/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[Xylthixlm]

Interesting, I missed that. elvis?

[roflcopter]

i was under the impression that xyl had understood the implied message the first time i told him to stop voting for yos, but apparently the tidal wave of people who demand more explanation has emboldened him to go ahead and pretend he doesn't catch my drift either.

[roflcopter]

Rofl - any comment on the rolefishing argument or are you leaving that one alone?

it should just be left alone at this point.

Xyl, who of ekiM/VP would you rather lynch?

Same question to Charter, Rofl, Yos, and Pooky.

both wagons give me the heebiejeebies, but of the two i'd go for ekim.

roflcopter, what do you think of Yos's scumlist?

with a few notable exceptions (cough vp baltar cough) its pretty close to my own.

oi. thesp vigdirecting towards yos is terrible. let me make this clear one more time. yos is not scum.

Well, leaving out roflcopter, who despite his reputation as a gut player hasn't gotten any better at reading me

until now, my friend. you've given yourself away this time.

[SerialClergyman]

Rofl, could you do up your 3 most scummy and 3 most townie?

[charter]

So we can lynch Xyl now?

[roflcopter]

Rofl, could you do up your 3 most scummy and 3 most townie?

town:
yos
elvis
charter

scum:
xyl
serialclergyman
kmd

[charter]

Rofl, could you do up your 3 most scummy and 3 most townie?

town:
yos
elvis
charter

scum:
xyl
serialclergyman
kmd

I'm seriously thinking Xyl/Thesp/maybe ekiM triangle. I will have to go back and read up on serial and kmd. What do you think of Thesp?

[SerialClergyman]

Are you making those reads based on individual play or which 'side' they sit on?

[charter]

I've already pointed out connections between Xyl and Thesp, combined with both of their play being questionable at best, and scumalicious at other times, and I'm pretty sure they are scumbuddies. As for the ekiM, too many people are preferring VP (and at times for terrible reasons) over ekiM, I really don't see a reason so many people are ignoring ekiM either, so it looks to me like they are trying to save him. Granted, that's a pretty far out there theory, and we should start by lynching Xyl, and working our way from there.

[roflcopter]

thesp had been sitting firmly in my town category right up until he just suggested the vig shoot yos, at which point my scumdar went ballistic.

kmd sitting on the ekim wagon really makes me think ekim is town

and kmd, honestly, you're going on about how you'd work your magic with yesterday's votecount if only you had it in vote order - let me give you a newsflash. the votes are all there, in the order they were made, right here in this very thread. you just need to click your way back and look.

[Kmd4390]

Rofl, V/LA. When I get back on the 8th, I'll find the time to do it.

[Yosarian2]

Xyl: If you're talking about this post

Ok then...
What has everyone else done to lessen your suspicions of them so much?

Now you're asking the right question. You're not going to like the answer, but you're asking the right question.

roflcopter: I think I know how roflcopter thinks, and this seems to be his town play. Gut feeling town.

elvis_knits: Gut feeling town. Play is consistent with past games where she was town.

zu_Faul: Gut feeling town. I could probably find some quotes on what's giving me that feeling if I need to.

Ojanen: Gut feeling town. (See a pattern?) Somewhat weaker than the first reads; possibly influenced by buddying.

Yosarian2:

Not

gut feeling town. Feels too logical; can't really get a read on what he's really thinking. I think I'll be able to figure out his alignment later, though, and he's an asset for the town, so I'd rather not lynch him.

Thesp: Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling because he's buddying up to me. That's about it.

Everyone in the "undecided" category either has an inconclusive maybe-town read, or I just haven't looked.

then I agree with you that rofl and elvis are obvtown, and zu faul and ojanen are probably town. Which shouldn't be a surprise, since I already said that, and had said some of it since long before your post.

Of course, this is a 15 player game. If you were town, I would expect to be trying a little harder to figure out which of the other 11 people are scum.

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: Xyl

Scum team: ekiM, IAAUN, Xyl, Thesp

Wow, this is so much easier than actually explaining myself. Everyone on the ekiM wagon should come over to the new and improved Xyl wagon.

[Thesp]

I find it very hard to follow the Xylthixlm wagon when I agree with almost everything Xyl says, and I find some of his questions probing and on target.

[elvis_knits]

Serial shows he is scum:

In fact, while I'm rummaging around.. Replace BAB with VP and see if it's the same thought process

Claus, I'd like a scum list too but I'm not going to beg for it and I'm not going to wait 12 days for it. I also think there's no reason why BAB shouldn't be kept close to a lynch in meantime. A vanilla claim from a scummy person should cement their lynch, honestly. I mean, if you're not lynching a vanilla, who would you go through with the lynch on? Keep the claimed vanilla, kill the claimed doc? Because we think scum would fake a power role? That is backwards thinking.

This should be our thinking:
1)BAB is scummy
2)BAB claimed vanilla
3)BAB is either vanilla or scum.
4)If we lynch BAB, we either lynch scum or vanilla, therefore little damage to town, or huge advantage. As a bonus, no power roles have to claim today.

Elvis' philosophy seems to have changed dramatically on D2.

X

I agree that a vanilla claim should not save a person. That is not why the VP wagon is bad. It's because it almost lynched him in one page, and because all the other top suspects are on the lynch!

[iamausername]

his ridiculous "I'm xyl so I don't have to do any work in this game" is a terrible excuse for everyone to label him as town.

