/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[Xylthixlm]

Well this is promising.

unvote, vote: VP Baltar

(L-1)

[charter]

Sorry for being away for so long, I kept putting off a reread

Vote Xyl

I think him and Thesp are scum together.

Xyl is probably scum.
Answering Claus's question directed at Thesp.
Loads of pointless posts and posts about the setup early on.
Waffles on the 4 scum or 5, EK or kmd debates (post 105)
376 is distancing himself from the mislynch.

Thesp
168 is bizarre, especially saying he appreciates Claus's close reading, after Claus says he's getting scummy vibes from Thesp.
474, doesn't even care about BAB's suspicions.

Posts 405 and 406 of Claus are probably the best I've seen upon rereading. Even better is Xyl's response in 413. It definately strengthens the connection between him and Thesp.

End of day one. Begin day two.

507, Where did your "I think Thesp is a good citizen" come from ZuFaul (other than left field)?
ZuFaul also hindered just about everything he could day one, which EK touched on.

524 is a good post by Ojanen

529, Xyl is totally scum.

534, Thesp has too many people he's willing to vote for, but he doesn't vote any. It looks to me like he doesn't want to pressure them or find out their alignment, just wait until a wagon forms, then try and lynch the easiest candidate.

549, Why did Xyl even make this post? He says absolutely nothing. I don't think he was being addressed either.

631, ANOTHER crappy bandwagon vote from Xyl. He just bandwagons when he can. He doesn't even try to figure out people's alignment.

673, looks like Xyl is setting himself up to vote for Ekim if it becomes convenient for him.

739, A completely useless vote from Xyl.

My scumspicions:
Xyl
Thesp
ZuFaul


I think Ekim is town. I don't understand why Ekim is being voted at all. It is clearly scumdriven. I don't like the Social wagon either, I think Yosarian's vote on it boils down to OMGUS because even if SC exaggerated his reasons for finding Yos suspicious, that's not enough to warrant a vote on him from Yos. I can comment on the other votes, but Yos's was the one I saw after I decided SC is town.

Page 31 has changed my entire perception so far. The points against VP make sense, but he has a lot of the people I find suspicious on his wagon. Now that I get to page 32, I see that I am right with my Xyl vote.


TL;DR of my scatterbrained post.
- Xyl is scum.
- Thesp is a good candidate for his buddy.

[charter]

I see that I waffle on the VP issue. I don't believe he's scum, largely due to his wagon ballooning on the last page, and a lot of people I'm finding suspicious are voting him.

[Ojanen]

Your basic points are that:
1)I wasn't taking enough initiative on the BaB case to warrant voting.
~Well, so what? Every vote on a wagon doesn't need to be a bastion of original thought for it to necessary. Almost all of the large games I have played in recently have been drowned by the town not being able to come to a concensus on the lynch. I don't see a need for Day 1 to go on to 50 or 60 pages. It hurts the town overall, which is what I said when I voted. I'd rather put my vote on a wagon I think is just ok so the game can make good progress forward, than I would argue for other 20 pages trying to convince people that I am right. I have made that mistake before and it's simply frustrating. I'll ask you this as a counterpoint, had BaB lived D1, do you think the cloud of suspicion surrounding him would have gone away or been any help to the town whatsoever? You can condemn it as me being lazy, but I still say it was the proper play for the town at that time.

The thought I actually had differs from the one you answer to - it was that you were hovering around saying that he's an ok lynch twice earlier and quasi-supporting the bandwagon and supporting the claim but not having any initiative or curiosity to actually bringing up any points or arguments. Just an open door for your voting convenience.
"Day 1 shouldn't go on for 50 pages" isn't a real answer to that (note the exaggeration too). And yes, bridges probably had to die soner or later.

2) You don't like me questioning ekiM's RVS comment.
~Not the main reason I find him scummy. Iamausername likes to keep bringing this up, but I would say that since he made that comment he has several other scummy actions. I pointed out what I thought were the main points. Those are ignored to talk about the RVS comment ad nauseum.

You are only convincing me more you are scum with this.
You answer to a completely different thing here.
You voted for ekiM almost the whole of yesterday because of that comment. That is relevant. Not your case now.

And that is the extent of your "strong" accusations against me. Like I said before, I'm not arguing that my play was the best on D1, but I fail to see how the points you are bringing up are lynch worthy when there are much better targets out there (in addition to players who are simply getting free lurking passes).

Another murky description. I said my

language

was strong about disliking you in my first post about you before unvoting ekiM (to prove that you sprouted a completely false statement about the tide).
You ignored 752 which was actually the post where I more transparently try to explain why your iso felt so bad in my gut.

