Newbie 1428 Game Over

[Grimgroove]

/confirm

[Grimgroove]

I am honoured!

I also want to be the first person to vote you on this website, thus forging a bond that not even the fires of hell could break.

VOTE: pieguyn

It is done!

[Grimgroove]

Oh my God, you're right!

VOTE: Ravenpaw

[Grimgroove]

They both seem to want to exclaim pointless stuff as if it made actual sense.

No u.

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: Michael_Wolf

This is page 2. No more time for funny business.

I think Michael_Wolf is scum. He used the word "turf". Only hoodlums use that word.

[Grimgroove]

Anyway I think one of these quotes does actually belong to scum. They both seem to want to exclaim pointless stuff as if it made actual sense.

Facetiousness has many values to it, and when combined with rvs, I felt that there was scum motivation in why those posts happened in that manner. This is what would be known as a gut read at this stage.

Everything is serious, we're up against the mafia in a life or death situation. Getting too much joking happening, just lets scum control the town.

DOES NOT COMPUTE!

First you say you thought those RVS's were fishy because they exclaim pointless stuff

as if it made actual sense

. The bolded part means that you thought those posts were fishy,b ecause they were invoking silly reasons as serious ones. So the seriousness that you saw was the problem.

But now that everyone has made clear that your comedy-radar needs fixing, you proclaim it's not the seriousness that is scummy, but the facetiousness (whoever came up with that word should be able to spell "merely" by the way, cfr. BigTerp) and the joking, that are suddenly tactical instruments for scum to gain control.

In other words, he doesn't care about the stick he's using, he already picked out the dogs he's going to try and beat down.

I would vote, but yes, L-1, and at this point things could get too confusing, but: CheeryDog.

[Grimgroove]

You click the "Q+" button of every post you want to quote, and click "Reply", and you'll see all the quotes you wanted, in the order that you clicked them.

[Grimgroove]

UNVOTE:

[Grimgroove]

@Grim- What are your thoughts on Bigterp so far?

He's beginning to sound very nervous over matters that are trivial. His read on Cheery Dog in post 59 feels as if proclaimed by someone being choked to death, gasping for air.


What are your thoughts on Dyslexicon, Ravenpaw?

[Grimgroove]

What are the trivial matters that he sounds nervous over?
And you didn’t actually give a stance on Bigterp in the above response, so what do you read him as?

His read on Cheery Dog, his stance on early L-1 and L-2's.

You asked me for my thoughts and I gave them. You didn't ask for a "stance". My only stance is that I think he sounds nervous, which is possibly a scumtell, but not necessarily. I've seen people before who considered themselves easy targets, and people with that mindset tend to get nervous more easily, regardless of alignment. Remember Candillan? I'm sure you do.

[Grimgroove]

Oh, missed that:
@Ravenpaw:
And the reason I asked about Dyslexicon is 1. to pull you out of your unilateral questioning-status and 2. because I think he made the most memorable action of the first two pages and should be worth everyone's consideration.
His vote showed a certain carelessness that I'd associate with a town-mindset rather than a scummy one, but his reaction to when he finds out he put someone at L-1 sounded a bit too off-hand.

[Grimgroove]

Highlighting certain parts works with the normal quote button, but not the multi-quote.

Wow! I never knew

[Grimgroove]

Could be, but Cheery, myself and Dyslexi were all pushing you for answers, and that discussion has been good for creating more information and getting us away from RVS. If you are town I’d say that Grim’s and Pie’s reaction to you were the most scum like. Both gave general blanket statements about why you’re suspicious, yet made no move to vote you or try to scumhunt you to extrapolate more information. That is pretty scummy from my pov and it should be from yours too if you’re town.

Don't give yourself too much towncred. Like I said before, you have assumed a position of unilateral questioning where you ask a barrage of questions to everyone in a seemingly, and I'd say obviously, random way. While the effort is applaudable, juxtaposting your inquisitive behavior with my observational one as one being town and one being scum is too easy. Anyone can ask questions, what is truly important is the leap from those questions to an actual case. Suffice to say I do not like your leap.

Tell me, what three questions that asked were by you of the most help to you, and should be of particular help to all of us, and why?

I see for instance you asked me for "my thoughts" on BigTerp, a question that I answered with an observation of his nervousness. You skillfully (and from my PoV I'd say: maliciously) skew this into me making "blanket statements", but tell me, is there anything disagreeable with my statement that BigTerp is acting nervous? And that nervousness is a nulltell?

[Grimgroove]

His read on Cheery Dog, his stance on early L-1 and L-2's.

How is Big giving his read on Cheery a trivial matter?
And can you quote exactly the nervous parts of those posts please.[/quote]

Reads in the beginning of the game are trivial because they per definition rely on gut, and it is very easy to backpedal out of them if you need to because of that.

"Nervousness" can't really be quoted, and certainly not exactly and in parts. It's an atmosphere created by the totality of words. His post 58 starts with an apologetic acquiescence, which shows a feeling of inferiority, in turn showing a feeling of nervousness. This is followed by an unnatural dissertation on the difference between L-2 and L-1. First he insists on the two being very different, then he reverts a bit by saying he doesn't mind either of them, but then after the comma exclaims more fondness for L-2, distancing himself yet again from L-1. I see no need for this distancing, yet he does, meaning it's an emotional response. Why give an emotional response over something so trivial? Nervousness.
In 59 with his read on Cheery Dog, there's just too many "but"'s. This transparent second-guessing does not give an air of calmness.

You asked me for my thoughts and I gave them. You didn't ask for a "stance".

Oh come on, really? It should've been obvious when asking for thoughts that it implied what your position was on them.

My position was the he seemed nervous. This wasn't good enough for you, but it is what I was thinking, so I answered your question right from the start as far as I'm concerned.

My only stance is that I think he sounds nervous, which is possibly a scumtell, but not necessarily. I've seen people before who considered themselves easy targets, and people with that mindset tend to get nervous more easily, regardless of alignment.

So he's null to you?

Yes.

Oh, missed that:
@Ravenpaw:
And the reason I asked about Dyslexicon is 1. to pull you out of your unilateral questioning-status

This is a weird reason.

I disagree. I would like to avoid a situation where someone positions themselves as a townleader through questioning rather than through answering.

and 2. because I think he made the most memorable action of the first two pages and should be worth everyone's consideration.
His vote showed a certain carelessness that I'd associate with a town-mindset rather than a scummy one, but his reaction to when he finds out he put someone at L-1 sounded a bit too off-hand.

Hmm I guess I can see that, but his other posts have been good, you agree/disagree?

I disagree. You're going to ask "Why?" now, aren't you? In post 32 he succesfully switched from the defensive stance to the attacking one, but the latter still feels more like a first line of defense rather than a true scumhunt.

Also Grim, why aren’t you voting?

I haven't got a clear preference right now, I was considering voting Cheery Dog after my "sticks and dogs"-post, but I didn't feel it warranted an L-1.
I will apply pressure as soon as I do have a preference.

[Grimgroove]

The bolded thing was a tongue-in-cheeck reference to the question-stream-style Ravenpaw adopts.

I will get back to you later on your other questions.

[Grimgroove]

catching up tomorrow

[Grimgroove]

The bolded thing was a tongue-in-cheeck reference to the question-stream-style Ravenpaw adopts.

Lol, okay darling

Didn't mean to be mean, just so you know. I don't really have problems with your playstyle as such, but in this case your questions, the sheer amount of them, is so overwhelming it occupies most of the people's time. Time isn't endless. All the time spent on answering to your walls with walls, is time not spent on hunting scum. The walls themselves provide another hurdle to do as such.

Now I am the last who should be complaining about walls, but I do try to keep some form of overview, be it through reads list, some general conclusion... Yet I don't see you do that. You ask 100 questions, and based on the 100 answers, you ask 200 more questions. Out of the answers you get you make a selection, you make a read, but it is very, very difficult to follow it all. If you're town, it would help us, and yourself, a lot to make some post where your main findings are summarized + main and secondary reasons for those findings.

Banksys Flareon put it much more eloquently (and shorter) than I could, and I agree with her statement wholeheartedly. I too, think you're scum. The accusations you've put forward so far seem meaningless. This is something i could not get from your interactions with others (due to the enormous amount of reading this involves), but your interactions with me. The way you ALWAYS add a question of your own when you answer a question of mine comes off as extremely defensive, and is very tiring for anyone who wants to interogate you. Despite you saying you love answering questions, this is not the impression you're giving me.

[Grimgroove]

I'm still catching up with other goings-on, there might be something more vote-worthy. I'll have voted within 24 hours from now.

[Grimgroove]

I think the only way to get through this thread is to get high. BRB.

[Grimgroove]

ravenpaw is scum

VOTE: Ravenpaw[/quote]

I'll explainj tomorrow.

[Grimgroove]

:DD.D

KIK

[Grimgroove]

I see nothing in your most recent wall worth responding to.

I love this person

[Grimgroove]

I see nothing in your most recent wall worth responding to. You seen comfortable with an OMGUS strategy, so I'll let the rest of the town decide what they think of that.

However, since this is a newbie game, and you are clearly a newbie, I will explain some mafia theory to you.

It is anti town to explain town reads (some people refuse to give them at all) because it gives scum information as to how to appear town in this specific game. It doesnt help us scum hunt. Town reads are meaningless and easily changed. All they serve to do is create clutter, meaningless content in which scum can hide and participate. "Posting content is good!" is the eternal cry of all newbies who don't know what the fuck they're talking about. Any player, scum or otherwise, can post lots of content and be a little angel of organization and helpfulness. You are not that, but you seem to be trying to be.

As far as your OMGUS vote and my lack of having called you "he," you do what you think is best. I distinctly remember calling you he at some point, but if I didn't I guess you'd better lynch me.

@Cat Clancer: We don't need two idiots. Reread.

:DDDD

[Grimgroove]

I see nothing in your most recent wall worth responding to.

I love this person

Says the guy who says it's scummy to ask a lot of questions and not provide a thorough follow up on them every time.

Grim bus your buddy.

I was a bit under the influence when saying that, but I must admit I rather appreciate Banksys style, she seems to be able to put things very eloquently. Rudish, but not too much. Brings in some spice!

Could you expand on your last sentence?

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: Ravenpaw

[Grimgroove]

I see nothing in your most recent wall worth responding to.

I love this person

Says the guy who says it's scummy to ask a lot of questions and not provide a thorough follow up on them every time.

Grim bus your buddy.

I was a bit under the influence when saying that, but I must admit I rather appreciate Banksys style, she seems to be able to put things very eloquently. Rudish, but not too much. Brings in some spice!

See it's comments like this that is making you look like her buddy Grim.
You are saying that calling people idiots is being eloquent?

Of course not. If she called you an idiot, then it would not be getting my support, because you are clearly not. But it's just nice (with a lack for better words) to see someone express thoughts on your playstyle (?) that are exactly like my thoughts. That's what I was getting at with your unilateral questioning-thing. I feel B

Could you expand on your last sentence?

It’s pretty obvious isn’t it? Banksy is scum (<- this I am very confident on) and your support of her, and weird attacks on my playstyle are making me read you as her buddy. And you do realise that all of your game related posts since #8 through to this one here #23 have either been a response to me or about me, right? It makes me wonder what you'd be doing without your muse here.

