Newbie 1428 Game Over

[Cat Clancer]

Well, not upset, poor wording.
The fact that's the only thing you're going to point out and not nothing else makes me even more suspicious.

[pieguyn]

oh oops, given a lot of it was me not answering why I kept saying Cheery was town it slipped my mind

Has yet to follow up on question, will have to see if answers.

er, can you link plz? I've looked through the thread trying to find anything besides the above ^ and I didn't see anything, mb I just missed it

Coming to the defense of another player, also seeing a quick hammer as not a bad move for various reasons.

quickhammer != L - 1. I was thinking no one would quickhammer in that scenario. ofc we saw proof that's wrong @_@

Still more on Bigterp, really set on this guy.

cause people asked me to elaborate. nice misrep again

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 1.04

BigTerp - 2 - Cheery Dog, Dyslexicon
pieguyn - 2 - Ravenpaw, Cat Clancer
Dyslexicon - 1 - pieguyn
Michael_Wolf - 1 - BigTerp
Ravenpaw - 1 - Banksys Flareon

Not Voting: Michael_Wolf, Grimgroove

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2013-09-11 03:15:51)

[BigTerp]

Sorry guys. Super busy weekend. I'll try and get caught up this evening.

[Cheery Dog]

okay, seems my idea didn't work out exactly the way I wanted. I wanted to see how everyone would react to me saying someone was town and not saying what the reason was. Dyslexicon and Ravenpaw seemed to point it out almost immediately, but then Banksys did the same thing here

I like this for town motivation, even though I don't think it does much.
Rarely see scum attempt to perform reaction tests.

[Cat Clancer]

Post #83, unless another "misrep".

[Ravenpaw]

My wall reply to Grim is just so amazingly awesome it has to be spoilered to preserve its awesomeness

Spoiler:

Could be, but Cheery, myself and Dyslexi were all pushing you for answers, and that discussion has been good for creating more information and getting us away from RVS. If you are town I’d say that Grim’s and Pie’s reaction to you were the most scum like. Both gave general blanket statements about why you’re suspicious, yet made no move to vote you or try to scumhunt you to extrapolate more information. That is pretty scummy from my pov and it should be from yours too if you’re town.

Don't give yourself too much towncred. Like I said before, you have assumed a position of unilateral questioning where you ask a barrage of questions to everyone in a seemingly, and I'd say obviously, random way.

You are misepping me, I have not asked everyone questions.
And no, the questions are not random. We were in the start of the game, I had no reads, so that's how I get my reads by asking questions, and continuously prodding at people to see how they are thinking and to look for a scum motive behind those thoughts. It's how I scumhunt, sorry if this offends you Grim.

While the effort is applaudable, juxtaposting your inquisitive behavior with my observational one as one being town and one being scum is too easy. Anyone can ask questions, what is truly important is the leap from those questions to an actual case. Suffice to say I do not like your leap.

Ok, well I was finding your observational behaviour suspicious so I called you out for it.

Tell me, what three questions that asked were by you of the most help to you, and should be of particular help to all of us, and why?

Well, any of my questions to Bigterp because my interrogating of him has let his townieness shine through, so yes they have been helpful to me.
And of particular help to all of you? Well I don't want to help 2 of you, so to the 6 others hopefully they can follow my thoughts and actions to see where I'm coming from.

Tell me Grim, what questions of mine have you found unhelpful?

I see for instance you asked me for "my thoughts" on BigTerp, a question that I answered with an observation of his nervousness. You skillfully (and from my PoV I'd say: maliciously) skew this into me making "blanket statements", but tell me, is there anything disagreeable with my statement that BigTerp is acting nervous? And that nervousness is a nulltell?

The posts you quoted I don’t think he sounded nervous which is why I wanted you to explain how they were.
I guess townies can get nervous just as scum do, especially when there's a bunch of people throwing accusations at them and they just want them to leave them alone, but frankly I have not played enough games to be able to confidently say that I have it as a nulltell in my big book of tells.

Reads in the beginning of the game are trivial because they per definition rely on gut, and it is very easy to backpedal out of them if you need to because of that.

Reads aren't trivial if the person giving them is scum, for instance what if Big was lynched and flipped scum? Then that read would be a lot more important then what it is currently.
I agree that it's easy to backpedal out of a gut read though.

