House of the Dragon - Game Over!

[VP Baltar]

Furtiveglace's reads list is wild, but not in a way that I think makes him scum.

Like, reading through it, I actually think that on the whole, it makes me more inclined to think he is town then probably anything else that the slot has done.

VOTE: Dwlee

Can you explain this a bit? you said earlier you were sketched out significantly because of the speed of the wagon, right? Why dwlee now after resisting earlier?

[MariaR]

VOTE: Furtiveglance



I read this like 10 times and there's no way you get to a conclusion that me and Guiltylion are both scum together (that would be like the ultimate distancing from both of us if you actually read our interactions) and makes me think GL is actually town if you flip red

And putting me on scum list because i read mastina and andante (2 players with questionable reasoning for their reads) as possible acum in early game is bs reason to have me there

mmmmm just because you don't understand someone's reasoning, does not make them a wolf. Yes, you disagree with it but does that make Furtiveglance scum? Now, I can't judge the placements much myself, but when I was looking at the spoilers of his thoughts on people it looked good enough to me.

[MariaR]

(why?)

Why do I have you and DW at a 50/50? Well, the answer to that is obvious you're both wolfy to m-oh you want the reasoning. My bad.

Well, I looked at my hood and I didn't like much of what DW put, and while I have not played with them in ages the approaches they've taken from mere glances don't appear to be in good faith. I don't want to say it's textbook wolfy, but nothing in what they post makes me stick out and go "oh this could be from a villager"

As for you? I don't think you're partnered with DW, but your play reminds me of the game I caught you correctly in you're just sort of vibing, making a few game solvey posts that are fine at a base level but nothing that wows me. However, you are the invest role so it'd be unwise for me to vote you right now, yeah? Go invest some wolves for me. If I ever get your name wrong again feel free to bonk me on the head. I apologize.

[JunkoChan]

VOTE: Furtiveglance



I read this like 10 times and there's no way you get to a conclusion that me and Guiltylion are both scum together (that would be like the ultimate distancing from both of us if you actually read our interactions) and makes me think GL is actually town if you flip red

And putting me on scum list because i read mastina and andante (2 players with questionable reasoning for their reads) as possible acum in early game is bs reason to have me there

mmmmm just because you don't understand someone's reasoning, does not make them a wolf. Yes, you disagree with it but does that make Furtiveglance scum? Now, I can't judge the placements much myself, but when I was looking at the spoilers of his thoughts on people it looked good enough to me.

Hi Maria,

welcome to this long ass day 1, I understand that you don't see where I'm coming from because you aren't on our PT (supporter of the king PT) where I've been fighting and arguing with VP Baltar Guiltylion and datisi about their 3 way town lock and how unreal it looks, and I've pointed out countless times there why GL could be scum fmpov, so I'm having a hard to believe that this read list comes from someone who isn't pulling reads out of his ass

I would like for you to go back and read the election progression, there were 3 mayor wagons with a total of 17 players in them before we decided to vote for Shea

my argument is that one of the following has to be true

there's at least 1 scum between guiltylion and vp baltar

people in my wagon were mostly scum that thought I would be easier to control or overthrow than guiltylion or Baltar

or scum was barely voting on those 3 wagons

which one of these is more possible is up for debate

anyway I have 2 posts left so I won't be able to interact with you too much sadly.

[Lukewarm]

Furtiveglace's reads list is wild, but not in a way that I think makes him scum.

Like, reading through it, I actually think that on the whole, it makes me more inclined to think he is town then probably anything else that the slot has done.

VOTE: Dwlee

Can you explain this a bit? you said earlier you were sketched out significantly because of the speed of the wagon, right? Why dwlee now after resisting earlier?

I was never against the Dwlee wagon. They were kind of my second most preferred elimination.

Even when I was sketched out by it, I was also not interested in trying to divert it, because I could see dwlee scum and I thought that with so many people taking hard stances on it, it would be useful regardless. I was fairly content in just letting it happen, and focusing more on where to go after.

Until my scum read on GL resurged in strength + TSQ not wanting the dwlee wagon + TSQ agreeing with my scum case made me decide to go for that.

So, now that I am less sure i want to lead the town into GL, Dwlee lands back at my best bet for the day 1 elim.

[Lukewarm]

Is this what it's like to have you on my side Luke? How refreshing I'm ever so thankful that someone understood it. I was beginning to think I was speaking insanity. Do you think there's anyone I should look at as a point of interest? I'm sadly out of topics at the moment.

