Newbie 1428 Game Over

[Ravenpaw]

First of all, I'm a

girl

. I'd like you all to get that straight.

Second of all, my vote was quite serious. I didn't not explain it because I wanted a reaction from Raven and from the town.

What did my reaction tell you? And what did the other's reactions tell you?
(Oh no! More questions! Wtf Ravenpaw!)

I fucking hate posting from my phone.

WHY RAVENPAW IS SCUM

by Banksys Flareon

This post is scummy as fuck. This is not a person scumhunting, this is a person fabricating a plausible wagon and sticking to it with each new post.

Seems like someone missed the last few pages as my vote is not even on Big anymore and I've been defending him now, so who's fabricating stuff again? <- don't worry dear this is a rhetorical question, so you don't have to stress about giving me an answer.

Big's meaning with the L-1/L-2 thing was obvious and obviously town.

How was it obvious town?
Also if it was

so obvious

Banksy why did you never say anything at the time?
Oh wait, asking just questions is bad play, here let me throw in some statements too to please the masses: Banksy sat back and let Big be attacked even though she believed he was obvious town and that his posts were obvious in what he was saying. She never said a peep.

You feel like you caught him in a contradiction, which is a god send for scum. It means you get to sit back and post all kinds of meaningless content and you can sit back and ask benign questions about random people's reads and look like town for doing it.

What meaningless content have I posted? And how have I been sitting back?
Because I haven't, my content has been good for getting reads and producing discussion. And I have not sat back at all.
Also, given that I have dropped the contradiction thing, your attack above is baseless.

Oh, missed that:
@Ravenpaw:

And the reason I asked about Dyslexicon is 1. to pull you out of your unilateral questioning-status

and 2. because I think he made the most memorable action of the first two pages and should be worth everyone's consideration.
His vote showed a certain carelessness that I'd associate with a town-mindset rather than a scummy one, but his reaction to when he finds out he put someone at L-1 sounded a bit too off-hand.

YES.

I find it quite amusing that there are people getting so caught up in my asking of questions, would you guys have rather I had posted fluff instead? or maybe just declare a V/LA for the first few pages? Woops! I'm asking questions again! Silly scummy Ravenpaw

This uneasiness about my style actually pings my scumdar hard because I can't understand why a townie would get so hot and bothered by it...

At the end of this post, you suddenly move Big to "your town pile," but you're vote says on him for a long time to come. I also encourage everyone to read the earlier parts of this post to see if they gel with what I said about the previous one.

LOL,

this a blatant misrep

! I unvoted him in the same time frame (look at the posts, it's 4 minutes between them). I actually originally had unvoted him in that post but I decided to make it clearer by doing the unvote and new vote in a separate post at the end.
You obviously just went through my iso trying to pick out anything you could to paint as scummy, not even considering the context.

~
By the way, I'm very good at recognising when a scum is making a case on me, and this feels like one of those times.

But wait! Now pieguyn has posted something that can be made into utterly meaningless accusations! Pie explained himself. You act like he didn't. Now you get to ride through a few more posts of abundant and useLess content. You are scum madam (and i know I called you he earlier and I feel really bad about that).

I didn't act like he didn't, I didn't like the explanation. And how have my accusations been meaningless? I've explained why I think what he did was scummy.

Your comment at the end here is very interesting though, seeing as it was Pie that called me a he, not you. Explain this now please.

[Ravenpaw]

okay first of all my read from the whole L - 1 situation was on Michael Wolf not Dys

Alright my mistake, still, the point holds.

Second, this isn't the same kind of situation. I already gave my reason for voting someone else besides BigTerp. If I voted BigTerp, we wouldn't get anywhere at all cause it'd end up being the same result as if I didn't (he defends himself and we all move onto someone else).

How do you mean it'd end up being the same result? You knew that Big would be able to defend himself and we'd move onto someone else? This only makes sense if you already would've known before hand that Big is town.

This way, we now know more about what happened with Banksys. as I said before, being OK with L - 1 doesn't mean putting someone at L - 1 every single time

You are misinterpreting my case. My point on you was that you were happy to discredit someone else for being hesitant about L-1, but then you later would display this same hesitation.