And Grim you never responded to my reply of your question here:

Tell me, what three questions that asked were by you of the most help to you, and should be of particular help to all of us, and why?

You have repeatedly said that I’m not doing enough with my questions, but you did exactly nought with this. Pot meet kettle?

I'm still waiting for that case of yours btw, come on man don't leave me hanging [/quote]

[Grimgroove]

I see nothing in your most recent wall worth responding to.

I love this person

Says the guy who says it's scummy to ask a lot of questions and not provide a thorough follow up on them every time.

Grim bus your buddy.

I was a bit under the influence when saying that, but I must admit I rather appreciate Banksys style, she seems to be able to put things very eloquently. Rudish, but not too much. Brings in some spice!

See it's comments like this that is making you look like her buddy Grim.
You are saying that calling people idiots is being eloquent?

Of course not. If she called you an idiot, then it would not be getting my support, because you are clearly not. But it's just nice (with a lack for better words) to see someone express thoughts on your playstyle (?) that are exactly like my thoughts. That's what I was getting at with your unilateral questioning-thing. I feel B

Could you expand on your last sentence?

It’s pretty obvious isn’t it? Banksy is scum (<- this I am very confident on) and your support of her, and weird attacks on my playstyle are making me read you as her buddy. And you do realise that all of your game related posts since #8 through to this one here #23 have either been a response to me or about me, right? It makes me wonder what you'd be doing without your muse here.

And Grim you never responded to my reply of your question here:

Tell me, what three questions that asked were by you of the most help to you, and should be of particular help to all of us, and why?

You have repeatedly said that I’m not doing enough with my questions, but you did exactly nought with this. Pot meet kettle?

I'm still waiting for that case of yours btw, come on man don't leave me hanging [/quote]

[Grimgroove]

I see nothing in your most recent wall worth responding to.

I love this person

Says the guy who says it's scummy to ask a lot of questions and not provide a thorough follow up on them every time.

Grim bus your buddy.

I was a bit under the influence when saying that, but I must admit I rather appreciate Banksys style, she seems to be able to put things very eloquently. Rudish, but not too much. Brings in some spice!

See it's comments like this that is making you look like her buddy Grim.
You are saying that calling people idiots is being eloquent?

Of course not. If she called you an idiot, then it would not be getting my support, because you are clearly not. But it's just nice (with a lack for better words) to see someone express thoughts on your playstyle (?) that are exactly like my thoughts. That's what I was getting at with your unilateral questioning-thing. I feel B

Could you expand on your last sentence?

It’s pretty obvious isn’t it? Banksy is scum (<- this I am very confident on) and your support of her, and weird attacks on my playstyle are making me read you as her buddy. And you do realise that all of your game related posts since #8 through to this one here #23 have either been a response to me or about me, right? It makes me wonder what you'd be doing without your muse here.

And Grim you never responded to my reply of your question here:

Tell me, what three questions that asked were by you of the most help to you, and should be of particular help to all of us, and why?

You have repeatedly said that I’m not doing enough with my questions, but you did exactly nought with this. Pot meet kettle?

I'm still waiting for that case of yours btw, come on man don't leave me hanging [/quote]

[Grimgroove]

I see nothing in your most recent wall worth responding to.

I love this person

Says the guy who says it's scummy to ask a lot of questions and not provide a thorough follow up on them every time.

Grim bus your buddy.

I was a bit under the influence when saying that, but I must admit I rather appreciate Banksys style, she seems to be able to put things very eloquently. Rudish, but not too much. Brings in some spice!

See it's comments like this that is making you look like her buddy Grim.
You are saying that calling people idiots is being eloquent?

Of course not. If she called you an idiot, then it would not be getting my support, because you are clearly not. But it's just nice (with a lack for better words) to see someone express thoughts on your playstyle (?) that are exactly like my thoughts. That's what I was getting at with your unilateral questioning-thing. I feel B

Could you expand on your last sentence?

It’s pretty obvious isn’t it? Banksy is scum (<- this I am very confident on) and your support of her, and weird attacks on my playstyle are making me read you as her buddy. And you do realise that all of your game related posts since #8 through to this one here #23 have either been a response to me or about me, right? It makes me wonder what you'd be doing without your muse here.

And Grim you never responded to my reply of your question here:

Tell me, what three questions that asked were by you of the most help to you, and should be of particular help to all of us, and why?

You have repeatedly said that I’m not doing enough with my questions, but you did exactly nought with this. Pot meet kettle?

I'm still waiting for that case of yours btw, come on man don't leave me hanging [/quote]

[Grimgroove]

I see nothing in your most recent wall worth responding to.

I love this person

Says the guy who says it's scummy to ask a lot of questions and not provide a thorough follow up on them every time.

Grim bus your buddy.

I was a bit under the influence when saying that, but I must admit I rather appreciate Banksys style, she seems to be able to put things very eloquently. Rudish, but not too much. Brings in some spice!

See it's comments like this that is making you look like her buddy Grim.
You are saying that calling people idiots is being eloquent?

Of course not. If she called you an idiot, then it would not be getting my support, because you are clearly not. But it's just nice (with a lack for better words) to see someone express thoughts on your playstyle (?) that are exactly like my thoughts. That's what I was getting at with your unilateral questioning-thing. I feel B

Could you expand on your last sentence?

It’s pretty obvious isn’t it? Banksy is scum (<- this I am very confident on) and your support of her, and weird attacks on my playstyle are making me read you as her buddy. And you do realise that all of your game related posts since #8 through to this one here #23 have either been a response to me or about me, right? It makes me wonder what you'd be doing without your muse here.

And Grim you never responded to my reply of your question here:

Tell me, what three questions that asked were by you of the most help to you, and should be of particular help to all of us, and why?

You have repeatedly said that I’m not doing enough with my questions, but you did exactly nought with this. Pot meet kettle?

I'm still waiting for that case of yours btw, come on man don't leave me hanging [/quote]

[Grimgroove]

I see nothing in your most recent wall worth responding to.

I love this person

Says the guy who says it's scummy to ask a lot of questions and not provide a thorough follow up on them every time.

Grim bus your buddy.

I was a bit under the influence when saying that, but I must admit I rather appreciate Banksys style, she seems to be able to put things very eloquently. Rudish, but not too much. Brings in some spice!

See it's comments like this that is making you look like her buddy Grim.
You are saying that calling people idiots is being eloquent?

Of course not. If she called you an idiot, then it would not be getting my support, because you are clearly not. But it's just nice (with a lack for better words) to see someone express thoughts on your playstyle (?) that are exactly like my thoughts. That's what I was getting at with your unilateral questioning-thing. I feel B

Could you expand on your last sentence?

It’s pretty obvious isn’t it? Banksy is scum (<- this I am very confident on) and your support of her, and weird attacks on my playstyle are making me read you as her buddy. And you do realise that all of your game related posts since #8 through to this one here #23 have either been a response to me or about me, right? It makes me wonder what you'd be doing without your muse here.

And Grim you never responded to my reply of your question here:

Tell me, what three questions that asked were by you of the most help to you, and should be of particular help to all of us, and why?

You have repeatedly said that I’m not doing enough with my questions, but you did exactly nought with this. Pot meet kettle?

I'm still waiting for that case of yours btw, come on man don't leave me hanging [/quote]

[Grimgroove]

I see nothing in your most recent wall worth responding to.

I love this person

Says the guy who says it's scummy to ask a lot of questions and not provide a thorough follow up on them every time.

Grim bus your buddy.

I was a bit under the influence when saying that, but I must admit I rather appreciate Banksys style, she seems to be able to put things very eloquently. Rudish, but not too much. Brings in some spice!

See it's comments like this that is making you look like her buddy Grim.
You are saying that calling people idiots is being eloquent?

Of course not. If she called you an idiot, then it would not be getting my support, because you are clearly not. But it's just nice (with a lack for better words) to see someone express thoughts on your playstyle (?) that are exactly like my thoughts. That's what I was getting at with your unilateral questioning-thing. I feel Banksys did a really good job of getting that point across.

I put a questionmark between brackets there. Because from the one game we've been in together, I don't remember this actually being your playstyle. On the cotnrary even, yes, you did ask questions, but the way I remember you was very brief posts, with one or two specific question tops. Your questions were also all pertinent. Here there's a big amount of questions that are not relevant.

Could you expand on your last sentence?

It’s pretty obvious isn’t it? Banksy is scum (<- this I am very confident on) and your support of her, and weird attacks on my playstyle are making me read you as her buddy.

As her buddy or as her scumbuddy?

And you do realise that all of your game related posts since #8 through to this one here #23 have either been a response to me or about me, right? It makes me wonder what you'd be doing without your muse here.

This is not due to Banksys, but due to you. I guess you are my muse. I admit I have to read up on Cat's entrance for instance, or CheeryDog's stances on all of this, but if there's anything that made me lose touch with this game it's been your questioning. My vote on you may be my way of transferring my feelings of guilt over my laziness to you,b ut normally I'm really not a lazy player. You've seen me play. But you want me to respond to all this stuff, there simply is no time for me to get into anything else. This is an actual, real argument. My time is not infinite.

And Grim you never responded to my reply of your question here:

Tell me, what three questions that asked were by you of the most help to you, and should be of particular help to all of us, and why?

You have repeatedly said that I’m not doing enough with my questions, but you did exactly nought with this. Pot meet kettle?

I'm still waiting for that case of yours btw, come on man don't leave me hanging

This is a fair request. I shall get on it within 48 hours!

[Grimgroove]

I am truly sorry, no idea what happened here, but only 173 should be read.

[Grimgroove]

Why did you attach that last part saying that "this is an actual, real argument"? Are you implying that your other arguments have not been real? That they are fake?

You cannot be serious?

[Grimgroove]

And you're misrepping me again Grim, you say I ALWAYS add a question when I answer you, but this is incorrect, anyone reading my posts can see this. And the reason I did ask you questions is because I am trying to figure out your alignment.

Were you also serious here?

[Grimgroove]

I'm building up to my point :p
But dinner calls! Will be back later.

[Grimgroove]

Why did you attach that last part saying that "this is an actual, real argument"? Are you implying that your other arguments have not been real? That they are fake?

You cannot be serious?

And you're misrepping me again Grim, you say I ALWAYS add a question when I answer you, but this is incorrect, anyone reading my posts can see this. And the reason I did ask you questions is because I am trying to figure out your alignment.

Were you also serious here?

So then.
I really really don't feel like going into detail when analyzing everything Ravenpaw has been saying, it's too much. Ravenpaw, I've been ignoring your assignment of "finding three questions that were unhelpful" not because they don't exist (you yourself know that they do), but because 1. it is a tedious assignment in itself, even moreso because 2. I hold you capable of finding some farfetched reason for asking a certain question and attach some equally farfetched conslusion to it. I don't feel like entering that conversation.

Now I've been getting scummy vibes from you. Before I try to explain I must grant you several things: I'm not as active in this game as I usually am. Apart from you, Cheery Dog and Banksys, I have trouble even remebering who actually is in this game. Now, you can use this to discredit my view oàn you as much as you please, but my read on you, lazy as it may seem, is genuine, and with the aobve two posts I feel I can illustrate my main "beef" with you (or your playstyle). A similar thing is going on with this "he"-"she"-thing that's gonig on between you and banksys.

