/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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It has now been 48 hours. Scum trying to extend their planning period:mith wrote:Mafia may communicate during the Pre-Game, which will last until everyone has confirmed (and a minimum of 48 hours).
PookyTheMagicalBear
zu_FaulTalk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I am not a farside alt! I <3 her, but I am not her.Claus wrote:We're not using that. It is silly, and the game hasn't even begun yet. Farside is probably just looking very sternly at the two slowpokes who are preventing us from playing :-/Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Most of the time, yes. It depends on my role. I hate being scum. I went through a period last year when I kept drawing scum and it was awful. Luckily, that did not happen to me this game.Thesp wrote:elvis_knits, do you find happiness in receiving role PMs?
vote inhimTalk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I hate cats.Xylthixlm wrote:My cat made me do it.
unvote; vote xyl
Although I almost voted charter for not responding to rofl's awesome case against him. But I hate cats more.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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There are exactly four scum in this game? ORLY?Kmd4390 wrote:Vote Elvis_Knits
Not random. Buddies are Bridges, ekiM, and Xyl.
AND yeah, what BNB said, why not vote xyl when there's a wagon on him.
I think this is a potential slip, because I don't think the rules say the number of scum, so I don't knwo why KMD picked that number of people as the scum team. Arbitrary or informed?
Also, it does not make a lot of sense for Xyl and BNB to be buddies anyway since she started the wagon.
I'm thinking this is possibly KMD trying to tie xyl buddy to townies.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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This does not sound like it was an assumption:kmd wrote:It was my assumption.
I asked you if there were EXACTLY four scum in the game. You did not say, "uh, that's what I assumed." You said "4 scum plus a traitor." That is not an assumption. You told me it was fact.Kmd4390 wrote:
4 scum plus a traitor.elvis_knits wrote: There are exactly four scum in this game? ORLY?
My understanding after looking at the rules/roles was that the list of roles may all be in the game, but we don't know which and how many. That tells you nothing as to how many scum we have. And even if you were going by the sample role PM's, I think there are 5 mafiates listed.
^^ that would suggest 5 mafia if you were going to assume the sample PMs are literal. If you were assuming you should assume 5, but I think we shouldn't assume anything.Role Name: Mafia Godfather
Group: The Mafia Family is: XXXX (Mafia Godfather), XXXX (Mafia [?]), XXXX (Mafia [?]), [XXXX (Mafia [?])], [XXXX (Mafia [?])].
So you definitively stating four is evidence of extra info. Info only scum would have.
THIS IS A SLIP, PPL.
unvote, vote kmd
There is a strong possibility that Xyl is scum too because KMD tried to tie him to three other people, but it'd not as much a sure thing as kmd.
I actually don't see scum vote eachother that often in rvs, but whatever. It was the combination of you random voting xyl and then asking for bandwagon on him that made me think you're not buddies even if one of you were to flip scum. I wouldn't expect a scum to random vote and then push for their buddies lynch. Maybe that's just me. I just don't think it's that productive to lynch your buddy if you don't have to.BNB wrote:Scum very often vote eachother. Especially RVS. I think some people actually consider it a tell (if, for instance, Xyl turned up scum). Secondly, it makes no sense. How could I possibly know my vote would turn into a wagon? I could have easily just made one vote and switched it.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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1) Why was my vote on Xyl opportunistic? Do you think his vote on Yos was good?Claus wrote:About E_K:
The 4th vote on Xyl in 81 was a bit opportunistic, but the overreaction, specially the OMGUSy defense, against Kmd's attacks puts Elvis in my Scum list. The "SLIP! SLIP!" is bull and malicious.
2) Where did I overreact and why is that a scum tell?
3) My definition of OMGUS is counterattacking/countervoting a person for NO OTHER REASON than they voted you. Obviously I have a reason for voting KMD. I didn't even immediately vote him, I questioned him about his "scum list" to try to find out where he was coming from, and if there was a logical explanation. He informed me there was 4 scum and a traitor in the game, a fact which the mod has not told us. At that point, I voted him.
4) Explain the "malicious" part. I can see how you would call it "bull" if you don't believe in slips -- I know there are some people that do not. I have run into this before in games and I know it doesn't make a player scum just because they don't count slips. But I don't know where you get "malicious" from.
5) Can we look at kmd's initial post?
It's a lot of nothing until the bottom where he votes me and makes his scum list. Which I would be fine with except he says it's not random, doesn't give reasons for voting me or for the other three being partners, (plus the slip stuff which you may not see). But are we really in the business of letting players name the scum team without giving any reasons whatsoever? There's no indication he's joking there. He says it's "not random."Kmd4390 wrote:
No.Thesp wrote: Kmd4390, are you scum?
Why not?Herodotus wrote: On a related note, I would have wanted to place a wagon vote on someone, but had no interest in the options available.
I've been working most of the time that the game has been started. 11PM-6:30AM at one job, did more stuff for that job from 8:30AM-9:30AM and my other job from 10AM-3PM. I'm here now. Don't worry. I'm no flaker.ekiM wrote:I am deeply concerned by the continued absence of inHimshallibe, Kmd4390, Ojanen, populartajo, and Shabba. I'd wager there's at least one scum amongst those five players.
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Vote Elvis_Knits
Not random. Buddies are Bridges, ekiM, and Xyl.
Yes I have. One that I remember we were scum buddies in Mirth's mini Congratulations You Are Mafia. I think he's good at scum. I think his talent is talking himself out of situations, he can be persuasive. BUT, I don't think he's above making mistakes. He's just really good at talking himself out of trouble. In the game I referenced, he made a mistake on the first page. He put a third vote on zazie and said "not a bandwagon vote." Which was him getting on a bandwagon but saying that wasn't his reason. Which shows he's aware what he's doing is scummy, but he's doing it anyway... "like don't attack me for this -- it's not scum motivated, I swear!" Yeah, and he was scum.alex wrote:btw, have you ever played with KMD?
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Mike, BAB pushing Xyl lynch was post 85, not merely that she made a RVS vote on him:
BridgesAndBaloons wrote:
Don't try to laugh this off. Post 66 is genuinely scummy, and this is a legitimate wagon.Xylthixlm wrote:Ooo, my first time ever as the first bandwagon of the game (I think). I'm honored.
More XYL votesplease.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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What is your logic for voting me? Now that you realize I was right on the 4 scum front, being that there is absolutely no reason to assume that, why are you voting me?BridgesAndBaloons wrote:^Thanks.
Yeah I know, bad logic, right? That's why I decided to vote for E_k instead, because she's my number 1 logic. Although, I don't like* Xyl because of his vote on Yosarian. Don't like the reasoning of "last to confirm."Yosarian2 wrote:That's...actually a really good point. Post 102 is really, really odd.
