'm not thinking about it just because I'm not posting about it, but I otherwise kinda like this post. You're right that I'm actively avoiding advocating for myself, I just don't think that will ultimately help me (or anyone) form reads. I feel like people may interpret this as a LAMIST attitude, and frankly if I were scum I'd probably take a similar angle because it's just how I think about mafia and what I think town!me would do, buuuut it is what it is.

[Lukewarm]

First of, doesn't everyone? Aren't you just as unwilling to compromise as I am? If you were willing to compromise, then someone should have been elected by now.

I would say no, because your posting seems singularly focused. I am willing to compromise if my preferred king cannot get enough votes. Seeing as how he is the biggest wagon atm, I don't see the need to do so though lol

You seem to not care about the actual electability of the person you are advocating for.

Second off, what is wrong with me lobbying for who I think is the best possible candidate? Sure, I may be forceful, but that is because none of you are taking my arguments into account, while expecting me to take yours into account. Consider my stance and I will consider yours, basically.

I never said that advocating for Mastina to be king was bad in and of itself. You were right to make the case for the person that you wanted to be king.

The issue is that you seem to not be able to accept that other people have different experiences then you do with Mastina.

You are never going to convince me that my experiences were not what they were, just like I will never convince you that your experiences were not what they were either. -- But neither of us should have that as a goal imo

And instead, working towards finding someone that we can agree on :
-Would be a good king
-Is likely town.

You can likely sway people's opinions on whether someone is likely town, but I doubt you, or I, or anyone will ever effectively sway someone's opinion on whether another player "would be a good king" or not, because that is so incredibly subjective and based on each persons unique past experience with that player.

Basically focusing on doing so is locking yourself into an unwinnable battle.

And I wish you would instead focus on compiling a full list of people you think would be a good king and is likely town, and seeing how many of those alternatives actually have a chance to be elected.

[Datisi]

ok actually i'm gonna crash in bed, proper reading tomorrow

i will be around for some ~20 minutes as i get ready to sleep, so if anyone has any quick q's, lemme know

[Lukewarm]

I am a little scared to make LLD king

why?

Risk:Reward

I think that if a scum!LLD landed the king position, we would lose the game.

I think that if a town!LLD landed the king position, she would be effective -- but not massively noticeably more effective towards a town win condition then if she were to be in a council position or in the IC-esque position I described.

I won't stand in the way of king LLD, and can see myself compromising there if the other two look like they might lose to GL, but it kept her from being my first choice - which is what I was working out at the time.

[Lukewarm]

Luke's vote on VPB is about the only thing he's done that I haven't had a problem with. I don't think it's necessarily town-indicative because I am one of the main counterwagons and I am calling for his head

Ah yes. The good old "I need to vote for the counter election of the person scum reading me, so I am going to vote the person with 1 current vote instead of the person with 4 votes and is town reading me" strategy.

If I was primarily concerned about you being king because you scum read me, I just... vote LLD there lol

[JunkoChan]

what I think is weirder is the run of Dwlee/Penguin/Junko votes on me. that's too many people voting me but not really engaging substantively with people like LLD/Lukewarm/Andante/Datisi who have pushed back against me being King or are campaigning elsewhere.

if you want my explanation, I already said I don't want Baltar or UNO kings, so you are the only other running campaign

(this is starting to feel a lot like true elections when you have to vote for the lesser bad)

I would vote Lady Lambdadelta, but like I said before it was cool she is better in another position in the council or like luke said semi-IC in the kingsguard

[Rhaenyra]

First of, doesn't everyone? Aren't you just as unwilling to compromise as I am? If you were willing to compromise, then someone should have been elected by now.

I would say no, because your posting seems singularly focused. I am willing to compromise if my preferred king cannot get enough votes. Seeing as how he is the biggest wagon atm, I don't see the need to do so though lol

You seem to not care about the actual electability of the person you are advocating for.

Second off, what is wrong with me lobbying for who I think is the best possible candidate? Sure, I may be forceful, but that is because none of you are taking my arguments into account, while expecting me to take yours into account. Consider my stance and I will consider yours, basically.

I never said that advocating for Mastina to be king was bad in and of itself. You were right to make the case for the person that you wanted to be king.

The issue is that you seem to not be able to accept that other people have different experiences then you do with Mastina.

You are never going to convince me that my experiences were not what they were, just like I will never convince you that your experiences were not what they were either. -- But neither of us should have that as a goal imo

And instead, working towards finding someone that we can agree on :
-Would be a good king
-Is likely town.

You can likely sway people's opinions on whether someone is likely town, but I doubt you, or I, or anyone will ever effectively sway someone's opinion on whether another player "would be a good king" or not, because that is so incredibly subjective and based on each persons unique past experience with that player.