Your play is kind of sketching me out, but I kind of hope that we are on the same side.

It is hard to know where to point you, when a lot of your reads just came as "declaration of read"

Junko, unwnd, Titus villa nice did my part YW.

Andante Professor villa

VP ew

I don't really even have a grasp of what you have read / not read to have gotten you there.

TSQ is probably the most important person for you to get a solid read on, with him being king and all. Maybe look over his scum case on LLD too in 1807 because she is the person I am currently being advocated to be copped (maybe put thought into your suggestion for that too?)

[VP Baltar]

I was never against the Dwlee wagon. They were kind of my second most preferred elimination.

Who was your first preferred elimination at that time? You weren't voting, I believe.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Hmmm

[Lukewarm]

I was never against the Dwlee wagon. They were kind of my second most preferred elimination.

Who was your first preferred elimination at that time? You weren't voting, I believe.

GL.

I was not voting because I was accepting the dwlee elim as being the day 1 elim - so, was not pushing for it.

[Datisi]

As for you? I don't think you're partnered with DW, but your play reminds me of the game I caught you correctly in you're just sort of vibing, making a few game solvey posts that are fine at a base level but nothing that wows me. However, you are the invest role so it'd be unwise for me to vote you right now, yeah? Go invest some wolves for me. If I ever get your name wrong again feel free to bonk me on the head. I apologize.

at baltar's poking, i went to look back at this game, and i think this kind of holds... except uh, in that game that you're referencing, i was bussing pretty heavily? and now i remember you ended up asking me in that game whether i'm a lolbusser and i think you ended up misclearing me for my associates with my partner, so why are you reading me as not-partnered with dwlee here?

[VP Baltar]

Is the other group PT (non-council) still dead?

[PenguinPower]

mostly

maria popped into and was all ooohh idk what this is...but that's it.

[mastina]

Hello, so I wanna say that officially, I am wayyyy back here:

(removed, this is just to show where I would be)

...But fuck that. If you want me to respond to stuff from back then, you gotta redo it 'cause I ain't wasting my very very limited time there.

Semi-officially, I am back here:

Whenever VP Baltar has a push, that push gets a

disproportionately large support

in a disproportionately short amount of time.

Datisi wants to know what you're suggesting specifically with this argument.
I'm guessing the idea is that you think other members of the scum team are swinging behind VPB whenever he wants to do something.

I'll answer this to say that, yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

However, that said: that's still far back, may not actually bother reading all of the 12 pages.

But like.

I see GuiltyLion wagon.
I vote.

VOTE: GuiltyLion.

I will vote any of {GuiltyLion, VP Baltar, Dannflor}.
They're all equally scum to me.

(Also I said this in the PT but I wanted to say I approve of Shea's council choices; I legit think we have an all-town council and can shut the scum out, here.)

[mastina]

concerns of Junko, very abridged version:

- I don't like the way her wagon formed in direct response to the VPB justice wagon. A bunch of nully/scummy slots came out of nowhere to give it a bunch of momentum and the timing of it in the gamestate feels like scum pushed for it
- Mastina and Junko are both scumreading each other and I find it implausible in both directions. Mastina had the whole thing where she insisted scum pushed

both

VPB and Junko wagons even though that makes no sense. Then she found a convenient reason to degrade her scumread on Junko because she doesn't look partnered with VPB. Junko paid some lip service to scum!mastina idea but it kinda gave me a vibe of being forced, there's no real urgency to sell other people on that read and it doesn't seem to have integrated into the rest of her reads at this moment (see next point)
- The big thing for me at the moment is Junko's reaction in the PT when I asked TSQ not to put her on the council. Pretty much instantly she started pushing back at me, saying she thinks I'm too good of a town player to suspect her or suspect her wagon, saying that VPB and I have a "high chance" of being scum together (which felt pretty out of the blue to me since I don't remember her scumreading me prior to that, and she even +1'd a point I made about the Dwlee wagon), Datisi and I questioned her on when specifically she started thinking VPB/GL scum together and she gave dodgy replies, we asked her why she's scumreading Mastina who has been calling for VPB/GL heads all game and in response to that she said she's townreading Mastina now, I wish I could quote directly cause it feels really fake to me in how she did it and I'm honestly a bit flummoxed TSQ doesn't seem to think it's scummy at all. The whole thing gives me a strong impression that she felt she needed to discredit me literally the instant I voiced an opinion that she shouldn't be widely townread or on the council

Ironically, this post in of itself singlehandedly makes me townread Junk.