I really don't understand your logic at all, B&B. How is it that you thought you should vote for your #2 suspect rather then your #1 suspect because it was early in the game?
What am I ignoring? That seems like an obvious misstatement. I've been responding to everything.BAB wrote:On the other hand there are reasons for the Elvis Wagon which she seems to be completely ignoring. Her stretching the case on Kmd is totally forced and scummy.
KMD, if you are saying your statement of "4 scum plus a traitor" was your assumption, why did you assume that?
And I want reasons for your scum list. Saying it's your gut is not good enough.
Replying to CLaus in next post since I don't want to make this one epic and annoying.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Well, you got me there. I actually had no reason for voting Xyl other than to push his lynch for my own dastardly purposes, and thought nobody would notice if I just said I hate cats. It was winning strategy obviously.Claus wrote:Replying Elvis Scum
It was a 4th vote on a bandwagon, with a joke reason,1) Why was my vote on Xyl opportunistic? Do you think his vote on Yos was good?when you had already random voted before- if you honestly just wanted to join a wagon for the heck of it, you would have done it when you voted inhim.
Also. you questioning me about Xyl's votes says that you are trying to change your story from a joke vote ("I don't like cats") into a serious vote ("bad vote on yos"). You're being malicious all around, Elvis.
Seriously though, I can see in hindsight that I should have been serious while giving my reason, and making a joke at that time was stupid. I made the cat joke because I didn't like xyl's vote on Yos, combined with his joke explanation of "the cat made me do it." So I responded with something equally as ridiculous, giving my reason for voting him as "I hate cats." Also I'm allergic to cats, so this really is funny to me.
But if you choose not to believe me, I guess I can't blame you since you have to take my word for it to a certain extent. But from my POV, my behavior doesn't really make sense any other way. I mean, what possible scum motivation is there for acting like such a dumbass?
You must think I'm really lame if you think that's how I "sneak" onto a wagon. I could have camoflauged myself much better if I was trying to hide. But w/e.Claus wrote:
That's the impression I get from reading 94. It reads too nervous for a second vote, like someone who was not expecting to be caught redhanded trying to sneak into a wagon.2) Where did I overreact and why is that a scum tell?
I had no idea that's why kmd was voting me. He has never said his reasons. And I was more concerned with him having extra info than just him voting me.
Why do you think my attack isn't genuine? Even if you don't believe in slips, why do you think it's impossible that any other player could disagree with you? I think you're being unreasonable here.Claus wrote:
Yes. And this is what you're doing towards KMD. You are attacking him with an easy reason ("SLIP SLIP") to try and discredit his attack. Your stated "reasons" are frivolous and malicious.3) My definition of OMGUS is counterattacking/countervoting a person for NO OTHER REASON than they voted you.
I think I ignored that because he was talking about the game having 16 players, which it does not. Now that you make me look at it, maybe that does muddy the waters a little. I just thought his answer of "4 scum plus a traitor" was more definitive than I would expect someone sound if they didn't actually know the number. I would have expected him to lead with his percentages and say it was a guess, not just give me the answer with no reasoning until later.Claus wrote:
You vote KMD because you say he never said "I assumed", but he actually does say that:4) Explain the "malicious" part.
Of course, when you quote KMD on 97, you cut away the "assume". That is malicious to me.Kmd4390, post 97 wrote:
4 scum plus a traitor.elvis_knits wrote: There are exactly four scum in this game? ORLY?
(... skip ...)
I actually thought we had 16 players andEK wrote:I think this is a potential slip,(...)assumed25%,
Furthermore, his story hasn't been the same. First he told me "4 scum plus a traitor" which I think is pretty definitive, then he said it was an assumption, and recently he said
Which seems to sidestep the numbers issue completely. If he wasn't choosing 4 players because he wanted to fill the 4 scum slots, but just because he saw 4 scummy people, why didn't he say that in the beginning?kmd wrote:Yeah, it wasn't random. It was gut. Those were the 4 players who stood out as scum.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Sorry for the triple post, but there's a few things I don't understand.
Claus, why do you have a problem with me making a cat joke when voting xyl, but no problem with Xyl joining the Yos wagon because the cat made him do it?
Why do you have a problem with my cat joke (you think I lack an actual reason), when kmd voted me with no specified reason and named a whole scum list with no reasons?Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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What is your evidence for thinking I'm a liar? You seem to be saying "We can't be sure she's telling the truth, so I'm going to assume she's a liar."Herodotus wrote:Elvis seems to want us to believe that she believes in it, but I'm not sure whether she does.
So what makes you think I'm faking it? What is the point of meta if you're going to discount it?Herodotus wrote:So by meta, Elvis is more aggressive when town. That doesn't mean she wouldn't fake it as scum.
Herodotus seems to be able to SEE that there is reason to believe I am town, but he's choosing to think that I am scum for reasons I can't see.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Well now I'm second-guessing myself and feeling like I'm playing this game really badly, but all I can tell you is that it did seem like a very strong case to me at the time, and I still think kmd's behavior is strange. He seemed SURE about the number to me, not like it was a guess. One of the things I always look for is someone who sounds like they know more than they should, and that's what kmd sounded like. I even asked him if he knew there were EXACTLY four scum, and he said "4 scum and a traitor." I asked him if he knew it was exact, and he didn't say, he wasn't sure it was exact. My thinking was that he knew the number because he is scum, and he thought that was common knowledge so he didn't try to hide it.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I said that in confirmations. It was a joke. I didn't act on it. Why was I supposed to be scum hunting in confirmations?Kmd4390 wrote: You- Started out with the "last to confirm" tell. I usually see that as an excuse to look like you are scumhunting.
My first post of the game was a vote on inhim. What is your problem with that? The posts before my vote on inhim were during confirmations.kmd wrote: After you throw those names out, you joke around a little without voting for a few posts. Not even a vote on those last players to confirm that you pointed out. Then you have a random vote with no reason, just to replace it with a joke reason next post.
As I have explained my vote on Xyl was not a joke vote... although I did make a joke. So you can see it that way if you want, I guess. But that's not what it was.
ALSO, PRETTY SURE BABA IS NOT SHEA! DGB is hydraing with BAB in another game... and they are like fire and TNT... don't think they would hydra together.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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My question was absolutely serious.Kmd4390 wrote:Rofl, look what we are talking about here.
EK makes a statement that obviously isn't a serious question. What would scum really say? "Yeah, my Role PM says so"? I was being a sarcastic prick. EK continued to question me about the number of scum after that, I don't remember my thinking. I was probably running on 24-36 hours straight being awake. That's about my average.Kmd4390 wrote:
4 scum plus a traitor.elvis_knits wrote: There are exactly four scum in this game? ORLY?
