/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[Xylthixlm]

in addition i agree with what yos said, he is town.

Hath thee a read on Yos beyond agreement?

[Xylthixlm]

Jokes like "my cat made me do it"? Or?

Jokes that have a possibility of being interpreted seriously. I won't take someone's word that they "only meant it as a joke".

[Ojanen]

Ojanen: The reason I was "rehashing the early arguments" wasn't because I think that's the strongest point against KMD, or anything like that. The only reason I got into that was because KMD's only defense for his vote on Elvis was her "reaction to his vote on her", so I went back, re-read that interaction again, and then pointed out that there was nothing wrong with Elvis's reactions there at all, and that her actions, and her vote, made complete sense at the time.
Why is it that you attacking me for "rehashing early arguments", but you're apparently ok with KMD using those same early arguments as a reason to vote Elvis now, even though you claim to agree with me in thinking Elvis is town? Was I just supposed to accept that as a justification for his vote, when I don't think there was anything wrong with Elvis's actions there?

What kmd did is direct continuation from what he did yesterday. He was right about BaB. He continued harping about that fight with Elvis. I disagree with his suspicion and on what it's based on. A disagreement doesn't overrule my town read.

What you did is that you sat back from the early kmd/elvis/BaB fight. Then you explained that it was on purpose because you didn't have good reads of them and the wagons would allow you to get better ones. Basically:

(shurg) I was contributing, I thought. I just wasn't talking about the Elvis/KMD/B&B three-way fight much, because I didn't really agree with any of those arguments, but at the same time didn't want to defend any of the three of them.

Then you expressed suspicion for kmd for BaB-related stuff. And THEN you came back and found kmd's reaction scummy, and in detail today. There was just a flavor of trying to inflame that argument back today. I certainly don't wanna lynch elvis either, but I don't think she's heavily suspected at the moment and kmd is.

I'm tired of being a wimpy useless sissy reasonable town player. I have a townread on Kmd, I'll be a clown if I turn out to be wrong but I'm not gonna not try to make a difference anymore when I have a mislynch feeling.
Also, I don't get you're trying to implicate by saying I "claim" to agree with you in finding elvis town, my strongest expressed early opinion was that elvis is townish.

[iamausername]

Also, as I said above, your point was not made as clear as you seem to think it was.

The thing is, I could totally accept the idea that my intent to vote BaB wasn't entirely clear. But you said yourself that it

was

perfectly clear, and are instead arguing that somehow it wasn't clear that my request for a claim was in any way connected to my intent to vote. This idea, I struggle with, because those two things are pretty self-evidently connected, as far as I'm concerned.

How about this, if you were indeed waiting to see BaB's claim before deciding to vote him, why even bother voting for rofl? Why not wait until BaB's claim and then decide where to vote?

Because I suspected rofl more than alex (who I had been voting up until then). I mean, in retrospect, the rofl vote probably was pretty pointless, but certainly no more so than keeping my vote on alex would have been.

If it was the fact that I voted rofl that you had a problem with, why didn't you just say so instead of posting all that nonsense about "telegraphing my punches" and whatever?

---

Everyone who can't see how ekiM's "one of these five is scum" post is obviously not serious, does it help if I point out that in that same post, he says he is "deeply concerned" about these five players lurking

less than 24 hours into the game

?

elvis, do you have any reasons for voting me that you haven't stated in the thread? Also, what productive purpose does arguing about whether or not somebody made a scum slip in an entirely different game really serve? Proving that slips actually exist in no way proves that KMD made a slip in this game.

Ojanen is making very good points against Yos, and on a vaguely related note, is obvtown. Don't agree with her ekiM case so much though; I don't think it's contradictory for ekiM to disagree with the reasons for finding Xyl and BaB to be unlikely scum together, but still find it scummy for BaB to attack the idea that he is not scum with Xyl.

ekiM -- Who do you think is scum? I have no idea who you are suspicious of.

