Newbie 1725: Innocents, Inc. [Game Over!]

[Harkonnen97]

VOTE: BlankFace
His scumpartner is IV, who is secretly telling him everyone's roles via PM.

I'm a bit frustrated with how I played my last game, so I plan to win this one no matter what.

[Harkonnen97]

I was a Vanilla Townie and I lost the game for town because of my stupidity. Hammered someone before two people even gave their opinions, and on the next day when it was MyLo I instantly threw down a vote on someone (who ended up being town), without waiting for anyone.

[Harkonnen97]

Why Creature? Because he followed my vote on Blank, or for a different reason?

[Harkonnen97]

The game has only been up for 10 hours. Timezones are a thing.

What's your obsession with Thor? All of your posts mention him.

[Harkonnen97]

@Blank I've played 3 games outside MS, and I was much much worse than in Newbie 1717. This is my second MS game and I'm really enjoying it so far. People here are unbelievably kinder and more polite than on the other forum lol. Seeing someone apologize if he felt that he was rude in a FM game really caught me off-guard.

@MissTerry Do you think what I did was scummy? Because if you do, you should be suspecting not only me, but also Creature, lucca, Loopdan and Draynth. (leaving Blank out because I don't consider his vote a RVS one, but a meaningful one)

Out of all these people, what made you pick me?

Or is it that you don't think I'm particularly scummy, but instead you just don't like people accusing others for no reason?

[Harkonnen97]

Also, I have this gut feeling that Creature is trying to distance from his scumbuddy Thor.

[Harkonnen97]

Loopdan, do you have experience with Mafia outside this forum? You don't like a newbie to me at all.

[Harkonnen97]

you don't look*

[Harkonnen97]

Why Creature? Because he followed my vote on Blank, or for a different reason?

Because of this: "I would vote the IC, but I am afraid that'll make him be inactive, so I'll refrain from voting the IC and vote this ScumFace.". No need for such a deep explanation for the second post of the game. If he wants to vote Thor, he needs to just vote him. It's a RVS.

Also, #24 is very strange for this part of the game, but, anyway...

That's exactly the reason behind #24. I feel like Creature is trying to distance himself from Thor, while masking it behind the RVS vote for Blank.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Thor665

I think that quote alot of time has passed, and Thor's lack of presence is starting to make me feel uncomfortable. This vote is to encourage him to do his IC stuff when he comes. (If you are busy because of RL - sorry)

[Harkonnen97]

Loop and Creature, I don't really understand you ;-;

[Harkonnen97]

Hark, outside of Thor, who is the most scummy player for you now?

Slightly suspecting Thor and Creature for scum buddies. Don't have any other scumreads yet.

[Harkonnen97]

I wrote #21 because I felt like MissTerry's vote was serious.

[Harkonnen97]

And #15 was because lucca just threw the vote without saying anything. I wanted to make him say something.

[Harkonnen97]

I'm not talking about your meta. I don't like meta, it can easily be manipulated. I was talking about your votes on me. I don't understand why you're scumreading me

[Harkonnen97]

#54 was because I didn't understand what's wrong with my vote and explanation

[Harkonnen97]

So, do you really disagree with my reasoning for the Thor vote?

[Harkonnen97]

Welcome Penguin

I'm not posting because I'm waiting for the inactives to join us.

[Harkonnen97]

Creature, did you know that Thor was deliberately being inactive when you made your first post about him being inactive?

[Harkonnen97]

I opened Thor's profile and he really is being active in another game. Even if I'm wrong about him being scumpartners with Creature, Thor is scummy as fuck right now.

[Harkonnen97]

MissTerry, if your vote on me is no longer random, could you please give your reasoning behind it?

[Harkonnen97]

Also, since Creature is keep pushing on Thor, instead of backing out (like I think he would if they were scum partners) I no longer think it's Thor/Creature.

[Harkonnen97]

Creature, do you think Loopdan is scummier than Thor?

[Harkonnen97]

@lucca Sorry, I don't understand? I'm not voting on anyone active because I'm not scumreading anyone who is active. I need to hear more from MissTerry, Draynth, Penguin and Thor.