I was giving you a chance to explain yourself, see if you really thought there were 4 scum or not. Because I did think there was a possibility that you were just choosing 4 people you thought were scummy, so I needed to have you confirm that you knew a specific number.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Really? "4 scum plus a traitor" was supposed to be sarcastic? I didn't get that at all. Has that been what others have been assuming all along?
I honestly don't see the humor there. Like, what is the joke?Talk nerdy to me.
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I still don't understand the interaction there... like what you thought I was signaling and what you thought you were playing back to me. It doesn't make sense to me why you thought I was joking... or what my joke would be.
I really don't consider myself a fail humor person, but I don't get this.Talk nerdy to me.
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Damn Xyl you have jedi mind powers.Xylthixlm wrote:You were accusing him of having secret knowledge because he said something that was too specific, so he made itmorespecific.
Well, it looked sarcastic to me.
Why didn't anyone say this sooner? Like why didn't KMD say this sooner when I proved serious and voted him for this?? WTF.Talk nerdy to me.
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Well I am still trying to decide what I think about the kmd stuff. I am trying to understand how I could miss a joke that everyone seems to think is obvious. Just out of curiousity, did you think kmd's response about "4 scum plus a traitor" was a joke too? Was I the only one who didn't get this? And why did nobody bring this up for like 5-6 pages? Why didn't anyone give their reason for voting me as something like "elvis taking kmd's joke too seriously" or "elvis misrepping an obvious joke by kmd." Nobody said that...Claus wrote: In the meanwhile, Elvis, would you make a list of the 4 most scum-looking players for you?
But besides that whole business, I have noticed somethings that I think are scummy whether or not kmd is scum.
Herodotusseems weasely to me. I made one post on him already, 169. My basic question in that post is WHY he thinks I am not sincere, and why he chooses to think me a liar when he explicitly states evidence to the contrary (like meta).
In 171 he says the slip is a null-tell to him, and basically that's why he doesn't believe I could be confident. Then in 214 he agress that he thought kmd was making a joke, and that was the real reason he didn't believe my attack was serious. Why didn't he tell me that in 171? That was a perfect opportunity to explain.
Here are the posts I'm talking about:
elvis_knits 169 wrote:
What is your evidence for thinking I'm a liar? You seem to be saying "We can't be sure she's telling the truth, so I'm going to assume she's a liar."Herodotus wrote:Elvis seems to want us to believe that she believes in it, but I'm not sure whether she does.
So what makes you think I'm faking it? What is the point of meta if you're going to discount it?Herodotus wrote:So by meta, Elvis is more aggressive when town. That doesn't mean she wouldn't fake it as scum.
Herodotus seems to be able to SEE that there is reason to believe I am town, but he's choosing to think that I am scum for reasons I can't see.Herodotus 171 wrote:@Elvis: I don't understand why you would be so confident about your case on KMD. I considered the "slip" to be a null-tell, and expected others would see that as well. You took it as a basis for a case in a situation where I would expect you not to seriously consider it one. That looks a bit like you're just trying to appear aggressive rather than seeking something that is genuinely scummy.
So I'm not assuming that you're lying; the issue is more that I don't understand why you would really believe what you're saying. And that is more suspicious than the other issues that have been raised.herodotus 214 wrote:No offense intended, Elvis, but I thought it was clear that KMD was joking around... which is why I doubted the sincerity of your case on him.
I agreeBABis suspicious. Primarily because it seems like he let kmd goad him into voting me. He decides to HOS me, then kmd asks him to vote me and BAB does it. BAB says he decided independently, but that's WIFOM. It sure LOOKS like kmd influenced BAB.
Also, let's not forget that BAB was serious when saying he thought there were exactly four scum in the game. Whether or not kmd was serious, BAB was serious. BAB says he miscounted from the sample scum pm... but still.
I have another small point. Not sure what it means, but I thought it was strange when BAB argued with me when I said that BAB and XYL were probably not scum buddies since he random voted and then pushed the xyl wagon. It is more BAB's plea to wagon xyl that seemed un-scum-buddyish to me. But why does he even have a problem with this? Why does he want to argue that they could indeed be scum buddies?
iamausername
has made three game posts, two of them were first post/random votes. The third is this:
What I mind in this post is that he's not scum hunting at all. He's encouraging alex to setup speculate, and stating he is staying off xyl wagon. Neither of those are at all helpful, and he's failing to really comment on anyone. He doesn't sayiamausername wrote:
I think it's a very silly thing to do in almost all situations.Thesp wrote:iamausername, what do you think of self-voting?
It would be nice.alexhans wrote:We NEED to avoid fluff.
What was the purpose of posting this sentence:
?alexhans wrote:I have my own theories about what roles may be in this game but I've learned that setup speculation this early is pretty useless.
ITP I am not voting for Xyl.whyhe's not voting xyl. He doesn't seem to be looking at any better place to put his vote other than his RVS vote. He's just staying completely out of all arguments, and I don't see him looking curiously at anyone. I see no evidence that he's looking for scum.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Does the bolded part mean that you thought I was trying to look like I believed what I was saying but that I didn't actually care about convincing anyone?Herodotus wrote: @Elvis: I'd rather not speak for KMD. But more importantly, "telling you" didn't seem like a high priority, as it was a distinct topic. Reality was that you were running with your argument against KMD, and it looked suspicious. Not even because it was reaching, but because your tone, especiallyyour all-caps sentence, looked like your real goal was to convince people that you believed your argument as opposed to convincing people that it was correct.I stated that at the time. If it is now clear, I'm ready to drop the issue.
How is something like that quantifiable?
And why would anyone, scum or town do that? Not care about persuading people your argument is right? What's the payoff form me to do that? It seems like a huge waste of my time.
Yos, why were you purposely not commenting on me/kmd?Talk nerdy to me.
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BAB, I still don't think there is anything faulty in my logic about you and xyl. I know scum buss each other, but I don't think they buss eachother very seriously if they don't have to. It's not 100%, but I think it's a good general rule. I think people overestimate bussing. A scum team is much more effective if they stick together rather than tear each other apart trying to look town -- especially since we are hip to bussing at this point.
Unless you're trying to tell me that you random voted your scum buddy xyl and then got caught on him when a wagon started, so you had to fake that you wanted the wagon to grow? Is that what you're telling me? I mean, why do you want to argue this?
My logic isn't bad though. You have to follow the lowest common denominator approach, IMO. If two people are trying very hard to lynch one another, I assume they're not scum buddies. Unless one was forced into it because 1)someone else originated the attack and it's so serious that one of them is going down; or 2)one was under attack for another reason and it's distancing. Otherwise, I see no reason for scum buddies to really try hard to lynch the other.BAB wrote:I attack against bad logic because it creates an atmosphere where it's harder for scum to hide their insincere comments.