While during your questioning you may find and raise some good points, it's the above that gives you away in my eyes. Grasping at straws to somehow make your case gain weight. It feels so artificial.

The above struck me as odd.

You say I MISREP you by saying that you ALWAYS add questions of your own to answers that you give. First of all I don't like your inclination to pull that misrecard all the time. There are such things as interpretations as well, and also, like in my case, of agreed upon language. The word "always" is rarely meant to be taken seriously. OBviously you have been giving answers without adding a question to it. Me saying you always do that is not me saying you ALWAYS do that, it's just me saying I discerned a general trend where you do that. You turning this into a misrep shows you are intent on making me look bad.

The same for the other one. The fact that I added this is an "actual, real, argument"OBVIOUSLY does not mean that the other stuff I said wasn't. Reading it that way shows your questionable intentions when reading me. What I meant, and what I feel would be a more normal interpretation, is that the "time-argument" got ignored before, possible because people don't take it seriously. "There's always time", some people seem to think. There isn't. I wanted to stress this point by adding what I added.

You do not scumhunt Ravenpaw. You've got a pot of "scumpaint" and you use your brush on whoever you see fit. Hence my vote on you.

Now, I underqtand your request of me replacing out, I should read into other people as well. My promise to you: I will do this before the end of the day.

[Grimgroove]

Just re-read through page 2 and 3 and I'm actually pretty angry with the way Ravenpaw hijacked my attention there. Just look for yourself. And it's so obvious now.

Ravenpaw, you commented on basically everything, but not on my first attempt at a case on Cheery Dog. Why was this irrelevant to you? You only mentioned it indirectly by asking BigTerp questions about it. Questions, all these questions.

And I didn't like your "Why did you ask?" after me asking for your read on Dyslexicon (post 70). Imagine having to answer that for every question you have asked. I reckon you'd be here for a while. Hijack. Plain and simple.

[Grimgroove]

Ravenpaw is a MACHINE !!!!

[Grimgroove]

I don't like Cat's last post. Sounds mighty opportunistic and he doesn't give me the impression of knowing what's going on.

So, I'm going to reply to Ravenpaw again, but I invite everyone to read the game from the start again, and see how she has single-handedly made this topic a big ball of mess. She has to put half her posts in spoiler tags for damage control. We are on page 8!!!! Doesn't sound like someone reading too much into everything? This is paralyzing.

Another awesome wall that must be spoilered or else the masses will go blind with its awesomeness:

Spoiler:

So then.
I really really don't feel like going into detail when analyzing everything Ravenpaw has been saying, it's too much. Ravenpaw, I've been ignoring your assignment of "finding three questions that were unhelpful" not because they don't exist (you yourself know that they do), but because 1. it is a tedious assignment in itself, even moreso because 2. I hold you capable of finding some farfetched reason for asking a certain question and attach some equally farfetched conslusion to it. I don't feel like entering that conversation.

Then why even start that line of questioning with me when you had no intention with concluding it? Just wanting to try and sling some mud at me? Yeah just as I suspected. I answered your challenge, so the ball was in your court to do something.

Of course I had an intention of concluding it, that's what I did. Not in the way you liked, but I did conclude. I kept the ball and ran off with it, to show everyone how you mistreated it.

Now I've been getting scummy vibes from you. Before I try to explain I must grant you several things: I'm not as active in this game as I usually am. Apart from you, Cheery Dog and Banksys, I have trouble even remebering who actually is in this game. Now, you can use this to discredit my view oàn you as much as you please, but my read on you, lazy as it may seem, is genuine, and with the aobve two posts I feel I can illustrate my main "beef" with you (or your playstyle). A similar thing is going on with this "he"-"she"-thing that's gonig on between you and banksys.

There is no “she” thing. I have already explained the “he” thing very clearly.
Am I right in assuming you don’t find it odd that Banksy said she felt very bad about saying something that in reality never even occurred?

No. It's very odd. Let's hope it's not a tumor.

While during your questioning you may find and raise some good points, it's the above that gives you away in my eyes. Grasping at straws to somehow make your case gain weight. It feels so artificial.

Explain what is wrong with my case on Banksy please.

I was talking about your case against me, which is a bit (though slightly) less tedious to follow.

You say I MISREP you by saying that you ALWAYS add questions of your own to answers that you give. First of all I don't like your inclination to pull that misrecard all the time. There are such things as interpretations as well, and also, like in my case, of agreed upon language. The word "always" is rarely meant to be taken seriously. OBviously you have been giving answers without adding a question to it. Me saying you always do that is not me saying you ALWAYS do that, it's just me saying I discerned a general trend where you do that. You turning this into a misrep shows you are intent on making me look bad.

Okay three things here:
1) Why did you not say anything about this at the time if it so bothered you? Instead you decided to bring it into discussion only later when I questioned you about your odd wording.
2) Seeing as how this is a game done through text we have every right to analyse the words people use and question why they say certain things.
3) Calling out when a misrep happens is good, it shows that a person is looking at the facts.

1/ These are the questions that make you look bad. And you answering it yourself is even worse. This has got nothing to do with you questioning my choice of words. Argh. It just didn't seem important at the time, even though your literal interpretation of Always already annoyed me. But it kept nagging in my head. Now I burst.
2/ I really don't know what to say to that... Take it up to the Human Rights Watch? I never said you can't do what you're doing, I'm saying the way you're doing it is scummy.
3/ IT WAS NOT A MISREP, SO DO NOT CALL IT A MISREP!! It is not good. Do not talk about FACTS when in point 2 you talk about interpretations.

The rest later. Exhausted.

[Grimgroove]

Did you find Wolfie suspicious at the time for other reasons?

I did not. I liked the fact that we had 2 people at L-2 early on. Was hoping to generate some movement, squirming, etc.

Do you think there's likely to be scum among Raven and Banksys?

Yes, specifically Raven for reasons I posted here 190. But Banksys post 199 has got me scratching my head. The thread has been a real mess, so I could have easily missed it or forgotten, but I don't remember Banksys suspecting either one of these until just now. She's been on Ravens ass for the past 3-4 pages and then all of a sudden tells us we need to seriously look at Cat and Wolfie. I don't get it.

I get it. I'm going through something similar, but don't have the "luxury" of leaving the game.
While his attention was also hijacked by Ravenpaw, it does let others slip under the net. I'm also having a faint gutreading and wariness of some people actively staying in the shadows, seemingly not too annoyed by all this fuss. The names Banksys mentioned fall under this description.

Now, of course if you say something like that, you have to make a case. But that lazy ass just left us hanging dry, so I guess I'll have to do it before Ravenpaw shows up and takes all my attention again. Both by being scummy and by trying to make me look bad.

Got good vibes from piegun, and liked dyslexicon's latest.

Cheery Dog, hmm, dangerous, going to read up on him. He was the one on my radar before Ravenpaw distracted me. MAybe she was distracting me from him.

Lots of stuff going on here though, that's for sure.

[Grimgroove]

I hope there's no bad blood between us Ravenpaw. When I see you mention "my personal dislike of your posts" I fear that there is, so let me get out of the way first: I don't "dislike" your style as such, let alone you as a person. I myself am prone to walls and have had to face scrutiny because of it. Being short and concise is not my specialty. I grant you there was an element of frustration at play because somehow I was forced to invest a lot energy in something that seemed so senseless to me. But it's not a matter of dislike, it's a matter of scumminess.

What I find scummy about your posts in this game is not just the amount of questions (though it is also a factor), but mainly what they are about, and more importantly: what they aren't about. You ignoring my comments (I'd evenc all it the start of a case) on Cheery Dog but nitpicking on some L-1-L-2 semantics was the first time you rubbed me the scummy way, because you seemed very eager to get lost in the details. Now, maybe you are town and you are working up your way to something, but it's not the impression you've given me. Instead, it feels you post all these questions to A. somehow direct people's attention to where you want it to be, for whichever reason; B. nitpick on, in my view, inconsequential matters. When directing people's attention, you're essentially directing the thread. You become a townleader. But a townleader needs cases and I don't think that what you have contributed so far has shown us a good case, I'm sorry. 130 I guess you could call an effort, but a lot seems OMGUS (there's a lot of "me" inthere). 183 is the same, with some expansions. I don't think this constitute a case to be honest. MAybe now that the argument with Banksys lies a bit behind you, you can look at this more objectively yourself.

My read on Banksys is town, because I see where she is coming from in her posts, and her style was so confrontational it added to the feeling this person was confident that she was on to something. She engaged with you and with the game in a very hands-on way, admitted to being experienced (not hiding under some newb-status) and also her going-away present felt very town.

[Grimgroove]

Ooh, a threat.

VOTE: Cat Clancer

I apologize you guys don't like my posts about being busy, however I don't see how that's scum. I have other priorities over this.
That aside, every time I HAVE the time to explain my cases, I have. (disclaimer, instascum amirite?)

Nobody said anything about "your posts about being busy".

Foremost, I have read the thread everyday. I know what's going on.

This is not apparent.

I don't like posting fluff IF I can avoid it.

We're not asking for fluff. You just said you know what's going on. Please tell us what's going on.

Like I said in a previous post, either Raven or Blankys was I felt was town OR scum.

Rephrase please. The way it reads now, this is a non-statement. The fluff you so eagerly want to avoid.

Since Blankys is getting replaced, any reads I had on them are pretty much null and void. So, I'm not going to bother in great detail

It's still the same slot, with the same role behind it. It's just a different person playing it now.

As for Raven, on the other hand, here's my thoughts.
Lot's of questions, follow-ups, seems pretty town so far. Gives good reason and asks good questions.
Bankys, on the other hand, would ask questions and follow-up, but would be very aggressive and attack when could not find sufficient evidence or could not properly explain. Either very defensive, or pancaking because they were scum. Raven would not panic, gives me the feeling they had nothing to hide.

Could you point me to Banksys' panic attack? Seems to be the core difference between Ravenpaw and her according to you, but I did not see any panicking.

Also, Dyslex, are you only voting for me because of "an opportunistic" post? Again, I'm sorry I don;t have time to post regularly. I do read what's going on everyday though. Or does it have to do with Blankys prodding?

Banksys prodding?
Opportunism has got nothing to do with you not psoting regularly. It's about you taking an opportunistic stance in the Ravenpaw-Banksys-debate without displaying the slightest factual knowledge about their discussion.

To be honest, I have been considering asking for a replacement simply because I didn't have the time I thought I would have, and that's not fair to me or you guys. You depend on active people for information.

Meh. Don't like to discuss anything that's go to do with replacings. Unnecessarily obfuscating things.

[Grimgroove]

TvT?

[Grimgroove]

Oh, town vs town. Well, you can't be sure, can you?
I have given my views on Ravenpaw and why I think she's scum. If you feel my argumentation in this regard is severely lacking, please specify where.
My view remains unchanged, but other options need to be explored now. Cat Clancer first and foremost.

[Grimgroove]

Sakura Hana now.

[Grimgroove]

Grimgroove and Dys, what are your opinions on Sakura so far?

I will get to that later.
Lame replacers, bah.

[Grimgroove]

Grim your initial reason for scumreading Ravenpaw is because you liked Flareon's playstyle more in the Ravenpaw v Flareon shitstorm.

You are mistaking.