But you never explained it, you just said Cheery was town. How is that a good read? And of course there’s a need to ask about something that you said, we need to know whether your reads are coming from a good or bad place.

sorry for confusion, that was about BigTerp not Cheery

Ok, but how on earth anyone is meant to know you were talking about Big in the second part here blows my mind:

BigTerp already had a lot of votes so I figured it was better to vote someone with no votes to get more discussion going. incidentally my read ended up being completely useless

Huh? Why did you say Cheery was town then?

cause he is

btw, IMO mine was a good read and no one had brought it up yet. for something like that which is based off objective stuff that already happened, there's no need to ask about it cause it's all there already

Why are you assuming that Banksy’s vote is a reaction test? Especially considering he says that he is being serious, so I don’t think it is.

it's not the intent that's the same, its' the action. oh look it ended up being a reaction test anyway

Nope, Bansky explicity said that the vote is serious.

And what do you mean neither of them pointed it out? I asked Banksy “why?” which is a very similar response to what Dyslexi and I did to your comment.
You are making up stuff.

And I am a she.

sorry missed both of those = =

This is funny coming from a guy who'd earlier said that people need to make sure to read the thread properly.

also one more thing

Both gave general blanket statements about why you’re suspicious, yet made no move to vote you or try to scumhunt you to extrapolate more information.

why should I scumhunt someone who already has like 3 people scumhunting him instead of letting a possible scum go by unnoticed? The more varied discussion we have, the better I say.

That's a fair point, but it felt like you didn't want to get any further info from him and were happy to just back and sling mud.

[Ravenpaw]

The bolded thing was a tongue-in-cheeck reference to the question-stream-style Ravenpaw adopts.

Lol, okay darling

Didn't mean to be mean, just so you know. I don't really have problems with your playstyle as such, but in this case your questions, the sheer amount of them, is so overwhelming it occupies most of the people's time. Time isn't endless. All the time spent on answering to your walls with walls, is time not spent on hunting scum. The walls themselves provide another hurdle to do as such.

Now I am the last who should be complaining about walls, but I do try to keep some form of overview, be it through reads list, some general conclusion... Yet I don't see you do that. You ask 100 questions, and based on the 100 answers, you ask 200 more questions. Out of the answers you get you make a selection, you make a read, but it is very, very difficult to follow it all. If you're town, it would help us, and yourself, a lot to make some post where your main findings are summarized + main and secondary reasons for those findings.

I did this with Pie (post #90), I summarised why he was my number 1 suspect, and given it was only page 4 I'm not sure how you can expect anything more than that.
As the day goes on and my reads become better the walls will slow down, especially now with this Banksy lead (I have a good feeling on this one).

Banksys Flareon put it much more eloquently (and shorter) than I could, and I agree with her statement wholeheartedly. I too, think you're scum. The accusations you've put forward so far seem meaningless. This is something i could not get from your interactions with others (due to the enormous amount of reading this involves), but your interactions with me. The way you ALWAYS add a question of your own when you answer a question of mine comes off as extremely defensive, and is very tiring for anyone who wants to interogate you. Despite you saying you love answering questions, this is not the impression you're giving me.

It's because I have been trying to get reads for crying out loud. Interacting one on one with someone is the best way to do this, and you even point this out yourself. At the start of this game I've had difficulty getting a solid scum read which is why I was asking questions because I wanted more information out there. I thought I found something in Big which is why I started tunneling him, it turns out I was wrong there (and due to recent events, I'd say I'm right on my read of Big right now).
And you're misrepping me again Grim, you say I ALWAYS add a question when I answer you, but this is incorrect, anyone reading my posts can see this. And the reason I did ask you questions is because I am trying to figure out your alignment. For instance, the most recent case you asked me to point out which of my questions have been most helpful and I gave you an answer, and because I vehemently disagree that I've been unhelpful I wished for you to provide examples of my posts that have been unhelpful, which is why I asked you to do that. Do you understand where I'm coming from with this?