Furthermore, I think it creates a bad atmosphere to do what you did, to assume every attack could be bussing. Because then you can't clear any townies for finding scum. You get into a backwards mindset where you think that the town's greatest asset is bussing and is therefore scum. That hurts the town my creating a paranoid environment.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I want to iron out my problems with kmd though. Did you catch the sarcasm from him? And why did nobody mention it to me sooner. Apparently zu_faul noticed it, and I don't think English is his first language...roflcopter wrote:elvis, you should vote for bridges
Although I like how bridges is determined to see my actions as scum either way, whether I vote for him or not:
BAB is like, "elvis not voting me would be townish except she's fueling the wagon by finding me suspicious. I mean, suspecting me doesn't make her scum, but her continuing to stay off my wagon is just as scummy as voting me."BAB wrote:I was about to unvote E_k because she wasn't joining the wagon on me (something I'd expect scum to do and they could do it easily), but then in her most recent post she mentioned I was scummy which is a way of subtly joining the wagon without having to make the obvious vote.
I'm not saying that her suspecting me is necessarily scummy, because town would do that too, but if she continued to stay off my wagon I would have considered that towny and unvoted.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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It was not merely that you voted him on page "x." This is the post that made me think you and xyl are prob not scum buddies:
BridgesAndBaloons wrote:
Don't try to laugh this off. Post 66 is genuinely scummy, and this is a legitimate wagon.Xylthixlm wrote:Ooo, my first time ever as the first bandwagon of the game (I think). I'm honored.
More XYL votesplease.
Not sure how to make this clearer, let's suppose Player A attacks Player B, and they try to get each other lynched. If we lynch Player B and he's scum, we should assum Player A is probably town (unless Player A did not initiate the attack on Player B, or Player A was already under suspicion). This is going to work in the town's favor almost all the time, since it encourages good scum hunting and semi-confirms good players. Townies know who they can trust, and scum can get in real trouble if they get too many players that they need to NK since they also need to be looking for power roles and killing people who are suspicious of them. All in all, this is all good for the town.Bridges wrote:
What are you even saying here? I don't understand this it all.E_k wrote: Furthermore, I think it creates a bad atmosphere to do what you did, to assume every attack could be bussing. Because then you can't clear any townies for finding scum. You get into a backwards mindset where you think that the town's greatest asset is bussing and is therefore scum. That hurts the town my creating a paranoid environment.
If however, you lynch Player B and he flips scum, and then you accuse Player A of bussing, you are screwing yourself hardcore. You are not only lynching a town player and a good one who has already lynched you scum, but you are creating a paranoid environment where other players can't trust each other, and where nobody can find scum without being accused of bussing.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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@BAB 245
But I can't tell you that I think you're town if I don't believe it, and whether I think you're town or not should not affect your reason for voting me.
If you were willing to unvote me if I called you town, does that mean your other reasons have gone away and that the only reason you're voting me now is for being suspicious of you?Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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If you're not sold on a person's townieness, having the spotlight on them can only help you get a better read of them.
zu - Do you have any other suspicions on anyone besides me? Not to say you should move your vote or anything, but I think it would be good for you, and everyone generally, to comment on as many people/issues as possible. As of now, we only really know how you feel about me.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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There's a problem here...Shabba wrote:Charter,
I think BaB is scummy, mainly because of posts 100, 102, 155 and 245 (angry vibes)...First, I thought that BaB was bussing Xyl...until Xyl voted for him, so there goes that theory. Post 251 confused me...big time.
I just don't agree with Elvis_Knits's logic, throughout. The arguments seem weak or diversionary, like posts 81, 94 (which I read as an overreaction), 104 (tone and tedium), and 172 (again, I don't see where the argument is going or what kind of weight it holds)
After rereading, I don't get a scummy vibe from Yosarian2...i especially liked post 240...
Post 245: good post
iamusername: what does ITP stand for?
My top suspects right now are BridgesandBalloons and Elvis_Knits, in that order.
Bridges: flustered and waffley
Elvis: tone and overreacting.
I'm not sure which one is worse.
unvote
First you said post 245 by bridges gave you "angry vibes" and is one of the reasons you think bridges is scum.
Then you say "245: Good Post"
This doesn't make sense. Are you using 245 as a reason to think bridges is scum, but then also agreeing with it and using it as a reason to think I'm scum?
Also if Bridges is your top suspect, why aren't you voting him?Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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This is the way I see the game. I tried to put reasons where I felt I hadn't already explained myself ad nauseum (like with kmd/bridges). Some of the prob/town or town people I don't have that much of a reason, just the absence of anything scummy or I have no problem with them, so I didn't really put anything by their names. If there are specific questions on anyone, I will be happy to elaborate.
SCUMMY:
kmd
Bridges
iamausername - see my post 227
shabba - disagrees with herself over 245, failure to vote top suspect, bridges
Neutral/doubts:
zufaul - seems to stop progress for no reason (slowing attacks on bridges, shabba, discouraging herodotus's lurker hunt, reprimanding xyl for too much vote hopping... these all impede the progress of a game. Pressuring people gives us better reads, so what zu is doing is bad).
herdotus - some weasely moments
ekiM - some attention on him led to recent lurking
Xyl - not liking all his reasons for votes
Complete neutral:
alexhans - V/LA
SerialClergyman - I have no memory of what this person has done
Neutral/lean town:
Claus
inHim
VPBaltar
Thesp
tajo
Town:
Charter
Ojanen
roflcopter
YosTalk nerdy to me.
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Claus, I'd like a scum list too but I'm not going to beg for it and I'm not going to wait 12 days for it. I also think there's no reason why BAB shouldn't be kept close to a lynch in meantime. A vanilla claim from a scummy person should cement their lynch, honestly. I mean, if you're not lynching a vanilla, who would you go through with the lynch on? Keep the claimed vanilla, kill the claimed doc? Because we think scum would fake a power role? That is backwards thinking.
This should be our thinking:
1)BAB is scummy
2)BAB claimed vanilla
3)BAB is either vanilla or scum.
4)If we lynch BAB, we either lynch scum or vanilla, therefore little damage to town, or huge advantage. As a bonus, no power roles have to claim today.
ALSO, we can assume that players wanting to stop the BAB lynch on the strength of a vanilla claim are scum. They're either helping their scum buddy (if BAB is scum) or they would rather keep the day going to find a power role to lynch or claim (if BAB is town). Players who want to stop the BAB lynch for another reason is not a sure thing -- but if you unvote BAB on the strength of a vanilla claim... you are scum. Ahem, KMD.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Can you explain your approach more and how it helps you tell allignments? Because I don't understand how it's scum hunting to stop wagons on people who you've said yourself are not entirely townie. How do you get info this way?zu_Faul wrote:
This is my usual scum-hunting tactic. It works pretty well.elvis_knits wrote:zufaul - seems to stop progress for no reason (slowing attacks on bridges, shabba, discouraging herodotus's lurker hunt, reprimanding xyl for too much vote hopping... these all impede the progress of a game. Pressuring people gives us better reads, so what zu is doing is bad).