Right now I'm leaning town on Loopdan, scum on Thor, and null on everyone else.

[Harkonnen97]

Creature would be a town read for me too, if he didn't change his vote from Loopdan to Thor so quickly after getting called out for distancing from his potential scumpartner Thor.

[Harkonnen97]

Playing on mobile and my battery is about to die. Will recheck when I get back home

[Harkonnen97]

I unvoted Loopdan actually.

My bad, I mixed up the chronology.

What do you think about Draynth?

Draynth is a null read for me right now. He has only talked about your obsession with Thor so far. Not finding anything alignment-indicative in his posts. Also, I think he hasn't fully caught up yet?

Not fan of Draynth's appearance, it looks like he hasn't paid attention to my reasonings and that makes his post look nitpicky.

Draynth is quite of a town read for now.

Can you please tell what exactly made you change your opinion of him?

@lucca Do you think it's a good idea to vote for someone when you are pressuring him, or otherwise it wouldn't hold alot of value?

[Harkonnen97]

So, you are talking about his #102 and #105? Then I take it that you still don't agree that your tunneling on Thor looked a bit weird and premature? (also, can someone please tell me how to link posts?)

[Harkonnen97]

I'm not saying it is. But you can't deny it was weird.

[Harkonnen97]

Draynth.

[Harkonnen97]

@IV Thor should be getting prodded.

[Harkonnen97]

Thanks.

If Thor does end up getting replaced I will drop my suspicioun on the slot for the time being. One thing is lurking, another thing is not playing at all.

[Harkonnen97]

Not posting anything as an IC in a Newbie game seems weird to me, both from a town and scum point of view.

[Harkonnen97]

*cough*Newbie 1715*cough*

I skimmed over it, and it seems like the inactive IC was lynched Day 1 and he flipped town. Sorry, but I don't understand why are you bringing this up?

[Harkonnen97]

Loop and Creature, I don't really understand you ;-;

I'm easy to figure out. When I'm town, I get very involved and scum-hunt while somehow managing to look slightly scummy. When I'm scum... I don't know, because I've never been scum.

This is the post that bothers me, a direct claim of not mafia. I don't see the purpose of this kind of a post from town.

I don't see him saying "hey guise, i'm not mafia, townread me plz!!!!!!"
All I see is him sharing his own meta to us (which I respectfully throw out the window, because meta is stupid.)

Really don't understand why you and Penguin are scumreading #64.

[Harkonnen97]

Welcome :^)

[Harkonnen97]

Why are you voting for Loopdan if you believe he is townish?

Also, that's quite a few votes on him already. I think he's at L-2?

[Harkonnen97]

Nvm, I think he's at L-3.

MissTerry, please respond to this:

MissTerry, if your vote on me is no longer random, could you please give your reasoning behind it?

[Harkonnen97]

When Thor (or whoever fills his slot) finally shows up he needs to give his read on Creature. I will not move my vote until this happens.

Currently townish, but I'd like to see him field my questions to him.

My bad. I thought that you were talking about Loopdan's post here, not Creature.

[Harkonnen97]

FoS

everyone on the Loopdan wagon. (FoS stands for Finger of Suspicioun. It basically means http://goo.gl/mQgTka)

By saying that he's never played scum he is saying that he is not scum and therefore is town, not a wise claim to make in my opinion if you want to stay alive and help the town.

After the beginning he stopped posting and is now mainly answering and asking questions. I mainly suspect him as scum because of his claim that he wasn't.

MissTerry have you ever been scum? Also, do you claim that you're town?

Because following your logic, if you claim that you're town and you never played scum before, you are basically claiming scum. Respond to this please.

Loopdan is a newbie

. Sure, his 52 isn't the most pressuring post I've seen. So and what? You are treating him like an IC, and nitpicking at him for everything.

He is my biggest town read atm. His

intention

to pressure me is town. It did NOT look like he was just doing it to make it seem like he is putting pressure. Why? Because he didn't make it obvious at all. Calling my post horrible implies that he outright rejects interacting with me, and basically calls me a newb. This DOES apply pressure, since it doesn't let me defend myself.