Agreeing with this, though. I'd like to hear an answer from zu_faul, as well, because the same applies.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, the biggest thing right now is KMD's vote for elvis today. There's no way that makes sense at this point if KMD is town; it seems entierly based on a "Elvis attacked me yesterday so I'm going to vote her" attitude that's just inherently scummy.

I fail to see the impossibility of KMD being town motivated.

(shrug) I never said it was "impossible". But it's less likely.

Bandwagoning someone to a claim, and then trying to drop the wagon and bandwagon someone else once they claim vanilla, is a scum tell, especally on day 1. Those kind of tactics, repeated bandwagon-to-a-claim stuff, are just the easiest way for a scum to flush out town power roles.

Sort-of agree, sort-of disagree. Unvoting because the claim was vanilla is bad, definitely, but there may be other reasons. Do you think that Kmd dropped BaB just because he was vanilla, or do you think there were other reasons?

That was the only reason KMD gave at the time, and that was the reason he defended for the rest of day 1 (with fairly absurd and easily disprovable statements he kept repeating, like "scum never claim vanilla" and such.)

If KMD is scum, of course, there may be other reasons, such as "didn't want to be part of a lynch wagon he knew was going to lynch a town bad." If he was town with other reasons, though, I'd expect him to have said them

The thing is, there is absolutly no reason a pro-town person should ever leave a wagon in response to a vanillia claim, especally on day 1. So, yeah, I think it's a scum tell; it's a move scum have reason to do, and vanilla town don't.

Your generalizations are overgeneralized. Your use of "vanilla town" here is odd; faint smell of rolefishing.

Huh. Pretty sure I just meant to say "town" there.

Anyway, I don't think my "generalizations are overgeneralized" there.

[Yosarian2]

What kmd did is direct continuation from what he did yesterday.

You keep saying that, and so does he, but I'm not getting how that's supposed to be a valid defense for him, or how that makes him more town.

Then you expressed suspicion for kmd for BaB-related stuff. And THEN you came back and found kmd's reaction scummy, and in detail today.

(shrug) Ok, true enough. When I was suspicious of KMD and went back and carefully re-read his posts in isolation, they seemed worse to me then when I read the thread through the first time.

There was just a flavor of trying to inflame that argument back today.

You keep saying that, but I'm not trying to "inflame an argument" or whatever, I've trying to both question KMD, get information about him, and trying attack him, as he is currently my main suspect.

I have a townread on Kmd, I'll be a clown if I turn out to be wrong but I'm not gonna not try to make a difference anymore when I have a mislynch feeling.

Well, sure, if you have a strong town read on someone you should say so.

Can you explain why you have a strong townread on KMD?

[elvis_knits]

solid logic there

lol

---

Everyone who can't see how ekiM's "one of these five is scum" post is obviously not serious, does it help if I point out that in that same post, he says he is "deeply concerned" about these five players lurking less than 24 hours into the game?

Some people sited that as a reason early, but that is not why I am suspicious of ekiM -- see my post 543 for details. Also, I don't know who he is suspicious of. Maybe he has had to spend all his time defending and hasn't had a chance to scum hunt, but even if that's the reason for not scum hunting, it's not a really great one. I need to see him scum hunting to get an idea of his arguments and if I think they are scummy or valid.

Also, iamausername's defense of ekiM should be noted.

elvis, do you have any reasons for voting me that you haven't stated in the thread?

No, I've already told you that your failure to scum hunt at the beginning of the game was scummy. Refer to post 227 for more details. You left a random vote on alexhans for 14 pages. Some of that might have had some VLA in there... I don't know since you never really explained that totally. But even if you had some VLA that prevented posting, what I said about you in 227 is not dependent on your being VLA.

Also, what productive purpose does arguing about whether or not somebody made a scum slip in an entirely different game really serve? Proving that slips actually exist in no way proves that KMD made a slip in this game.

The fact that scum slips exist make it possible that kmd made one, and the fact that he has seen one (in a game he brought up as an example) should cement the fact that he KNOWS they exist. Yet he is arguing they don't exist at all. And if he can successfully argue that they don't exist at all, obviously nobody can argue that he made one.