(/in before people accusing me of hypocrisy. It is much different from halting the game like BAB wants to, as what he is doing does not provide us with any more information, while slowing the impetus (on people who are not scummy) is doing so.)Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I was not aware that your one vote on Thesp meant there was a wagonHerodotus wrote:
_elvis_knits_,
_VP_Baltar__,
The pleasure of your attendance on the wagon ofis formally requested.__Thesp__
@VPB: The wagon on ekim can resume if/when he comes back from his V/LA and doesn't answer our questions. In fact, I'll join it if he doesn't.
@Elvis: Do you believe BaB was exploiting the suspicion resulting from the number of scum discussion? If so, which players' suspicions was he exploiting? If not, how do you feel about Thesp's reason for wanting BaB lynched?
I am not sure that what Thesp posted means what you're saying it means.
I'm not exactly sure, because I find Thesp's comment a little confusing, but I think that Thesp means that "BaB was trying to exploit MY (elvis's) suspicion on the number of people (the slip, the 4 scum + 1 traitor thing)." Which means Thesp thinks BaB saw my suspicion and thought he could use it to make me look scummy. At least that is how I took it. It is not dependent on other people having expressed suspicion on me. We should probably get Thesp to clarify.Herodotus wrote:
This is awful. If he just wanted to exploit suspicion, he probably would have voted KMD (unless KMD is his buddy.) No one had stated any suspicions of Elvis over the number of scum issue before BaB's vote, and only one person was voting for her. Your idea is that he left the wagon that was at 6 in order to exploit suspicions that had not yet been stated on someone who was at 1?Thesp wrote:3 - Sure. I think elvis_knits's suspicion of Kmd3490 is genuine. The manner in which BridgesAndBaloons approached elvis_knits suggests to me that he's trying to exploit the suspicion on the number of people.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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1) So he doesn't have to give results? So his buddies can buss him and look town? So he could make this WIFOM argument?Kmd4390 wrote:
1) Why would Bridge claim vanilla as scum? It makes no sense.elvis_knits wrote:but if you unvote BAB on the strength of a vanilla claim... you are scum. Ahem, KMD.
2) Didn't your vanilla claim save your ass in the Family Guy mini? Why haven't you brought that up knowing that I was in that game, saw Llama clear a claimed vanilla, and saw you eventually flip vanilla?
2) In family guy, that was a different situation, there were character claims, which helps significantly more than just having a vanilla claim. Even if scum have safe claims you can see if the role and the character match and stuff. Even so, you should go back look at my claim, I did not expect it to save me, and I even said that dying wouldn't be too bad for the town. Did I force you guys to lynch me in that game because we should always lynch vanilla -- of course not, since I knew my allignment! I do not know BaB's.
Also, tell me what kind of claim you would go through on the lynch of. BEcause if you won't lynch a vanilla claim, who are you going to lynch?Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Also, I am curious, as a general question to people:
As scum, have you ever claimed vanilla?
I know I have claimed vanilla as scum. I'm not sure if I have ever done it under pressure of a bandwagon, but I know I have done it at massclaim time.
I think kmd's theory that scum wouldn't claim vanilla is wrong, but perhaps I am wrong. I would like input here.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I don't think we should forget zu faul either.roflcopter wrote:i feel like we're just twiddling our thumbs here. bridges screamed at us to wait and then what... went on a lurkerhunt?
we have the scumteam, folks: bridges, herod, kmd, claus, maybe username too
judging my the surety with which bridges and kmd insisted on a 4 man team, one of herod and username would be a traitor.
lets bag and tag 'emTalk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Your cases, short version:
I'm not really hot on any of them, although you MAY be right. They all feel like the kind of things that are possible, and greater discussion and pressure could help to nail them down, but I am not particularly worried about any of those people.Claus wrote:Ekim jumped on the two major bandwagons (5th and 6th vote), without a case and without commenting on anything else in the game.
Yos sat back, threatened to join the Xyl wagon when it was big (without discussing it much), then pushed and joined the biggest bandwagon (B&B) while commenting almost nothing else about the game - also Yos scum meta.
Thesp does not seem interested in anything about the game other than the BnB wagon, and yet has not improved his case on BnB from his original suspicion 200 posts ago.
Ekim - I was mildly suspicious of him because he seemed to disappear once people voted him. I didn't think their reasons were that strong, but the fact that he sort of disappeared made me raise my eyebrows a bit. Now it looks like he was VLA, so I can't blame him for that. It is all basically null to me, but if you or other people see something you don't like, I think it is absolutely worth it to question him, especially since I don't have a read one way or the other.
Yos - I think you're basically saying he's not being very pro-active or starting attacks/discussion. In a way, that may be true, but he was questioning BaB, and his vote seemed to stem from BaB's scummy answers, which seems natural. Overall... I say, MAYBE, although this attack is very open to interpretation. I think your meta read of Yos is pretty good -- I've seen him as scum before. But I don't think his behavior has been shockingly alike to his scum meta. Maybe mildly. I think it will be good to encourage Yos to comment on more people, nail down his feelings to help get a better read. The more we get him talking the better.
Thesp - again, someone that didn't strike me as scummy, although you may be right that he hasn't commented on enough people. Although I think this criticism could apply to any number of people, so I don't know why you are hitting on Thesp in particular. And why do you think Thesp should have "improved his case on BaB"? I don't understand that really. IMO, Thesp has sometimes been slow to give his reasons, which I don't LOVE, but I think you said earlier doesn't bother you when people do that (regarding KMD you said that I think).
Basically, these are all people that are sort of hanging out in my neutral category. I don't think it hurts to try to get more info from them, but no I am not blown away by these cases.
Claus - what do you think of iamausername, herodotus, and zu faul?Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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He is on the vote-elvis-to-defend-kmd train. Also he keeps raining on the parade of every other wagon, while simultaneously not explaining why none of my explanations or further actions cause him to reevaluate me at all.roflcopter wrote:
zu doesn't really seem connected to bridges. nor does he fit in my "no more than five scum" numerical model.elvis_knits wrote:
I don't think we should forget zu faul either.roflcopter wrote:i feel like we're just twiddling our thumbs here. bridges screamed at us to wait and then what... went on a lurkerhunt?
we have the scumteam, folks: bridges, herod, kmd, claus, maybe username too
judging my the surety with which bridges and kmd insisted on a 4 man team, one of herod and username would be a traitor.
lets bag and tag 'em
He should be considered.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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But Claus asked me what I thought of those people first, distracting me from my suspicions... so why don't you think Claus is scum for "trying to get EK away from voting his scum buddies and focus on three other people"???BridgesAndBaloons wrote:
I read this as E_k trying to get Claus away from voting for her scumbuddies and to focus on three other people, this makes me continue to suspect E_k and adds suspicion to Thesp.elvis_knits wrote:Your cases, short version:
[Elvis then talks about how all these people are neutral]Claus wrote:Ekim jumped on the two major bandwagons (5th and 6th vote), without a case and without commenting on anything else in the game.
