House of the Dragon - Game Over!

[Lukewarm]

What?

Literally you are arguing that scum titus would be trying to enact her agenda on who gets to be king and therefore she is town.

In order for that to be a logical statement you would have to also be asserting that the town titus would not be doing this, otherwise there is no difference?

My assertion is that an engaged titus would be doing this as either alignment, and I think this is pretty obviously true.

I agree she is not doing this, but until you can express why you think she wouldn't be doing it as town, its a pretty nonsensical reason to town read someone, bordering on TMI.

It's so surface level to pick out a difference in two worlds and then jump right to alignment related reasons for that difference without considering whether that difference is actually explained by alignment.

And here it's just clearly not?

You are forcing it into a dicotomy that is not how I am thinking about it. And then asking me why I would support such a dicotomy.

My thoughts are that her approach does not feel like she is approaching this with a pre planned agenda that she is working towards.

"Scum player would try to make good for scum things happen but town player wouldn't try to make good for town things happen in the same circumstances"

Reframing it as "but town player wouldn't try to make good for town things happen" you completely divorced it from my own thinking.

Because I never said that Titus was not doing anything that could be her attempting to make good things happen for the town.

On the contrary, her comments on wanting there to be two large wagon dueling fits in line with something that I think that town!Titus believes, which is : "having dueling wagons and watching where people land as the vanity wagons start to dissipate creates valuable information with which to sort and discern players alignments. "

And she appears to be working more towards creating such a scenario then attempting to get any particular person elected.

[Firebringer]

as far as people u have addressed for having scumreads on u outside of GL the only other time was sort of (not really) with datisi and that was in response to u calling datisi scum. Ill count this as 2.

Two questions thrown into this game was 495 and 96 and the second is just asking someone if they want to be king.

do i need to go back and examine what LLD was saying on why Luke is town.

[Lukewarm]

Anyways one thing crossed my mind as i went through the skim, i don't see an opinion on shea.

I do not really have very strong thoughts on him tbh, which is why I have not really mentioned him.

I had him down as a slight town read. I had not seen anything that set off any alarm bells, saw a couple posts that I remember having good vibes, and then I saw LLD had him as town, so I just kind of put that it away.

Maybe you can elaborate ur position there because fmpov if i were u, i would be using this engagement with him to get a read if u don't have one. Feels like you have unspoken read there by way u handle this interaction.

This engagement has just been frustrating, and maybe I can look back at it to think about an alignment, but in the moment all I am seeing is that I am frustrated by it.

another thing is i find it strange and I def don't think this is how u play but there was a lack of questions from u at players. You explained and gave plenty of thoughts on posts but i don't think i could find a question to get insight into a player once. Could have missed them but i was like "wait where are questions if he is sorting players".

I am being fairly upfront with the fact that I am not able to dedicate the amount of time and energy that I normally can bring to games.

Staying constantly read up, pushing the things that I feel most strongly about, and responding when people say something directed at me is frankly all I am really able to manage at the moment. And if anything, the fact that I am still right now responding to stuff is more time then I should be putting into is, seeing as it is 4 am right now.

If me having to priorize my focus during the early stages of this game result in people thinking I am scum, then I guess that will be that.

[Lukewarm]

priorize my focus during the early stages of this game

Like this exact conversation is about why I am not engaging more with responding to and casing out my 4th place scum lean.

And why have I not put more words into my 7th weakest town lean.

And the answer is just... those are not really my priority with my time that I can exist in this game.

And if you expect those to be more fleshed out from me, then I will almost certainly be failing to meet those expectations.

[Firebringer]

Luke/Bella for scum team at the moment.

In historic tradition of pooky games this has been a long time coming but it is time for me call out the scum team.
i usually do this hipfire style in the first like 20 pages. I wonder how it will be now its like page 56.

So in theme of the game each scum will be a dragon.
Luke - Balerion
Bellaphant - Arrax
UNOwen - Sunfyre
Dwlee99 - Vermax
Dannflor - Vhagar

of those dannflor is my spicy read of someone who felt town earlier but wouldn't be surprised if wrong. Dwlee99 is my lazy read that is probably town.

[Firebringer]

priorize my focus during the early stages of this game

Like this exact conversation is about why I am not engaging more with responding to and casing out my 4th place scum lean.

