/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[Xylthixlm]

it feels like so far you're playing on autopilot more or less, that your posts don't really have any correlation with your alignment.

That sounds about right.

I have to get you out of your comfort zone somehow.

Can't help you there. Maybe you should wait until later in the game.

[mith]

Vote Count:

11 to lynch.

Xylthixlm: 4 (charter, ekiM, populartajo, SerialClergyman)
elvis_knits: 3 (BridgesAndBaloons, Kmd4390, zu_Faul)
ekiM: 2 (VP Baltar, Xylthixlm)
Kmd4390: 2 (elvis_knits, roflcopter)
Yosarian2: 2 (Claus, Shabba)
alexhans: 1 (iamausername)
BridgesAndBaloons: 1 (Thesp)
Claus: 1 (alexhans)
Ojanen: 1 (Herodotus)
Shabba: 1 (Yosarian2)

Not Voting: 2 (inHimshallibe, Ojanen)

[Claus]

Post 1 - General comments on posts which have picked my interest
Post 2 - My opinion on current wagons and new vote.

===
@Xyl, VP-Baltar

I like 115 from Xyl and 117 from VP. I also thought that 82 from Ekim a bit suspect. I have played with him as scum quite recently, and he was a timid scum. 82 fits the bill a little.

@VP- Baltar: What do you think of E_K and the E_K wagon?
@Ekim- So, do you still think one of the 5 you pointed is scum? who is more likely? Why are you not voting one of them? Opinion on current wagons?

===
@alexhans

Clearly I do. The guy I'm voting (...)

I see. I can't vote on the guy you are voting, however, it goes against my religion. Can you suggest someone else?

What happened to Yos in those games? (...) Don't you feel you can read him a bit better?

He got killed in the first game after I died (Dynamite Mafia), and survived to endgame in the second game (New Catania 2). Yeah, I think I can get a good read of Yos as scum after these experiences, so If I ever start to shout and point at him angrily jumping up and down, please listen to me

=======

@Thesp

Well, let's think - on a scale of 2 to 17, how crafty are you?

I'd say 5. I tend to be quite direct about my opinions, instead of going roundabout and/or playing wifom games. I would put a 2 or 3, but I like to look in unlikely places for scumtells when re-reading (indirect craftiness )

I would like to know a few things about you thesp:
1- did your crack team of investigators come to any conclusion about Yos?
2- Which of the answers to your questions would you say were signs of pro-town/anti-town alignment? Which were interesting in other ways?
3- I'm interested in your scumread of BaB, would you elaborate?
4- What do you think about E_K?

===
@mith

Could we get a "not voting" list from the next votecount on, please?

[Claus]

Post 2/2:


About E_K:
The 4th vote on Xyl in 81 was a bit opportunistic, but the overreaction, specially the OMGUSy defense, against Kmd's attacks puts Elvis in my Scum list. The "SLIP! SLIP!" is bull and malicious.

About Xyl/Kmd:
I don't really feel the Xyl wagon. 115 is a good one from him. The Kmd wagon is silly.

About BaB:
I'm not really seeing what is scummy about BaB, but I wouldn't mind having someone explain it to me. 85 was a bit townie, 100 was a bit too forceful, but E_K's defense was scummy. Being voted by Thesp, who I'm getting some scummy vibes from, makes him a bit pro-town.

Thesp:
I'm get a few scummy vibes from thesp - he's playing with his cards too close to his chest.

Ekim:
I found 82 to be too timid. Somewhat like active lurking. (posting just to avoid disappearing, without contributing)

Unvote, Vote Elvis_Knits

FoS: Ekim

mFos: Thesp

===
@IAUN - so you don't like the Xyl wagon. What about BaB, E_K and Kmd?

[Herodotus]

Elvis's case on KMD is reaching. He is definitely competent enough to be aware of whether he is suggesting a particular number of scum, so I'm pretty sure it's not a slip.
Elvis seems to want us to believe that she believes in it, but I'm not sure whether she does. Whether reaching for an early case is a valid scumtell, I don't know, but this is more suspicious than anything else so far.

unvote; vote: Elvis_knits

[charter]

Xyl, why did you answer Claus's question in post 66?