Yos sat back, threatened to join the Xyl wagon when it was big (without discussing it much), then pushed and joined the biggest bandwagon (B&B) while commenting almost nothing else about the game - also Yos scum meta.
Thesp does not seem interested in anything about the game other than the BnB wagon, and yet has not improved his case on BnB from his original suspicion 200 posts ago.
Claus - what do you think of iamausername, herodotus, and zu faul?
Claus did exactly the same thing that I did... asking me about what I thought of other people. We did the same thing, and you have decided that I was the only person doing something scummy. And why it would be scummy to ask players to give opinions on others is beyond me... that is not scummy! We need info! We need everyone to comment!
Also, this is evidence of the kind of backwards thinking I described earlier. You see me not too suspicious of Thesp and say we must be scum buddies. You see someone drive a wagon on another player and say they must be bussing. This kind of thinking will lose the game for town. You are setting up situations where:
1)Players who agree or trust each other must be scum buddies.
2)A player who attacks another and lynches scum must be bussing.
That makes it impossible to agree with other townies without being accused of being scum buddies, and impossible to lynch scum without being accused of bussing. This is the opposite of what we should be doing! (I'm not saying bussing doesn't exist, but it should not be assumed in every situation, nor should players who are not suspicious of each other be assumed scum buddies when there is no other reason to think so).Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I think zu parking his vote on me is consistent with his other play because none of it is helpful to the town. If zu thinks I am scum he should absolutely still vote for me, but I would expect him to argue with things I have said, and show why I am scummy. He hasn't done that. He just keeps his vote on me and says nothing about me, while slowing progress in other areas. Not helpful.Thesp wrote:
How do you think this fits/doesn't fit/other with his already stated approach of slowing bandwagons down?elvis_knits, re:zu_faul wrote:He is on the vote-elvis-to-defend-kmd train. Also he keeps raining on the parade of every other wagon, while simultaneously not explaining why none of my explanations or further actions cause him to reevaluate me at all.
He should be considered.
Comments like this are similarly not helpful:
^^ And NO mention of who these people are and the scummy things they're doing. How is that helpful to the town? You're raining on the BaB wagon, but you're not sold he's town. You're doing it because "there are other people who are scummier" but you don't say who they are or what they're doing and you don't vote them yourself? That is pure shenanigans.zu_Faul wrote:
Because there are players who are actually doing scummy things.charter wrote:
Why not?ZuFaul wrote:I am not sold on BAB's townieness, but I don't think she deserves the spotlight she is currently getting.
Furthermore, I don't see "slowing bandwagons down" as a pro-town strategy. Perhaps I am missing something, but this is how I think:
Unless you have a STRONG pro-town read on a player, you should not slow down a wagon on them. Reasons include: 1)Wagonee might be scum, you just haven't seen it yet; 2)Wagonee might be town and letting the wagon go on them might make this clearer and also might make wagoners give themselves away as scum.
I want to be able to judge the wagoner by their response, and also, for the town to feel able to vote freely. That way scum feel able to vote freely, and it will be easier to catch them through reasoning or timing that feels "off."
I do not understand why zu would stop a wagon on someone who he doesn't feel confident in their allignment. A wagon can only help make allignment clearer.
OR, if you absolutely have to stop a bandwagon on another player, you should atleast provide other avenues of discussion, which zu hasn't been doing. Although I guess in his last post he expressed some mild suspicion on iamausername and ekiM. Although it was more a plea for more participation than any kind of attack.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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I agree. He gave a scum list. That's what people wanted. It was nonsensical as expected.roflcopter wrote:i'm confused. why isn't bridges dead yet?
Now we need:
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Zu -
THis is the whole of the quoted post:
Most of this seemed like just you stopping progress as usual. But I guess you're saying you think Xyl's vote hopping and ekiM's lurking(actually VLA) are scummier than BaB? These both seem lots weaker than the BaB stuff, IMO. But I find it hard to believe you think it's stronger than BaB since you admit the initial BaB accusations were not bad.zu_Faul wrote:
Because there are players who are actually doing scummy things.charter wrote:
Why not?ZuFaul wrote:I am not sold on BAB's townieness, but I don't think she deserves the spotlight she is currently getting.
Shabba seems more inexperienced as opposed to scummy. Got to keep in mind for the next days, but I'd give her a chance to make her behaviour better.
Xyl's vote and accusations hop around too much for my taste.
Herodotus' lurker hunt is not yet a good idea.
BAB plays pro-townish; the initial accusations were not bad, but I have not yet seen further indication of his scumminess. Players who make a scummy thing and then disapp; ared completely should rather be persecuted. ekiM for example.[/hr]
But you're not furthering the case based on good reasons, you're just criticising the bad reasons and suggesting we look elsewhere. You don't seem to be paying any attention to the "good reasons" or wanting to explore those. When you ignore the good reasons, attack the bad ones, and suggest we look elsewhere, you're just tearing the entire wagon down. And if you admit there is some merit, I don't know why you would want to tear it down.zu wrote:
I am attacking the bad reasons to vote for B&B, not the good ones. Why would it be pro-town to have bad accusations linger around? Better decisions are made if there are only good reasons. Even if those may not be the decisions you like.elvis_knits wrote:How is that helpful to the town? You're raining on the BaB wagon, but you're not sold he's town.
Where is your theory backed up? I have never heard of your theory, and as I have said, it seems pro-scum. My theory that bandwagoning is good, is a much more pervasive theory and one that I think most people on the site would agree with. So, yes, I think it has a foothold in reality.zu wrote:
My theory is backed up. I tested it. It is not fooproof or always works, but it is, in my opinion, good. Is yours backed up? Or are you just saying something which in theory sounds nice, but has no foothold in reality?elvis_knits wrote:Furthermore, I don't see "slowing bandwagons down" as a pro-town strategy. Perhaps I am missing something, but this is how I think:
Unless you have a STRONG pro-town read on a player, you should not slow down a wagon on them. Reasons include: 1)Wagonee might be scum, you just haven't seen it yet; 2)Wagonee might be town and letting the wagon go on them might make this clearer and also might make wagoners give themselves away as scum.
I want to be able to judge the wagoner by their response, and also, for the town to feel able to vote freely. That way scum feel able to vote freely, and it will be easier to catch them through reasoning or timing that feels "off."