Now, regarding you being scummy. Honestly, I think I overreacted last night. I was tired and pissed off. You're actually one of the players that I felt was more likely town. I don't even want to keep arguing that point because it's not something I really believe. I think what is really upsetting me are that people are buying into iamausernames OMGUS attack on me.

I don't usually like to go on about OMGUS but your reaction seemed to be that in it's purest. After having been shown to have sprouted several factually false statements you try to retreat now.
I completely dislike that you try to reduce iamausername's points to OMGUS.

[Xylthixlm]

Thank you charter for demonstrating what a chainsaw defense is

[VP Baltar]

I'm not even going to go point by point through this mountain of bullshit because no one seems to be listening to me anyhow and I don't like to waste my time. When I flip vanilla, please proceed to lynch iam and ekiM.

Charter is right about my wagon ballooning due to scum. At least someone has some damn sense.

Goodnight nurse.

[elvis_knits]

Hmmm one page bandwagon goes L-1? That was awesome.

unvote

[charter]

Hmmm one page bandwagon goes L-1? That was awesome.

unvote

Massive FOS. You come back to just unvote? No comment on the wagon? No comment on VP? Nothing? I had been thinking that kmd/elvis was town/town, but this is too ridiculous to ignore. Elvis gets added to my scumlist.

Also Xyl, I didn't defend VP, I said I don't think he's scum. Also, that is miles off a chainsaw defense. Ok?

[elvis_knits]

Well, I still believe what I said about VP in my last post where I voted him, but I don't want to quicklynch the guy.

Plus, basically all my other top suspects are voting VP, which makes me a little worried.

[Shabba]

Vote Count:

8 to lynch.

VP Baltar: 6 (ekiM, iamausername, Ojanen, SerialClergyman, Thesp, Xylthixlm)
ekiM: 3 (Kmd4390, populartajo, VP Baltar)
SerialClergyman: 3 (roflcopter, Yosarian2, zu_Faul)
charter: 1 (PookyTheMagicalBear)
Xylthixlm: 1 (charter)

Not Voting: 1 (elvis_knits)

-mith, too lazy to log out of Shabba's account.

[charter]

Well, I still believe what I said about VP in my last post where I voted him, but I don't want to quicklynch the guy.

Plus, basically all my other top suspects are voting VP, which makes me a little worried.

So you're not asking for a claim or anything? Are you still planning on voting him or what? Who is worrying you? Why? Come on...

[elvis_knits]

I'm not trying to be difficult charter. I felt like I needed to unvote before I decided what I thought about everything, since VP went from nothing to L-1 in less than a day. If I'm being a bit indecisive it's because things happened so fast, and also I have some RL stuff going on.

I am not entirely sure the wagon is bad yet since I do think VP's original case on ekiM wasn't very strong, and also his iamausername case was different than mine and had points I didn't care for.

On the other hand, iamausername has seemed scummy to me too, and so have Mike and serial. They're all on the wagon. Plus Xyl, who votes for no reason, putting VP L-1, no less. So I'm not comfortable with any of them either. Username in particular worries me because he had problems with VP before, but had opted to vote rofl. Yet when there was VP support, he came right over. Sort of like if there hadn't been support, he wouldn't have gone for VP. Which is reactive rather than playing to his own conscience. I guess of the 4 I find suspicious on the wagon, iam and xyl are the most.

[Ojanen]

Charter seems to have missed that Baltar claimed vanilla.

I curse at the disabled search.
@Yos, zu_Faul, tajo, roflcopter: please kindly list the other games if any you are currently in.

[VP Baltar]

When you give a reason [regarding finding iam scummy yesterday], the only thing you seem to have is that he was supported a BAB claim without voting for him immediately, which seems utterly innocuous to me. Supporting a claim is obviously support the wagon/lynch, too.

IAUN supports B&B wagon and claim. No idea why he votes roflcopter.

Not sure on the need to mention it if it's so innocuous to you. I gave a reason awhile back why a hypo-scum IAAUN might do that, but that was of course stupid and not scumhunting in your eyes.

unvote; Vote VP Baltar

Why I am voting for VP Baltar

• He voted me for making a facetious comment towards the start of the day, and left that vote there for the entire day. He was happy to leave his vote there until I "answered his questions". Well, his one question: Explain how that facetious comment was funny. He left the vote there because that comment was "seriously scummy".
  
  Translation: Not moving your vote around is scummy. Response: I disagree.
  
  
• Contra the above, VP has totally failed to explain at any point how that comment was scummy, and is now not interested in discussing it. It is, after all, insignificant bullshit.
  