3 people are on Loopdan's wagon, so at least one of them is town. I believe that to be MissTerry. She is giving me way more newbtown vibes than newbscum.

Not liking Penguin at all right now. He is suspecting Blank and Draynth for focusing on the Creature/Thor conflict. And yet Penguin himself isn't even focusing on anything. He has almost zero to no content. (Though since he is a first-timer, which could be an explanation. Not sure if newbtown or newbscum though. Also don't take it personally, Penguin )

Not liking Thor either. His has been blindly tunneling on Loopdan. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I never saw him encouraging us newbies to post more, to give our scumreads etc. etc. As an IC, he should know better. (This isn't a jab at his competence as an IC. I believe that he is doing it because he's scum, and he isn't pushing the discussion in the right direction)

My feel for Thor right now is that he is defending himself very well, that he is applying alot of pressure on Loopdan, and that he gives alot of town vibes. But given that he is an IC, the ability to do these things is a given. I will resist the urge to trust my gut and townread him.

@Hark - if I'm scum because my scumbuddy is distancing from me, why aren't you voting my scumbuddy? For me to be scum doesn't it require him to be scum? So, basically you're voting the less likely of the two of us to be scum...?

Initially, I did indeed suspect that it's you/Creature. I put my vote on you instead of Creature, because I wanted to reaction test him. This was my line of thought:
-Creature is very early and prematurely outright stating that you will be inactive
-You actually did end up inactive
From here, I concluded that this was either pre-planned, or you just told him that you won't be able to be very active, so he did all that tunneling for town cred, and when you return and do your IC magic you can remove all the suspicioun from you.
I put my vote on you because I wanted him to get scared that he might actually get his scum partner lynched Day 1.
But his voting, scumhunting and the general feel of his posts don't look like he really did care that much about your slot.

Town: Loopdan
Lean Town: Creature, MissTerry
Null: Draynth, lucca, BlankFace
Lean Scum: Penguin
Scum: Thor

If I missed any questions adressed at me, I apologize. Please repeat them.

[Harkonnen97]

Draynth's and Blank's inputs will be very helpful right now.

[Harkonnen97]

Also I messed up the link to the post. Hopefully it works this time

52

[Harkonnen97]

Responses in orange

Loopdan is a newbie

. Sure, his 52 isn't the most pressuring post I've seen. So and what? You are treating him like an IC, and nitpicking at him for everything.

Every case out there at the moment is a nitpick or a misrep.
What prevents Loop from being the target of nitpicking but not, say, Penguin - who you are nitpicking at?

Loopdan is being scumread over 3 posts. I am scumreading Penguin over his entire play.

He is my biggest town read atm. His

intention

to pressure me is town.

If pressure is town, isn't the Loop wagon pro-town?

I didn't mean that I believe pressure=town. That was a reply to the people who were claiming Loopdan's pressure post was fake.

Not liking Penguin at all right now. He is suspecting Blank and Draynth for focusing on the Creature/Thor conflict. And yet Penguin himself isn't even focusing on anything. He has almost zero to no content. (Though since he is a first-timer, which could be an explanation. Not sure if newbtown or newbscum though. Also don't take it personally, Penguin )

This is an odd case, first off you're shooting it in its own foot - second, you're saying he finds something suspicious (the focus on the Creature/Thor conflict) and then pointing out that *he isn't focusing on anything!*.
Well...if he finds focus scummy...isn't this evidence that he is town, or at least being honest in his thoughts?
That's like saying someone finds the murder of Major Jackson scummy, and then pointing out that they're not murdering anyone.
That...makes sense, doesn't it?

Let me rephrase that. Penguin is suspecting Blank and Draynth for focusing solely on Thor/Creature, and not talking about anything else. However, Penguin himself isn't doing anything either. If he thinks that lack of presence is scummy, why is he doing it himself?

Not liking Thor either. His has been blindly tunneling on Loopdan.

I am not tunneling in any way at all, unless your definition of it is very strange.

