/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[Xylthixlm]

Also, elvis is still town.

roflcopter, what do you think of Yos's scumlist?

[mith]

Vote Count:

8 to lynch.

ekiM: 5 (elvis_knits, Kmd4390, populartajo, VP Baltar, zu_Faul)
VP Baltar: 5 (ekiM, iamausername, Ojanen, SerialClergyman, Thesp)
Xylthixlm: 3 (charter, roflcopter, Yosarian2)
Yosarian2: 1 (Xylthixlm)

Not Voting: 1 (PookyTheMagicalBear)

[Yosarian2]

I do not like Yos piling on here. He admits himself that this is not a reliable scum tell but is using it as a point against VP. Contradiction much?

It's something town should never, ever do, and that scum sometimes might want to do, so it's a scummy act.

It's not a very reliable scumtell, since some townies still do claim vanilla even though they shouldn't, but it's a scumtell none the less. I'm usually fine with lynching anyone who claims vanilla unless I have a good reason to think they're town.

[VP Baltar]

BAB was scummy and had claimed vanilla. I decided I wasn't going to support any other lynch that day. How is making that decision then re-reading based upon it scummy?

Because you are not objectively looking to find who is scummy. How the hell can you determine when you are 13 pages behind if your initial read of BaB is accurate?

I would like those people on my wagon to tell me if you think the above behavior is more likely to come from town or scum.

re: I don't care what Yos, Xyl and ekiM believe the "town" play is in that situation, if I'm at L-1 and it looks like I am highly likely to head for a lynch I am going to claim whether someone asks me or not. It's best to have that information out there and the argument that it is scummy is flat out BS.

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP:

re: me claiming-......

[elvis_knits]

I do not like Yos piling on here. He admits himself that this is not a reliable scum tell but is using it as a point against VP. Contradiction much?

It's something town should never, ever do, and that scum sometimes might want to do, so it's a scummy act.

It's not a very reliable scumtell, since some townies still do claim vanilla even though they shouldn't, but it's a scumtell none the less. I'm usually fine with lynching anyone who claims vanilla unless I have a good reason to think they're town.

I agree that claiming vanilla is probably not optimal play. I don't often have to claim under pressure (as opposed to mass claim time). One time when I was vanilla was family guy mini and I claimed vanilla although I also had a character, so that's a bit more info that a straight vanilla claim. The other time I can recall was the last invitational where I was vanilla and refused to claim. BUT, I have seen vanilla claim vanilla. Like BaB. I'm think it's sort of a personal preference thing.

I don't think it's the agreed site philosophy that you shouldn't claim vanilla, and everyone should know that. I don't think that it's generally known that "town should never, ever do," so I don't think it should be held against someone.

I agree that a vanilla claim should not save a person. That is not why the VP wagon is bad. It's because it almost lynched him in one page, and because all the other top suspects are on the lynch!

[elvis_knits]

Also, Xyl, did you ever give reasons why you voted VP Baltar?

[Ojanen]

so many posts, so little time and so much to disagree on.

How are Yos and VP scumbuddies at all?

What speaks against it?

That's not how this works, have you been going to Xylschool of nonexistant scumhunting? (joke) But seriously, I don't see how they are connected at all, can you enlighten me?

Apparently I have. This is a totally strange question. 2 shady characters do not have to have a positive connection to be buddies. Counting out scumbuddy possibilities works only the other way, with canceling out options through attacks. Scum has a motive for not being connected in an unnatural way.

More Xyl votes. How can anyone think he looks town after him and Yos's back and forth? Xyl's Yos votes have been terrible, as have all of his votes. Xyl is scum! It is obvious.

It is not obvious to me at all.
Screw the wariness of my townread. I'm vehemently opposed of lynching Xyl at this point. I do have a towngut and Xyl's suspicions mirrored mine without me saying mine aloud. I'm not used to playing with the hugely experienced crowd but I'm gonna ignore some paranoia for now.
There are several people going "yeah, the VP case is pretty strong and I don't like his reaction so I might vote him...but wait, o'boy, I noticed Xyl is totally scummy."
I think the "votes are terrible" accusation is based on the premise of a more standard playstyle. My interpretation, as I said, was that it has seemed to me more like Xyl often bandwagons to scumhunt rather than scumhunts and then votes. Townies, look at the unvotes if you want to see part of what gives me a towngut.