"Nervousness" can't really be quoted, and certainly not exactly and in parts. It's an atmosphere created by the totality of words. His post 58 starts with an apologetic acquiescence, which shows a feeling of inferiority, in turn showing a feeling of nervousness. This is followed by an unnatural dissertation on the difference between L-2 and L-1. First he insists on the two being very different, then he reverts a bit by saying he doesn't mind either of them, but then after the comma exclaims more fondness for L-2, distancing himself yet again from L-1. I see no need for this distancing, yet he does, meaning it's an emotional response. Why give an emotional response over something so trivial? Nervousness.
In 59 with his read on Cheery Dog, there's just too many "but"'s. This transparent second-guessing does not give an air of calmness.

I like this explanation, but eh, I guess I read it differently.
I don't think Big is scum though, his response about wanting to scumhunt and instead getting caught up in the frustration of defending himself didn't sound like fake scum talk to me. Also his comment about how we were barking up the wrong tree is something I've said as town, so I can relate to that feeling.

You asked me for my thoughts and I gave them. You didn't ask for a "stance".

Oh come on, really? It should've been obvious when asking for thoughts that it implied what your position was on them.

My position was the he seemed nervous. This wasn't good enough for you, but it is what I was thinking, so I answered your question right from the start as far as I'm concerned.

K.

Oh, missed that:
@Ravenpaw:
And the reason I asked about Dyslexicon is 1. to pull you out of your unilateral questioning-status

This is a weird reason.

I disagree. I would like to avoid a situation where someone positions themselves as a townleader through questioning rather than through answering.

I am not trying to position myself as town leader. And I'm happy to answer questions, in fact I love answering them. Feed me more.

and 2. because I think he made the most memorable action of the first two pages and should be worth everyone's consideration.
His vote showed a certain carelessness that I'd associate with a town-mindset rather than a scummy one, but his reaction to when he finds out he put someone at L-1 sounded a bit too off-hand.

Hmm I guess I can see that, but his other posts have been good, you agree/disagree?

I disagree. You're going to ask "Why?" now, aren't you? In post 32 he succesfully switched from the defensive stance to the attacking one, but the latter still feels more like a first line of defense rather than a true scumhunt.

Yes it feels like a defense, but it looks to me like Dyslexi was trying to get Big terp to see that his actions did not have scum intent, asking that question was to try and get him to clarify the scum motive in what he did.

Also Grim, why aren’t you voting?

I haven't got a clear preference right now, I was considering voting Cheery Dog after my "sticks and dogs"-post, but I didn't feel it warranted an L-1.
I will apply pressure as soon as I do have a preference.

K.

BigTerp already had a lot of votes so I figured it was better to vote someone with no votes to get more discussion going. incidentally my read ended up being completely useless

I'm not following your thought process at all with this, and my conclusion for why this is is because you have a scum thought process.
Okay so you originally stated this:

I don't see anything wrong with L - 1 so soon as long as no one hammers (which shouldn't happen if people read the thread), so imo that seems like he's just trying to blend in and seem town

So you said this and then later on you say that Big is your number 1 scum read (who was at L-2), but you don't vote him, instead choosing to just vote someone who was lurking.

You are now saying that Big already had a lot of votes, so you put your vote on someone else for more discussion.
However, why say that there's nothing wrong with L-1 early on and that Dys' reaction was a bad one as he was just trying to seem town, when you have now done

the same action yourself

? You didn't vote Big and I feel it was because you were afraid to L-1 him even though you'd already claimed there is nothing wrong with it.
All the negative energy towards putting someone to L-1 in this thread, I believe, has made scum hesitant to do that and I believe that is why you didn't do an action that you previously claimed was fine in your books and that people who had a problem with it were suspicious.

Huh? Why did you say Cheery was town then?

cause he is

btw, IMO mine was a good read and no one had brought it up yet. for something like that which is based off objective stuff that already happened, there's no need to ask about it cause it's all there already

But you never explained it, you just said Cheery was town. How is that a good read? And of course there’s a need to ask about something that you said, we need to know whether your reads are coming from a good or bad place.