VP Baltar is mafia, of course there's will be counterwagon.

^Just sayin'.

[mastina]

I'm here, sorta.

Big mood, is me.

I wish I could not think of mastina as town

That's the problem with you being scum, you already know my alignment so you can't fake not knowing.

[mastina]

Dann I want to hear about this one, why is mastina town

Because I'm not in the scum PT with you two.

(Dann having that townread is proof he's scum btw.)

[mastina]

I generally think that executing GuiltyLion at this point is unwise unless he's very obviously scum, which when I last checked he wasn't.

You need to check more then, because GuiltyLion has been obvscum for a good 80% of the game.

[Titus]

In what universe is VP scum when he's trying to get me to engage and being fair about it?

[unwnd]

Why is Shea anime now

My dad is trying to be hip to relate with me?

[unwnd]

Andante Professor villa

I object to Professor? Please show me whatever it is you see in him

[mastina]

In what universe is VP scum when he's trying to get me to engage and being fair about it?

Glad you asked!

Why, let me share!

I realize people think my VP Baltar-scumslipped point is invalid and will likely use that to try and say my push on him is invalid.

So let me remind you of the reasons why he is scum even without that.

As for why VP Baltar: lots of things.
Calling me a good player (he absolutely should not think I am one),

I'd probably townbin andante and andres at this point. Dann and datisi are maybe in town lean territory for me. Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.
You and mastina are maybe giving me slightly bad vibes, but that could be my internal objections to anyone trying too hard to shape the day.
Off the top of my head, I think I would null pile everyone else.

Okay I can see why LLD thinks Baltar is scum. This post is v easy for scum to make and doesn't look like an actual real town spread, so much as an attempt to make an actual real town spread which is too clean/neat lacking in chaos to actually be true.

Then,

I think Rhaenyra is probably scum trying to burn through their posts so they don't have to participate later today. Prove me wrong by not posting.

You might be scum for this viewpoint tho.

The slimey push on Rhaenyra,

right now I'm feeling Dann and Datisi are okay

What about dann specifically gives you good vibes?

Their chats in the scum PT.

This looks like scum theater,
LLD's read on him with me trusting that LLD is going to have a good read there regardless of her alignment but especially as town,

And in general: nothing VP Baltar has done has looked town to me, outside of a weak random read in the rvs. Since then (and even the rvs content in hindsight given the context of the rest of the game), it has all looked like various shades of scum.

Enchant's play this game pretty much exactly matches enchants play in pictures which just finished where enchant was town, so I'm happy enough leaving them alone for now personally.

Enchant's play doesn't seem that townie actually. It's not super engaged in poking people enchant finds scummy in a real way, which they do in my experience.
I can think of one reason why maybe that's the case, but also enchant is better than this as town.

This does not look like a real thought.

Yeah I'm still voting him. I still town read him, I just didnt like that post.

Doesn't seem like it "bothers you a lot" then.

I'm pretty sure a town-VP actually tries to see this thought through, with more pushing at Shea in particular. While he can't vote Shea for elimination, it would still be possible to poke and prod at Shea to get him to actually give more nuanced thoughts--leaving just this comment with no follow-through is scum appearing to be town without actually doing something town. The whole exchange lacks purpose, but is no mere idle thought.

I get that as town not everything you do needs to have followthrough. But VP Baltar

does

follow through, in the extended exchange with Shea, yet in spite of that, this is explicitly doing nothing. It is not sorting Shea. It is not trying to get elaboration. It is just...there, for the sake of being there.

Spoiler: context behind the conclusion

The town is voting for a player to be King, largely based off of how town the player in question is.

The King is the most important decision in the game, as it sets the entirety of the game to follow.

The King literally gets to dictate

which players in the game are power roles

--don't fucking pretend that's not a huge thing.
The King gets to dictate the first player to die--which can set the tone of the entire rest of the game.

The King basically gets to set the flow for the entire rest of the game. Don't pretend this isn't true, everyone has pretty much argued this exact point in making their King choices from the getgo. A bad King sets a bad flow of the game, and a scum King sets a

scum flow

to the game.

That sounds like incentive to make a scum King to me!

And, yes, that gives scum extra incentive to try and look town.

Trying to look town, yet not actually being town, has always been one of the biggest scumtells in existence. (The buzzword these days is LAMIST tho I'm not particularly fond of that term.)

But in this game specifically,

there is extra reason for that tell to apply

.