I also fail to understand how the main case against me is that my scumhunting yesterday wasn't satisfactory while Xyl gets away with that garbage labeled as town.

Bleurgh. Things are more subtle. Even when not paying attention, Xyl was more involved.

I agree with almost everything ekiM is answering to VP. Except the vanilla claim stuff which I'm not sure about argumentwise.
I really wish people will actually read the parts ekiM and VP Baltar are arguing about, the references to Baltar's day 1 reason to vote ekiM the whole day etc.
Baltar, we were not in the middle of a heated debate when you suspected me of being ekiM's buddy. I voted you and posted a case of some sorts (first vote on you, also). You responded immediately by suspecting me of being scum.

elvis. I want you to stop ignoring the thing presented directly to you in at least 910, 792, 799 and say why you would think Baltar was anyhow townishly involved with the BAB vote.

I explained my problem with Xyl, Ojanen. It has nothing to do with OMGUS. In fact, I stated my problem with his votes, and then HE voted ME in response to my suspicion on him. His reaction to me attacking him was to vote me, and to then refuse to give any reasons at all for his vote. Was I supposed to back off because he was voting me?
Anyway, this is really a distraction. My problem with Xyl is a constant pattern of voting that seems completely devoid of any real scum hunting on his part, or any reasons of his own for any of his votes, and especially for the way he seems to not actually KNOW why he's voting anyone. Everything he's done today just looks like scummy opportunism

Did you read what I quoted?
You name Xyl neutral.
Xyl names you among the people he thinks are scum.
Then YOU suspected HIM in response to the scumlist.
Then he voted you.
Don't pretend part of your written concerns wasn't that the only proactive vote (except Pooky) was an OMGUS on you.
P.S. I know wat you say, I know, changing your mind is pro-town according to your school of thinking right?
I can still remark that your read changed from neutral/mixed to "Everything he's done today just looks like scummy opportunism" at the same time as he started expressing serious suspicion of you.

I want to lynch VP Baltar.
I'm wary of Yos, and actually tajo.
I don't understand charter at the moment.

I'm traveling to Italy tomorrow. I should be able to find an internet connection but I'm gonna be under high pressure so I might have to take some days.

V/LA until Saturday at the latest

.

[Yosarian2]

I think the "votes are terrible" accusation is based on the premise of a more standard playstyle.

"Votes are terrible"? Is that really what you think my case against Xyl is?

My interpretation, as I said, was that it has seemed to me more like Xyl often bandwagons to scumhunt rather than scumhunts and then votes.

That would be fine, so long as there was scumhunting in there somewhere. That is, bandwagoning and then using that to try to find scum is fine. Bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning, consistantly, without ever being able to give any reasons for it at all, is bad.

I explained my problem with Xyl, Ojanen. It has nothing to do with OMGUS. In fact, I stated my problem with his votes, and then HE voted ME in response to my suspicion on him. His reaction to me attacking him was to vote me, and to then refuse to give any reasons at all for his vote. Was I supposed to back off because he was voting me?
Anyway, this is really a distraction. My problem with Xyl is a constant pattern of voting that seems completely devoid of any real scum hunting on his part, or any reasons of his own for any of his votes, and especially for the way he seems to not actually KNOW why he's voting anyone. Everything he's done today just looks like scummy opportunism

Did you read what I quoted?
You name Xyl neutral.
Xyl names you among the people he thinks are scum.
Then YOU suspected HIM in response to the scumlist.
Then he voted you.

Actually, it's more like:

Xyl attacks me
Xyl attacks me
I put him in my "don't have a read on him yet" catagory
Xyl gives a vauge, iffy looking list of his suspects, which did happen to include me.
I re-read him, and figure out he's scum
I attack him
He votes me because I attacked him.