Don't call me lame

I was referring to the people replacing out, not to the wonderful people taking on the burden of replacing in

Yes, I'm sure Ravenpaw vs Flareon is townvtown.

Interesting. I find certainty in these matters always a tiny bit suspicious.

We lynch CD today and Grim tomorrow.

I will try to make the most of my day of respite. I thank you for your kindness!

[Grimgroove]

Shoo, away with you and your silly questions, answered by readings posts and looking at voting patterns.

[Grimgroove]

Who the heck has 100% accurate reads on D1?

lol, why aren't you lynched yet?

[Grimgroove]

never lynch Pie.

Word!

[Grimgroove]

You are mistaking.

Nope. That is clearly what your ISO says.

Please refrain from lying.

Interesting. I find certainty in these matters always a tiny bit suspicious.

I am certain since one of them is confirmed town to me and I don't have doubts about the other being town.

Let's move the obvious away out of that sentence since that's talking about your slot and goes without saying, so shouldn't have been said:

Interesting. I find certainty in these matters always a tiny bit suspicious.

I am certain since I don't have doubts about the other being town.

Helpful.

I will try to make the most of my day of respite. I thank you for your kindness!

That WIFOM-storm, yeah?

What the hell are you talking about?

My vote on Sakura Hana will remain. Two person in the same slot looking equally scummy on D1, I don't see what more we could want.

Not too fond of Cheery Dog, my gut doesn't agree with him, but thank you for helping clear away the bullshit in Viera's cases.

Don't know what to think of Ravenpaw. Her backing off of me rubbed me the right way, shows flexibility in opinions that is more frequent in townies.

BigTerp, liked him somewhere around the middle but kind of forgetting about him.

Pieguyn obvtowning for our benefit. Dyslexicon looks town to me too.

[Grimgroove]

Don't you all hate the word "pinging"?
I do. I hate it.
Another reason to vote Sakura Hana.

[Grimgroove]

I haven't looked that deeply into him or into your case on him, but during 292 and 318 I saw two striking instances that made me believe firmly in that slot being scum. I considered it confirmation of my thoughts surrounding Cat Clancer.

[Grimgroove]

In this case it's used in a scummy way. The word is made to express a non-commital remark that can later be referred to as a crucial element in a case.

Like what I did with Sakura Hana, but without the word "pinging". Because I don't care about being careful about my words. I think Sakura is scum and want him lynched.

Sakura is clearly not working with the same mindset with all his pinging.

Now unvote me, or at least spell my name right :p

[Grimgroove]

@Derivan

Why are you intent on lynching liabilities to town rather than scum?

I don't think the amount of words spent in this game have amounted to a lot that is interesting. Lynching me over my probably temporary disinterest would be a mistake, culminating in a non-informative policy lynch killing one of the town.

I'll grant you that my last argument against Sakura, that splendid female I have so wrongfully misjudged as being a man, isn't the strongest but I explained why I don't like her using it. I've had this discussion before, over someone saying "yup" instead of "yes". I was wrong then, but I still stand by what I said then: word choices do matter. This is a word-based game. Scum thinks about their words more than town. If I feel a word is being used where it shouldn't be, or too much, my radar ... PINGS!!! Steam flows out of my ears. Visions play out in front of my very eyes. I type those visions down and what do I get? Some guy voting me close to deadline for no good reasons.

Shame on you.

I have answered pieguyn's question. Was that answer not to your liking, or have you not read it, despite my answer being in the hind of this ugly cow of a topic that you have decided to take on from behind.

[Grimgroove]

Sakura Hana, is there nothing you would ask of me? I have noticed you ignoring me. Am I nothing but a fly on its way to burn itself by lingering on a halogen lamp or do you think me to be a malicious mosquito? Please state your opinion on me before some wagon forms allowing you to be opportunistic about this all and swap away a harmless fly, merely attracted by the stench of scum, under the pretext of you thinking worse of me.

[Grimgroove]

GOT YOU

Have you even seen the context of my votes being placed? Before asking this question?
I don't think you did.
Our replacement boy will frown upon this considering he's so into reading things correctly before speaking. Get ready for a vote.

Look at the vote count, and look at my position on the wagons. Note that I did not sheep on bigger wagons. I was one of the sturdy horses pulling them, with all my might and without care for my own well-being.

[Grimgroove]

Just checked, and I'm happy to report I guessed Derivan's gender correctly! I meant no disrespect if your age doesn't warrant you being called a boy anymore, it's just that your age is not visible under your avatar so I took a leap of faith.

[Grimgroove]

I don't know how, I think it's a gift. But I know I got you by the obviously proverbial balls so it must be something.

I voted Ravenpaw for reasons stemming from deep within me. Flareon managed to draw them out in a more expediënt manner than Ravenpaw and her genius tactics of burrying me in posts could.

My vote on your slot has got nothing to do with your or your predecessor's "logic". Where did you get that idea?

[Grimgroove]

Glad to see Dys is back and posting. Providing some decent analysis as well. Glad to see he is thinking along the same lines as me 361 regarding the VA and Sakura sheeping. In regards to that, I feel a bit stronger about calling Sakura town after she switched her vote to VA with good explanations. This 351 also feels pretty townish to me.

This 369 seems a little weird from VA. Although Grims recent postings have me looking his direction a bit. There are posts like this 333, 353, 357 that seem scummy to me. They are mostly filler posts with a bit of scumhunting/questioning involveded. But then there are posts like this 341 that look townish. I'm starting to lean scum on Grim.

There's no filler, I just like metaphors to get my point across but everything I said relates directly to the game. The messages in those "scummy posts" should be clear.

[Grimgroove]

I could actually compromise for a Grimgroove lynch actually, he's been reaching quite a lot lately.

Mighty big of you

[Grimgroove]

I voted for you in order to elicit a reaction (I readily admitted that I hadn't completed reading the thread and was working backwards), not because of your apparent lack of attention to detail. I am intent on lynching scum, which based on your reaction I now believe you might be.

Explain yourself.

[Grimgroove]

You should explain why in post 93 you are really breaking down and reading the game closely and now are making weak cases. Are you just a burnt out liability or scum? You seem to be attempting to do some scum hunting early on and now this, it's confusing.

My case on Sakura Hana is not weak. Read what I wrote. Don't just look at it. READ.
I'll explain if I have to but fuck, it's tedious. So tedious, when you could just be reading

[Grimgroove]

My vote for Grim was a quick reaction test as I was working a few pages back to at least get something going. His reaction and OMGUS vote isn't rubbing me the right way. He is currently filed under very possible scum.

OMGUS vote?
Boy making shit up.

[Grimgroove]

I liked your predecessor much better.
You did not nail me. You called me out for blatantly sheeping your slot before your arrival, which is not an established fact. It's a fantasy.
And even if it were an argument, being caught in the act of sheeping does not constitute being nailed. Unless you're in Wales. I'm not in Wales.

[Grimgroove]

I hope the people currently voting me are reading this -_- Even Ravenpaw who I so visciously attacked and has every reason to hate me will deny that claim.

Fuck it, case against Sakura incoming. Tonight, or tomorrow. Based on my own fucking posts, because I'm on to something and you should have noticed, only I NEED TO SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU and it's tedious

After that I'm looking into Derivan.

This is my plan of action. Put your silly attacks on hold, if only for self-preservation.

[Grimgroove]

My interactions with Ravenpaw do. Click the ISO button (according to my calculations it should be just above the word "interactions" in this post) and scroll your merry way up.

I'm not going to be your speedlynch over some made-up shit. Give something real.

I'll tell you why she's scum, and then you can tell me all about how she's town later and look stupid.

[Grimgroove]

No, being abrasive does not mean that you get me to back off.

Damnit, normally that works every time

[Grimgroove]

Someone's comment about her replacing out then signing up for another game immediately made me infer that she replaced out in frustration.
The

"people"

complimenting her on her confidence was Grim, who's scum.

I just noticed this
Ok, my next post is a case on Sakura. Pinky promise.

[Grimgroove]

Sorry for having taken so long. Maybe JasonWazza can ask for a deadline extension as well.

Not hammering Viera Assassin, still think she's town, despite her faulty scumradar.

Sakura Hana should be our lynch for the day.

I started with my case on her predecessor, Cat Clancer, because it's easier and shorter, but my case on Sakura Hana will follow in a couple of hours when I'm home.

On Cat Clancer, the following:

Like so many people, he started with RVS'ing and some little prodding and alright questions. His start was decent, but in no way telling of any alignment.
His first judgeworthy post was post 97, where he presents an ISO on Pieguyn. You'll have noticed that before this 97, Cat Clancer thought of ISO's as the way par excellence to scumhunt. At the start of his post 97 he implies he's ISO'd everyone,b y saying he's sharing his comments on Pieguyn's specifically because he found them most dubious (granted, this is implicit). The fact that this "case" on Pieguyn is weak is beyond question. Why is it weak? Because Cat Clancer is a noob, or because Cat Clancer is scum reachin for straws and trying to look good? The eternal question. I think it's the first because of "the lie" that he checked all ISO's. Now I call it a lie, and you may say: he never said he did, but to me the implication is clear. Or you can say: How are you certain he didn't ISO everyone? I'm not, but when looking aat his case being so weak on Pieguyn, I'm pretty certain that if he had ISO'd everyone, he could have come up with something better.

Now an evolution.

131 Ravenpaw is being complimented for her wonderful townplay, full of information and analysis, arguments. In the same post, he still calls pieguyn scum (even though pieguyn retorted with ease to Cat's accusations) and Banksys, who showed equal vigour in presenting details and arguments as Ravenpaw. The problem Cat Clancer is having with Banksys is style, as is evident from his post 139, but calling that style scummy is a huge stretch. Another problem I have with 139 is how Cat mentions taking it easy "on people learning the game". Rather than a defense of Ravenpaw against Banksys' manners, this feels more like a (partially) pre-emptive self-defense.

The real interesting switch is in post 196, where he suddenly sees both Ravenpaw AND Banksys as possible scum AND calls their discussion the essence of this dayphase, forgetting about the strong townread he had earlier on Ravenpaw. This switch is not properly, if at all, explained. I called it opportunistic right after I saw it,b ecause it felt like scum on the sideline, trying to keep his options open watching a TvT-fight. Cat Clancer's behavior here is actually part of the reason why I started second-guessing my own view on Ravenpaw. Somehow I felt she was the victim of opprotunistic scum here, making me see her in a new light.

To his 207, which I found incredibly scummy, you can already find my response in post 218. Sadly, none on the points in 218 were addressed, because he replaced out right after it. Not for nothing,b ut given my view on that slot, I wouldn't be surprised if this is newb-scum seeing he's already out of his reach and simply deciding to replace out.

A general iSO of Cat Clancer will show you he's done nothing of substantial scumhunting, except for his ill-concieved ISO on Pieguyn and some opportunistic commenting on Ravenpaw vs. Banksys.

I don't expect Sakura Hana to reply to this, my case on her is coming up, but one thing I can already say is that I noticed a similar read-inconsistency (in this case on me), non-helpful questions that make her try to look busy, and painting anything she does as townier than they are.

More later.

Vote Sakura Hana while you wait though.

