/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[Yosarian2]

Kmd, could you explain again why you think Elvis is scum? Because between the two of you, I find you significantly more suspicious.

[Kmd4390]

Mostly the reaction to my initial vote.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

omg not shabba i really wanted to play with her

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

lets lynch charter, but not tell him why.

vote charter

[Ojanen]

I wanna reread some when I have time later today (several of my tentative scumreads just flipped town), but I note one thing that feels insincere to me.

I asked ekiM yesterday whether he thought the thing about BaB saying he didn't like the reasoning behind Elvis' thought process about BaB+Xyl being mafia together was scummy.
(I referred to roflcopter 298 in the question.)

The response I got was

It was said that Xyl + B&B scum together is unlikely. Scum-B&B has much more motivation to undermine this than town-B&B does, so I do think it's a scumtell, yes.

Why he was among the people I asked it from?
His own opinion at the time was:

Elvis saying scum wouldn't start RVS bandwagons on one another is a bit silly. Describing it as "pushing for their buddies lynch" is sillier.

Agreeing with BaB that Elvis' idea was silly, but later not batting an eyelash in finding that agreed thought a scumtell feels scummy to me.
I know the difference is in who has what motivation to say it, but the thought process still just feels alien to honest scumhunting.

I have townish gutreads on both Elvis and Kmd, btw.

[VP Baltar]

Vote: SerialClergyman

OH HAI!

Overnight I realized how much he was posting in another game while completely avoiding this one at all costs yesterday. He's the quintessential lurker scum.

Other than that, I need to do some rereading.

[Kmd4390]

I could support some pressure on Serial.

[zu_Faul]

Which game, VP Baltar? I assumed that his absense was legitimate.

I think Thesp is a good citizen.

There are still some questions directed at ekiM, would love an answer.

[elvis_knits]

vote iamausername

could go for serial though.

[VP Baltar]

Which game, VP Baltar? I assumed that his absense was legitimate.

It's an ongoing game, so I can't really talk about it, but there are a few players in this game who are/were in that game and can back up what I'm saying.

[iamausername]

Just because you didn't actually vote doesn't mean you weren't saying you were going to. In fact, you spent most of the post building up to it and then dropped the rofl vote. Now, maybe you were indeed waiting for a claim before voting or maybe you were just hesitant about looking scummy so close to the hammer. I think that is where I am interpreting your rofl vote differently. I mean, if what you are saying is true, why spend so much time stating your intent to vote BnB? Why wouldn't you condense it down and say something like 'I support the BnB wagon, but I think we need to hear a claim first'? Seems to me like you were telegraphing your punches.

I tried reading this again, and it still doesn't make any sense. I made it very clear that I intended to vote BaB if his claim didn't give me a good reason not to, therefore you doubt that I was actually waiting for a claim? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

Don't leave me hangin', VP.

rofl, can I get a list of all large games you have been in where the number of scum was not public knowledge from the beginning?

It's an ongoing game, so I can't really talk about it, but there are a few players in this game who are/were in that game and can back up what I'm saying.

My understanding is that pointing out the times that a player has posted in an ongoing game is not a problem, as long as you aren't talking about the actual content of those posts. I know for a fact that the mod of the game in question wouldn't have a problem with that, at any rate.

I need to reread, but this seems like a good place to park my vote in the mean time.

Vote: SerialClergyman

[VP Baltar]

I tried reading this again, and it still doesn't make any sense. I made it very clear that I intended to vote BaB if his claim didn't give me a good reason not to, therefore you doubt that I was actually waiting for a claim? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

I'm not seeing where you "made it very clear" that your vote on BaB was dependant upon his claim. All I see was you put something like 'I support a BaB claim'. So, yeah, I think my interpretation of your post is still accurate. I think you may have been feeling out a place on the wagon without jumping right on when it was so close to a lynch.

[SerialClergyman]

Y'ello.

My apologies for my lack of input into the game. You'll notice that of my 4 active games, 2 are getting a lot of attention and 2 aren't. That's a direct result of how late the game has gone on - I naturally post more towards the end of a game than in the early stages and it's just been massively exacerbated by an extremely important RL issue.

So apologies, but so it goes. I'll try to give you an idea of where I am with this game some time soon, but for now I'm off to bed.

[iamausername]

I tried reading this again, and it still doesn't make any sense. I made it very clear that I intended to vote BaB if his claim didn't give me a good reason not to, therefore you doubt that I was actually waiting for a claim? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

I'm not seeing where you "made it very clear" that your vote on BaB was dependant upon his claim. All I see was you put something like 'I support a BaB claim'. So, yeah, I think my interpretation of your post is still accurate. I think you may have been feeling out a place on the wagon without jumping right on when it was so close to a lynch.