Because while in a normal game the reward for looking town is simply to avoid being eliminated,
In this game, the reward for looking town is

to become the most important part of the game

, setting who gets what power roles and even if failing to become King, having a high chance of becoming one of the power roles and thus denying town that particular role.


And by the way: saying that I am arguing "anyone trying/succeeding to look town is suspect" is disingenous as fuck.

Players who are naturally being town, are town.

It is specifically

trying to force towniness

that is scum--and you, Dannflor, and VP Baltar are all guilty of doing exactly that.
My scumreads on you, Dannflor, and VP Baltar are because you are all being pro-scum while doing things that try to look town without actually being town.

I really don't want a VPB king, and I don't really trust him as town at all, so the sudden swing onto VPB is very alarming to me.

Hmm...

VP Baltar [7]:

Datisi, Lukewarm, Andresvmb,

GuiltyLion, Dannflor, Junkochan

, Charloux

I wonder why?

(Scum were supporting the wagon--yes, Junko not scum with VP Baltar, but the wagon had scum definitively on it and pushing for it and advocating for it.)

Also, since a few people are getting limited on posts now, myself included, I think it is a good idea for us to move forward with TSQ king asap. If someone is opposed to this, they should make a clear case for someone better. If you're not opposed, vote Shea and let's get to voting scum out. I think we have pretty thoroughly explored the avenues in the king discussion at this point.

Anyone wondering where the scum influence on voting Shea through can look no further than this, because right here, you have the main culprit behind that election.

Shea was a piss-poor selection for king. He fails the first and largest criteria for King: being universally townread.
While I

believe

Shea to be town, it was not with the conviction needed to elect him as King.
And on top of that, while I know Shea to be a competent player, he is not immune to being influenced by scum.

More than that, this argument was slimey as fuck. We had not in fact thoroughly explored the avenues in the King discussion. Shea being King was NOT something we discussed--at all. Literally at all. There was ZERO discussion about Shea. NONE. So VP Baltar was outright lying here--and y'all believed him.

So you basically think the scum are getting rolled hard here and essentially have no influence? Seems a little optimistic.

And yet, you said nothing about the opposite position (the one GL argued against), that scum have had a ton of influence.

I wonder why you haven't mentioned that possibility at all?

Could it perhaps be...that you don't want people to realize that you are the scum influencing things?

'Cause from where I'm standing it sure as fuck looks like scum have a lot of influence!

Why didn't you engage with GL arguing basically this, that scum had no influence?
Why the focus on Datisi with this belief, rather than GL with that belief?

Could it perhaps be...because Datisi is town and GL is not???

I wonder!

All of these are valid, but the crux comes from this:

Scenario 2: My reads are fucked up and scum think I would take town down a bad path

This scenario means we might benefit more from Mastina and LLD having some power.

Maybe Junko, but ugh I am unlikely to want that

. I'm more inclined to trust mastina/LLD in some type of coalition govt.

Oh hey would you look at that!

Proof of concept for me finding scum advocating for Junko to be King, in spite of having not voted there!

Junkochan [7]:

Firebringer, ProfessorDrapion, Junkochan, Rhaenyra, Enchant, PenguinPower, Unowen

GuiltyLion asked the fallacious-as-fuck "how could scum influence this when by your own reads they aren't voting there?", well guess what?

I found the fucking start of the push for Junko to be King, and it came from someone not voting Junko! Almost as if votes don't tell the whole story of what kinds of influence scum can have. Almost like so much as a single sentence from scum can set momentum towards an outcome they want!

VOTE: dwlee

Btw, let's see what VP Baltar had to say about Dwlee prior to this vote:

On dwlee, voted there because I felt like it. I don't have a scummy vibe there at this point, and I think it's pretty unlikely I follow Mastina's proposal.

Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.

Hi what have I missed

We need your ideas for who should be king and who should never have power in this game.

I could vote Andante I think she's town

I think andante is town. You think she's better Queen or on counsel. Like maybe Queen makes some sense because it really might be less power than the council.
Anyone you'd like to see in any of the other PRs specifically?

Scenario 1: Scum are getting negotiated out of power

This is a very solid town and would put scum in the group more out of power: Enchant, Uno, Dwlee, Titus, Rhae, etc.
This is a pretty rosey scenario and seems unlikely to some degree

Slight Lean Scum
{UNOwen, Enchant, Titus,

Andante

, Dwlee99, Datisi}

Interesting. Did you explain this earlier? I might have missed it.

There is ZERO mention of Dwlee being a scumread of VP Baltar.