Then I realized that's pretty stupid thinking, and the Xyl wagon will continue without me,

unvote, vote BridgesAndBaloons

for post 102. That part there seems especially scummy to me.

[charter]

Herodotus, do you have anything else to add to the game at this point?

[charter]

Also

MOD, would it be possible in the votecounts to have the votes for each player in the order they were placed please?

[Herodotus]

Herodotus, do you have anything else to add to the game at this point?

I don't. Any comments from me right now beyond what I've said would be a distraction more than anything else. I could start calling some people probable-town, but don't see much point in that so far. I could make some other accusations, but I'd rather see more pages first.

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl, why did you answer Claus's question in post 66?

It seemed like a good opportunity to vote Yosarian2.

[inHimshallibe]

Thesp, if I lurk, kill me. Can I have the same call from you?

BGs

Yos
BnB

GGs

rofl
Xyl

BridgesandBalloons keeps getting mentioned. I'll take the good odds of good Townies and bussing scum.

vote: BridgesandBalloons

[alexhans]

What was the purpose of posting this sentence:

I have my own theories about what roles may be in this game but I've learned that setup speculation this early is pretty useless.

The purpose was to avoid the useless speculation from other players that has ALREADY started.
-----------------------------------------

Also, it does not make a lot of sense for Xyl and BNB to be buddies anyway since she started the wagon.

Shit, you're right. Scum can't start wagons on each other in the RVS. Damn.

That's right, because the first waggon of the game always ends with a lynch...
-----------------------------------------
@E_K: Max mafia team is 6 people. You forgot to count who receives the pm.

btw, have you ever played with KMD?
-----------------------------------------
I didn't like the "supposed slip" attack... I, as Yos, used to try and guess the number of scum until I realized it wasn't really that helpful at this point.

For our sake, we should not forget that there may be 6 mafia so it can't catch us off guard near lylo if that's the case.
-----------------------------------------

I see. I can't vote on the guy you are voting, however, it goes against my religion. Can you suggest someone else?

I understand and respect your religion. We'll see...

Yeah, I think I can get a good read of Yos as scum after these experiences, so If I ever start to shout and point at him angrily jumping up and down, please listen to me

Then it would be better for you to leave him alive and lynch some other player, wouldn't it? Unless you have a scum read... Have you?
------------------------------------------

Also

MOD, would it be possible in the votecounts to have the votes for each player in the order they were placed please?

hear hear.
------------------------------------------
@inHimshallibe: What's BG & GG?
------------------------------------------

[elvis_knits]

About E_K:
The 4th vote on Xyl in 81 was a bit opportunistic, but the overreaction, specially the OMGUSy defense, against Kmd's attacks puts Elvis in my Scum list. The "SLIP! SLIP!" is bull and malicious.

1) Why was my vote on Xyl opportunistic? Do you think his vote on Yos was good?

2) Where did I overreact and why is that a scum tell?

3) My definition of OMGUS is counterattacking/countervoting a person for NO OTHER REASON than they voted you. Obviously I have a reason for voting KMD. I didn't even immediately vote him, I questioned him about his "scum list" to try to find out where he was coming from, and if there was a logical explanation. He informed me there was 4 scum and a traitor in the game, a fact which the mod has not told us. At that point, I voted him.

4) Explain the "malicious" part. I can see how you would call it "bull" if you don't believe in slips -- I know there are some people that do not. I have run into this before in games and I know it doesn't make a player scum just because they don't count slips. But I don't know where you get "malicious" from.

5) Can we look at kmd's initial post?

Kmd4390, are you scum?

No.

On a related note, I would have wanted to place a wagon vote on someone, but had no interest in the options available.

Why not?

I am deeply concerned by the continued absence of inHimshallibe, Kmd4390, Ojanen, populartajo, and Shabba. I'd wager there's at least one scum amongst those five players.

I've been working most of the time that the game has been started. 11PM-6:30AM at one job, did more stuff for that job from 8:30AM-9:30AM and my other job from 10AM-3PM. I'm here now. Don't worry. I'm no flaker.