[Grimgroove]

First thing I already want to get out there.
There's not much use to go into too much detail in her catch-up posts. There's much of it in them that I don't like, making it look like she just wants town-cred for simply making the effort of gonig through the topic and commenting on most of it. But her choice of commenting on what and in what way seems very arbitrary.

One crucial thing I want to point out here though, is the following:

Page 7

Not much to comment on (considering there's like a penta post in there)

Page 8

Seeing Grimgroove as possible scum too, I think we got the scumteam!

184 I do agree with Cheery here tho, even if that point doesnt have scum motivation, I still like Flareon for scum.
188 Uhh no, that's not how it works, if you want to accuse her of unhelpful questioning you need to bring evidence.
194 Yeah, why are you comparing 2 different people who could potentially have 2 very different playstyles?

On to Page 9...

Page 9

201 So what's your stance on Grim?
204 Oh cool you're here too (tho i had already noticed when i did my last P-Edit ), unfortunately tho i think you replaced into a scum slot.
[post[214[/post] Leans town to me which nullifies the scum read i had on him earlier. I concede and i'll give you a null-town for now.

And I guess that's about it.

Vote: Viera Assassin

@VA: Have you iso'd your predecessor? What do you think about them? What do you think about Raven?

Current Reads:
Town: Raven
Null-Town: Dys, Cheery,

Groovy guy

Null-Scum: pieguy
Scum: Viera Assasin.

Null: The rest.

Guess we can start forming a town bloc from here.

Look at my position in the reads list, and put that next to the way she commented on anything I've done. It does not compute. AT ALL. I should be right there, next to Viera Assassin, if not at the very least next to pieguyn. This inconsistency shows me she doesn't sincerely produce reads, she doesn't "feel" it when someone could be scum, as you do as town, she has to "remember" it, making this scumhuniting business so artificial. In this case, she didn't remember, giving her away.


More later.

[Grimgroove]

Hold on! I just realized the 214 she was referring to, was about me.

Still, I feel this one remark on my 214 is rather a dramatic switch from me scum to me null-town. That post was basically me just saying I liked Ravenpaw as a person and repeating what I had said about her earlier as to why I thought she was scum. Really nothing new. Not a reason for a switch in reads.

[Grimgroove]

I hadn't noticed it before.

[Grimgroove]

Also, why did you have to wait until we were almost close to deadline to point that thing several pages ago?

What is your theory?

[Grimgroove]

It's the first, but I didn't notice "anything pertaining to you". I felt I had noticed enough to call you out for scum, which is not necessarily the same as "everything".

[Grimgroove]

Damn me and my procratination.
Oh well, no other options:

I don't think this will be a good lynch, but better that than nothing:

VOTE: Viera Assassin

Hammer'd

[Grimgroove]

For the record, I think the scumteam is Derivan and Sakura Hana.

[Grimgroove]

I'll try to squeeze in the rest of case on Sakura before the flip. Getting to it now.

[Grimgroove]

I've done Derivan first, since it's only four posts. I have to reasses my scumread on him, there's more about his posts that I actually like than that I dislike. The main thing I dislike is his tunnel on me, but that doesn't make someone scum.

He replaced Michael Wolf, whose posts weren't very telling, but never struck the wrong chord with me. I had Michael Wolf as null-town before he replaced out.

Michael Wolf's 350 is the start of his catch-up. He starts from the back of the topic, a defendable approach but I wouldn't do it that way. It resulted in him frying me over calling somebody out over the word "pinging". I can understand how, if this was the first impression I gave him, this feels like someone using anything possible to get town mislynched. It's too bad my other comments versus Sakura Hana that I had made at the time were influenced by some marihuana, bringing out the pompous poet in me, so I guess I cans ee why he missed the point of those.
I like how he in that same post asks for a deadline extension. It's a town-request. I didn't see make JasonWazza a similar request.
Problem: because of his tunnel he didn't do much with the remaining time, hence my gut scumread at the time. The tunnel came with some misreps (stating I was OMGUS-voting the most notable one), which didn't improve our relations. He still needs to explain where he got the idea I was OMGUS'ing. He also has to explain what was scummy about my reaction to his vote. Him admitting he didn't make a hige case against me, but later stating he "nailed" me is just over-confident town.

Yeah, no, Derivan is town. I'll work on convincing him I'm town as well tomorrow.

Still some time for Sakura now I hope. Grrr.

[Grimgroove]

Wasn't Raven fingereing Grim for awhile as well?

Disgusting.

[Grimgroove]

Heads up: I'll be V/LA starting from tomorrow until Monday 30th of September. I should be able to come online during the course of next week, but it will be limited.

[Grimgroove]

I'm not going to convince you through a case on myself :s I was hoping to convince you through my actions.

The Ravenpaw-kill is a newbie-kill. It makes very little sense and the decision has probably been made with some flimsy plan behind it trying to implicate a certain someone else for the specific kill.

I will do the Sakura Hana-thing before I go on V/LA though.

[Grimgroove]

Please tell me how you reached this conclusion.
Didn't like how you already tried to link the Ravenpaw kill to me.

I'm on V/LA so not much time, but you have to make a case before voting me.

[Grimgroove]

I'm on V/LA and I'm still more active than 90% of the player field :s

[Grimgroove]

Your NK-analysis pointing to me seems highly opportunistic to me.

[Grimgroove]

Your NK-analysis pointing to me seems highly opportunistic to me.

I'm really surprised you don't mention this when I tried to analyze NKs, just this

how come you didn't question me when I did it? 0.0

instead you just posted the NK choice was probably irrelevant.

Which boils down to the same core message, only your analysis didn't feel as prepondered upon.

If anything, I think the Ravenpaw kill is somehow meant to exonerate everyone else on the Viera Assassin wagon. oing to analyze that once I get out of V/LA. I forgot about my case on Sakura, I've been promising it for such a long time now, I'll do a re-read of the entire thing as it's been such a long time I basically forgot what's going on here.

[Grimgroove]

Back from V/LA tomorrow. pieguyn, you dissappoint me gravely. You are reading way too much in me having largely ignored something you may have said just after the nightstage. Sakura is behaving as I expected. Who not with their head in the game would vote for such easy reasonz? Scum. Tommorrow I'm having that case. The reason why I don't is not because of my alignment (how could it be...) but because, like every single one of you, I can't seem to begin caring about this game anymore.

But I don't want to get lynched. It would ruin my clean streak so far in only having been killed throug nightkills so far.

Meh.

[Grimgroove]

I'm surprised no one has pointed out me posting elsewhere while not posting here, despite me doing that on purpose

[Grimgroove]

so jetlagged

[Grimgroove]

You won't.
Bleh. I drank in order to aleviate my jetlag, but now I might be too drunk too post.

I'll write down what I think though. Off the top of my head. Not that there's much lost in this repsect, even when you ge tyour head into this game, there's not much to go with.

I think BigTepr is town. I do want tob e careful int his assessment though. The reasonw y have him as town is the first stzge,w hre he continuously made a good mpression on me. But scum ha amde good impressions on me before. I know there's an element of ogmus in me callnig im out on his nk-analysis, but I just feel that im linking me to the Ravenpaw kill is not something one would think of naturally. I was on Ravenpaw's back for most of the game, and after Viera Assassin's lynch I actually would hae additional arguments to get her lynched. Why as scum would I want her killed? igTerp thus linking me toh er kill just felt off.

Sakura Hana is scum.
VOTE: Sakura Hana

I am certain. Don't ask me how, I just know it. Her play is lazy in te scummy way, her vote on me jsut know, maknig it look like a compromise ("I'm fine with a GG-lynch"-, while it's obvious she would want nothing more than that is just a plain lie. That little game of he reing ianctive ere and inactive elsewhere is jyust her trying tog e ttowncred out of inaxctivity.

Inactivity is a curse in this game for sure. MAybe it's unfair to blame Ravenpaw for it all, I had previously good game experiences with her, but somehow I nevergot into this game like I got into others, and the big discussions and walls are what threw me off in the begniing. It's cirucmstances coming together, me being busy with work and suddenly walls pooping up everywherE.

Pieguyn I still regard as town, and while I said I was disapponited in him, I think I know see hiw his vote is actually sign of his disappointment in me.

Cheery Dog thinking I got more town feels like buddying. I didn't get more town. I got inacitve as hell, demotivated and full of empty promises of more

[Grimgroove]

(posted too soon)

activity. How is that more town?


My current scum-team guess is Cheery Dog - Sakura Hana, despite the first's intention to want to vote the second's. Like I said, his is off the top of my head, but the top of the head can be correct in some instances.

As regards to Pieguyn question about my apprent double-standard when it comes to nightkill-analysis: I guess seeing my name linked to the Ravnepaw kill jsut did it for me ni this respect. I don't think thi is a logical conclusion to draw (as I could have just continued to try to go for ehr lycnh), and when I saw it drawn alarm bells started ringing.

I hope I'llb e bothered to make a case on Sakura. Three days left till deadline.

If I am lynched I want at the very least tat people will look past my laziness after my flip and take my gut for what it's worth. I'd like to think it's worth a lot.

[Grimgroove]

I'm considering him an eager town-newbie. But he could just as well be an eager scum-newbie already seeing the win, inevitable if this kind of axtivity is kept up, in his sights, and tryin gto move people to simply speed that up.

My problem with BigTerp is that I know he's a genuine good guy, I just don't know if he's a good guy in this game.

[Grimgroove]

Maybe you could RVS to further illustrate your complete non-involvement in this game?

[Grimgroove]

I'm considering him an eager town-newbie. But he could just as well be an eager scum-newbie already seeing the win, inevitable if this kind of axtivity is kept up, in his sights, and tryin gto move people to simply speed that up.

My problem with BigTerp is that I know he's a genuine good guy, I just don't know if he's a good guy in this game.

What does me being a "genuine good guy" have anything to do with weither I'm scum or not?

Nothing.
A flaw of mine is that I tend to let that influence my reads, as it influences my gut. I am aware of the problem and try to minimize it, but there you have it.

[Grimgroove]

I do want tob e careful int his assessment though.

Why?

Why was it this part in particular that made you feel like questioning me?

[Grimgroove]

That doesn't answer the why-question.

Also, if you look through the poor spelling (sorry about that), you can see that I do try to explain that in the same paragraph from whence the sentence you picked out hails.

[Grimgroove]

keyword being: careful.

oooooooooooooooooooh








the plot thickens!

[Grimgroove]

I'm considering him an eager town-newbie. But he could just as well be an eager scum-newbie already seeing the win, inevitable if this kind of axtivity is kept up, in his sights, and tryin gto move people to simply speed that up.

My problem with BigTerp is that I know he's a genuine good guy, I just don't know if he's a good guy in this game.

I don't think I'm being eager at all. Just trying to get this slow poke of a game moving a bit. We went from like 19 pages day 1 to 2 pages day 2. Makes it hard to get reads when no one is posting.

Eagerness is not a bad thing. Why did you feel the need to defend yourself against my statement of you being eager?
You trying to get this game moving shows eagerness. Yet you want to deny it.

There's such a thing like looking "too town" and you're doing it right here. The alarm bells ring. Ring-a-ding-ding.

What are your thoughts on Sakura again? And on Cheery Dog?

[Grimgroove]

I made up my mind about you, what do you think about that?

[Grimgroove]

I made up my mind about you, what do you think about that?

That it's scummy.