You are right, you're not really tunneling.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I never saw him encouraging us newbies to post more, to give our scumreads etc. etc. As an IC, he should know better. (This isn't a jab at his competence as an IC. I believe that he is doing it because he's scum, and he isn't pushing the discussion in the right direction)

I know that isn't a job competence issue because it's not part of the job of an IC.
That is one of those magical presumed jobs, where people seem to expect me to be a cheerleader.
That is not my job.
Never has been.
Hopefully never will be.

I never said it was a job. Did you misread jab?

My feel for Thor right now is that he is defending himself very well, that he is applying alot of pressure on Loopdan, and that he gives alot of town vibes. But given that he is an IC, the ability to do these things is a given. I will resist the urge to trust my gut and townread him.

So, basically, I'm pointing out that I haven't done anything scummy while scumhunting.
But I'm supah experienced!
Therefore I'm a top scumread.

This was a speculation, not a read.

Initially, I did indeed suspect that it's you/Creature. I put my vote on you instead of Creature, because I wanted to reaction test him. This was my line of thought:

Yes, and then you concluded he was more likely town.
Yet you kept voting me - who you had decided was scum because of Creature.
That doesn't seem to make any sense.

Initially I thought you were scum because of Creature. Now, I think you are scum without Creature.

[Harkonnen97]

VOTE: PenguinPower

Penguin, spill the beans.

[Harkonnen97]

Loopdan is being scumread over 3 posts. I am scumreading Penguin over his entire play.

I don't see how that matters even if I did agree with it.
As my case has been described (and Loop agreed with my value call) it encapsulates his entire play.
But even if it was only about one post - that wouldn't inherently make it better or worse.

I didn't mean that I believe pressure=town. That was a reply to the people who were claiming Loopdan's pressure post was fake.

Yeah, but you indicated that the pressure came from a town place.
Why does the Loop pressure not come from a town place? i.e. why do you find the two types of pressure different?
If an empty vote on you is townish, why are cases offered on Loop scummy?

Because he was doing it to reaction test me. It was part of his RVS. People who are voting for Loop right now want to lynch him, not test him. It's very different. At least that's how I see it.

Let me rephrase that. Penguin is suspecting Blank and Draynth for focusing solely on Thor/Creature, and not talking about anything else. However, Penguin himself isn't doing anything either. If he thinks that lack of presence is scummy, why is he doing it himself?

I would argue that is a bit of a misrep. First off, his strongest scumread is not Dan or Blank, but rather someone who has done more than either of them (or both combined) so it's a bit false to suggest that's a primary scumtell he is operating with.
Secondly - Penguin has expressed his issues with the two of them differently, so it's unfair to suggest it's for a singular reason.
Thirdly - I would happily be willing to argue he has done more than either of those two slots, so even if you think lack of activity is scummy, it's quite fair for Penguin to suggest those two slots are underperforming because they basically are the least performing slots in the game. Now, maybe Penguin qualifies as third, I might give you that, but it doesn't suggest any hypocrisy on his part.

Am I missing something here?

I don't entirely agree. Blank and Draynth have been inactive, but that could be explained with non-game-related reasons (for example, just like

your

inactivity)

Penguin is here, and I believe that he is lurking on purpose. I think the term is called bettlejuice? He was quiet, but now that he is mentioned, he suddenly gets more active, and provides a read list and all that good stuff. That he could have done without being prompted to.

You are right, you're not really tunneling.

I know - what made you think I was blind tunneling? There is zero support for that statement.
Felt like an empty attack made to just try to make me look bad/justify me as a scum read voting Loop.

I never said it was a job. Did you misread jab?

If it's not my job, then why are you complaining that I'm not doing it?
If you think it should be done - why aren't you doing it?
I don't understand your issue now.

I don't have an issue. Didn't mean to sound rude ;-;

This was a speculation, not a read.

My bad, I tend to think speculations about alignment are the same as reads (which, to my mind, are speculations about alignment).
So what is your read on me and Penguin? I thought you FoSed us, isn't that a clarification of a read?

Yep, I FoSed you, and I explained why I'm scumreading you both. That thing I wrote in my earlier post was just my thoughts about you. Like ... I don't know how to say it. Just wanted to make sure I was being understood.