I made it clear that I had intentions of voting him, and I asked for a claim. I guess I thought people would be able to put two and two together and not get fifty six.

Why do you think I supported the claim, if that had nothing to do with my vote?

[VP Baltar]

I made it clear that I had intentions of voting him, and I asked for a claim. I guess I thought people would be able to put two and two together and not get fifty six.

You've clearly never seen my math skills.

Why do you think I supported the claim, if that had nothing to do with my vote?

It's rather arbitrary to say you support the claim of someone who is at L-2. It's pretty much guaranteed to happen. Also, as I said above, your point was not made as clear as you seem to think it was.

How about this, if you were indeed waiting to see BaB's claim before deciding to vote him, why even bother voting for rofl? Why not wait until BaB's claim and then decide where to vote?

[elvis_knits]

This is a good point... ekiM's answers don't match up here.

I wanna reread some when I have time later today (several of my tentative scumreads just flipped town), but I note one thing that feels insincere to me.

I asked ekiM yesterday whether he thought the thing about BaB saying he didn't like the reasoning behind Elvis' thought process about BaB+Xyl being mafia together was scummy.
(I referred to roflcopter 298 in the question.)

The response I got was

It was said that Xyl + B&B scum together is unlikely. Scum-B&B has much more motivation to undermine this than town-B&B does, so I do think it's a scumtell, yes.

Why he was among the people I asked it from?
His own opinion at the time was:

Elvis saying scum wouldn't start RVS bandwagons on one another is a bit silly. Describing it as "pushing for their buddies lynch" is sillier.

Agreeing with BaB that Elvis' idea was silly, but later not batting an eyelash in finding that agreed thought a scumtell feels scummy to me.
I know the difference is in who has what motivation to say it, but the thought process still just feels alien to honest scumhunting.

I have townish gutreads on both Elvis and Kmd, btw.

---

People I am most suspicious of at this time:

iamausername
ekiM
Serial

[Yosarian2]

Mostly the reaction to my initial vote.

You mean, when she asked you how you knew there were 4 scum in the game, or something along those lines? How is that scummy? It's pretty thin as far as scumtells go, but that early in day 1, I don't have a problem at all with people digging at weak scumtells.

Also, I would agree that eikM looks pretty scummy at the moment. I thought he was scummy yesterday, and Ojanen's argument is good as well; I'd definatly like to hear a response from him ASAP.

[VP Baltar]

ekiM, what are your feelings on who the scum are today given that most of your scumhunting yesterday centered around who was trying to "deflect the B&B wagon"?

[Kmd4390]

Yos, she seemed to be trying to push the "slip" too hard and has backed off now that people aren't following it.

[elvis_knits]

has backed off now that people aren't following it.

Where does that come from? Seeing as people WERE following it yesterday, and I haven't mentioned it today. My decision to move past the slip has nothing to do with other people's behavior.

It's more that most of the people who thought I was wrong turned out town that has made me try to move past the "slip" business. I'm trying to look at you objectively beyond the "slip." However, you did just misrep me.

[Yosarian2]

Eh. I don't really get how "pushing hard" is supposed to be a scumtell. Anyway.her first two posts don't really seem to be pushing it hard at all; seems like she thought it might have been a sign that you knew how many scum were in the game, or it might have been arbitrary.

Vote Elvis_Knits

Not random. Buddies are Bridges, ekiM, and Xyl.

There are exactly four scum in this game? ORLY?

AND yeah, what BNB said, why not vote xyl when there's a wagon on him.

I think this is a potential slip, because I don't think the rules say the number of scum, so I don't knwo why KMD picked that number of people as the scum team. Arbitrary or informed?

Also, it does not make a lot of sense for Xyl and BNB to be buddies anyway since she started the wagon.

I'm thinking this is possibly KMD trying to tie xyl buddy to townies.

Nevermind the rest of the problems, but tell me this KMD,

Where does it say there are four scum? I can't see that.

She didn't vote you at this point, and I suspect if you had just said "Eh, I just named the 4 scummiest people in the game", she would have just dropped it.

But instead, you said stuff like this;

There are exactly four scum in this game? ORLY?

4 scum plus a traitor.

...

I think this is a potential slip, because I don't think the rules say the number of scum, so I don't knwo why KMD picked that number of people as the scum team. Arbitrary or informed?

I actually thought we had 16 players and assumed 25%, but I see we have 20 and the possibility of a traitor, so I'm gonna sound smart and say I wasn't including a traitor in that lol.

and this:

It doesn't. It was my assumption.

Which actually seemed to confirm her origional suspicion, that the reason you named 4 people either because you already knew (or at the very least "assumed") that there were 4 scum in the game, and only then did she really start "pushing it"; it was only after thoses posts that she voted you, for example. Honestly, I don't think there was anything wrong with your origional post, but your defense there looks kind of scummy.