---------------

Vote Elvis_Knits

Not random. Buddies are Bridges, ekiM, and Xyl.

It's a lot of nothing until the bottom where he votes me and makes his scum list. Which I would be fine with except he says it's not random, doesn't give reasons for voting me or for the other three being partners, (plus the slip stuff which you may not see). But are we really in the business of letting players name the scum team without giving any reasons whatsoever? There's no indication he's joking there. He says it's "not random."

---

btw, have you ever played with KMD?

Yes I have. One that I remember we were scum buddies in Mirth's mini Congratulations You Are Mafia. I think he's good at scum. I think his talent is talking himself out of situations, he can be persuasive. BUT, I don't think he's above making mistakes. He's just really good at talking himself out of trouble. In the game I referenced, he made a mistake on the first page. He put a third vote on zazie and said "not a bandwagon vote." Which was him getting on a bandwagon but saying that wasn't his reason. Which shows he's aware what he's doing is scummy, but he's doing it anyway... "like don't attack me for this -- it's not scum motivated, I swear!" Yeah, and he was scum.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

[mith]

Mod Note:

Players are reminded of Rule 11.

Vote counts will continue to be sorted alphabetically. I do have my reasons. I'll add a Not Voting list, just an oversight.

[SerialClergyman]

Official weirdest moments of the game was posts 101 and 102 for me. And that includes the sock puppet ><

I don't know why KMD would put pressure to turn a HoS into a vote, and I especially don't know why BridgesandBalloons would listen to him and say something ridiculous like 'the Xyl wagon will continue without me'.

Definitely the most promising of the early wagons.

unvote Xyl, vote BridgesandBalloons

[roflcopter]

they're equally scum, so i'm gonna put my momentum where it counts

unvote, vote: bridges

elvis wagon is weaksauce. claus' attack against elvis seems primarily like a means to discredit wagons on either kmd or bnb, which is chainsawriffic.

[Yosarian2]

That's...actually a really good point. Post 102 is really, really odd.

I really don't understand your logic at all, B&B. How is it that you thought you should vote for your #2 suspect rather then your #1 suspect because it was early in the game?

[ekiM]

Um, the "1 in 5 players in a 20 player game is probably scum" thing was a joke. The relevant part of that post was the vote. Serious reaching going on here.

Elvis saying scum wouldn't start RVS bandwagons on one another is a bit silly. Describing it as "pushing for their buddies lynch" is sillier.

Kmd, why'd you name me as a buddy to Elvis then not mention me ever again?

VP Baltar, why'd you wait for Xyl to vote me before voting me? You'd already seen the post that offended you so.

Claus, what are you smoking? RVS bandwagon vote with joke attached = problematic?

Xyl seems to be not contributing whatsoever but posting frequently and people seem happy to let him. Is it a town tell then?

unvote; vote: BridgesandBalloons

Strange behavior.

[elvis_knits]

Mike, BAB pushing Xyl lynch was post 85, not merely that she made a RVS vote on him:

Ooo, my first time ever as the first bandwagon of the game (I think). I'm honored.

Don't try to laugh this off. Post 66 is genuinely scummy, and this is a legitimate wagon.

More XYL votes

please.

[ekiM]

Hmm, that's stronger than I remembered. Still not very likely to lead to a lynch though, right?

[populartajo]

Im busy at my office. Will post tonigt.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

C=

After reading the first post, I thought there were 4 mafia + (optional) traitor too. The fact that E_k didn't come to the same conclusion as me is weird.

What gave you that impression? Please be specific.

each mafia had a role pm like this (bolded numbers are my additions:

Mafia Godfather

Role Name:

Mafia Godfather

Group:

The Mafia Family is: XXXX

1

(Mafia Godfather), XXXX

2

(Mafia [?]), XXXX

3

(Mafia [?]), [XXXX

4

(Mafia [?])], [XXXX

5

(Mafia [?])]. Each Night, your group may attempt to murder one player - please specify who will be carrying out the kill attempt. The Mafia Family may communicate at Night by PM or Quicktopic: [Quicktopic Link].

Abilities:

In addition to your group's kill, you are [Immune to Nightkills and/or Immune to Investigations].