Initially I thought you were scum because of Creature. Now, I think you are scum without Creature.

So, if your speculation was not a read - why is your read on me scum?

I believe you are scum because you're pushing for the lynch of someone who I believe is obvtown, and you're strongarming the rest of us into following you.

[Harkonnen97]

@Hark: Why is LoopDan your strongest town read?

Because I don't find anything scummy in his posts and the wagon against him makes no sense.
(about your inactivity - my apologies if I sounded rude Penguin)

[Harkonnen97]

I wasn't talking about your first readlist. But you can't deny that you gave your second readlist in response to me mentioning you.

[Harkonnen97]

Because he was doing it to reaction test me. It was part of his RVS. People who are voting for Loop right now want to lynch him, not test him. It's very different. At least that's how I see it.

Wouldn't town have motivation to lynch people they thought were scum?
That's the way town wins the game.

I don't see your point.

I don't entirely agree. Blank and Draynth have been inactive, but that could be explained with non-game-related reasons (for example, just like

your

inactivity)

Penguin is here, and I believe that he is lurking on purpose. I think the term is called bettlejuice? He was quiet, but now that he is mentioned, he suddenly gets more active, and provides a read list and all that good stuff. That he could have done without being prompted to.[/color]
Penguin has been in the game since Sunday evening and has posted multiple times on both Monday and Tuesday - how in the world do you call that lurking? He has posted at least once every game day since he started posting, and multiple times on all but the very first day. I would not even think to call that lurking - why do you call that lurking?

I call it lurking because he has shown that he

does

care about the game and he is reading, but recently he responded when his position was being threatened and claimed it was a coincidence, that he was going to make a contributing post anyway. It just doesn't look right to me.

You are right, you're not really tunneling.

I know - what made you think I was blind tunneling? There is zero support for that statement.
Felt like an empty attack made to just try to make me look bad/justify me as a scum read voting Loop.

Why no response to this?

Because I felt that the question has no value."what made you think I was blind tunneling?".
Answer: I don't know. That's how it looked to me. I was wrong.

I don't have an issue. Didn't mean to sound rude ;-;

If there is no issue with how I am ICing - why did you bring up the thought that I should be encouraging people more?

I don't have an issue because you aren't obliged to encourage people more, I just feel like you should be doing it.

I believe you are scum because you're pushing for the lynch of someone who I believe is obvtown, and you're strongarming the rest of us into following you.

Name one person I am strongarming - I'll wait.

I'm not sure if Penguin and MissTerry voted for Loop before or after you showed up. But you are using your IC magic and experience to point out every little detail in him that you find scummy. And yet, you refuse to look from the viewpoint of town!Loopdan.

Loop is not obv. town, three people are voting him which means 1-3 town think he looks scummy.
Loop agreed with me when I told him why I thought he looked like scum. Meaning he also doesn't think he looks obv. town.
Why should we think he looks obv. town?

I don't really understand you here. Are you asking me why I am townreading him? I've already said why.

[Harkonnen97]

@MissTerry, Thor and Penguin

If you believe that Loop is scum, who do you think is most likely his scum partner and why?

@Creature What's your opinion on the Loop wagon?

[Harkonnen97]

Hmmm. My bad.

I'm going to bed. I need to rethink all of this carefully.

[Harkonnen97]

I don't see your point.

You're saying the people voting Loop want to lynch him, not test him - I'm questioning why that would be an attitude unique to scum, as I believe town also vote people to lynch them, not to test them.

You are making this overly complicated. I'm not even sure what was the start of this topic. I think you said "If you think that Loop's pressure on you was town, why isn't our wagon on him town?" ?
Well, while you did give your reasoning, I don't like MissTerry's and Penguin's reasonings. They don't put pressure. So what's left for Loopdan is to defend himself only against you. And trying to have a verbal fight with you is a fucking endless torture. You just keep asking questions after questions. While some of them are good and I can see town motivation, some of them are also just basic and pointless things, like ... don't know how to say it.

I call it lurking because he has shown that he

does

care about the game and he is reading, but recently he responded when his position was being threatened and claimed it was a coincidence, that he was going to make a contributing post anyway. It just doesn't look right to me.