[elvis_knits]

Updated scum list... I've given my reasons for all the scummy people. Town people are basically gut. I have no clearing reasons/evidence as of yet. Neutral people are ones I might have some questions/doubts about, but not too important at the moment. Also, some of hte neutral people I have no problem with, but they just haven't given me a town gut feeling.

Scum:
iamausername
ekiM
Kmd4390
SerialClergyman

Neutral:
Pooky (alexhans)
charter
VP Baltar
Xylthixlm
zu_Faul

Town:
tajo
rofl
Thesp
Yos
Ojanen

[SerialClergyman]

I agree Serial needs to get his ass here.

We, being far less couth than some other English-derivative speakers, would insert an 'r' into that word. But all of that is just a well-worded and pithy way of saying SerialClergyman's arse is officially here.

I apologise for the lack of content from me, hopefully this will mark a big turnaround. Plus I've never been one for the first day(s) anyway.

Ok - game time.

Scummiest

I think I'm going to vote Yossarian. It's actually more gut than anything else, and it stems from your post at 447. I don't get it at all. It looks like you're a) overly worried about the vote on yourself, b) claiming OMGUS when it wan't really justified (in fact it seems you ironically claimed OMGUS as a way of defending against the charge) and c) BAB caught you out in a pretty big fib in his post at 453. I know you responded to it, but your response looked like overreactive scum.

In fact, lets have a look at it more closely.

instead of voting for me in what is clearly either a complete failure to read my posts or a pure OMGUS vote?

My vote for you is because you're scum. I explained why I believe you're scum. You have completly failed to refute that. Plus you claimed vanillia, which automatically makes you a good lynch anyway.

Also, I thought you said you were voting for me because I said that if you were scum xyl was town?

So you put it out there that his attack on you is OMGUS, which is a relatively poor suggestion. He has actually given you plenty of reasons - none of which were based on your vote for him.

So he replies at 453, quoting where he had given further reasons for his vote:

I'm voting you because your meta is off, your posts have a sort of unaffected tone that I've encountered when reading your scum games as opposed to the active scumhunter fearsome Yos I've seen.

Also, I think your attack of me is basically opportunistic and if there wasn't a wagon on me you wouldn't be voting me.

and then says

If you just quoted my post, which stated my reasons for voting you, and then say that I'm voting you "because I think you're not his scumbuddy," I have no choice but to believe you are purposely lying and not simply missing my posts.

Then, you replied thusly:

So, yes, you were originally voting me because I said that Xyl is town if you're scum.

Afterwords, once I had demonstrated that your wrong and that there was nothing scummy about that, you completely changed your reason; you changed it into basically a bad imitation of Claus' case against me. Basically, it looks like you really want to vote me because I'm voting you, and you'll come up with whatever reason you can to do so, and change your reason when the first one is disproven. What's worse, you seem to refuse to even admit that's what you're doing.

The fact that you're trying to claim "I'm lying" about your reason, when IT WAS THE REASON YOU GAVE WHEN YOU VOTED ME JUST YESTERDAY, has completely convinced me you're cornered scum. You've now gotten to the point where you're actually lying about your own posts in a desperate attempt to make your attackers look bad.

So this doesn't look like someone who is genuinely trying to work out who's scum. Whether BAB used those reasons when he first voted you or not, there's still a genuine question there that you've completely ignored. You can make the point that he's added to his original reasons, but you still have to answer them. Your last post is overly aggressive and overly sure. You don't acknowledge that your summary of his reasons for voting you didn't include the reaosns he added later even though you were definitely aware of them.

And the language isn't right either. This might be more of a gut thing, but you're too derisive. A cornered scum with a desperate attempt to make his attackers look bad? Really? That's a lot of language to use, and it masks the fact that your post doesn't really address the issue, just stubbornly sticks to his inital reasons and calls him scummy for adding new ones - whether they were worthwhile or not.