You are making it sound like my suspicion of him just because he was suspecting me, but that's pretty clearly not true. I had a problem with his vauge list in general, it seemed like fake scumhunting, and then I went back and re-read him in iso, and realized that all his scumhunting today looks fake. It's not really something you notice until you look specifically at the pattern of all of his votes today, but once you do, it couldn't be more obvious.

On the other hand, his vote on me pretty clearly was a direct response to my attack on him. I attack him, and he quotes it, says "Yup, Yos is scum" and votes me. Even when I explain why I'm attacking him and demonstrate I have a good reason for doing so, he dosn't seem to care and just keeps voting me.

Don't pretend part of your written concerns wasn't that the only proactive vote (except Pooky) was an OMGUS on you.

Um...I really made it clear that my suspicion on him was in response to a detailed read on him, and me noticing a pattern in all of his votes. I can't have made my reason for voting him any more clear; I actually quoted every single one of his day 2 votes in order to demonstrate the reason for my suspicion on him. And you're trying to brush it off as "OMGUS"?

P.S. I know wat you say, I know, changing your mind is pro-town according to your school of thinking right?
I can still remark that your read changed from neutral/mixed to "Everything he's done today just looks like scummy opportunism" at the same time as he started expressing serious suspicion of you.

That's simply not correct. He's been expression vauge suspicion of me, for vauge, unclear and sometimes illogical reasons, basically all game, while avoding any direct conflict or anything that would attract attention to himself. He continued to do so in that post. To say that that was the point where he "started expression serious suspicion of me" is just wrong, and not actually relevant to the case I'm making against him in any case.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

lawls

xyl so scum

vote xyl

[Xylthixlm]

Also, Xyl, did you ever give reasons why you voted VP Baltar?

Actually no, it appears I haven't. I did an iso read and decided he wasn't obviously town enough to save. I was also curious who would do the inevitable panicked unvote (it turned out to be elvis). Somewhere in there I reevaluated ekiM too and decided that Baltar was more likely to be scum than ekiM.

[Ojanen]

"Votes are terrible"? Is that really what you think my case against Xyl is?

It was more or less charters crystallisation of his iirc.
No time to actually respond, now I really go.
Maybe good that I'm away for a bit. What do I know in the end. Gah.

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl gives a vauge, iffy looking list of his suspects, which did happen to include me.

This?

Lessee. Scumteam is Yos, charter, VP Baltar, and... maybe tajo?

Anyone else think that was a "vague, iffy looking list"? Raise your hand.

[SerialClergyman]

What's the significance of the 'panicked unvote', Xyl?

[Xylthixlm]

What's the significance of the 'panicked unvote', Xyl?

Person who makes it is town.

I was kind of disappointed it was elvis, since I already thought she was town.

[Thesp]

not much time at the moment, i'm not happy to see that the serial wagon has completely evaporated.

unvote, vote: xyl

he should know better than to vote for yos again at this point

Howso?

(Looks like Ojanen beats me to this question.)

Populartajo, glad to hear your Grandpa is doing better. My prayers are with you and yours.

The walls of text are becoming problematic.

He put him at L-1 the second time around, when BAB had already been claimed for ages and people were asking for him to be hammered. BAB was dead meat. It's hardly putting yourself out there to make that vote. What I was referring to was him not commenting seriously on wagons whilst they were ongoing. The omission here is VP's, by making it sound like he put BAB at L-1 pre-claim. He was NOT being proactive wrt the BAB wagon. Putting BAB at L-1 right at the end of the day doesn't mean squat, and VP pretending it does is bad.

For an example, here's a wishy washy comment from VP about the BAB wagon earlier that I find troublesome

"Some of this BnB stuff is becoming a bit muddled for me as I'm going along here. This is the usual setback I find with larger games and lots of competent players, a million lines of questioning happening that lose focus. I can already tell this is going to be a long game.

...

Bridges is a reasonable enough wagon for D1, though I would hope we can put the brakes on a little bit until some of the more background players (ekiM, iamausername, SerialClergyman, etc) weigh in and answer some questions."