Win Condition:

You win when all non-Mafia players are dead, and at least one member of your Family is alive (or when nothing can prevent this).

Notice that I MISCOUNTED the number of mafia, so really there should be 5. Except, now I'm thinking that the last two are in brackets, so maybe they are optional? Any one familiar with one of Mith's games to see if that's the case.

[Xylthixlm]

Optional elements will be in brackets.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

^Thanks.

That's...actually a really good point. Post 102 is really, really odd.

I really don't understand your logic at all, B&B. How is it that you thought you should vote for your #2 suspect rather then your #1 suspect because it was early in the game?

Yeah I know, bad logic, right? That's why I decided to vote for E_k instead, because she's my number 1 logic. Although, I don't like* Xyl because of his vote on Yosarian. Don't like the reasoning of "last to confirm."


*Future reference, when I say "don't like" I mean "seems scummy/odd" when I say "like" it means "seems pro-town." So, even if I say "I don't like you," I probably still like you.

[Kmd4390]

It was my assumption.

This does not sound like it was an assumption:

There are exactly four scum in this game? ORLY?

4 scum plus a traitor.

Why doesn't it sound like an assumption? Would scum really say "yeah, I know the number of scum. It's right here in my Role PM." Nah. (Yes, I'm using WIFOM and to defend myself no less. Deal with it.)

I asked you if there were EXACTLY four scum in the game. You did not say, "uh, that's what I assumed." You said "4 scum plus a traitor." That is not an assumption. You told me it was fact.

Quote where I told you it was a fact. I didn't I answered your question based on the assumption I made.

^^ that would suggest 5 mafia if you were going to assume the sample PMs are literal. If you were assuming you should assume 5, but I think we shouldn't assume anything.

Hey, I said 4 plus a traitor. That's 5. Guess I was right.

So you definitively stating four is evidence of extra info. Info only scum would have.

THIS IS A SLIP, PPL.

unvote, vote kmd

Wow. Too funny.

Also, it does not make a lot of sense for Xyl and BNB to be buddies anyway since she started the wagon.

Shit, you're right. Scum can't start wagons on each other in the RVS. Damn.

That's right, because the first waggon of the game always ends with a lynch...

I was using sarcasm to show how bad EK's statement was.

he says it's not random, doesn't give reasons for voting me or for the other three being partners, (plus the slip stuff which you may not see). But are we really in the business of letting players name the scum team without giving any reasons whatsoever? There's no indication he's joking there. He says it's "not random."

Yeah, it wasn't random. It was gut. Those were the 4 players who stood out as scum.

Yes I have. One that I remember we were scum buddies in Mirth's mini Congratulations You Are Mafia. I think he's good at scum. I think his talent is talking himself out of situations, he can be persuasive. BUT, I don't think he's above making mistakes. He's just really good at talking himself out of trouble. In the game I referenced, he made a mistake on the first page. He put a third vote on zazie and said "not a bandwagon vote." Which was him getting on a bandwagon but saying that wasn't his reason. Which shows he's aware what he's doing is scummy, but he's doing it anyway... "like don't attack me for this -- it's not scum motivated, I swear!" Yeah, and he was scum.

Actually, my response to that was genuine. I had voted Zazie (this was in the RVS) because, well, it was Zazie. I pointed out that this was my reasoning because it was. I specifically mentioned that it wasn't just a bandwagon vote because I wanted to specify that it was for the purpose of voting Zazie, not for the purpose of bandwagoning. So that action really wasn't scum motivated even if I did happen to be scum. Also, what you call my best talent is actually the weakness I have been trying to fix since I first started playing mafia. I don't respond well to pressure at all regardless of alignment. I actually think my best talent as scum is looking town and getting the lynch I want. Too bad I couldn't get Isacc lynched in that game though.

Kmd, why'd you name me as a buddy to Elvis then not mention me ever again?

All of my posts after that were to respond to people. Nobody said anything about you.

Optional elements will be in brackets.

So we don't know the number of scum. Well, town doesn't. I obviously am scum who knows we have 5. Really though, I'd say 4 or 5. Still thinking 4 plus a traitor.