In addition, I also have a gut townread on kmd and also don't like your characterisation of yesterday's posts. His argument wasn't that scum never claim vanilla, it was primarily a gut read that scum in BAB's position wouldn't claim vanilla. It was a gutsy point that he knew he'd take flak for but made it anyway. I'm not sure how that plays to a scummy agenda, especially given BAB was in fact a townie.

In short - I think you were arguing about the theory of whether or not 'someone' who claims vanilla d1 should be lynched, but KMD was saying he thought BAB was town and the vanilla claim in that particular situation was part of the reason why. There's a subtle but significant difference between the points.

How do you feel kmd's play was scummy yesterday given the known status of BAB + the others that died?

Runner up prize:

zu faul - you finally get into the game by voting me, mentioning it's a pressure vote and saying nothing else about me. I feel more pressure on me to shave my ugly facial hair than I feel from that limpy vote. At least the others who had voted me had bothered to have a look and see the levels of posting discrepency. (note it's not just mafia 96, I've also been pretty active in Welcome to Foggylondontown, but I've also been very lurky in Webcomic Wars. It's a mix of how late the game has gone on and limited time. Thankfully I'm at night and in a quiet patch in the two most active games so here I am.)

I don't think that you particularly think I'm scum, I think you just needed somewhere to park. Tell me strongly and proudly who you think is most likely to be scum and why, please.

Some other questions:

Xyl - if you had to confirm a couple of players as town, who would you choose?

iam - How do you rate your play so far in this game?

rofl - My vote was on the BAB wagon and I was definitely for it. I'm not going to claim that I was impartial to it but voted him nonetheless. I was there, I wanted it to happen. Now - given almost all your theories were completely wrong, do you think you deserve some scrutiny, or were you happy with how you read yesterday?

Pooky - was the charter vote serious?

Vote Yossarian

[iamausername]

Some people sited that as a reason early, but that is not why I am suspicious of ekiM

That's probably why I addressed that sentence to "Everyone who can't see how ekiM's "one of these five is scum" post is obviously not serious" and not you.

Also, I don't know who he is suspicious of.

You might notice that I quoted the part where you mentioned that, and agreed with it.

Also, iamausername's defense of ekiM should be noted.

Do you think the defence is invalid?

No, I've already told you that your failure to scum hunt at the beginning of the game was scummy. Refer to post 227 for more details. You left a random vote on alexhans for 14 pages. Some of that might have had some VLA in there... I don't know since you never really explained that totally. But even if you had some VLA that prevented posting, what I said about you in 227 is not dependent on your being VLA.

OK, I was just wondering if there was anything I'd done since I actually started posting that you found scummy. Since there's not, let me break down why this is a terrible vote.

My third post in the game was on a Wednesday. I intended to follow up with something more substantial on Friday, but the site went down during the only two hours I was able to get online that day, and I couldn't get on at all on Saturday, so I wasn't actually able to post again until Sunday.

Also, I did not keep a random vote on alexhans for 14 pages. As I've already said, I found the fact that he declared that we needed to avoid fluff, while also posting something that was clearly complete fluff, scummy enough to deserve my vote over anyone else at that time. That's not random. It's not particularly good, but since other reasons for votes made at that stage of the game include "I love bandwagons" and "I hate cats", I don't think that's a problem. This is also why I didn't join the Xyl wagon; I felt I had a better vote on alex.

So, would you have found my third post scummy in any way if it wasn't for the fact that I wasn't able to post again for several days? Since you apparently haven't found anything scummy about my posts since then, I have to assume that the answer is no. Which means the only reason you are voting me is because I had limited access at the start of the game, which is obviously not a scumtell in any way.

iam - How do you rate your play so far in this game?

Far from my best, certainly. I'm working on it.

Unvote, Vote: zu_faul

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl - if you had to confirm a couple of players as town, who would you choose?

Me and roflcopter. I haven't really gotten that "OMG sooooo town" feel from anyone yet.