I do not understand why zu would stop a wagon on someone who he doesn't feel confident in their allignment. A wagon can only help make allignment clearer.
Others are free to comment if they think I am right or wrong on this.
I know that there are different strategies in this game, and it's not scummy to have a different strategy. So that is why I have asked you to explain yours and how it catches scum. So far, I still don't understand. I also find it hard to believe you have never heard of my theory that bandwagoning is good.
1) I made reference to your most recent post when I mention username and Ekim. So, yes I am up to date. I mention that you seem to be trying a little harder (now that I have started complaining about your lack of scum hunting).zu wrote:
Oh, you are obviously not up-to-date. Please mark your posts as such, or be up-to-date. Seriously, making an accusation agaisnt me, when I had LA, but then ignoring what I said after I returned is seriously unhelpful. You have obviously not read my latest post. You accuse me of things I explained in that. How can this ever be pro-town? Instead, you make posts where you want people to hammer another player, while you have not even read the most recent posts. My vote will stay on you.elvis_knits wrote:OR, if you absolutely have to stop a bandwagon on another player, you should atleast provide other avenues of discussion, which zu hasn't been doing. Although I guess in his last post he expressed some mild suspicion on iamausername and ekiM. Although it was more a plea for more participation than any kind of attack.
2) If I did miss something in your latest post, why would that be reason that I am scum? This is an excuse to keep your vote on me.
3) Why is my call to hammer bridges bad? Why don't you want bridges dead? You think bridges is town? If so, you need to explain.Talk nerdy to me.
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This is a good point... ekiM's answers don't match up here.
Ojanen wrote:I wanna reread some when I have time later today (several of my tentative scumreads just flipped town), but I note one thing that feels insincere to me.
I asked ekiM yesterday whether he thought the thing about BaB saying he didn't like the reasoning behind Elvis' thought process about BaB+Xyl being mafia together was scummy.
(I referred to roflcopter 298 in the question.)
The response I got was
Why he was among the people I asked it from?ekiM wrote:It was said that Xyl + B&B scum together is unlikely. Scum-B&B has much more motivation to undermine this than town-B&B does, so I do think it's a scumtell, yes.
His own opinion at the time was:
Agreeing with BaB that Elvis' idea was silly, but later not batting an eyelash in finding that agreed thought a scumtell feels scummy to me.ekiM wrote:Elvis saying scum wouldn't start RVS bandwagons on one another is a bit silly. Describing it as "pushing for their buddies lynch" is sillier.
I know the difference is in who has what motivation to say it, but the thought process still just feels alien to honest scumhunting.
I have townish gutreads on both Elvis and Kmd, btw.
People I am most suspicious of at this time:
iamausername
ekiM
SerialTalk nerdy to me.
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Where does that come from? Seeing as people WERE following it yesterday, and I haven't mentioned it today. My decision to move past the slip has nothing to do with other people's behavior.kmd wrote:has backed off now that people aren't following it.
It's more that most of the people who thought I was wrong turned out town that has made me try to move past the "slip" business. I'm trying to look at you objectively beyond the "slip." However, you did just misrep me.Talk nerdy to me.
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Dammit Yos, you are drawing me back in! I was trying to forget this!
I also want to add that kmd later said the "4 scum plus a traitor" thing was a joke. If it was a joke, then why was he going on about 25% scum and saying it was an assumption? He didn't need to justify "4 scum plus a traitor" if it was a joke. I feel like his story changed, and that is evidence of a lie.
kmd, why did you justify your comment with percentages and other explanations if it was merely a joke?Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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OMG I forgot that one -- I was in that game too. Charter and wolf were both scum, but that only means wolf DID MAKE A SLIP. So you remember that one, kmd, so you know it is possible for scum to make slips. Doesn't that make you rethink your position about slips being BS?Kmd4390 wrote: See Family Guy where Charter insisted that Wolf had slipped. I called it BS all game. Charter and Wolf were both scum. Kinda funny looking back. But you can pull my reaction from that game if you'd like.Talk nerdy to me.
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Zu, were you in that game? Have you read it? Why are you dismissing my example out of hand? Wolf made a statement that he knew a person was town while he voted to lynch that same person. Fact is he was scum. How/why would a town person have done that?Talk nerdy to me.
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ekiM wrote:
How so?Elvis wrote:This is a good point... ekiM's answers don't match up here.ekiM wrote:Elvis saying scum wouldn't start RVS bandwagons on one another is a bit silly. Describing it as "pushing for their buddies lynch" is sillier.
First quote you say my idea is silly (my idea that Xyl and BaB can't be scum together). This is similar to how BaB felt about my idea.ekiM wrote:It was said that Xyl + B&B scum together is unlikely. Scum-B&B has much more motivation to undermine this than town-B&B does, so I do think it's a scumtell, yes.
Second quote you say that BaB's dislike of my statement is a scumtell. Which seems strange since you had already agreed with BaB and called my idea silly.
I would expect that if you thought my idea was silly, you wouldn't see BaB's disagreement with me as a scum tell. You would see BaB's disagreement with me as prefectly natural, since it is similar to how you think.
See, first you said my idea was silly, and then when BaB disagreed with my idea you used it as a reason to vote him. It seems like a contradiction.
ekiM -- Who do you think is scum? I have no idea who you are suspicious of.Talk nerdy to me.
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lolPookyTheMagicalBear wrote:solid logic there
Some people sited that as a reason early, but that is not why I am suspicious of ekiM -- see my post 543 for details. Also, I don't know who he is suspicious of. Maybe he has had to spend all his time defending and hasn't had a chance to scum hunt, but even if that's the reason for not scum hunting, it's not a really great one. I need to see him scum hunting to get an idea of his arguments and if I think they are scummy or valid.iamausername wrote:Everyone who can't see how ekiM's "one of these five is scum" post is obviously not serious, does it help if I point out that in that same post, he says he is "deeply concerned" about these five players lurking less than 24 hours into the game?
Also, iamausername's defense of ekiM should be noted.
No, I've already told you that your failure to scum hunt at the beginning of the game was scummy. Refer to post 227 for more details. You left a random vote on alexhans for 14 pages. Some of that might have had some VLA in there... I don't know since you never really explained that totally. But even if you had some VLA that prevented posting, what I said about you in 227 is not dependent on your being VLA.iamausername wrote:elvis, do you have any reasons for voting me that you haven't stated in the thread?
The fact that scum slips exist make it possible that kmd made one, and the fact that he has seen one (in a game he brought up as an example) should cement the fact that he KNOWS they exist. Yet he is arguing they don't exist at all. And if he can successfully argue that they don't exist at all, obviously nobody can argue that he made one.iamausername wrote: Also, what productive purpose does arguing about whether or not somebody made a scum slip in an entirely different game really serve? Proving that slips actually exist in no way proves that KMD made a slip in this game.Talk nerdy to me.
