/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[iamausername]

P.S.

elvis. I want you to stop ignoring the thing presented directly to you in at least 910, 792, 799 and say why you would think Baltar was anyhow townishly involved with the BAB vote.

ELVIS. DO THIS.

[SerialClergyman]

I've also read the mind screw mafia he was nominated for, so I have some contrast. But my main point was elvis' point about Xyl's style doesn't really hold, given I have literally just finished a game where he did exactly the same thing as town.

Also, tbh I think your play has been much different from that game. That game you were so desperate to scumhunt and get scum lynched you got yourself NKed for being obvtown. This game, I see nothing of the sort.

But that's a minor thing, meta has never really been a big factor in my game.

[elvis_knits]

elvis. I want you to stop ignoring the thing presented directly to you in at least 910, 792, 799 and say why you would think Baltar was anyhow townishly involved with the BAB vote.

ELVIS. DO THIS.

Bah. Why? I don't remember anything that was worthwhile.

[*]Avoiding clear comment or involvement with any of the wagons yesterday. Especially the vaguely saying BAB wagon/lynch was good, without reasons.

I put him at L-1. If that's not involvement I don't know what is. I was clear in why I voted him as well. I never claimed that I was contributing heavily to the case, just that I agreed with some of the points people were making. If you dont' like it, so be it

I think that VP could be accused of not using his vote enough yesterday, but I don't think it's fair to say he didn't comment. Also, I didn't remember VP put BaB at L-1, which makes him seem a little better in my eyes, since he did eventually start using his vote. Mike doesn't seem to mention this, which is a bad ommision.

Overall, I like VP's answers in his last post and it brought some things to my attention, like that he put BaB at L-1, which I didn't remember. That makes him more proactive than I remember him, and more proactive than ekiM is saying he was.

vote ekiM

since he has the most votes of the people I suspect, and I think that he was unfair in some of his points on VP.

Hey Elvis, when you wrote this were you aware VP made that vote in the third last post in the game, when BAB's lynch was inevitable (not earlier, pre-claim)? If so, how was that proactive?

I wasn't aware of that exactly when I made that post. But I don't feel like doing a whole reread of VP at this point when it's obvious that his wagon is bad. The 1-page almost lynch is not normal. Xyl giving no reason for putting VP L-1 is not normal. ekiM and serial and username, all top suspects for me being on the lynch and staying on the lynch... all these things make me think the wagon is BAD. So I don't feel like wasting my time doing a reread of VP at this point.

---

As for 792, not sure what I'm supposed to answer. It doesn't look directed to me. IT seems sort of related to the last post. I don't feel like arguing about VP when it's so obvious to me that he's town from the way the wagon built and who is voting him.

---

799 is from thesp asking about the same thing.

Overall, I like VP's answers in his last post and it brought some things to my attention, like that he put BaB at L-1, which I didn't remember.

He did this when I felt it was fairly clear that B&B was going to be lynched anyway, and he seemd preemptively defensive about his vote when placing it.

I just reread VP's vote post, and I do'nt see what is preemptively defensive. SO I need more explanation if you want me to answer this.

Although I really think this is a waste of time.

[elvis_knits]

P.S.

elvis. I want you to stop ignoring the thing presented directly to you in at least 910, 792, 799 and say why you would think Baltar was anyhow townishly involved with the BAB vote.

ELVIS. DO THIS.

I WAS.

[SerialClergyman]

Iam doesn't know how to talk to women, he comes from Surrey, so that's why he's getting ignored while elvis and I are having a nice conversation.

Well elvis, remember he was scummy enough for you to add your vote to the wagon. So in both situations, someone you found scummy was run up to a vanilla claim, and you reacted differently. As you say, there were differences, and I accept that, but I think the situations are more similar than you're acknowledging.

[mith]

Vote Count:

8 to lynch.

VP Baltar: 6 (ekiM, iamausername, Ojanen, SerialClergyman, Thesp, Xylthixlm)
Xylthixlm: 5 (charter, PookyTheMagicalBear, roflcopter, VP Baltar, Yosarian2)
ekiM: 4 (elvis_knits, Kmd4390, populartajo, zu_Faul)

[elvis_knits]

Well elvis, remember he was scummy enough for you to add your vote to the wagon. So in both situations, someone you found scummy was run up to a vanilla claim, and you reacted differently. As you say, there were differences, and I accept that, but I think the situations are more similar than you're acknowledging.