[SerialClergyman]

Good honest answer. I asked because when I've seen you in other games your posts have occasionally been written on pure distilled awesome and this game not so much. Didn't know if it was scumminess or just not having a good day at the office and it seems to be the second. Looking forward to it improving.

Out of curiosity, why the zu_faul vote?

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry, simpulposted the above.

Thanks Xyl, although it's a copout you included yourself

[elvis_knits]

iam - your point about alex doesn't make sense to me. I read the first few pages of the game again and I know alex made that comment about avoiding fluff, but he wasn't only posting fluff (maybe some of it was, I will give you that). But Alex got into an argument with claus, saying claus was voting yos to get rid of a good player. That happened before you made your infamous iso post 3. So alex wasn't only posting fluff.

Also, did you like what serialclergyman posted? Did you unvote him because you agree with him or just the fact that he contributed something?

I get the feeling that you are trying not to comment on things if you don't have to. You unvote serialclergyman without commenting on his content. Reminds me how you said "ITP I am not voting for Xyl" which doesn't really tell us very much. You can spin that out all kinds of different ways later.

Personally I am underwhelmed with serial's suspicions that basically amount to a gut scum on Yos. I want moar comments on moar people.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't like iamausername's "I was busy so it's not scummy" excuse, btw.

[Xylthixlm]

elvis, what's your feel on Yos?

[elvis_knits]

I don't like iamausername's "I was busy so it's not scummy" excuse, btw.

Yeah, I mean it's WIFOM... I can't know if he's telling the truth or not. So I'm trying not to let it influence me too much either way.

Also, I think iamausername is a very good player, so I would expect him to try to mend his ways as I point things out. And I think he can basically argue anything. So I feel like I have to read him from what he is actually accomplishing, or what he seems like he's tryign to accomplish. At the beginning of the game, I don't think he was scum hunting. And even now, I get the feeling he's trying not to comment on things if he doesn't have to. Like he'll just look town if he votes lurkers and lets them off the hook for no reason to vote the next lurker. That is not scum hunting. HE didn't even comment on serial when he unvoted.

RE: Yos, I think he's town, but I admit that part of that is probably because he agrees with me about kmd. I have a problem with thinking people who agree with me are obv town The comments that Yos is not playing to his town meta MAY have some truth to them, but overall, I think that's a really thin reason to vote someone. Also, when people like kmd and serial, who I find scummy, attack Yos, I feel more like Yos is town. It can't hurt to discuss him though. You think he's scummy?

[iamausername]

Out of curiosity, why the zu_faul vote?

As I said in Post #553, I don't have any idea who he suspects, which I find more worrisome in his case than ekiM's, since he was an active poster throughout Day 1.

(I know what you're thinking, and the answer is; VP Baltar, Yos. Maybe zu_faul & ekiM depending on what actual opinions they are able to provide. Maybe rofl, depending on meta analysis. Definitely not Ojanen, Thesp, KMD.)

Also, did you like what serialclergyman posted? Did you unvote him because you agree with him or just the fact that he contributed something?

Yes.

Do you think my defence of ekiM was invalid?

I don't like iamausername's "I was busy so it's not scummy" excuse, btw.

It's "I was physically unable to read or post", not "I was busy", fyi.

Like he'll just look town if he votes lurkers and lets them off the hook for no reason to vote the next lurker.

Trying to look town is for schmucks.

I can't know if he's telling the truth or not.

Well, I posted in the V/LA thread about my internet being down on August 2nd (well before Role PMs were sent out for this game, btw), and checking any of my games (wiki me) will show that my posting was down across the board in the two weeks following that.

Not definitive proof, but it's the best I can do.

[elvis_knits]

Also, did you like what serialclergyman posted? Did you unvote him because you agree with him or just the fact that he contributed something?

Yes.

Yes you like what he posted? What did you like about it? Could you possibly give me more than a one word answer about that? This is like pulling teeth.

Do you think my defence of ekiM was invalid?