[Ravenpaw]

@CheeryDog: I would love to hear your most recent opinions on Ravenpaw and Dyslexicon

I haven't had any really, which is fail on my part, but nothing has triggered me either way (which is how they've mostly be ignored so far)

@Cheery- what are your thoughts on Big's recent posts?

Post 71 had some town feeling towards it, otherwise I'm still leaning scum.

So he's a lesser scum read for you then before?
And what do you make of Cat's and my cases on Pie as scum?

The bolded thing was a tongue-in-cheeck reference to the question-stream-style Ravenpaw adopts.

Lol, okay darling

[Ravenpaw]

What's this objective stuff? I still don't get your reasoning.

maybe I chose the wrong word orz
What I meant was, instead of asking questions to figure out why he did something, he did something where the reason behind it seems pretty obvious already.

Also, upset no one has followed up on his wagon.

where? I was never upset, nor was there a need to be, cause my idea was completely wrong in the first place. nice misrep there

okay

vote: Dyslexicon

okay, seems my idea didn't work out exactly the way I wanted. I wanted to see how everyone would react to me saying someone was town and not saying what the reason was. Dyslexicon and Ravenpaw seemed to point it out almost immediately, but then Banksys did the same thing here

Ravenpaw is scum.

VOTE: Ravenpaw

(Yes, I am entirely serious).

Neither of them pointed it out even though it's practically the same thing with a vote attached. Ravenpaw is the one who got accused so seems he can be excused for that for now. Dyslexicon, what's your opinion on this?

Why are you assuming that Banksy’s vote is a reaction test? Especially considering he says that he is being serious, so I don’t think it is.

And what do you mean neither of them pointed it out? I asked Banksy “why?” which is a very similar response to what Dyslexi and I did to your comment.
You are making up stuff.

And I am a she.

okay, seems my idea didn't work out exactly the way I wanted. I wanted to see how everyone would react to me saying someone was town and not saying what the reason was. Dyslexicon and Ravenpaw seemed to point it out almost immediately, but then Banksys did the same thing here

I like this for town motivation, even though I don't think it does much.
Rarely see scum attempt to perform reaction tests.

It feels like he's backtracking imo, he did something skeevy and had pressure put on him to explain it, he can't explain it so is now going with the story that he was just reaction testing.

[Ravenpaw]

Also Pie, what happened to Big being your top scumspect?

[Grimgroove]

catching up tomorrow

[Dyslexicon]

What's this objective stuff? I still don't get your reasoning.

maybe I chose the wrong word orz

What I meant was, instead of asking questions to figure out why he did something, he did something where the reason behind it seems pretty obvious already.

Also, upset no one has followed up on his wagon.

where? I was never upset, nor was there a need to be, cause my idea was completely wrong in the first place. nice misrep there

okay

vote: Dyslexicon

okay, seems my idea didn't work out exactly the way I wanted. I wanted to see how everyone would react to me saying someone was town and not saying what the reason was. Dyslexicon and Ravenpaw seemed to point it out almost immediately, but then Banksys did the same thing here

Ravenpaw is scum.

VOTE: Ravenpaw

(Yes, I am entirely serious).
Neither of them pointed it out even though it's practically the same thing with a vote attached. Ravenpaw is the one who got accused so seems he can be excused for that for now. Dyslexicon, what's your opinion on this?

I'm not really sure I get what you mean here. Your vote was a reaction test? If so, what does the bolded mean? Also, Raven did ask Banksys for reasons on her vote, and that's why I didn't ask. Why the vote though?

[Banksys Flareon]

First of all, I'm a

girl

. I'd like you all to get that straight.

Second of all, my vote was quite serious. I didn't not explain it because I wanted a reaction from Raven and from the town.

I'm still nursing my computer back to health, and my phone doesn't do well with fancy quotes. I will however post a case tonight, I promise you.

@Dyslexicon:

[pieguyn]

I'm not following your thought process at all with this, and my conclusion for why this is is because you have a scum thought process.

see below

Okay so you originally stated this:

I don't see anything wrong with L - 1 so soon as long as no one hammers (which shouldn't happen if people read the thread), so imo that seems like he's just trying to blend in and seem town

So you said this and then later on you say that Big is your number 1 scum read (who was at L-2), but you don't vote him, instead choosing to just vote someone who was lurking.