BaB issues were discussed ad nauseum before he claimed, and no explanations made me think he was town. VP wagon built in one page and VP didn't have time to even discuss anything. I did not feel comfortable lynching VP that way. It was very different from BaB. If you want to keep comparing apples and oranges because they have one thing in common (THEY'RE FRUIT!!!!1111), go ahead!

I want to ask you serial, and everyone else still on the VP wagon:

Didn't the speed of the wagon worry you?

Do you often see a wagon build on scum that fast?

[iamausername]

Didn't the speed of the wagon worry you?

No. But then, I had town reads on almost everyone who joined it.

Do you often see a wagon build on scum that fast?

No. Do you often see a wagon on town build that fast? Outside of lylo situations, I mean.

[VP Baltar]

Because you'll find out who would be willing to hammer without waiting for a claim.

Which proves what exactly? I know I am town and, imo, the town is best served by NOT mislynching me. Even though I'm vanilla and not all that useful in the grand scheme of things, I don't see any benefit to me not claiming and thus encouraging my death even further. At least give the town a chance to lynch scum and if a vig wants to spend a shot on me, then so be it. That's how I see it.

or to put it more succinctly:

For VP, the logic would be "at worst vanilla, at best vanilla." Which is a lose-lose proposition.

[SerialClergyman]

elvis - fair enough.

The speed of the wagon didn't bother me for the opposite reason it DID bother you.

These were the 7 that put him to L-1

ekiM, iamausername, Ojanen, SerialClergyman, Thesp, Xylthixlm, elvis

I think iam, Ojanen, Xyl are town. I am town. Thesp I'm leaning town on, elvis I'm neutral (conflicted) on. eKim I'm neutral on, but I didn't like his reasons, so say that's one leaning scummy.

So judging by my reads that wagon is town-fuelled, and I'm happy to be on it.

And all of that ignores the fact I don't like how VP has been playing and think he's likely to be scum in a vacuum (ie without even looking at the wagons).

[VP Baltar]

I think your play has been much different from that game. That game you were so desperate to scumhunt and get scum lynched you got yourself NKed for being obvtown. This game, I see nothing of the sort.

1) You were in scum in that game, so you by default knew I had a higher chance of being town (though there was still a chance I could have been opposing scum).

2) It is really an interest thing for me. If I'm really into a game, I'm more inclined to go out of my way to work hard. I do have bad games as town as well. Go to my wiki and look at Pale Moon Rising. I played awful that game as town partially because I was being lazy in my scumhunting and I tripped on my own words. I'm not exactly proud of it, but it happens.


@ek-You should come over to the Xyl wagon so all this ramming of one's head against a wall can end.

Same goes for kmd, tajo and zu_faul. Once he flips scum it should be very easy to pick out the rest of his buddies on my wagon.

[SerialClergyman]

I'm not sure what your 1) is meant to say.. I didn't NK you, the other scum team did. I'm just saying, and anyone can check, that you were a town cop but were so bursting with pugilistic towniness that you couldn't even stay quiet and protect your role (you played awesome by the way, and had the other mafia gone for us like they should have you'd have stayed around for a while - not having a go at you or your playstyle)). However, that's in marked contrast to you now.

And I get the interest point is a possible explanation for your actions, and I get that interest can greatly affect your posting (look at my day 1 vs my emerald posting at the time), it just doesn't do much do discourage my vote on you. To borrow elvis' argument structure, worst case you're unmotivated, unhunting vanilla, best case you're scum.

[VP Baltar]

you were a town cop but were so bursting with pugilistic towniness that you couldn't even stay quiet and protect your role

I'm not arguing that point really, but I would say that was partially motivated by how much Mastin was driving me freaking nuts in that game and i was willing to go to no end to get his scummy self lynched.

What is annoying me slightly in this game is that people seem so resigned to my lynch that they are not even listening to the arguments I'm making, especially when it comes to ekiM.

Do you think I'm being honestly unreasonable when I pointed out that him approaching the game yesterday with the preconceived notion of BaB being scum is in itself scummy?

I really don't get how the main argument against me largely comes down to lazy scumhunting, and yet that (and Xyl's play among others) is being excused or even deemed as coming from town.

[Xylthixlm]

A good part of why I have a townread on Xyl is that his behaviour is actually very similar to a game I just played with him as town here.

So most of your reason for thinking him town is because of a one game meta? Have you ever seen him as scum? How do you know his play isn't similar regardless of alignment?

It might not prove I'm town but it sure contradicts the argument that my play proves I'm scum, doesn't it?

roflcopter was totally convinced I was scum in that game too, btw.