  Throwing out blanket suspicion and then later saying it was a joke when called out is scummy to me. The reason I pointed out your

  serious

  vote on Xyl is that I don't see how you expect people to interpret one part as a joke and another as serious when you give no real indication of that in the post. You seem quite capable of being sarcastic when you want, so I don't see that particular post in that way. The reason I said it's insignificant now is that I pointed out several more important reasons why you are scummy, but you seem to be trying to strawman my case into this one point. That's what I don't like about it.
  
  
• With his vote safely planted on a V/LAer, his commitments to suspicions yesterday were distinctly underwhelming. See post 765.
  
  I don't agree, but whatever. I can't change your mind if that's your opinion. I think I was plenty clear on where I stood even if I was being lazy and not scumhunting hard
  
  
• Avoiding clear comment or involvement with any of the wagons yesterday. Especially the vaguely saying BAB wagon/lynch was good, without reasons.
  
  I put him at L-1. If that's not involvement I don't know what is. I was clear in why I voted him as well. I never claimed that I was contributing heavily to the case, just that I agreed with some of the points people were making. If you dont' like it, so be it
  
  
• Declared iamausername scum then didn't seem very interested in explaining why or questioning him.
  
  I thought it was a pretty clear reference to his vote bouncing. See what happens when you don't explain things?
  
  
• Sudden revived interest in me today when I make myself look like an ass and an easy target with my Elvis spasm.
  
  Except where I was questioning you and said I would still support your lynch today well before that today.
  
  
• Garbage case. I think he just thinks I'm an easy target.
  
  That must be it.
  
  
• Accusing anyone who defends me of chainsawing.
  
  I believe iam was the only person I actually accused of this. Still believe it's true
  
  
• Interactions with iamausername all of today are just off.
  
  Wow, let me defend against that

---

Responses [to the case I posted]:

• My scum hunting when I was V/LA was non-existant, yes. Well done. When I came back and decided BAB was scum, I based the rest of my suspicions on that, yes. How gauche. Now, how is either of those scummy?
  
  You know very well I wasn't referring to you being V/LA. I implore people to look at your posts in iso. You vote BaB on like page six as his wagon is gaining significant backing. Then when you come back the only scumhunting you really do is to say that anyone trying to stop his wagon is his buddy. Like I said before, my play wasn't exactly great yesterday, but you saying it's bad is the height of hypocrisy.
  
  
• Nope.
  
  Yeah you did. Particularly in some of your catch-up posts. I'm not saying it's everywhere, but it is definitely there, imo.
  
  
• It's not a contradiction.
  
  That's up to interpretation.
  
  
• How strange that the biggest event of yesterday should inform my suspicions for today. Seriously, what is the point of compalining about that?
  It's the way you are doing it that is scummy. He flipped town and now you are arguing that the people who weren't as gung-ho about his lynch as you are the most scummy for that. If anything, your fixation on him yesterday and all things related looks scummy to me
  
  
  
• You do have a point on Xyl though. He actually unvoted to allow BAB time, not to spare him. So ignore that part.
  
  I won't ignore it, but I'm glad you admit it at least
  
  
  Anyway I updated my suspicions on you a bit now I'm back in the game and swinging! Woo!

[elvis_knits]

[*]Avoiding clear comment or involvement with any of the wagons yesterday. Especially the vaguely saying BAB wagon/lynch was good, without reasons.

I put him at L-1. If that's not involvement I don't know what is. I was clear in why I voted him as well. I never claimed that I was contributing heavily to the case, just that I agreed with some of the points people were making. If you dont' like it, so be it

I think that VP could be accused of not using his vote enough yesterday, but I don't think it's fair to say he didn't comment. Also, I didn't remember VP put BaB at L-1, which makes him seem a little better in my eyes, since he did eventually start using his vote. Mike doesn't seem to mention this, which is a bad ommision.

Overall, I like VP's answers in his last post and it brought some things to my attention, like that he put BaB at L-1, which I didn't remember. That makes him more proactive than I remember him, and more proactive than ekiM is saying he was.

vote ekiM

since he has the most votes of the people I suspect, and I think that he was unfair in some of his points on VP.

[charter]

I'm not trying to be difficult charter. I felt like I needed to unvote before I decided what I thought about everything, since VP went from nothing to L-1 in less than a day. If I'm being a bit indecisive it's because things happened so fast, and also I have some RL stuff going on.

I am not entirely sure the wagon is bad yet since I do think VP's original case on ekiM wasn't very strong, and also his iamausername case was different than mine and had points I didn't care for.