You are now saying that Big already had a lot of votes, so you put your vote on someone else for more discussion.
However, why say that there's nothing wrong with L-1 early on and that Dys' reaction was a bad one as he was just trying to seem town, when you have now done

the same action yourself

? You didn't vote Big and I feel it was because you were afraid to L-1 him even though you'd already claimed there is nothing wrong with it.

All the negative energy towards putting someone to L-1 in this thread, I believe, has made scum hesitant to do that and I believe that is why you didn't do an action that you previously claimed was fine in your books and that people who had a problem with it were suspicious.

okay first of all my read from the whole L - 1 situation was on Michael Wolf not Dys

Second, this isn't the same kind of situation. I already gave my reason for voting someone else besides BigTerp. If I voted BigTerp, we wouldn't get anywhere at all cause it'd end up being the same result as if I didn't (he defends himself and we all move onto someone else). This way, we now know more about what happened with Banksys. as I said before, being OK with L - 1 doesn't mean putting someone at L - 1 every single time

But you never explained it, you just said Cheery was town. How is that a good read? And of course there’s a need to ask about something that you said, we need to know whether your reads are coming from a good or bad place.

sorry for confusion, that was about BigTerp not Cheery

Why are you assuming that Banksy’s vote is a reaction test? Especially considering he says that he is being serious, so I don’t think it is.

it's not the intent that's the same, its' the action. oh look it ended up being a reaction test anyway

And what do you mean neither of them pointed it out? I asked Banksy “why?” which is a very similar response to what Dyslexi and I did to your comment.
You are making up stuff.

And I am a she.

sorry missed both of those = =

I'm not really sure I get what you mean here. Your vote was a reaction test? If so, what does the bolded mean? Also, Raven did ask Banksys for reasons on her vote, and that's why I didn't ask. Why the vote though?

the reaction test was saying "Cheery is town" not the vote on Banksys
I explained the vote already but that defense seems fair enough for now

unvote

Post #83, unless another "misrep".

er isn't that my own post?

Also Pie, what happened to Big being your top scumspect?

I kind of lost track of him cause we stopped talking about him, but he's probably 1st or 2nd for me, the second option reserving a spot for someone else due to recent events. Haven't thought much about who it could be cause I just woke up T_T

[Michael_Wolf]

Back from being away. Going to read through now, sleep on it, and get to posting tomorrow.

[Michael_Wolf]

I know I've been a bit defensive, but you guys are barking up the wrong tree. I got a bit frustrated with having to explain, in great detail, this post 31. Instead of me being able to do some scumhunting and working on discussions with other players, I've been forced to continue to have to explain what, IMO, was a pretty general post.

Nobody is stopping you from scumhunting. Who are your strongest scum reads so far?

[Michael_Wolf]

I'm very interested in hearing Banksys case on Raven. I did a very quick iso on Raven and to me she seems to be scum hunting.

[pieguyn]

I've done some ISO, I'm going to post mine on pieguyn's for the following reason

Cat Clancer, what are your other scumreads?

Also, upset no one has followed up on his wagon. -1.

^ you mentioned that was "poor wording" but never gave a better wording? What is a better wording for that then?

Still more on Bigterp, really set on this guy.

cause people asked me to elaborate. nice misrep again

you still haven't answered this. Incidentally, you suspected me 3 times for supposedly not answering a question

The fact that's the only thing you're going to point out and not nothing else makes me even more suspicious.

explain why it's suspicious when I only point one thing out when you only gave one scumspect, in essence doing the same sort of thing

Post 6: When questioned, didn't go into much detail, dodging the question. -1
Post 8: Still more on Bigterp, really set on this guy. -1. Also failed to once again answer a question, suspicious. -1
Post 10: Again, no reasoning why Cheery is town, "just is". Scum partners, maybe? Also, upset no one has followed up on his wagon. -1.

explain why you gave me -3 for the same thing. (Incidentally, I've since explained that)

also one more thing

Both gave general blanket statements about why you’re suspicious, yet made no move to vote you or try to scumhunt you to extrapolate more information.

why should I scumhunt someone who already has like 3 people scumhunting him instead of letting a possible scum go by unnoticed? The more varied discussion we have, the better I say.