[Xylthixlm]

So I don't feel like wasting my time doing a reread of VP at this point.

Bad elvis. You're off my townlist.

[VP Baltar]

It might not prove I'm town but it sure contradicts the argument that my play proves I'm scum, doesn't it?

My point is that without balanced research it can't really be considered point in your town favor column. Surely you can appreciate that.

[populartajo]

I definitely want a Xyl wagon after this.

i was under the impression that xyl had understood the implied message the first time i told him to stop voting for yos, but apparently the tidal wave of people who demand more explanation has emboldened him to go ahead and pretend he doesn't catch my drift either.

This.

Fine, I guess I've made my point
unvote, vote VP Baltar
Don't forget that Yos is scum

I dont like the revote for Baltar as soon as the wagon starts to grow against you. No, you havent made your point on why Yos is scum. Your accusation is silly and in no way should have made you go away of the wagon you put at L-1. Am I the only one here?

Interesting, I missed that. elvis?

This reeks so much of scum its not funny. Why are you supporting an attack to a person you just called town 1 page ago. And even worse for the same reason. (!)

What's the significance of the 'panicked unvote', Xyl?

Person who makes it is town.
I was kind of disappointed it was elvis, since I already thought she was town.

Unvote Vote: Xyl.

[roflcopter]

roflcopter was totally convinced I was scum in that game too, btw.

wow, if there's one terrible fallacious argument i hate more than all others its "you were wrong about me last game so somehow that means you're wrong about me this game too" and all of its awful variants, like the above that seems meant to convince everyone

else

that since i was wrong about you in mafia 96 i must also be wrong about you here.

[Xylthixlm]

It might not prove I'm town but it sure contradicts the argument that my play proves I'm scum, doesn't it?

My point is that without balanced research it can't really be considered point in your town favor column. Surely you can appreciate that.

Oh? It negates any "but he wouldn't play this way as town" arguments. I'd say that's worth considering.

[VP Baltar]

Oh? It negates any "but he wouldn't play this way as town" arguments.

No, it does not if you play the same way as scum. A one game meta where you were town does nothing to counteract that fact.

[Xylthixlm]

i was under the impression that xyl had understood the implied message the first time i told him to stop voting for yos, but apparently the tidal wave of people who demand more explanation has emboldened him to go ahead and pretend he doesn't catch my drift either.

I've seen you play this pretend-you-have-role-info-to-clear-someone trick before and I am not buying it.

wow, if there's one terrible fallacious argument i hate more than all others its "you were wrong about me last game so somehow that means you're wrong about me this game too" and all of its awful variants, like the above that seems meant to convince everyone else that since i was wrong about you in mafia 96 i must also be wrong about you here.

You said the same thing in mafia 96, except there it was about being wrong in war in heaven.

Anyways, I'm not trying to convince you you're wrong. That's impossible. But the fact that you pretty consistently think I'm scum when I'm not is probably relevant to other players considering your arguments.

[zu_Faul]

Someone asked me about my opinion on Yos2.

I think it is really obvious that Yos2 is not the lynch today, and probably also not tomorrow. Because it is so obvious I am not telling you guys any further.

Last pages were mainly town people discussing, while charter posted scummily again. I am worried about Xyl a bit now. I consider using my head here.

I'd never want to lynch Thesp now. Even after the directing the vig. Or maybe because of it?

More later this evening.

[Xylthixlm]

Oh? It negates any "but he wouldn't play this way as town" arguments.

No, it does not if you play the same way as scum. A one game meta where you were town does nothing to counteract that fact.

It negates any "but he wouldn't play this way as town arguments"

even if I play the same way as scum

. That should be transparently obvious. "He wouldn't do X" is proved false by an instance of me doing X, where in this case X is "playing this way as town". How I have played in other games is totally irrelevant.

Sure, it doesn't disprove the more subtle "he would be less likely to play this way as town" argument, but that's not what I said.

[populartajo]

i was under the impression that xyl had understood the implied message the first time i told him to stop voting for yos, but apparently the tidal wave of people who demand more explanation has emboldened him to go ahead and pretend he doesn't catch my drift either.

I've seen you play this pretend-you-have-role-info-to-clear-someone trick before and I am not buying it.

So why did you buy it the first time, when you unvoted Yos when rolf said the same thing about him?

Also, are you implying here that rolf is scum? Because I have a strong town rolf read.

[roflcopter]

I've seen you play this pretend-you-have-role-info-to-clear-someone trick before and I am not buying it.

wait, i've done that?