Sounds like you've got your mind made up as well.


I think the lynch for today should either be me or Sakura Hana. Whoever has got their vote on someone else (or nobody), should move it.

If you make the sad choice of lynching me first, I know you will lynch Sakura tomorrow.

[Grimgroove]

@Mod

: I'll be V/LA (but you can make that a V) starting from tomorrow until (and including) Sunday. Going to the Oktoberfesten in Munich.
If I'm not back by Monday I have died from alcohol poisoning and you may replace me.

@all: If you have any questions or comments for me specifcally, please ask them now. I'll scan the last pages for comments and questions I may have missed this afternoon.

[Grimgroove]

Cheery Dog thinking I got more town feels like buddying. I didn't get more town. I got inacitve as hell, demotivated and full of empty promises of more

Actions don't make the motivations I'm looking at in determining you town.

How can you identify my motivations if not through my actions?

[Grimgroove]

It looks too me as if everything rings your alarm grim, first it's me

and VA

, then it's me and cheery, and now you're getting an alarm on bigterp here, make up your mind!

Possibly an innocent mistake, but VA never really rang my alarm bells. I hammered him because it was better than a no-lynch, but never was he my preferred target, mainly because I townread Banksys (VA's predecessor) so much. Check D1.
But you probably meant to say Ravenpaw, which would make the above statement correct.
But it is also obviously meant to discredit my read on you, hiding yourself among others, some of which are town. Could be a soft mentioning of your buddy inthere too, not sure, but the post looks like the product tactical scumthinking to me.

[Grimgroove]

The mentioning of VA is probably an innocent mistake.
The general idea behind the post is tactical scumthinking.

[Grimgroove]

It's a way of somehow linking yourself to others who are town, under the blanket of my reads.

[Grimgroove]

Funny way to discredit a read of someone you claim to believe is scum.

[Grimgroove]

But to answer your question: obviously not everyone who rang my alarm bells is scum. I rang some people's alarm bells and I'm not scum either. Being wrong sometimes is part of the game, and inadvertently setting off some good intentioned soul's alarm, even as town, is also part of it.

But you have done it consistently. Every comment you make comes with an alarm of such intensity all my brain cells want to evacuate to my abdomen, resulting in a tingly feeling in my belly.

[Grimgroove]

The relativity of alarm bells aside, I do want Cheery Dog and BigTerp to both reply to my latest questions/comments to them. Alarm bells are always a good start.

[Grimgroove]

If it want meaningless questions answered, then answer ones given to you. (maybe it's just obvious what I mean to myself, but from what you referred was actions themselves not being town).

Thank you for that cerebral aneurysm.

You say I got more town at some point. I see: "What did I do that suddenly made me more town?", then you reply something along the lines of "It's not what you do that defines you, it's why you do it.", and then I wonder:

How do you assess my motivations? What has your thought-process leading to you considering me town?
Just explain your townread on me. It looks forced, but maybe that's because I'm not a star in psycho-analysis.

[Grimgroove]

I'm defending my "eagerness" becasue as you said I could "just as well be an eager scum-newbie already seeing the win". But in the same breath you say eagerness isn't a bad thing. Which is it?? It's posts like those that make me more and more comfortable with you being strung up. Your making assertions and then in the same post you contradict them. Looks like scum behavior to me.

If you don't micro-manage that post like you did here, you'll see it's not a contradiction. My linking eagerness to both scum and town in that post is the same as me saying that eagerness in itself is not bad, it's not a scumtell. It's null in the alignment perspective, and it's actually good in a general game-perspective. Eager players are active players are good for the game.

So whichever way you look at it, it's weird of you to defend yourself against my statement of you being eager.

I'm still working out my read on you, my gut says you're town and I'm trying to explain that gutread through my amateuristic psychobabble of you seeming like a good guy showing eagerness. But I second-guess myself and my gut openly, to not lead people astray, by saying most of that, in its foundation, is null.

[Grimgroove]

then answer ones given to you

What are you referring to here? Did I miss anything?

[Grimgroove]

MAybe I'll be able to come online tonight when I'm home, but no guarantees so quite possible my V/LA is starting now.

[Grimgroove]

And with that, my vote remains where it is. Sakura Hana's shift to a lurker is, granted its pro-town arguments, mostly pro-herself not getting lynched.
This close to the deadline, lynching a lurker is just a policy lynch, which should never be an option at this stage.
Mnemonic's cage needs rattling during D2 though, so does Derivan's.

[Grimgroove]

btw grimgroove if you're going V/LA you can use the Vacation/Limited Access tab on the User Control Panel. This will give you a V/LA tag on all your posts.

Did it! Thank you

[Grimgroove]

mostly pro-herself not getting lynched

So removing my vote off you when im the only other alternative for a lynch today is myself is avoiding getting lynched?

I think pieguyn's shift to you made you realize lynching me will not be an option anymore, so you now shift to mnemonic.

But I agree with you that mnemonic's play is anti-town to say the least. If you hadn't been scum I'd move my vote to him as well.

[Grimgroove]

So, we're in LyLo. Careful with voting please.
That lynch on mnemonic was terrible.

Town PR(s) should claim at this stage + crumbs. Gives us conftown and the info they've got potentially even more.

Not too fond of pieguyn suddenly. Will look into it later.

[Grimgroove]

Forgot Sakura already claimed Doctor.

If this is true, there either needs to be a Town Cop or a Town Tracker as well (check the matrix). If this person exists, he needs to claim now.

If this person doesn't exist, we lynch Sakura Hana.

[Grimgroove]

I'm already professing to be a Vanilla Town by the way, in case that wasn't clear.

Despite this being LyLo it isn't all bad. Scum didn't manage to get any of our PR's.

[Grimgroove]

pieguyn
aptil
BigTerp
Sakura Hana - Town Doctor
Grimgroove - Vanilla Town

Please add your claim to this list in your next post. I don't think there needs to be any discussion on whether this is a good idea or not, because it clearly is.

[Grimgroove]

Wonderful.

Hold on with voting everyone. I realize a cop-claim sounds fantastic and convincing, but await counterclaims etc. There are bound to be some.

pieguyn - Town Cop
aptil
BigTerp
Sakura Hana - Town Doctor
Grimgroove - Vanilla Town

I am now in the luxurious position to know for a fact that pieguyn is lying. If nobody else claims Cop or Tracker, this means that pieguyn and Sakura Hana are the scumteam. This will be made clear if someone else claims another town PR.

If somebody does claim Cop or Tracker, this clears at least Sakura. Then the remaining scum is among Aptil and Bigterp.

pieguyn, I assume you didn't crumb your PR or N1-result?

[Grimgroove]

Sakura, did you crumb?

[Grimgroove]

Fuck, hold on, it's not certain yet pieguyn is lying, since column B is also still a possibility in case Sakura is lying.

[Grimgroove]

I want to hear all the claims before proceeding.

@pieguyn

, if you're town (slim chance though), you HAVE TO remove your vote. Sakura Hana lying is still a possibility, even with your claim.

[Grimgroove]

pieguyn - Town Cop
aptil
BigTerp
Sakura Hana - Town Doctor
Grimgroove - Vanilla Town

[Grimgroove]

As a reminder:

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town 1-shot Bulletproof	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

With the claims we're looking at now, we're either in B, C or 2 unless BOTH Pieguyn and Sakura Hana are lying.

If we're in C, the town tracker will claim and will fight it out with Pieguyn. Sakura will then be confirmed town.
If we're in 2, I know for a fact someone else will be claiming cop because Pieguyn's results don't check out, I'm not scum.
If we're in B, meaning Pieguyn isn't lying, it means Sakura is lying and is scum together with Aptil.

If both pieguyn and Sakura are lying and they're in a scumteam, some other town PR will pop-up, like a jailkeeper or a bulletproof. This person will then have to explain though why they didn't respond to Sakura's doctors claim, if their own PR made a doctor's existence impossible. Would be an unforgivable mistake if they let that slide.

I think pieguyn is scum for not taking into account the option we are in column B and is rushing people to vote in LyLo, so I'm thinking either he's scum together with Sakura, or he's scum together with whoever doesn't claim Town Tracker (or Town Cop).

[Grimgroove]

If pieguyn isn't lying about being a cop, that means BigTerp is indeed town, and that Sakura and aptil will be quickhammering me.
If they don't, it also means pieguyn is lying.

[Grimgroove]

But if pieguyn isn't lying, he'll remove his vote as soon as he sees this.

[Grimgroove]

pieguyn who is online now.

[Grimgroove]

If you're town, you need to unvote and give this more time.

The nail in the coffin for me was indeed an intial reaction, but put yourself in my place. I'm a town VT seeing a cop claim I'm a confirmed scum. Of course my first reaction will be one of you lying. It's only on second glance I realized you might also be mistaking.

If you are town your apologies are worth shit. There is no reason at all to rush this at this point.

[Grimgroove]

plus claiming Doctor as mafia and hoping NO ONE WILL COUNTERCLAIM DOCTOR OR ANY ROLE THAT'S INCOMPATIBLE WITH A DOCTOR (hell they wouldn't even have to claim immediately. they could just wait till LyLo cause if they die before then it'll be obvious) is a complete crapshoot and you'd have to be insane to even try it. if that's the case, since no one counterclaimed Doctor, there'd be no Doctor and it'd have to be setup B. as mafia, there'd be way too many ways that plain could fail and it'd be more likely to succeed just claiming VT. it seems more likely for me that Sakura is telling the truth and mafia just roleblocked her instead of killing her.

It's risky but Sakura was in a pickle at that time. It's not completely insane to draw that card. Even if there's a counterclaim, there can still be discussion about who's telling the truth + remaining scum knows where the PR is.

Saying scum would never claim a Town doctor is just nonsense, and it's this assumption that leads you to voting me now.

If you're telling the truth, you have to entertain the possibility at least temporarily.

Nothing stops you from putting down that vote on me at some later stage.

If you don't and end up being town, you ruined this game in a realm that your apologies cannot reach. FUCK

[Grimgroove]

Good.

If you're telling the truth (which I'm slowly believing you are), and BigTerp checked out town, then we can always agree on lynching aptil in a first stage.

In the next night, Sakura Hana needs to protect you, and you need to promise to check Sakura Hana.You CANNOT deviate from this plan.

If you die, it means Sakura didn't protect you and me and the remaining town (probably BigTerp) can lynch Sakura.
If you don't die, you can see with your own eyes Sakura is scum.

BUT DON'T CHECK ME8 Because that will simply allow scum to kill me and leave you with empty hands and a possible confbias.

There's really no way to lose this if you're telling the truth and we're in column B.

[Grimgroove]

^ this was directed at pieguyn

[Grimgroove]

Pieguyn, if you're telling the truth (in attendance of further claims), this is what needs to happen:

1. We lynch aptil. You can live with that, even with your current belief that Sakura Hana is town.
2. We agree on the following: You check Sakura Hana in the night. Sakura Hana protects the Town Cop in the last night.
3a. You survive and have a check on Sakura. No matter what happens, even if scum goes for the no-kill or the BigTerp-kill, you'll have information that allows you to decide on me or Sakura.
If you check me you don't have this guarantee of a result, because if in that case scum decides not to kill anyone, we find ourselves in the same pickle as we are in today.
3b. You die, but town-win is imminent because Sakura didn't protect you, essentially meaning she's scum.