And honestly, I think even you know that your defense there seem off, since you later used sleep deprevation as an excuse for your posts there. And hey, that might be true. But if you know your defensive posts there looked scummy, then why are you voting Elvis because she voted for you after thoses posts?

[elvis_knits]

Dammit Yos, you are drawing me back in! I was trying to forget this!

I also want to add that kmd later said the "4 scum plus a traitor" thing was a joke. If it was a joke, then why was he going on about 25% scum and saying it was an assumption? He didn't need to justify "4 scum plus a traitor" if it was a joke. I feel like his story changed, and that is evidence of a lie.

kmd, why did you justify your comment with percentages and other explanations if it was merely a joke?

[Kmd4390]

EK, people didn't seem to believe the slip yesterday. You backed off of it. That is the impression I get for your reasoning, and I obviously don't expect you to admit that.

Yos, I'm fine with pushing hard. I'm not fine with pushing a "slip" hard.

I explained it accurately. I did assume 4 scum and maybe a traitor. I didn't say it was a joke. EK did. The sarcasm was the certainty of the statement, not the statement itself.

I'll use lack of sleep as an excuse for anything lately. Even outside of mafia.

[Yosarian2]

EK, people didn't seem to believe the slip yesterday. You backed off of it. That is the impression I get for your reasoning, and I obviously don't expect you to admit that.

(shrug) People told her you were kidding, and she basically blinked and said "What? Really?" and then stopped attacking you on that issue. Not sure how that's supposed to be a scum move.

Yos, I'm fine with pushing hard. I'm not fine with pushing a "slip" hard.

Why? On page 4 of day 1, I'm fine with getting a grasp on whatever you can find and pushing it hard. Sure, the initial tell (the statement that might or might not have been a "scum slip") was pretty darn weak, but during a part of the game when most of the town was still on their random votes, that's fine.

And based on your reaction, I strongly suspect that you're mostly just not fine with someone pushing "a slip" hard against you.

I explained it accurately. I did assume 4 scum and maybe a traitor. I didn't say it was a joke. EK did. The sarcasm was the certainty of the statement, not the statement itself.

I'm not really sure where the sarcasm comes in here, if the inital statement was intended to be taken seriously.

Elvis accused you basically of revealing that you knew scum-role based information, a pretty common and standard scum tell. Your defense wasn't "I don't know how many scum are in the game", it was "I think there are 4 scum because of X, Y, and Z information any townie would have", but in the process, you sounded strangly certain of how many scum there were, so she voted you. Then your defense was that the certanty itself was supposed to be sarcasm, or something like that. And then because of all that, you vote for Elvis?

I'm really not buying this. Between this, and you're "bandwagon B&B until we get a vanilla claim and then drop the vote" stuff yesterday, I'm pretty sure you're scum here.

Vote:Kmd

[Ojanen]

I feel like Yos is putting gasoline to a town-town fight and I don't like it.
ESPECIALLY because he didn't want to comment on Kmd vs. Elvis at the time it originally happened.
Also, I do not think Kmd dropping Bridges for vanilla claim was a scumtell. I see little realistic scum benefit (the wagon wasn't gonna lose it bloodlust for that anyway, prospect of getting someone else to claim was unrealistic I think) and the obscurish wifom seemed townish.

Remember this?

Yos, why were you purposely not commenting on me/kmd?

I didn't think your attack on him was especally convincing (I mentioned that breiefly, I believe), but I don't have enough a read on him to defend him at this point, and letting the wagon happen would probably provide more information. About the only valid point made is that the way he defended himself against your accusation was a little odd; he went into a whole long thing about why one would assume there are X scum in the game, which was strange since he really didn't seem to be assuming that in the first place.

That being said, I'm also not too impressed by the attack against you; B&B isn't entierly incorrect that it seems like you overstreached a bit in your attack against KMD, but not to a great degree; you seem a little iffy in some ways, but I don't really think the attack-against-you-for-attacking-KMD really makes sense either.

Anyway, I think we've got a heck of a lot more information then we would have if I had just stepped in right away and said "No, Elvis, you're misinterpreting KMD here". It was much more informative for me to sit back and wait, and see how he defended himself instead, and to see who took sides for him and against him.

(shurg) I was contributing, I thought. I just wasn't talking about the Elvis/KMD/B&B three-way fight much, because I didn't really agree with any of those arguments, but at the same time didn't want to defend any of the three of them.

It doesn't outright contradict his current stance although it's MUCH, much more severe, but Kmd has been consistent with his elvis vote (I don't agree with either but that's not the point here), and now Yos decides to go after him for no apparent new impulse in his behaviour.
It smells of deciding his stance on earlier happenings much afterwards, which town shouldn't need to do.