Basically focusing on doing so is locking yourself into an unwinnable battle.

And I wish you would instead focus on compiling a full list of people you think would be a good king and is likely town, and seeing how many of those alternatives actually have a chance to be elected.

Well, here is the list, from best to least best.

- mastina
- LLD
- Titus
- Me (Only by merit of knowing I am town.)

[GuiltyLion]

Luke's vote on VPB is about the only thing he's done that I haven't had a problem with. I don't think it's necessarily town-indicative because I am one of the main counterwagons and I am calling for his head

Ah yes. The good old "I need to vote for the counter election of the person scum reading me, so I am going to vote the person with 1 current vote instead of the person with 4 votes and is town reading me" strategy.

If I was primarily concerned about you being king because you scum read me, I just... vote LLD there lol

I meant more the fact that you've stuck with your vote as the wagon built - hence we are "voting together" now - despite not really seeming interested in talking to VPB about his reads at all, especially the ones you disagreed with, but go off I guess

great use of sarcasm, so town, much wow. and I'm the one spinning everything you say with scum motivation again?

[UNOwen]

everything he's done so far in this game seems centered around promoting a cohesive town core - and so far I've generally liked his picks/selections for that towncore. He's been transparent and exhaustive with his thought process while doing so and none of it at all has triggered any yellow/red flags for me at any step of the way. He's genuinely engaging with multiple people and encouraging new avenues of discussion while ignoring unproductive ones. None of his expressions of suspicion/scumreads have felt slimy to me at all. in a sea of noise, he's giving me the strongest vibes of someone authentically trying to steer things in a pro-town direction - other than Andres as well who I would also be fine with voting if he had a comparable wagon.

the only point I can recall that people have raised against him is possible posturing/pocketing with talking about council picks and I find that pretty uncharitable. talking about council picks is a useful thing to do, and his justification for it feels pure to me.

This is alarmingly unconvincing.

[Firebringer]

and I'm really curious to see who is really actively against you being King because we are getting to a stage where I find scumreading you somewhat implausible on the whole.

i am very much against VPB as king. Because he won't give me master of coin.
He also said im a peasant. Very rude.

Also no one has seemed to brought up the obvious. Lots of people are half way through their posting and we still have a whole phase after this for voting out someone. Unless everyones thoughts are "let the king just kill someone" which i disagree with.

More discussion should be on who to lim then who to be king for those getting up in post counts or conserve posts. (my god what have i become advocating for this)

In any situation my vote to lim is on
HURT: Lukewarm

[GuiltyLion]

This is alarmingly unconvincing.

alright, explain why I'm wrong then. Explain why he's scum.

[Firebringer]

lukewarm looks like fakepushing on GL btw. The more I see it the more i think GL is town.
Like super aggro for no other reason than trying to win arguments. It looks like an act. I can't imagine he believes his push and is just looking for things to call out.

Lukewarm very scummy.
Would still have him on the council though. Though i don't think master of ships is a position anymore

[JunkoChan]

and I'm really curious to see who is really actively against you being King because we are getting to a stage where I find scumreading you somewhat implausible on the whole.

i am very much against VPB as king. Because he won't give me master of coin.
He also said im a peasant. Very rude.

Also no one has seemed to brought up the obvious. Lots of people are half way through their posting and we still have a whole phase after this for voting out someone. Unless everyones thoughts are "let the king just kill someone" which i disagree with.

More discussion should be on who to lim then who to be king for those getting up in post counts or conserve posts. (my god what have i become advocating for this)

In any situation my vote to lim is on
HURT: Lukewarm

see? firebringer is town this game

anyway imagine all top posters reach the cap and then it's just mastina cathing up to bell Ydrasse and Charloux

[Lukewarm]

That last post made me want to look back at when he started "calling for my head" and noticed this

I made my post about LLD with 657

At the time, he did not seem to care about (or at least enough to comment on) LLD read at all.

Even saying

I actually mostly like Luke's townreads

But then, suddenly when he wanted to case me.

he's given me the worst vibes by far with the overly explanatory LLD townread based on (imo) flimsy justification and lacking any visible doubt/paranoia

[GuiltyLion]

At the time, he did not seem to care about (or at least enough to comment on) LLD read at all.

bruh

as an addendum thought, his long explanation of his LLD read gave me an impression of scum buddying town, I see a lot of explanation of things scum!LLD could have done instead of what she's done here, but virtually no paranoia about why she isn't scum just emulating what she thinks she would do as town. It's hard for me to put into words but it gives me a vibe of a read justification that was derived from assuming the conclusion (town!LLD) first

are you trying to act in good faith here??