So basically you think I'm scum because I am asking too many questions and this is coming off as being defensive right? This is wrong because even if I was scum, why should I be defensive for? There was never any pressure on me before this and I could've just sat my vote on Big, and let Cheery and Dyslex carry that case for me. But I haven't. I've put my self out there and exposed myself to this situation, why would scumRaven do that for?
For the record, Banksy's case on me is terribad, it is full of generalisations and blatant misreps.

[Banksys Flareon]

Caught scum is flaily scum.

1) you probably should not be an SE until you have a few more games under your belt. There are clearly basic concepts of mafia which elude you, or you're pretending not to know in order to defend yourself.

2) Example of the above: It is anti-town to explain town reads, and it is CERTAINLY anti-town to defend someone.

3) I am not accusing you of trying to get a Big lynch. I'm accusing you of having a primary motivation of wishing to appear town rather than to catch scum. I will generalize happily and trust the town to get my meaning. Individually parsing out each sentence would be a waste of time.

4) You are either a "terribad" player, to use your shitty word, or you are scum. Who knows? Maybe over the course of twenty pages I'll decide that actually do just not realize that you're play sucks, but you're well-intentioned nonetheless. Not likely.

5) Scum do well to ask lots of questions, change their reads frequently, and have all of this neatly packaged in long, pro-town posts full of content. When a townie fucks up, scum can go on for pages looking like their making themselves useful.

6) you're doing it again. Do you really imagine that me apologizing for calling you a he was a mistake? I'll let you go find it now, maybe I'm completely deluding myself and it never happened. What then? Are you going to hound me for pages and pages asking me why? The comment I made was not "very interesting" as you said, it was utterly disinteresting (but only if you're a townie).

Now I would like to see a LOT more votes on Raven, and @Raven: Walls will be read but not respond to.

Cheers

[Ravenpaw]

Caught scum is flaily scum.

Ha! I predicted I'd see a comment like this. Predictable scum is predictable.

1) you probably should not be an SE until you have a few more games under your belt. There are clearly basic concepts of mafia which elude you, or you're pretending not to know in order to defend yourself.

Nope, SEs just need two completed newbie games and one outside RTR.
This point of yours was completely irrelevant btw, bad attempt at discrediting me much?

2) Example of the above: It is anti-town to explain town reads, and it is CERTAINLY anti-town to defend someone.

How is it anti-town? In fact it is the complete opposite! Explaining your thoughts and reads are good as it allows the other townies to understand your reasoning and find fellow town. Defending your town reads is also good as it stops mislynches.
Hey Cheery, Grim and Dsy seeing as you guys are all experienced what do you make of Banksys' above claim?

3) I am not accusing you of trying to get a Big lynch. I'm accusing you of having a primary motivation of wishing to appear town rather than to catch scum. I will generalize happily and trust the town to get my meaning. Individually parsing out each sentence would be a waste of time.

How was my tunneling on Big an attempt to appear town?

4) You are either a "terribad" player, to use your shitty word, or you are scum. Who knows? Maybe over the course of twenty pages I'll decide that actually do just not realize that you're play sucks, but you're well-intentioned nonetheless. Not likely.

Well I have had someone ask me before if I had a medical condition (I was town there), so who knows maybe I really am terribad.
And I love the word terribad so sue me.
I appreciate the loaded question though, keep it up.

5) Scum do well to ask lots of questions, change their reads frequently, and have all of this neatly packaged in long, pro-town posts full of content. When a townie fucks up, scum can go on for pages looking like their making themselves useful.

Town also ask questions, town also change their reads, and town also make long posts.

6) you're doing it again. Do you really imagine that me apologizing for calling you a he was a mistake? I'll let you go find it now, maybe I'm completely deluding myself and it never happened. What then? Are you going to hound me for pages and pages asking me why? The comment I made was not "very interesting" as you said, it was utterly disinteresting (but only if you're a townie).