And why have I not put more words into my 7th weakest town lean.

And the answer is just... those are not really my priority with my time that I can exist in this game.

And if you expect those to be more fleshed out from me, then I will almost certainly be failing to meet those expectations.

i do not expect fleshed out reads. i don't think asking questions is a time commitment compared to how much thoughts uve already expressed. I just don't see sorting here.

Go to bed tho dude

[Lukewarm]

i do not expect fleshed out reads. i don't think asking questions is a time commitment compared to how much thoughts uve already expressed. I just don't see sorting here.

Go to bed tho dude

My comment was not supposed to be about you asking about my read, it was in more in response to you saying I was not out interrogating people or responding to every thing that I could possibly respond to (which, to be fair, they are both things that I usually do).

But also I am tired, and that may not have been worded in a way that made that clear.

Anyways. I am going to sleep now for real

(I also feel like I have been sorting, and vocal about my reads on many slots)

[Datisi]

so i brought my laptop with me to uni so that i can play mafia during class breaks

responses that i owe to andres: 866 - i actually was reading your other content, i said i liked you and thought you were townie in your early exchange with ladylambdadelta. and i'm not saying you, as scum in that one game, were hesitating on me in a strategic way. that's a big thing, i don't think it was strategic, i think scum-you struggles to convincingly show that you're reading my alignment as you usually do so you go to the softer, toned down reads. could it be strategically better for scum-you to try to pocket me? maybe, i don't know, i don't think scum always plays perfectly strategically so i don't think that's an argument worth making.

868 - i don't mind drawing parallels to other games, hell i do it all the time obviously. but it ties to what i've written above, it read as a hesitation to make a read of my alignment, and you instead of resorting to making reads *around* my alignment.

870 - do you think the content you've produced by now (or by this post ig) is out of your scumrange? and that i should know that?

---

mastina is probably town? i'm finally reading her posts around page 42. i have no clue why she's reading half the people the way she is reading them, but that seems on par for the course. i'd ask (in layman terms!!!) for explanations of the dannflor, dwlee, enchant reads, but like idk if there's a point lol

---

oh no i think 1065 is townie.

also there's this one neuron in my brain that's saying that guiltylion saw he was losing support for king, saw this read of andres, and decided to pivot to a townread of me for ~mysterious~ reasons that were only explained later; and that that's why he answered my question about his read on me in a "why am i so low" way, like he suddenly forgot he0s been saying nothing but negative things about me and has to pretend to townread me (i told the neuron to shut up for the time being)

---

in a vacuum, i don't really like junko's pivots and "shading" @andante, but i actually think it's kind of townie? or like, it doesn't make sense from a scum perspective. because i think by this point it has been said so many times how town-andante has weird read changes and how she's prone to omgus and how she has such weird posts and how that is Town... and scum-junko decides to attack her over it? like, what is scum-junko expecting to achieve here?

---

having very recently experienced a scum-baltar game, i am REALLY struggling to imagine him being scum this game (especially as in the signups thread he said he was gonna lurk this game, and i think scum-him would try to use that as an excuse or cover to post less... reads and takes and questioning, but he isn't, so)

---

i gotta stop here, i did not get very far but i am planning to have a proper readslist tonight, hopefully

[Datisi]

You and Luke are on two sides of the same coin, doing 2 different things with your concern and understanding of me but at least in my mind Luke is nailed down with a reasoning that checked out from our prior experience from my PoV. You are just waving in a general area and not attempting to read me at all, only by proxy of discrediting Luke have you given any alignment on me.

did you read my thoughts on why his read on you is off? do you think that town-luke should be townreading you for that stuff? (this one i'm assuming is a yes since you think he's town, but my main q then is why?)

1161 is making me think i really need to remove that one neuron from before, this is another example of guiltylion elaborating on his reads in a like... lucid and logical way that i really like? i'll take a look at that one scumgame of his tonight ig but yeah

ok my friend is here and i have class starting in 10, later

[JunkoChan]

@LLD
@UNOWen
@Andante
@Junko
@Firebringer
@ProfessorDrapion
@Titus
@mastina
@Rhaenyra

should I assume this is who you think is most likely town?

[Enchant]

No.