I like this for town motivation, even though I don't think it does much.
Rarely see scum attempt to perform reaction tests.

just curious, what's your opinion about Ravenpaw's actions at this point?

vote: Cat Clancer

for now bc I don't like how he seems to be focusing on me only without regard to anyone else, he misrep'd me twice, and he still hasn't answered the above question. It also seems too convenient how he just voted me right when people were suspecting me, but as he was busy I'll just assume that's cause he was busy.

[Banksys Flareon]

I guess you can see this as me contradicting myself. But I put someone at L-2 not L-1, which I'm perfectly comfortable with this early. Basically I like to have people at L-2 or L-1 early on, more so at L-2. Really it's beneficial at any point in the game. It gives us a chance to see who squirms or who trys to move votes around. I say more so at L-2 because theres no chance to derphammer at L-2. And yes, if an SE came into the game and unknowingly put someone at L-1, I don't see why it couldn't happen again.

This feels like you're now trying to distance yourself from your previous stance.

What makes you so sure?

hax obv :3

What does this mean?

EBWOP: sorry, forgot this
IMO BigTerp just seems to be sitting and agreeing with everyone instead of coming up with stuff individually. maybe I missed something but afaik the last 2 or 3 posts he was just agreeing with people, seems suspicious IMO

You're misrepping Bigterp here, his last 3 posts aren't just agreeing with people.
Pie, who do you think is scum?

@Grim- What are your thoughts on Bigterp so far?

He's beginning to sound very nervous over matters that are trivial. His read on Cheery Dog in post 59 feels as if proclaimed by someone being choked to death, gasping for air.

What are the trivial matters that he sounds nervous over?
And you didn’t actually give a stance on Bigterp in the above response, so what do you read him as?

What are your thoughts on Dyslexicon, Ravenpaw?

I’m leaning town on him; he is asking good questions, and his reaction to not realising putting Cheery at L-1 seemed pretty legit. Why do you ask?

@Grim- What are your thoughts on Bigterp so far?

He's beginning to sound very nervous over matters that are trivial. His read on Cheery Dog in post 59 feels as if proclaimed by someone being choked to death, gasping for air.


What are your thoughts on Dyslexicon, Ravenpaw?

I wouldn't say nervous at all. There has been a quick runup on me for, IMO, very poor reasons. The ones behind it should be looked at more carefully. It seems to me that Michael_Wolf getting to L-2 has caused some movement, and I was the easy target.

You sound nervous here. Why do you see yourself as an easy target?
Also you are misrepping the situation badly here because as soon as the vote count was posted to show Michael at L-2 Grim suddenly unvoted him (which you have ignored in you retelling of the situation), I then voted you a few posts after this, as did Dyslexi. So yeah, Michael was not even at L-2 long enough for it to be argued as scum trying to create a desperate counter-wagon.
Big, what are the poor reasons you've been voted for?

I fucking hate posting from my phone.

WHY RAVENPAW IS SCUM

by Banksys Flareon

This post is scummy as fuck. This is not a person scumhunting, this is a person fabricating a plausible wagon and sticking to it with each new post. Big's meaning with the L-1/L-2 thing was obvious and obviously town. You feel like you caught him in a contradiction, which is a god send for scum. It means you get to sit back and post all kinds of meaningless content and you can sit back and ask benign questions about random people's reads and look like town for doing it. This is bullshit.

Oh, missed that:
@Ravenpaw:

And the reason I asked about Dyslexicon is 1. to pull you out of your unilateral questioning-status

and 2. because I think he made the most memorable action of the first two pages and should be worth everyone's consideration.
His vote showed a certain carelessness that I'd associate with a town-mindset rather than a scummy one, but his reaction to when he finds out he put someone at L-1 sounded a bit too off-hand.

YES.

[Banksys Flareon]

This feels like you're now trying to distance yourself from your previous stance.

Not at all. I made a general statement that I'm ok with an early L-2 or even L-1. My post was nit picked to hell and back, so I had to explain it in further detail.

Fair enough, but given it's forum mafia you gotta be prepared to have what you write be torn apart.