On the other hand, iamausername has seemed scummy to me too, and so have Mike and serial. They're all on the wagon. Plus Xyl, who votes for no reason, putting VP L-1, no less. So I'm not comfortable with any of them either. Username in particular worries me because he had problems with VP before, but had opted to vote rofl. Yet when there was VP support, he came right over. Sort of like if there hadn't been support, he wouldn't have gone for VP. Which is reactive rather than playing to his own conscience. I guess of the 4 I find suspicious on the wagon, iam and xyl are the most.

This is one of the biggest fluff posts I have ever seen. You need to state what you actually/supposedly think on all of these issues instead of saying "well, I think it could be this, but that also makes sense" When you unvoted, you said nothing about not wanting a lynch yet, it was only after I questioned you, so it seems to me like you were trying to save face (or revote if VP gets condemned) while "deciding". Also when you unvoted, I got the sense that the wagon growing that big and fast pleased you, but now that seems to have changed.

I feel like the last part describes you very well too, along with others who voted VP.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure voting you at this point would only be followed by kmd, and that's not going to accomplish anything, so it's Xyl or Thesp for me.

(yes I missed VP's claim, but he isn't scum, so he shouldn't be lynched)

Also, Pooky, you need to do something. Starting with putting down a serious vote and serious scumhunting or you're just going to be added to the scumgroup by default. IAUN, you also need to put down a vote on someone who can actually get votes, or start pushing your rofl case way harder, because right now you're just sitting on the sidelines (though not as bad as Pooky).

Regardless of all this, Xyl is scum and needs votes.

[charter]

vote ekiM

since he has the most votes of the people I suspect, and I think that he was unfair in some of his points on VP.

Who are the top three people you suspect and in what order?

[Ojanen]

VP still screams scum for me.
I thought the L-1 vote was discussed quite a lot. I don't really see how an "overload of information, ok I'll vote BaB and someone should hammer" post makes Baltar more pro-townly involved exactly.
IAUN is voting VP so sideline accusation is sloppy from charter.
Not gonna repeat myself endlessly here but

Throwing out blanket suspicion and then later saying it was a joke when called out is scummy to me. The reason I pointed out your serious vote on Xyl is that I don't see how you expect people to interpret one part as a joke and another as serious when you give no real indication of that in the post. You seem quite capable of being sarcastic when you want, so I don't see that particular post in that way. The reason I said it's insignificant now is that I pointed out several more important reasons why you are scummy, but you seem to be trying to strawman my case into this one point. That's what I don't like about it.

VP is answering again and again and again about his case today when are trying to talk about his one weak reason for voting ekiM for the vast majority of D1 in that context.

[elvis_knits]

I'm not trying to be difficult charter. I felt like I needed to unvote before I decided what I thought about everything, since VP went from nothing to L-1 in less than a day. If I'm being a bit indecisive it's because things happened so fast, and also I have some RL stuff going on.

I am not entirely sure the wagon is bad yet since I do think VP's original case on ekiM wasn't very strong, and also his iamausername case was different than mine and had points I didn't care for.

On the other hand, iamausername has seemed scummy to me too, and so have Mike and serial. They're all on the wagon. Plus Xyl, who votes for no reason, putting VP L-1, no less. So I'm not comfortable with any of them either. Username in particular worries me because he had problems with VP before, but had opted to vote rofl. Yet when there was VP support, he came right over. Sort of like if there hadn't been support, he wouldn't have gone for VP. Which is reactive rather than playing to his own conscience. I guess of the 4 I find suspicious on the wagon, iam and xyl are the most.

This is one of the biggest fluff posts I have ever seen. You need to state what you actually/supposedly think on all of these issues instead of saying "well, I think it could be this, but that also makes sense" When you unvoted, you said nothing about not wanting a lynch yet, it was only after I questioned you, so it seems to me like you were trying to save face (or revote if VP gets condemned) while "deciding". Also when you unvoted, I got the sense that the wagon growing that big and fast pleased you, but now that seems to have changed.

My mind wasn't made up at that point. That's why I unvoted without voting anyone. I needed to think about it, and didn't want VP sitting at L-1 when I hadn't had time to discuss anything with him. My mind is more made up more after seeing VP's latest response to EkiM's case. I'm not as worried about VP as I was before.

Regardless, what part of unvoting made you think I wanted VP lynched?

I did think it was sort of awesome though because the more people we can get voting, and making pivotal votes (like Xyl going L-1 for no reason), the better we can judge everyone by. So in that sense I was sort of pleased to see things happening. But I didn't want to lynch VP at that point, HENCE THE UNVOTE.