If you can find a way for me, as scum, to use this plan to my advantage, please let me know and I'm sure we'll find a way to work around that too. But I don't think there is.

This is all me assuming you're town of course.

[Grimgroove]

it could still be you/Sakura

You know how much I've been on her case throughout this entire game. I think a simple re-read of this topic will convince into letting go of that idea.

I agree with the nobody voting-plan right now. aptil and BigTerp need to come in and claim first. Then we can start working things out in a more organized manner.

[Grimgroove]

pieguyn - Town Cop
aptil - Vanilla Town
BigTerp - Vanilla Town
Sakura Hana - Town Doctor
Grimgroove - Vanilla Town

This is what we're looking at now.

The option of both pieguyn and Sakura Hana lying is now out of the window.

The option of both of them telling the truth may still be an option for some of you, but as it involves me being scum, I know for a fact that isn't it.

So I know one person of Sakura and pieguyn is lying. If pieguyn had been lying, then there would have either been a counter-claim to his copclaim, or a Town Tracker coming up. This is not the case, so Pieguyn is confirmed town. For sure. And so are his reads.

This makes Pieguyn and BigTerp confirmed town.

I thus know for a fact Sakura and aptil are the remaining scum. My feat will be to convince you of at least lynching aptil first, as he's confirmed scum in anyone's book.

There is no roleblocker. We are operating under column B (the one where there's just a town cop, no roleblocker or doctor).

Now to convince pieguyn of that.

[Grimgroove]

Again this is all assuming scum isn't dumb enough to not kill a doctor they cant block.

There is no doctor that needed blocking and there is no roleblocker.

This is the set-up:

1 Cop: pieguyn
6 VT's (2 remaining: BigTerp, Grimgroove)
2 goons (Sakura and aptil)

And I'm the only mislynch still available to scum, as BigTerp and pieguyn are confirmed town.

aptil is confirmed scum.

So this is between me and Sakura.

Just getting my head around to it. Hope you're following me with this.

Now I'm trying to figure out if it makes sense to lynch aptil now. What can we do during the night after that?

Pieguyn will die for certain during the next night, leaving me and Sakura, with BigTerp deciding on our fates. I don't think I can do anything to sway BigTerp through nightplans, so I suggest we don't lynch aptil today, but already today settle the deal and the game: me or Sakura.

And even though a doctor-claim "looks" strong, it really isn't. Going to provide that case on Sakura I should have provided ages ago, and then some.

[Grimgroove]

No reason to wait with this though

VOTE: Sakura Hana

More tonight.

[Grimgroove]

Gah, props to Cogito Ergo Sum for this matrix set-up, somehow I thought we had this covered through figuring out the set-up but I underestimated Sakura Hana. And she beat me by even considering the idea of row 2 in such a way. Because as opposed to me, she pulled that out of her ass. I'm seriously impressed.

These are the two options that are presented to BigTerp and pieguyn:

aptil and Grimgroove scumteam with a roleblocker, pieguyn cop and Sakura doctor

aptil and Sakura scumteam without a roleblocker, pieguyn cop.

Aptil is confscum but his lynch doesn't help us any further. What can help is look at earlier interactions between the Sakura-slot and the aptil-slot, and my slot and the aptil-slot. This is something both pieguyn and BigTerp should do. I don't want to influence that process.

What I am going to try to do is show how Sakura has been playing scummy. She is scum, so she has played scummy, and I'd like to think I'll be able to show it.

As a first step, remind yourself of the reasons what lead to her L-1 position, where she was forced into a Town Doctor claim.

About that claim I want to repeat what I said earlier: even though she got lucky (she really did, given the eventual set-up), it's still a good move for scum to not claim a VT. A VT-claim wouldn't have swayed anybody at that stage. She needed a PR. Doctor was as good as any other PR claim at that point, not only due to lasting uncertainty in the event of a counterclaim, but also due to said counterclaim giving scum important info.

Try to look past the strenght of the word "doctor".

[Grimgroove]

WIFOM, they had planned to get me mislynched today, look at how aptil didnt attempt to CC pieguy but he attempted to CC me, and right after every1 had claimed.

That argument is WIFOM. Bussing your partner is as good a strategy as trying to vote him out at this stage. aptil is confscum after his VT-claim, making any stance surrounding him and any stance by him null.

Someone should have asked you this way before, but:
1. Did you crumb your doctor role?
2. Can you point us to games where you were a town PR?

[Grimgroove]

me and aptil when aptil being scum busing me would mean insta lose but

Aptil's options were limited by the time he got here. you coached him pretty well in 646 by saying the only possible counter PR-claim is a cop.

aptil had to choose: forfeit his own game for the team's sake, or go in a head-on match against pieguyn over who's the real cop. He went for option number 1, leaving you to fight it out with me. There is nothing insta-lose about his bus, he's taking one for the team because he didn't want to CC a cop. It's a risky thing to do regardless, and you, given your lucky (argh) claim you had some town-cred you could use in this end-stage.

So all he could do was claim VT, and as a VT, you know pieguyn is speaking the truth. Just like how BigTerp knows. Just like how I know.
The reason why aptil CC'd you and not pieguyn is not because of some WIFOM strategy, like you claim in post 662, it's because it's the only option he had left apart from counterclaiming pieguyn.
Between going for me for a mislynch, or going for pieguyn, I think anybody would have made the same choice as him.

[Grimgroove]

I really think the ISOs will speak for themselves though. I seriously hope BigTerp and pieguyn will manage to be bothered.

[Grimgroove]

Now why dont I make sense as his partner, because if he goes 1v1 with me, and I get lynched assuming I flipped scum he would have to deal with piegu (conf cop) bigterp (conf town due to cop) and grim (impossible cross bus so conf town too). It makes no sense for me to be his partner and he deciding to bus me at this point, so the option is that you're his partner.

Of course it does. This is an all-or-nothing gambit that has a chance of working. The reason he's not voting you is exactly that: he wanted to keep his options open to get me lynched. In case you forgot,h e's been bussing me as well, making this entire paragraph as valid for you as for me, making it invalid in general.

[post]Why was he reserving his vote on me?[/quote]

You can go ahead, put that in the present tense. This is another coaching session. Aptil won't hammer you. He will vote you if it helps in swaying people's minds that you are indeed a doctor, but he's not going to hammer you in case two other people already voted you, because then he loses the game.

he wanted a town to vote town first for a quickhammer, however grim who's his partner voted me so he went shopping for an excuse.

What excuse would that be?

[Grimgroove]

aptil is scum. Him hammering you ends in a scum-loss...

You had to vote me anyway today, I've lade that abundantly clear, no need for the theatrics of some far-fetched scumslip.

[Grimgroove]

If you'd truly be a doctor there would be no reason at all for you to be wondering whether or not I'm scum. There would be no reason for headaches. If you were a doctor you would know for a fact I'm scum.

You did everything right, but you forgot to fake that bit.

[Grimgroove]

As a doctor, you'd have no reason at all to unvote me.

[Grimgroove]

Idk if you faked a scumslip to put aptil as town so you can take me down after I'm dead tho, that's what's giving me a headache.

what...

I never put aptil as town.
How would me faking a scumslip help my cause in any way?
How could I take you down after you're dead?

[Grimgroove]

Why else would you be wanting me to kill you off first. Nope not falling for it Imma think of who of you and aptil to lynch first so I can screw up whatever agenda you guys have.

I challenge you to come up with an agenda that would be screwed up if you lynch me first, assuming I'm scum with aptil.

[Grimgroove]

Remember I'm the one who's been pushing the me or you story. Aptil is confscum but his lynch doesn't help anybody. It's what I've beens aying time and again.

[Grimgroove]

You're full of shit Sakura. I know it so it's easy for me to see, but I'm pretty sure it's hard to miss for people in the position of BigTerp and pieguyn.

[Grimgroove]

For the record, I think the scumteam is Derivan and Sakura Hana.

*props to self*

[Grimgroove]

aptil is confscum in everyone's book, even he realizes that by now. The thing you describe exists only in fantasy.

[Grimgroove]

Ah I figured it out now, aptil's the roleblocker so he wanted to push more WIFOM after you're dead trying to tie me up with you.

Vote: aptil

You're reaching by the way. Now you're saying aptil has been pushing for my lynch?

[Grimgroove]

I've been pushing for my own lynch?

Have you seen me freak out to pieguyn in order for him to remove his vote?

[Grimgroove]

There's no way we can still be tied up together after all of this.

[Grimgroove]

I'd be fine with lynching aptil, he's a sure-fire scumkill, but I'd rather the you or me, which has to get settled eventually, gets settled now with both BigTerp and pieguyn to weigh in on it. Aptil is no longer an issue. He confirmed to being scum by claiming VT when he did.

[Grimgroove]

I think we agree on everything, you're simply not in a position to say so seeing how you need to play according to your wincon.

I fear you slipped at the top of page 28. Those doubts were not the kind of doubts a town doctor in your position would have. The way you try to explain away these doubts later down the page is not at all convincing. Only a page earlier you were convinced I was the roleblocker, explaining to pieguyn how I could mess up the plan I proposed to town's detriment. Now this has suddenly become a story of aptil disentangling himself from me and me offering myself on a platter to get lynched by him, so that he can proceed to put me and you in the same team.

Everyone should see how farfetched this is.

[Grimgroove]

You're effectively flailing.

But glad I got the idea, that would occur to town naturally, into your scummy little head eventually.

[Grimgroove]

^^ to Sakura.

[Grimgroove]

I don't need to. I already know you are scum.

[Grimgroove]

WIFOM, they had planned to get me mislynched today, look at how aptil didnt attempt to CC pieguy but he attempted to CC me, and right after every1 had claimed.

That argument is WIFOM. Bussing your partner is as good a strategy as trying to vote him out at this stage. aptil is confscum after his VT-claim, making any stance surrounding him and any stance by him null.

Someone should have asked you this way before, but:
1. Did you crumb your doctor role?
2. Can you point us to games where you were a town PR?

Why didn't you answer this, by the way?

It's mostly of use to others who are still in doubt.
If Sakura had crumbed, the doctor claim would be more believable. I'm confident she didn't crumb.
Hence question 2. MAybe in other games where she was a PR, she DID crumb. Not crmubing is not a scumtell per se (as pieguyn has shown), but if Sakura did it in another game and not here we might have some more tangible proof.

I checked her wiki, but only checked the first game where she was a town doctor. She didn't crumb there as far as I cans ee, but this was her first game and was killed in N1 after exposing herself in another way. Up to you if you want to check her other games.

Not very telling sadly. But the fact remains that Sakura didn't answer my question. That and all the other points that still stand.

If you're looking for my scum-meta, I can only offer you one game which can be found in my wiki. I played pretty well there, but I'd hate for that to be some kind of push into thinking I played well here as well so I must be scum. I play well as town too. Instead of meta'ing I'd prefer a focus on the game at hand, in which Sakura behaved like scum and I didn't.

[Grimgroove]

1. Nope, I didnt crumb my role because my crumbs are starting to become very obvious.

So that means you usually do crumb... meaning you see the benefit of crumbing.

There are millions of ways to crumb and make it not obvious. Literally. Millions.

Give an example of where a crumb bit you in the ass.