[JunkoChan]

I am willing to support the following king votes:
4. Andresvmb
11. GuiltyLion
12. Firebringer
17. Junkochan

There's a couple more names on there that are on the periphery or I wouldn't be THAT unhappy about, but this is my list.

Baltar is currently tied with me, so if you don't have him as you king options, you should join us

[JunkoChan]

No.

cool beans

[Enchant]

No.

cool beans

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Flavor

Queen Visenya Targaryen was the older sister and wife of King Aegon I Targaryen, the first Lord of the Seven Kingdoms. Her younger sister, Rhaenys, was married to Aegon as well. Visenya was a dragonrider, and rode the dragon Vhagar.

Like her siblings, Visenya possessed the classical Valyrian features: long, silver-gold hair, which she often braided or bound up in rings, and purple eyes. Hers was a harsher, more austere beauty than her sister, Rhaenys. A voluptuous, sensual, and passionate woman, Visenya was also stern, serious, and unforgiving. Some claimed that Visenya dabbled in dark sorceries and played with poisons.

Visenya was both a dragonrider and a warrior, comfortable in both silk and in ringmail. When garbed as a warrior, she always wielded the Valyrian steel longsword Dark Sister.

Coronation Vote - Day One

With twenty one players alive - it requires eleven votes to make a decision. Plurality rules will apply at the deadline.

VP Baltar [6]:

Datisi, Lukewarm, Andresvmb, GuiltyLion, Dannflor, Charloux

Junkochan [6]:

Firebringer, ProfessorDrapion, Junkochan, Rhaenyra, Enchant, Titus

GuiltyLion [4]:

thestatusquo, Dwlee99, PenguinPower, VP Baltar

Andante [2]:

mastina, Andante

Unowen [1]:

Unowen

Thestatusquo [1]:

Bellaphant

Lady Lambdadelta [1]:

Lady Lambdadelta

not voting [0]:

Deadline:

(expired on 2022-11-19 23:48:35)

mod note

datisi - vla wed/thurs always
I do everything by hand so please pm me if I miss something.

[PenguinPower]

VOTE: junko

[UNOwen]

UNOwen - Sunfyre

Sunfyre is the best dragon, so this does make sense.

UNVOTE: UNOwen
VOTE: Junkochan

[UNOwen]

prob town? wouldn't lim today, maybe a deep wolf in here that I don't think I'd catch with no info and no flips

: {Andante}

What's the story here?

[Titus]

Junko's ahead

UNVOTE: Junko

[Andresvmb]

What?

Literally you are arguing that scum titus would be trying to enact her agenda on who gets to be king and therefore she is town.

In order for that to be a logical statement you would have to also be asserting that the town titus would not be doing this, otherwise there is no difference?

My assertion is that an engaged titus would be doing this as either alignment, and I think this is pretty obviously true.

I agree she is not doing this, but until you can express why you think she wouldn't be doing it as town, its a pretty nonsensical reason to town read someone, bordering on TMI.

It's so surface level to pick out a difference in two worlds and then jump right to alignment related reasons for that difference without considering whether that difference is actually explained by alignment.

And here it's just clearly not?

You are forcing it into a dicotomy that is not how I am thinking about it. And then asking me why I would support such a dicotomy.

My thoughts are that her approach does not feel like she is approaching this with a pre planned agenda that she is working towards.

"Scum player would try to make good for scum things happen but town player wouldn't try to make good for town things happen in the same circumstances"

Reframing it as "but town player wouldn't try to make good for town things happen" you completely divorced it from my own thinking.

Because I never said that Titus was not doing anything that could be her attempting to make good things happen for the town.

On the contrary, her comments on wanting there to be two large wagon dueling fits in line with something that I think that town!Titus believes, which is : "having dueling wagons and watching where people land as the vanity wagons start to dissipate creates valuable information with which to sort and discern players alignments. "

And she appears to be working more towards creating such a scenario then attempting to get any particular person elected.