Quoted for highlighting and massive agreement.

Yos2 needs more votes. Come on people. Don't make me actually put together a case.

Surely the vig can take care of him, if he's not busy offing alexhans/Pooky. We can get VP Baltar now.

Out of the Yos and Xyl in the last pages, I find myself agreeing with Yos more (here come the buddying accusations).

That's funny, I'm feeling the opposite.

I want to lynch VP Baltar.
I'm wary of Yos, and actually tajo.
I don't understand charter at the moment.

I feel like in this game I have 3 day masons (you're one of them), where peoples' thoughts jive with my own. This is spot on and agrees with me entirely.

Still happy with a VP Baltar lynch.

[Xylthixlm]

Fine, I guess I've made my point

unvote, vote VP Baltar

Don't forget that Yos is scum

[Kmd4390]

Ironic in the sense I dont remember any game from you where you were ironic to make a point. Like the first batch of your post day 1.

I meant how was I being ironic?

I dont see how this is related to the meta you used to suspect Yos. Care to elaborate?

He isn't playing how he played in Medieval and the Newbie game in my sig. Or at least wasn't on Day 1.

If this VC was in order of votes, I'd be able to find some scum from it...

Gogogo.

Need it in order first..

-You must have thought about this in some detail, so you should be able to tell me which claims scum might make; and which ones don't merit an unvote.
-k.
-And that's been persistant, or piqued by something else recently?
-Why?

-Actually, I didn't.
----
-persistent.
-Mostly gut.

You have reminded me that KMD hasn't actually responded to my question though; KMD, you've explained why you unvoted BaB, but why were you voting him in the first place?

He was scummy and seemed like a good lynch at the time.

[charter]

Fine, I guess I've made my point

unvote, vote VP Baltar

Don't forget that Yos is scum

If this isn't a confession of Xyl being scum, I don't know what is. He just gives up on Yos (he hasn't made any point either, by the way) to hop back on VP.

VP is clearly town. I think I was wrong about ekiM before. Everyone I am suspicious of is voting for VP for terrible or nonexistent reasons and isn't even looking at ekiM. At all.

Regardless, the Xyl wagon is slowing, but surely, gathering votes. Only four more votes needed!

[Xylthixlm]

Charter, good luck with that... I think too many townies have gotten good gut reads on me, but maybe you can convince them they're all wrong?

[Xylthixlm]

Well, leaving out roflcopter, who despite his reputation as a gut player hasn't gotten any better at reading me

[SerialClergyman]

Person who makes it is town.

I was kind of disappointed it was elvis, since I already thought she was town.

I don't agree with this. Not just the point in general but also the specifics from elvis. Keep an open mind on her.

Aside from that, lets get this VP wagon done. I'm sure Yos2 will join due to his distaste at claiming vanilla.

[Xylthixlm]

I have a question for Yos: which of my town reads do you disagree with, and why?

[SerialClergyman]

To wit:

Why would a vanilla claim stop us from lynching bridges?

unvote; vote bridgesandbaloons

Hmmm one page bandwagon goes L-1? That was awesome.

unvote

[SerialClergyman]

In fact, while I'm rummaging around.. Replace BAB with VP and see if it's the same thought process

Claus, I'd like a scum list too but I'm not going to beg for it and I'm not going to wait 12 days for it. I also think there's no reason why BAB shouldn't be kept close to a lynch in meantime. A vanilla claim from a scummy person should cement their lynch, honestly. I mean, if you're not lynching a vanilla, who would you go through with the lynch on? Keep the claimed vanilla, kill the claimed doc? Because we think scum would fake a power role? That is backwards thinking.

This should be our thinking:
1)BAB is scummy
2)BAB claimed vanilla
3)BAB is either vanilla or scum.
4)If we lynch BAB, we either lynch scum or vanilla, therefore little damage to town, or huge advantage. As a bonus, no power roles have to claim today.

Elvis' philosophy seems to have changed dramatically on D2.