Awesome strawman.

I stopped reading the post after this.

That was a pretty terrible idea.

I'm usually fine with lynching anyone who claims vanilla unless I have a good reason to think they're town.

Do you have a good reason to think VP Baltar is town?

It's best to have that information out there

How?

That is not why the VP wagon is bad. It's because it almost lynched him in one page, and because all the other top suspects are on the lynch!

Neither of which say anything about the actual reasons people have for voting VP. Although I guess it's hard to comment on those if you don't even read the posts they're in.

He was scummy and seemed like a good lynch at the time.

You know I'm looking for more detail than this. How was he scummy?

elvis. I want you to stop ignoring the thing presented directly to you in at least 910, 792, 799 and say why you would think Baltar was anyhow townishly involved with the BAB vote.

ELVIS. DO THIS.

[elvis_knits]

Also, Xyl, did you ever give reasons why you voted VP Baltar?

Actually no, it appears I haven't. I did an iso read and decided he wasn't obviously town enough to save. I was also curious who would do the inevitable panicked unvote (it turned out to be elvis). Somewhere in there I reevaluated ekiM too and decided that Baltar was more likely to be scum than ekiM.

I feel like using big red X again.

This is sucky reasoning, and Xyl wasn't even going to post it if I didn't ask him. I don't understand Xyl's mindset this game of "anyone can be scum, so that's the reason for all my crappy votes." That's a scum explanation if I ever saw one. I don't remember him thinking like this in other games.

I am up for lynching ekiM, Xyl, Serial, in that order.

[SerialClergyman]

Your response is fair enough (apart from the random accusation calling me scum for what exactly?)

I'd point out though that your logic of 'at worst vanilla, at best scum' isn't really affected by the points you made to get off his wagon.

[elvis_knits]

Your response is fair enough (apart from the random accusation calling me scum for what exactly?)

I'd point out though that your logic of 'at worst vanilla, at best scum' isn't really affected by the points you made to get off his wagon.

You're scum because you ignored my explanation in order to try to make a point that I was making a contradiction. When in fact I was not contradicting myself.

Me unvoting VP had nothing to do with his claim.

[SerialClergyman]

That's a scum explanation if I ever saw one. I don't remember him thinking like this in other games.

A good part of why I have a townread on Xyl is that his behaviour is actually very similar to a game I just played with him as town here.

He also regularly uses the 'look for town and vote other people' style of play, to great effect (I was scum and it was damn annoying).

[VP Baltar]

How [is giving claim information useful]?

So if people are going to follow through with my lynch they at least know I'm not a power role. I really don't understand the argument 'don't claim unless prompted'. What would you have proposed should have happened, I kept quiet while people followed through with lynching me and then have me potentially come up a power role? How is that benefiting the town?

[SerialClergyman]

Me unvoting VP had nothing to do with his claim.

Well - that's kind of the problem. Last time this happened, the vanilla claim directly affected your actions. This time it didn't. You argued FOR a BAB lynch, and voted directly after his claim. Now VP does the SAME THING and rather than doing the same thing and pushing his wagon, you're actually pulling out of it. So there is a contradiction in your actions.

Now you might ahve overriding reasons for that decision, and the reasons you gave were OK, but that doesn't mean that it's surprising at least that your response was different.

Also, as I said:

I'd point out though that your logic of 'at worst vanilla, at best scum' isn't really affected by the points you made to get off his wagon.

[VP Baltar]

A good part of why I have a townread on Xyl is that his behaviour is actually very similar to a game I just played with him as town here.

So most of your reason for thinking him town is because of a one game meta? Have you ever seen him as scum? How do you know his play isn't similar regardless of alignment?

[iamausername]

Woo, theory arguments.

How [is giving claim information useful]?

So if people are going to follow through with my lynch they at least know I'm not a power role.

But they'd find out you aren't a power role from the lynch scene anyway!

I really don't understand the argument 'don't claim unless prompted'. What would you have proposed should have happened, I kept quiet while people followed through with lynching me and then have me potentially come up a power role?

YES!

From your point of view, there's no potential for you to come up as a power role if you're not a power role. So there's no risk that a power role will be lynched by you not claiming. So there is no reason to claim.

How is that benefiting the town?

Because you'll find out who would be willing to hammer without waiting for a claim.

[elvis_knits]

Me unvoting VP had nothing to do with his claim.

Well - that's kind of the problem. Last time this happened, the vanilla claim directly affected your actions. This time it didn't. You argued FOR a BAB lynch, and voted directly after his claim. Now VP does the SAME THING and rather than doing the same thing and pushing his wagon, you're actually pulling out of it. So there is a contradiction in your actions.

The two situations are not remotely similar. The only thing they have in common is the vanilla claim. Everything else about the player and the wagons is different. The vanilla claim is not why I unvoted. If you choose to believe that is the reason why, realize that you are arbitrarily deciding to do so, ignoring all reason and explanation in favor of your own interpretation that is not supported by anything I said.

Also, as I said:

I'd point out though that your logic of 'at worst vanilla, at best scum' isn't really affected by the points you made to get off his wagon.

My logic for "at worst vanilla, at best scum" is used when I have unresolved reasons why I actually believe a person is or could be scum. I think VP is town for the reasons I keep mentioning. So the same logic does not apply in this situation. For VP, the logic would be "at worst vanilla, at best vanilla." Which is a lose-lose proposition.