Quite the opposite, VP Baltar mentioned Dwlee as town!

Even in the one scenario VP Baltar had Dwlee as possible scum, he described the scenario as by his own confession not very likely to be true.

And yet, VP Baltar voted Dwlee out of the gate in spite of ZERO mention of a scumread prior, and Dwlee got to what, L-2???

VP Baltar is scum.

I think it is a good idea for us to move forward with TSQ king asap. If someone is opposed to this, they should make a clear case for someone better. If you're not opposed, vote Shea and let's get to voting scum out. I think we have pretty thoroughly explored the avenues in the king discussion at this point.

Thestatusquo [11]:

Bellaphant, Dannflor, GuiltyLion, Junkochan, Unowen, VP Baltar, Andresvmb, Thestatusquo, Lukewarm, Datisi, Enchant

There was literally a 26-post difference between VP Baltar declaring "vote Shea" and Shea being elected King, over the course of less than four hours.

VOTE: dwlee

Dwlee99 [9]:

VP Baltar, Datisi, GuiltyLion, Rhaenyra, Dannflor, PenguinPower, Junkochan, Firebringer, Unowen

There is a 74-post difference between VP Baltar voting Dwlee, and Dwlee getting up to L-2.

And that was over the course of less than four hours, too.

No, seriously. Check the timestamps yourself, check the gap in time yourself.

This, from a slot that had NO STATED SCUMREAD on Dwlee prior to voting them.
And this, from someone who HE HIMSELF SAID:

So you basically think the scum are getting rolled hard here and essentially have no influence? Seems a little optimistic.

Scenario 1: Scum are getting negotiated out of power

This is a pretty rosey scenario and seems unlikely to some degree.

Scenario 2: My reads are fucked up and scum think I would take town down a bad path

TSQ could still be town in this scenario too. But he feels like he's kind of on the sidelines not trying to do much to shape the power outcome.

Have literally ANY of you checked VP Baltar's iso to check what he is doing compared to his established stances prior to that?

He's literally got zero trajectory between actions and in fact his later actions

are directly contradicting his earlier statements

.

VP Baltar is scum.

VP Baltar has zero trajectory in thought, with his later actions contradicting his earlier statements.

Whenever VP Baltar has a push, that push gets a

disproportionately large support

in a disproportionately short amount of time.

Two instances of three pages in four hours to get a wagon going he advocates for.
And a third instance of it happening in 24 hours.

VP Baltar is scum here.

[unwnd]

I feel like I answered that in the original post, what part are you not-well I guess that just leads in circles so allow me to state it another way:

Your entire post feels like you're defensive and while, that isn't nearly as bad given you're at a top wagon standpoint and being defensive is fine, it feels like you're trying to be held accountable for your posting and you're backtracking going "no but this is what happened" it's way too overly appealing for my liking. That along with this that I saw:

VOTE: Guiltylion [\v]

spicy… I’m down with this lim, like deciding to show up right as we started voting? Like days ago Luke said he was waiting on GL to respond to something, yet instantly showing up after being voted? This isn’t the town GL I remember.
(also I like this wagon more than “limming X for not talking”)

??????

I have a life Andante

I didn't "decide" to show up at any particular strategic time, I spent my Sunday watching the Ravens and then the rest of the day with my wife.

Yesterday I had work, and then I spent some time playing games with my friends before playing very briefly in the evening and then for a bit before bed.

This post is actually a really shitty reason to vote me and is accusing me of tactically lurking which is a low move and makes the game unpleasant.

Especially since it's not like I haven't been around.

Was enough for me to vote you and before you say "what's wrong with that post" because I can already tell. It's the fact you're trying to mix in the ate as a discredit attempt for the post. Like, I believe that you're upset for being voted, but you're just over using it in an attempt to get votes off you. I've seen how Ate is used as a wolf and this pings the fuck out of me.

I believe you have this read but your tone is a bit 'extra' to me

Are you just spiteful cause of what happened in that normal

[unwnd]

GL, I've been (mostly) a fan of your output this game. I'd consider it measured and easy to follow, but I definitely feel like there was..some sort of crack when Maria poked you. Like the mask slipped for a second. I swear all the fucking time, but I feel like you overreacted to her pressure a little bit. I don't get why her in particular set you off.

[unwnd]

Maybe maria's words just dig that deep and her extra tone is enough to make even a Lion a Scaredy Lion

[furtiveglance]

@furtive - if you are null and conflicted on TSQ, why do you want to be on Kingsguard?

Because if they are town I can protect them