Also I call BS on you calling other people out for not contributing enough, seeing as you haven't been here at all today until now.

And I am most suspicious of ekiM, xyl, iam, kmd, serial. Top three are pretty close in terms of order.

[Yosarian2]

Been away for the weekend, catching up now.

He's now saying that he went back and reread the KMD/elvis exchange, and that was when he decided that KMD was scummy. Now, that's a story that fits the facts, and would have made perfect sense if it wasn't coming immediately after insisting that you'd been saying KMD was scummy all along. As it is, though, you appear to be admitting to a lie right there.

When did I ever claim that?

I never said "I was suspicious of KMD all along", or anything like that. What I said, at the time, was

I did make clear yesterday that I suspected KMD, you know.

"yesterday", in this context, means "on day 1". Which was true.

I never tried to claim that "I was suspicious of KMD all along". I was just refuting Ojanen's claim that my attack on KMD was sudden or a "severe change", when I thought my problems with KMD were clear from my late day 1 posts.

...am I writing my posts in Latin or something this game? It feels like everything I say this game is getting either misunderstood or misinterpreted by someone.

[iamausername]

Post #525:

In other words, just like I said yesterday, by not stepping in and responding to Elvis' initial post on page 4, and instad hearing KMD's defense and all that, I was able to figure out that KMD is probably scum and Elvis is probably town. Which is what I've been saying all along.

[Yosarian2]

Also, Iamusername's attack against ROFL here dosn't make any sense to me. Do you really think ROFL acting overly confident is a scum tell coming from him? Have you ever seen him not act that way?

On a side note, I'm a little creeped out by Thesp's offhand comment, apparently based on nothing, that he'd be happy voting me. The only thing Thesp said about me in that post was that my rolefishing comment was a "reach".

[Yosarian2]

Post #525:

In other words, just like I said yesterday, by not stepping in and responding to Elvis' initial post on page 4, and instad hearing KMD's defense and all that, I was able to figure out that KMD is probably scum and Elvis is probably town. Which is what I've been saying all along.

Well, yes. Almost that exact phrase was what I had said late on day 1.

I used the word "yesterday" in that post 6 different times, I even made it clear, in that very post you just quoted, that it was "especially later in the day" that I was suspicious of KMD. The whole point of that post was to demonstrate that Ojanen was wrong, in that my day 2 suspicion of KMD was not a sudden or "severe" change on my part. Which, frankly, is a pretty weak reason to attack someone anyway; town should make sudden and severe changes, but that's kind of beside the point here.

Later, when someone else asked me the (rather different) question of why my opinion slowly changed during the course of day 1, I answered that one as well.

[Kmd4390]

Guess what. Laptop access. Let's see what I can do.

Serial, I can't elaborate on why, but I don't think your lurking was scummy and that was the case against you for a while. The way people have jumped on you worries me a bit. Pretty sure 1-2 scum are voting you right now.

Bah, I see you answered that here. And by "answered that" I mean that you gave a response with no actual reason/answer.

I find this response very scummy because you discount the lurking (which is scummy) and then rain on the parade of people who are actually trying to do something in this game, and make vague accusations about 1-2 people on the wagon being scum.

What about the way people have "jumped" on serial worries you? If you think 1-2 scum are on the wagon, which 1-2?

Ok, now that the game is over, Mafia 96. Serial was more active there and I was suspicious of him. Turns out he was scum. The main case against him was lurking, right? I think he's town and scum jumped on him for lurking.

KMD

Please explain:

• Which claims would NOT have prompted an unvote from you yesterday.
  
• Why you barely tried to detail the BAB wagon after unvoting.
  
• At what point you became suspicious of me.
  
• Why you are voting for me.

-I don't know. I've already explained over and over again why scum wouldn't have claimed vanilla.
-V/LA
-first couple of pages
-I think you are scum.

----------------------

VP wagon came out of nowhere. I think he's town, but the claim has nothing to do with that. I can see scum claiming vanilla now that Bridge was obvtown due to his claim.

---------------------

Tajo, you wanted my Yosmeta. A newb game just ended where I knew he was town because I was scum. So that's half of what I was using.

[Thesp]

Overall, I like VP's answers in his last post and it brought some things to my attention, like that he put BaB at L-1, which I didn't remember.

He did this when I felt it was fairly clear that B&B was going to be lynched anyway, and he seemd preemptively defensive about his vote when placing it.

I thought the L-1 vote was discussed quite a lot. I don't really see how an "overload of information, ok I'll vote BaB and someone should hammer" post makes Baltar more pro-townly involved exactly.

QFT.

I'm good with a VP Baltar lynch. Yosarian2, what do you think?