I did look for it and you never did, so you are a blatant liar.
And if it was so uninteresting why even bring it up? You obviously felt it was important, you even said you felt "really bad" for calling me a he. So how can you even have felt that when it never happened? That's why it needs explaining. Pie said something, which you later apologised as something that you did, but you never did call me a he. Stop being wishy washy about this.

Now I would like to see a LOT more votes on Raven, and @Raven: Walls will be read but not respond to.

Cheers

I understand, you are afraid of me because I have just completely owned your "case" and exposed your scumminess, cheers.

[Ravenpaw]

Finally!

Unvote: Pieguy
Vote: Banksys Flareon

I still lean scum on Pie but this read here is far stronger.
Banksy is scum, and I am very confident of this.
Look at her case on me, she can't explain any of the generalisations she said about me and instead waffles about how explaining reads and defending people is anti-town, even though it is not. She throws a blatant misrep at me, which she never answered to. She also never explains why she didn't say anything at the time about how obvious town Big terp was, this reeks of hypocrisy as she was saying before that I've just been sitting back. And she never explained her "reaction test" and what the point of it was.

Also that point about the "he" is utterly bewildering. Why would she apologise and say she felt very bad about something earlier that Pie did and not her? It makes no sense and her flailing over it is very scummy.

[Cat Clancer]

Good lord, Raven, you have a giant wall of text, but scum-hunting and PLENTY of reasoning behind it is always good.

Unlike the main scum reads here (pie, Ban), who don't explain that much to begin with.

I'm with you Raven, on that those both are my top scum reads, and possibly are together, I'll keep my vote the way it is for now until I see his further responses.

[Grimgroove]

I think the only way to get through this thread is to get high. BRB.

[Grimgroove]

ravenpaw is scum

VOTE: Ravenpaw[/quote]

I'll explainj tomorrow.

[Grimgroove]

:DD.D

KIK

[Banksys Flareon]

I see nothing in your most recent wall worth responding to. You seen comfortable with an OMGUS strategy, so I'll let the rest of the town decide what they think of that.

However, since this is a newbie game, and you are clearly a newbie, I will explain some mafia theory to you.

It is anti town to explain town reads (some people refuse to give them at all) because it gives scum information as to how to appear town in this specific game. It doesnt help us scum hunt. Town reads are meaningless and easily changed. All they serve to do is create clutter, meaningless content in which scum can hide and participate. "Posting content is good!" is the eternal cry of all newbies who don't know what the fuck they're talking about. Any player, scum or otherwise, can post lots of content and be a little angel of organization and helpfulness. You are not that, but you seem to be trying to be.

As far as your OMGUS vote and my lack of having called you "he," you do what you think is best. I distinctly remember calling you he at some point, but if I didn't I guess you'd better lynch me.

@Cat Clancer: We don't need two idiots. Reread.

[Banksys Flareon]

Good Grimgroove. You're Grooving nicely

[Grimgroove]

I see nothing in your most recent wall worth responding to.

I love this person

[Grimgroove]

I see nothing in your most recent wall worth responding to. You seen comfortable with an OMGUS strategy, so I'll let the rest of the town decide what they think of that.

However, since this is a newbie game, and you are clearly a newbie, I will explain some mafia theory to you.

It is anti town to explain town reads (some people refuse to give them at all) because it gives scum information as to how to appear town in this specific game. It doesnt help us scum hunt. Town reads are meaningless and easily changed. All they serve to do is create clutter, meaningless content in which scum can hide and participate. "Posting content is good!" is the eternal cry of all newbies who don't know what the fuck they're talking about. Any player, scum or otherwise, can post lots of content and be a little angel of organization and helpfulness. You are not that, but you seem to be trying to be.

As far as your OMGUS vote and my lack of having called you "he," you do what you think is best. I distinctly remember calling you he at some point, but if I didn't I guess you'd better lynch me.

@Cat Clancer: We don't need two idiots. Reread.

:DDDD

[Cat Clancer]

We also don't need animosity, either.

Insulting people will make them less willing to saddle up with your reads.
Don't be a jerk to people who are learning the game.