[Grimgroove]

As you can see from my wiki most of my deaths are related to either getting lynched or shot by vig, gee i wonder why.

A conclusion that benefits your purposes, but point us to the example where you crumbed, the moment where scum told you they were on to you because of that crumb, and your defense may get somewhere. Not that I expect it to go anywhere, like I said, there are millions of ways to crumb without anyone noticing unless you want to. There's more ways of crumbing then simply capitalizing letters.

If you want to crumb, you will. As a doctor it's something you want to do, given you claim to have done it before. Yet you didn't do it here.

[Grimgroove]

Hinting at the power role one has.

An easy example would be a cop making a post like this:


Catching scum is easy. Of course, you need to focus. Perhaps it would be best if we start slowly.

Capitals of the firs tletters spell COP.

Of course, this is a bad example because this crumb would be way too easy to find. But there are ingeneuous ways of doing it so you can use them as a reference you had that claim in mind from the very start of the game, pointing at you being who you claim to be.

[Grimgroove]

Also Doctor is pretty much different in playstyle to other PRs (maybe except watcher) since he doesnt want to hit scum, he wants to hit what scum wants to hit.

Irrelevant when it comes to crumbing.

[Grimgroove]

I thought of multiple things like during my catch up putting posts in disorder and making random comments on posts so that the last 2 digits could be converted to the letters D-O-C-T-O-R but i think the fact the post links were disorganized would give it away.

Still a million minus one other ways to do it.

[Grimgroove]

I don't need to check anything, I already know you're scum.

Why are you trying to convince me? Remember, I'm supposed to be scum in your book.

[Grimgroove]

By making me do the work. I'm still waiting for your example of where you crumbed and scum found out. All you gave so far is "that one game, where you were roleblocked and ASSUME scum knew what was up"...

That's not the kind of example you want to be looking for right now.

[Grimgroove]

Note to others: note how Sakura is in the defensive.

A town doctor knowing what is up would not behave like this but instead attack my play with everything she's got.

Just a little heads up while you're ISOing your way to a Sakura-lynch.

[Grimgroove]

By making me do the work. I'm still waiting for your example of where you crumbed and scum found out. All you gave so far is "that one game, where you were roleblocked and ASSUME scum knew what was up"...

That's not the kind of example you want to be looking for right now.

And why do you care? I'm supposed to be scum in your book arent you?

See, dont ask for things that you're later gonna be going "Why are you trying to convince me?"

I'm simply asking you to help me dig that hole for you.

Whatever I ask of you is not for me making up my mind, it's to help BigTerp and pieguyn to do so.

[Grimgroove]

Oh dear, I'm just going to let my meta talk for me then when others decide who to lynch.

Yes, keep self-meta'ing. What are you trying to say? You always behave like scum as town?

This meta stuff can be used either way and is not an argument. It is extremely rarely of use, and definitely not in the way you're trying to use it right now.

[Grimgroove]

Whatever, even though I feel this conversation has given some extra weight tilting to you being scum in other people's eyes, I think that even in case it didn't, the rest of this topic will speak for itself. I don't need to hide behind some contorted self-meta in order to explain my actions.

[Grimgroove]

I don't need to hide behind some contorted self-meta in order to explain my actions.

So you think i should just sit there and let myself be mislynched by you?

See this is why you guys left me alive, your plan was to get me mislynched after all.

This is all you got, isn't it?

I rest my case. It's up to BigTerp and pieguyn now. If anyone has got any questions for me, ask them please.

And whatever you do, BigTerp or pieguyn (mostly addressing the second due to what he said before about not voting Sakura), don't vote me out of "can't be arsed, don't see what's the use"-motivations. If you've got something to ask me, ask. If something I did made you think I'm scum, confront me with it. But don't just vote me just because you want to get things over with.

[Grimgroove]

kthx

A tone you'll regret later. If you'll know my position post-game you'll hopefully realize how aggravating that sounds.
Do you even know what I usually do as town? Did you bother to look that up?

and why the hell are you continuing this 1v1 for so long? you've cornered the scum already. this just screams of scum motivation to get people's votes on Sakura.

Why scum motivation? Why not town motivation?
Remember I am now in a position where I know for certain that aptil and Sakura are scum, so of course my attack on them is going to go as far as it can. I need to use everything I can to convince you she is scum. My disadvantage in this is that I know she is scum, so everything she does reeks of it.

(last time I got a guilty result on LyLo, I literally just stopped answering questions "cause you're mafia".

Exactly the reason why I don't need to meta her. I already know. That's not the point. The point is to make you realize it as well.

And in this case you're the one asking the questions, and she's the one answering the questions so you can twist her words around.)

I'm not twisting anything. The reason I was asking the questions was:

1. Because you already proclaimed a strong disinclination to do so yourself.
2. Because her answers might sway you around.

It's obvious that at the current state of affairs you're going to reach the wrong conclusion. So I need to get more content out of her.

and you still haven't defended yourself against Sakura pointing out the hole in your plan? where the hell did all your confidence go .-.

I already admitted to the plan not going to work, that's why I wanted this 1v1 between me and Sakura to happen now. I hadn't thought of the scenario with me being a roleblocker roleblocking you after aptil's lynch, simply because this isn't the case. I already gave mad props to Sakura for pulling that scenario out of her ass. It showed she's got skill instead of only luck (the doctor-claim working out so well for her).

btw, I was secretly townreading Sakura near the end of D2. the way she posted there just seemed really natural for me and leaked town intent. and before you yell at me for "secretly" townreading someone, keep in mind my top motivation was to survive till D3 and get a result on N2.

I strongly advise you re-read the thread. You turned around 180 degrees after the doctor-claim, decided to believe it, and thus altered your read. This has got nothing to do with Sakura's behavior. This has got everything to do with you not being able to get over her claim.

[Grimgroove]

So here's what I think. Despite grimgroove saying he doesnt need to meta me, he has indeed meta'd me (he'd have to otherwise how he would get me mislynched), and he knows already that I don't react well to pressure, so he left me alive and is pressuring me into forcing me to either "slip" or self-vote/hammer Because I've done it before. And he keeps deflecting back everything with "If you were doctor you were supposed to do this" BS. To BT & pieguy: I really suggest you look at the last 2 links and look at the interactions that led to the self-hammers. That's who I am, that's who I'm trying to stop being... pressure gets to me as either alignment and it's no coincidence he's using that weapon to his advantage.

I'll leave it up to you, I'm tired of arguing with him, hope you guys can make the right decission.

This is an Appeal to Emotion plain and simple.

Does anyone seriously think any town, no matter how emotional, would self-hammer in a LyLo? And even if so: do you seriously expect any scum-plan to rely on that?

I didn't meta you. You are using self-meta and emotional play to run to your defense, two of the scummiest ways of defending yourself.

[Grimgroove]

and you wonder why I think you have motivation to twist her words around..

What the fuck?
She says I'm trying to get her to self-hammer, literally, in 736. LITERALLY.
I didn't twist anything.
This is LyLo, is it not?
So my supposed scum-plan for her to hammer herself, as she portrays it in that post, involves her self-hammering in LyLo.

[Grimgroove]

in fact my townread on her was quite a bit before her Doctor claim

That's not what this post says to me:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p5360185

You're even lying to yourself in order to make yourself at peace with a decision that should be obviously wrong. You had your head in the wrong place ever since this day started.

And the kthx is aggravating because it shows the lack of care that will lose us this game.

You haven't re-read the thread. I feel it in what you say. If you had re-read it, you'd know for instance your own altered read on Sakura came after her claim.

You're lazy town. And town will pay the price for it if you don't change that attitude.

[Grimgroove]

You won't need BigTerp to lynch me. If you want to lynch me, you can already vote me now and aptil will finish the job. GG scum and thanks for all the bullshit.

I'm not going to get into how bad your play is here. It's something to be reserved for post-game (I won't be able to be bothered, IC's job I think). But the way you're defending your own play here is laughable. Keeping someone at L-1 until she claims, all in order to keep your read a secret. As if that read of yours on Sakura would get you shot...

Meh.

You're only fooling yourself into having played well here.

[Grimgroove]

I'll protect pieguy tonight just in case. But chances are im gonna be blocked if we hit the goon.

Lame. Post-game fooling around like that shows poor sportsmanship.


Good game scum.

Nothing else to add. Too dissappointed.

[Grimgroove]

if he turns up roleblocker, then I'll check Sakura and Sakura docs me

Retarded.

[Grimgroove]

You won. No need to do this, seriously. I think it's even in some code of conduct somewhere. Should be at least.

I'll get over it. Pity I wasn't there when BigTerp came back. I really thought my interactions with both you/Catclancer and Derivan spoke for themselves when it came to the impossibility of me being in the scumteam with either.

The bond established with pieguyn in the beginning of this game can be considered broken. But count on me to have forgotten about the ordeal next time we play together pieguyn, I know this is mainly me and dissappointment talking.

[Grimgroove]

I actually haven't heared any argument of my play being scum at all though. I was lynched only on the basis of a scenario that was somehow considered more believable. You can blame that on the luck Sakura had when choosing to claim a doctor, but I think I gave enough reasons to re-assess that.

The only thing I'm willing to remember from this game is my post 452.

Scum wasn't only lucky with that doc-claim by the way. The fact the other scumslot needed continuous replacement ensured a bumpless ride to victory. There was no way to get a read on that slot as it wasn't involved in the game at all.

[Grimgroove]

Most painful part is you only needed one scumvote to get it done.

[Grimgroove]

I wonder what people who've been following this game will have to say about it. Maybe I'm not being hard enough on myself, I usually obvtown as town and given your surprise I obviously haven't done so here.

[Grimgroove]

I really wonder where that scumread on me came from. It has never beene xplained by anyone as far as I can recall.

[Grimgroove]

Even the moderator was scumreading me.

[Grimgroove]

You obviously were, otherwise you wouldn't have been here to reply.

[Grimgroove]

Oh also one more thing.
When you have a confirmed scum, always lynch him first.

I felt it was better to keep as much topwn palyers around as possible. I think it's more difficult for two scum to influence two town players than for one scum to influence one.

I did count on BigTerp to read me as town though, in turn convincing pieguyn I'm town as well. Sadly, it worked the other way around.

Not a big difference in the end, if it's what pieguyn decided now, it's what he'd have decided in the next stage as well. Same for BigTerp. As a VT I had only my dayposts to speak for me, and I gave it all I got during Day 3.

The only difference is that scum now got a perfect win despite town knowing of a confscum, but that doesn't matter in my wiki-overview.

Got to admit the lynch stings as hell though. Bah.

[Grimgroove]

For the record, you weren't terrible, you came across as obvious town in your posts which is what you want to be doing, plus (and this is the best part of your play) you managed to live to day 3 as the cop, which is an awesome feat.

tho it doesn't matter if when I finally get a correct scumread on someone I end up changing it to a townread by then

plz don't get too mad at me Grimgroove T_T srsly I feel so bad at fking this up. I don't want the bond we had ever since the first page to be broken.

I'm not angry Honest mistake.
My anger was limited during the course of the game, due to frustration of not being believed.
Now that it can't be changed anymore I've made my peace with the situation, and with you.

And hey, for all that bonding, me being the first to vote you, you being the first to vote me, you can also add you being the first to hammer me on that list