No, your point was valid, but I'm not sure that is the whole reason people are suspicious of him. As I pointed out, I am not suspicious of him for the point you defended against. So, basically, I find it strange for you to defend him on the much lesser charge, while ignoring any of the other points against him. It sort of suggests that you think he's not scum because of that one argument, while from my POV, the issue is much bigger than just the point you defended against. Reminds me of this: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... om_Fallacy

What do you think of my argument against ekiM? Post 543 is most of it I think.

[Xylthixlm]

RE: Yos, I think he's town, but I admit that part of that is probably because he agrees with me about kmd. I have a problem with thinking people who agree with me are obv town The comments that Yos is not playing to his town meta MAY have some truth to them, but overall, I think that's a really thin reason to vote someone. Also, when people like kmd and serial, who I find scummy, attack Yos, I feel more like Yos is town. It can't hurt to discuss him though. You think he's scummy?

He's giving me a bad gut feel. I can't really speak to his meta, but something is off. It could just be me but it seems like several other people are feeling the same thing...

[Xylthixlm]

It's "I was physically unable to read or post", not "I was busy", fyi.

Even if you're physically unable to post, your relative scumminess can still change.

[elvis_knits]

RE: Yos, I think he's town, but I admit that part of that is probably because he agrees with me about kmd. I have a problem with thinking people who agree with me are obv town The comments that Yos is not playing to his town meta MAY have some truth to them, but overall, I think that's a really thin reason to vote someone. Also, when people like kmd and serial, who I find scummy, attack Yos, I feel more like Yos is town. It can't hurt to discuss him though. You think he's scummy?

He's giving me a bad gut feel. I can't really speak to his meta, but something is off. It could just be me but it seems like several other people are feeling the same thing...

Yeah but that's an insanely easy thing to fake. There could easily be some scum in there feeding the Yos paranoia. I don't like the idea of the biggest reason against a person being that 1)Their meta is off and 2)Gut. It does not seem like enough for me, and it's very easy for scum to feed into that and blow it out of proportion.

I am all in favor of exploring these gut reads though if people can possibly parse out WHY they are getting a bad feeling from Yos. Sometimes I will have a gut feeling on a person, but if I try hard, I can find out why I got that impression.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't like the idea of the biggest reason against a person being that 1)Their meta is off and 2)Gut.

Me, I'd be perfectly happy to lynch someone for those reasons alone.

[Xylthixlm]

I should say that I totally agree with SerialClergyman's post 558 on Yos2.

Oh, and

unvote
vote Yosarian2

[VP Baltar]

I've answered questions directed at me, so comments, analysis, and vote --> later.

*checks watch*

Hath thee a read on Yos beyond agreement?

This is a good question.

The thing is, I could totally accept the idea that my intent to vote BaB wasn't entirely clear.

My point is that you were leading up to it in that post and then did not. You're saying that, more specifically, your intent to vote him

later

after his claim was clear. I'm saying no it was not. Your intent to vote him in that post seemed clear enough, then you didn't. There is a difference to me in those two points, even if they both speak to intent.

I mean, in retrospect, the rofl vote probably was pretty pointless, but certainly no more so than keeping my vote on alex would have been.

Not really.

If it was the fact that I voted rofl that you had a problem with, why didn't you just say so instead of posting all that nonsense about "telegraphing my punches" and whatever?

His vote on rofl after stating the scumminess of BnB was weird, and now the quick switchback at very mild questioning is strange enough for me to think he is potential scum.

Also, what do you think of ekiM's scumhunting so far this game? Do you have a read on him?

SC is looking slightly better to me now that he is actually participating, though I'd like to hear a lot more. In the meantime,

Unvote, Vote: iamausername

. Your attempts to derail my attacks with very bad and largely illogical arguments stinks of scum.

ekiM and zu_faul are also acceptable lynches. I might back a Yos lynch based on his seeming switch in stance on the Kmd/EK thing, but I can't really speak to all the meta business since I've never played with him.