[Banksys Flareon]

I trust you to figure out your own way despite me and my rudeness. If you don't like the way I play then you're perfectly entitled to keep voting me.

If, however, you are town and would like to win, then I would encourage you to read Raven more clearly. Her latest post is even more flailing than the last.

[Dyslexicon]

Nananana... I don't see anything in Banksys's case on Raven that's too convincing. She asks a lot of questions, yes. This she can do as both town and scum. I still stand by that her questions are making sense to me, and I'd ask more or less the same things I think in her position, I think. So still a townish read to me because of that. Banksys is as fiery as her avatar. I don't understand how she's so sure on her read on Raven though, seems kind of random. It's pretty out there and that's why I think this could just as well be town on town, as she wouldn't need to get that much attention. However, there are serious flaws in her case, including the misrep of when Raven changed her vote from Big, and I don't get how Big was so obviously town in the first place (obviously neither me or Cheery thought that either).

In regards to the this and that is anti-town, I generally don't like the mindset that there's one way to play mafia, or even one best way to play mafia. It all depends on both the game and the players. It's way too many variables, so the claim that it's anti-town to give town reads becomes rather meaningless to me. And even if there was a bunch of golden rules, the imperfections and variation that does occur is half of the fun anyways. At least imo, but this is kind of unrelated.

ravenpaw is scum

VOTE: Ravenpaw

I'll explainj tomorrow.[/quote]
Does this include moar reasons than what Fire is providing? Cause I don't see it.

---

Eh... kind of undecided atm. Would like to hear more from the more silent ones.

[BigTerp]

Holy hell!! Alot of shit to sift through. Sorry for being away. I need to go back through the last 3 or four pages that i missed. Will definitely be more active the rest of the week.

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 1.05

BigTerp - 2 - Cheery Dog, Dyslexicon
Banksys Flareon - 1 - Ravenpaw
Cat Clancer - 1 - pieguyn
Michael_Wolf - 1 - BigTerp
pieguyn - 1 - Cat Clancer
Ravenpaw - 1 - Banksys Flareon

Not Voting: Michael_Wolf, Grimgroove

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2013-09-11 03:15:51)

[Banksys Flareon]

@Mod: Grimgroove messed up his tags, but he's voting Ravenpaw too.

[Cat Clancer]

If you notice, I don't have a vote. I don't intend to at the moment.

Trust me, I'm reading all the posts and doing my own ISO's. I'm merely pointing out that being rude might not be the best strategy. But to each their own.

And, implying that I wouldn't be town if I DIDN'T see Raven as scum is a tad harsh, no?

Interesting approach.

[pieguyn]

...wow those posts @_@

Ravenpaw I'm not even going to respond to that cause it seems you didn't read anything I said. ok I will but just this once <3

How do you mean it'd end up being the same result? You knew that Big would be able to defend himself and we'd move onto someone else? This only makes sense if you already would've known before hand that Big is town.

er no. I meant we'd just get the same discussion as before instead of new discussion, which you said was a fair point. mb that ^ was a poor wording

Nope, Bansky explicity said that the vote is serious.

I meant the action was the same. the action = stating someone as a certain alignment.

My point on you was that you were happy to discredit someone else for being hesitant about L-1, but then you later would display this same hesitation.

for the 230489th time,

I was not hesitant about L - 1

I voted someone else to get some different discussion going. you admitted this is a fair point so I don't understand why you're even saying this right here

This is funny coming from a guy who'd earlier said that people need to make sure to read the thread properly.

where

Ok, but how on earth anyone is meant to know you were talking about Big in the second part here blows my mind:

sorry for confusion > < I'm used to playing on another website, so the change of pace/playstyle/etc. kind of disoriented me a bit. yeah I'm completely pulling the newbie card ;D

Because I haven't, my content has been good for getting reads and producing discussion. And I have not sat back at all.

just saying, the only discussion so far has been people constantly defending themselves re: your questions

Cat Clancer you still haven't answered any of my questions, just saying

[Banksys Flareon]

Raven's motto is "From one thing, say ten thousand things." It's an unsettling perversion of Musashi.