You sound nervous here. Why do you see yourself as an easy target?
Also you are misrepping the situation badly here because as soon as the vote count was posted to show Michael at L-2 Grim suddenly unvoted him (which you have ignored in you retelling of the situation), I then voted you a few posts after this, as did Dyslexi. So yeah, Michael was not even at L-2 long enough for it to be argued as scum trying to create a desperate counter-wagon.
Big, what are the poor reasons you've been voted for?

I see myself as an easy target because, again, for whatever reason my posts were getting questioned pretty heavily. A vote or 2 moved my way, and now I'm at L-2. Seems like mafia working a wagon in my direction.

Could be, but Cheery, myself and Dyslexi were all pushing you for answers, and that discussion has been good for creating more information and getting us away from RVS. If you are town I’d say that Grim’s and Pie’s reaction to you were the most scum like. Both gave general blanket statements about why you’re suspicious, yet made no move to vote you or try to scumhunt you to extrapolate more information. That is pretty scummy from my pov and it should be from yours too if you’re town.

Your right, I didn't realize Michael was no longer at L-2. Grims posts were a bit confusing though. In 48 I thought he was voting Cheery, but he didn't highlight it. I saw he unvoted, but didn't realize it took his vote off of Michael. The poor/weak reasoning for votes on me involve me saying I'm ok with an early L-2 or L-1. That all of a sudden became the focus for alot of people and reasons to vote me.

I found a contradiction in your posts, and I find contradictions scummy, that’s how I roll.

I know I've been a bit defensive, but you guys are barking up the wrong tree. I got a bit frustrated with having to explain, in great detail, this post 31. Instead of me being able to do some scumhunting and working on discussions with other players, I've been forced to continue to have to explain what, IMO, was a pretty general post.

Hmm I like this, it sounds genuine. I'm gonna move you to my town pile now.

At the end of this post, you suddenly move Big to "your town pile," but you're vote says on him for a long time to come. I also encourage everyone to read the earlier parts of this post to see if they gel with what I said about the previous one.

[Banksys Flareon]

One more...

I don't see anything wrong with L - 1 so soon as long as no one hammers (which shouldn't happen if people read the thread), so imo that seems like he's just trying to blend in and seem town

Pie said this earlier and has said that Bigterp is his number 1 suspect yet did not vote him, and instead voted someone else.
Anyone see the town motivation in this? Because I don't.

Unvote: Bigterp
Vote: Pieguy

@Cheery- what are your thoughts on Big's recent posts?

But wait! Now pieguyn has posted something that can be made into utterly meaningless accusations! Pie explained himself. You act like he didn't. Now you get to ride through a few more posts of abundant and useLess content. You are scum madam (and i know I called you he earlier and I feel really bad about that).

[Banksys Flareon]

Also I am truly sorry about the quote walls.

[Grimgroove]

The bolded thing was a tongue-in-cheeck reference to the question-stream-style Ravenpaw adopts.

Lol, okay darling

Didn't mean to be mean, just so you know. I don't really have problems with your playstyle as such, but in this case your questions, the sheer amount of them, is so overwhelming it occupies most of the people's time. Time isn't endless. All the time spent on answering to your walls with walls, is time not spent on hunting scum. The walls themselves provide another hurdle to do as such.

Now I am the last who should be complaining about walls, but I do try to keep some form of overview, be it through reads list, some general conclusion... Yet I don't see you do that. You ask 100 questions, and based on the 100 answers, you ask 200 more questions. Out of the answers you get you make a selection, you make a read, but it is very, very difficult to follow it all. If you're town, it would help us, and yourself, a lot to make some post where your main findings are summarized + main and secondary reasons for those findings.

Banksys Flareon put it much more eloquently (and shorter) than I could, and I agree with her statement wholeheartedly. I too, think you're scum. The accusations you've put forward so far seem meaningless. This is something i could not get from your interactions with others (due to the enormous amount of reading this involves), but your interactions with me. The way you ALWAYS add a question of your own when you answer a question of mine comes off as extremely defensive, and is very tiring for anyone who wants to interogate you. Despite you saying you love answering questions, this is not the impression you're giving me.

[Banksys Flareon]

@Grimgroove: it's wagon time. Why aren't you voting for Raven?

[Grimgroove]

I'm still catching up with other goings-on, there might be something more vote-worthy. I'll have voted within 24 hours from now.