Luke to be honest I don’t like this exchange with TSQ from you. I understand TSQ’s criticism. You may be fundamentally right - Titus could be Town, and could be disinterested as Town, and would maybe put more effort as Scum to get their desired result. But you phrased it as though only Scum would approach the selection of King with an “agenda”, and I don’t agree. I’m interpreting agenda to mean having a specific objective in mind with your questions and posts. But we subconsciously do this regardless of alignment. I think of the Scum more in strategic terms (they know everyone’s alignment, they see roughly who is bonding with who, who is skeptical of who, who has decent reads, who doesn’t), and they shape their pushes and arguments in that context. But let’s not pretend for a second that Town that reads someone as Scum for instance wouldn’t come out with posts that are highly critical of that player’s content or tries to fight them on their reads (above others they are more neutral about) because I mean I do this and I know others definitely do.

Titus could be disinterested as Town or Scum, but given the stakes related to the selection of King, maybe they are less likely to be Scum if they’re not actively trying to make things happen. But as you stated, not only is this not strictly true, I would argue that their catch-up was an attempt at getting the obvious out of the way (I need reads, I haven’t shared them, people need to think I’m reading) so that they may influence what’s going on without coming across as not at least haven’t caught up.

Contrast that with the behavior of the Professor. Now THAT is what I would argue is Town that doesn’t care, is openly stating they haven’t read, and has had one interaction with Andante for instance that I can totally understand the reaction (Andante’s claim there that the Professor had gone silent and that it was a bad luck when they were still posting is a bad look and there’s no way to spin that). In fact, that exchange makes me really question my read of Andante.

[Andresvmb]

@Datisi, yeah I think I’m solidly out of my Scum range to be honest, and I do think you might be able to have a sense for it.

[Andresvmb]

But I think I fundamentally disagree that the idea should to "either name king, and let king do all of the PR naming without other people's input OR democracy all positions" so I am not surprised at all to see VP giving input on the roles, and dont view it as "undercutting".

It's good that you disagree with that idea, I disagree with it too. There

is

an in between and I'm not saying whoever becomes king should rule by dictat. But there's a difference between giving input and giving instruction.

If you're trying to build a consensus before your proposal for king has even started discussing it, you are going to in effect be putting pressure on them to conform to whatever council the majority (or VPB + whoever else he got to participate in council decisions) wants. In which case you are undercutting the kings power. Since the objective is to put competent town on the throne, it seems like this would be more desirable for scum.

Sigh I agree with this.

[Lukewarm]

But you phrased it as though only Scum would approach the selection of King with an “agenda”, and I don’t agree. I’m interpreting agenda to mean having a specific objective in mind with your questions and posts.

No. I didn't.

Town can have agendas, and I never said other wise.

I mean, I actively had the agenda to keep GL from getting the kingship, because I think he is scum.

Constantly being misinterpreted by every player in this game is kind of frustrating.


I said that I don't see her working with a "pre-planned agenda". With a scum agenda. With one where she started with an end goal figured out before she started posting.

Actually every time the word Agenda has appeared in my iso, compiled for your viewing pleasure:

Spoiler:

She does not seem to be actively working towards a

pre-thought out

agenda.

I would expect her to be actively working towards a

pre-thought out

agenda if she were scum.

Then where I responded to a TSQ post

Why do you think town players don't have an agenda?

That is not my position at all, so not planning to defend the argument that you are putting there.

My thoughts are that her approach does not feel like she is approaching this with a pre planned agenda that she is working towards.

So once again "town would not have a goal behind their posts" and "town would not be working towards a town wincon" are not, and never have been, my position.

[Andresvmb]

Like the way I responded to UNO initially (I think it was UNO), I wanted those that I TR to give input on say my theoretical selections (and I would encourage anyone that’s potentially headed for King to listen to those they trust), but I don’t think I would open it up entirely for democracy either. As in, I don’t think I would want everyone I TR to simply dictate what I do and that be that. Because then, what’s the fun?

I’m also going to say that I don’t think trusting that the Hand of the King can check players is all that helpful if we pick a Scum King. I haven’t quite figured out in my mind whether it’s more often than not that a Scum King picks a Scum Hand (or someone they’ve been able to pocket successfully), but I’m inclined to think it’s more likely.

[ProfessorDrapion]

It’s funny cause I don’t see Luke Talking about VP in this post nor Junko and just GL.


So Luke I ask you why are you against my proposal to have Junko as Queen?
Even if they are a wolf they aren’t capable of applying much thread manipulation where as VP is.