@Dyslexicon: Look in the mafia wiki about scum created content. In newbie games especially, generating content is misregarded as a strong town tell, giving scum motivation to do it. Yes, townies do that too. However, the kind of content being generated by Ravenpaw is not scum hunting. She is literally shooting for maximum content and responding to every sentence that could be responded to.

Secondly, her shit is scummy. The people she calls out and the way she calls them out screams of manufactured reasoning. Now maybe she is just a bad town player and thinks this is what she should be doing to help the town, but I see too much ego in it for that.

[Cheery Dog]

So he's a lesser scum read for you then before?
And what do you make of Cat's and my cases on Pie as scum?

That is how logic works, yes.
I think pie is likely town at present.
While I think these type of reaction tests I'm basing the main part of this read on generally drag out longer before they're called out as such, but I still think it's the same attitude that comes from a town mindset. If it's happening later in the game, then maybe not so much, but right now I'm not seeing scum from the proclamation.
I'm also not seeing anything else he has written as that scummy.

WHY RAVENPAW IS SCUM

by Banksys Flareon

This post is scummy as fuck. This is not a person scumhunting, this is a person fabricating a plausible wagon and sticking to it with each new post. Big's meaning with the L-1/L-2 thing was obvious and obviously town. You feel like you caught him in a contradiction, which is a god send for scum. It means you get to sit back and post all kinds of meaningless content and you can sit back and ask benign questions about random people's reads and look like town for doing it. This is bullshit.

Over-confiendent newbie, interesting.

I don't think that gives any alignment tells on Blanksys, but it doesn't make me want to follow.
I may have to do a meta search (which I'm unlikely to have time for, and probably fail at in any case), but Banksys's attacks here feel playstyle based.

2) Example of the above: It is anti-town to explain town reads, and it is CERTAINLY anti-town to defend someone.

Are there scum motivations and only scum motivations behind people doing these?
I thought not..

As long as you're not doing the entiety of the defend for them and not actually examining the attacker, then there is no problem with people defending people.
It's also a viable strategy to get scum caught via PoE, which means explaining your town reads and reasons.

As for your later explanation as to why you believe these to be anti-town, scum are usually cleverer than just following the town. They can make their own connections about how they should be appearing town. (it's a slightly better argument than usual of scum knowing where to direct their kill that I usually hear from people saying for why town reads are bad, but only just - well at least different). Yes, the early stage is arguably the most dangerous part of the game for scum since they haven't figured that all out yet, but not explaining town reads isn't going to change that fact or extend that vulnerable stage any longer.

I'd like to see them try replicating whatever it is that is putting people on my townread list. This can involve me explaining these reads as it already has with pieguy. But reads as specific to the individual, the fact of explaining them is for other town members, there are more of them than scum, and I hate seeing my fellow town members lynched when I have a town read on them.

Also that point about the "he" is utterly bewildering. Why would she apologise and say she felt very bad about something earlier that Pie did and not her? It makes no sense and her flailing over it is very scummy.

Why does this matter to either of you? Can everybody just drop gender problems, they don't help us scumhunt.

The vote that was in that post is making me consider possible bussing between Banksys and Raven though.

[Banksys Flareon]

Over-confiendent newbie, interesting.

Oh, but honey, based on your join date I've been playing four times as long as you. I just don't want to reveal my original account Also I've been gone for a while, hence the new account and newbie game, though this is not the only game I'm in.

Now revise your post with the assumption that I know at least as much about this game as you do. Explanations of your theory (which I assure you are not commonly held, at least among my generation) are of no use to me at all.

I don't give a shit if you think I'm bussing. Lynch one of us, and if we're scum then you can talk about bussing.

Are there scum motivations and only scum motivations behind people doing these?
I thought not..

This part is useful to me. Yes, in Raven's case this is scum motivated. Discussion of "every case" is irrelevant. I understand you have a teaching role here, but try to stay on topic. Is this your first IC game?

You should read Go Rin No Sho. It would improve your play and keep you on topic. (This is a serious suggestion. I'm not being condescending.)