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Updated scum list... I've given my reasons for all the scummy people. Town people are basically gut. I have no clearing reasons/evidence as of yet. Neutral people are ones I might have some questions/doubts about, but not too important at the moment. Also, some of hte neutral people I have no problem with, but they just haven't given me a town gut feeling.
Scum:
iamausername
ekiM
Kmd4390
SerialClergyman
Neutral:
Pooky (alexhans)
charter
VP Baltar
Xylthixlm
zu_Faul
Town:
tajo
rofl
Thesp
Yos
OjanenTalk nerdy to me.
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iam - your point about alex doesn't make sense to me. I read the first few pages of the game again and I know alex made that comment about avoiding fluff, but he wasn't only posting fluff (maybe some of it was, I will give you that). But Alex got into an argument with claus, saying claus was voting yos to get rid of a good player. That happened before you made your infamous iso post 3. So alex wasn't only posting fluff.
Also, did you like what serialclergyman posted? Did you unvote him because you agree with him or just the fact that he contributed something?
I get the feeling that you are trying not to comment on things if you don't have to. You unvote serialclergyman without commenting on his content. Reminds me how you said "ITP I am not voting for Xyl" which doesn't really tell us very much. You can spin that out all kinds of different ways later.
Personally I am underwhelmed with serial's suspicions that basically amount to a gut scum on Yos. I want moar comments on moar people.Talk nerdy to me.
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Yeah, I mean it's WIFOM... I can't know if he's telling the truth or not. So I'm trying not to let it influence me too much either way.Xylthixlm wrote:I don't like iamausername's "I was busy so it's not scummy" excuse, btw.
Also, I think iamausername is a very good player, so I would expect him to try to mend his ways as I point things out. And I think he can basically argue anything. So I feel like I have to read him from what he is actually accomplishing, or what he seems like he's tryign to accomplish. At the beginning of the game, I don't think he was scum hunting. And even now, I get the feeling he's trying not to comment on things if he doesn't have to. Like he'll just look town if he votes lurkers and lets them off the hook for no reason to vote the next lurker. That is not scum hunting. HE didn't even comment on serial when he unvoted.
RE: Yos, I think he's town, but I admit that part of that is probably because he agrees with me about kmd. I have a problem with thinking people who agree with me are obv town The comments that Yos is not playing to his town meta MAY have some truth to them, but overall, I think that's a really thin reason to vote someone. Also, when people like kmd and serial, who I find scummy, attack Yos, I feel more like Yos is town. It can't hurt to discuss him though. You think he's scummy?Talk nerdy to me.
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Yes you like what he posted? What did you like about it? Could you possibly give me more than a one word answer about that? This is like pulling teeth.iamausername wrote:
Yes.elvis_knits wrote:Also, did you like what serialclergyman posted? Did you unvote him because you agree with him or just the fact that he contributed something?
No, your point was valid, but I'm not sure that is the whole reason people are suspicious of him. As I pointed out, I am not suspicious of him for the point you defended against. So, basically, I find it strange for you to defend him on the much lesser charge, while ignoring any of the other points against him. It sort of suggests that you think he's not scum because of that one argument, while from my POV, the issue is much bigger than just the point you defended against. Reminds me of this: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... om_Fallacyiamausername wrote:Do you think my defence of ekiM was invalid?
What do you think of my argument against ekiM? Post 543 is most of it I think.Talk nerdy to me.
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Yeah but that's an insanely easy thing to fake. There could easily be some scum in there feeding the Yos paranoia. I don't like the idea of the biggest reason against a person being that 1)Their meta is off and 2)Gut. It does not seem like enough for me, and it's very easy for scum to feed into that and blow it out of proportion.Xylthixlm wrote:
He's giving me a bad gut feel. I can't really speak to his meta, but something is off. It could just be me but it seems like several other people are feeling the same thing...elvis_knits wrote:RE: Yos, I think he's town, but I admit that part of that is probably because he agrees with me about kmd. I have a problem with thinking people who agree with me are obv town The comments that Yos is not playing to his town meta MAY have some truth to them, but overall, I think that's a really thin reason to vote someone. Also, when people like kmd and serial, who I find scummy, attack Yos, I feel more like Yos is town. It can't hurt to discuss him though. You think he's scummy?
I am all in favor of exploring these gut reads though if people can possibly parse out WHY they are getting a bad feeling from Yos. Sometimes I will have a gut feeling on a person, but if I try hard, I can find out why I got that impression.Talk nerdy to me.
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NO. This is horrible and lazy. You can't even tell me anyone you are suspicious of? Seriously??ekiM wrote:
Patience.Elvis wrote:ekiM -- Who do you think is scum? I have no idea who you are suspicious of.
You are just lucky that serialclergyman is so scummy...
First of all, I don't see why it should matter whether or not he mentioned your lurking previously. It's not like you can say you didn't lurk. You did, and you admit it. So it is still a point against you.Serial wrote:1) Since you find OMGUS such a worrying sign, it's worth mentioning I've skyrocketed to 2nd on your scumlist directly after posting a case against you, when previous to that I don't think you mentioned me once. Of the three reasons you give,
a) You never mention my lurking all through yesterday or early today or when other people were mentioning it,
b) Never mention my behaviour yesterday (by which I assume you mean my lurking) all through yesterday or early today or when other people were mentioning it and
c) My attack on you - well, hello OMGUS.
And as for the OMGUS part of it, I seem to remember you giving us a definition of OMGUS previously, in which you say that something is NOT OMGUS if the person has sufficient other reasons:
And since it is clear Yos is voting you because he feels you are misrepping him and lying about him, I would say that by your own definition, he is not OMGUSing you.serial wrote:So you put it out there that his attack on you is OMGUS, which is a relatively poor suggestion. He has actually given you plenty of reasons - none of which were based on your vote for him.
unvote; vote serialclergymanTalk nerdy to me.
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Eeek, dramatic.SerialClergyman wrote:^^ Eeek, badlogic.
But the fact is that you did lurk yesterday and so his point is valid. Whether he would have mentioned if you hadn't attacked him -- I really can't know. It's WIFOM.SerialClergyman wrote: 1) It matters whether he mentions my lurking previously because we are trying to determine whether his suspicion of me is born of my case against him. As it was, Yos2 went from not mentioning SC ---- not mentioning SC --- SC makes case agaisnt Yos2 --- Yos2 declares SC 2nd most scummy in game. This suggests to me that my case certainly had something to do with it.
All I know is that you did lurk, and you can't deny it, so you're trying to strike back by saying Yos is OMGUS you. I'm not willing to discount your lurking, which is a fact, because Yos may or may not be OMGUSing you.
SerialClergyman wrote: 2)