How does it not look right? He posts semi-regular, it seems perfectly possible that your comment was closely timed with his arrival in thread.
Why do you think it isn't?
I see no evidence to support that conclusion. What am I missing?
If he hadn't been posting for 24 hours and then your comment had him answering it within five minutes, yeah, I'd see your point. But he posted throughout the day yesterday, and appears to be doing the same today, no?

No. I disagree. He is always focused on things that concern him. Actually, I realized that he just lied.

He claimed that his second readlist was going to be posted anyway, and it just so happened that I accused him 5 minutes earlier. This is not true.

Not liking Penguin at all right now. He is suspecting Blank and Draynth for focusing on the Creature/Thor conflict. And yet Penguin himself isn't even focusing on anything. He has almost zero to no content. (Though since he is a first-timer, which could be an explanation. Not sure if newbtown or newbscum though. Also don't take it personally, Penguin )

Not sure why you are asserting I have zero content. I'm pretty sure that since I started in the game 2 days ago I provided my readlist and rationale, and prodded responses made by LoopDan. My read on him has not changed. My read on you may since you asserted that LoopDan is a storng townread for you simply because he is a newbie and his statements must have been townie because he is new. Almost circular logic there.

Let me rephrase that. Penguin is suspecting Blank and Draynth for focusing solely on Thor/Creature, and not talking about anything else. However, Penguin himself isn't doing anything either. If he thinks that lack of presence is scummy, why is he doing it himself?

Sorry I'm not making any WoT. Not my playstyle. I suspect Blank and Draynth for focusing solely on Thor/Creature debate AND not posting any other content. Again, you state that I'm not doing anything, but that's patently false. I've already said that we need to move on from Thor's activity level and start focusing on other things, but until Blank, Draynth, Luca start weighing in, I don't have a whole lot to analyze. That's almost 50% of the players.

Penguin, spill the beans.

Spill what beans?



{}
{Lucca, Creature, Thor, MissTerry}
{Hark}
{BlankFace, Draynth}
{LoopDan}

Take a look at this.

New readlist:

His whole #218 post is defending himself against my accusations, and ends it with a NEW READLIST. In which he puts me from "Lean Town" to "Null", in retaliation to me scumreading him. Why would he put me at null anyway? Isn't he scumreading me? The only people he is scumreading in that post are the person who was the biggest wagon on him, and who has the IC verbally pounding him, and the 2 inactives.

The point is, he doesn't admit that his new readlist is in response to my accusation.

Because I felt that the question has no value."what made you think I was blind tunneling?".
Answer: I don't know. That's how it looked to me. I was wrong.

That sounds like the answer of a scum player who is making stuff up.
Do you honestly have no idea why you thought I was tunneling?
How many of your reads do you have no idea why you said them?
Should we trust anything you say in any way at all?

This is my 5th Forum Mafia game. I've never seen someone make such walls and ask so much questions like you did before. I thought that it was something serious. Now I just realize it's your playstyle.

I don't have an issue because you aren't obliged to encourage people more, I just feel like you should be doing it.

I feel like everyone should constantly sheep me, sadly we don't always get what we want.

I'm not sure if Penguin and MissTerry voted for Loop before or after you showed up. But you are using your IC magic and experience to point out every little detail in him that you find scummy. And yet, you refuse to look from the viewpoint of town!Loopdan.

Penguin voted after, I think Miss Terry voted before, unvoted, and then later re-voted.
I can't help it if other people decide to sheep me due to perceived experience - there is nothing I have said suggesting they should or shouldn't, and it is silly to hold me accountable for how other people choose to react to me.
I see no evidence to support your complaint about Loop - I *started* the game town reading him.
Then he started to act like scum.
I also appear to still be talking to him - so I'm giving him a chance to change my mind (or at least faking that I am, I suppose).
What else do you want?

As far as I can tell the complaint is that I'm not town reading him.
Yeah, I'm not. i was, now I'm not - that has no validity to show that I decided for an arbitrary reason to refuse to think of him as town. In fact, it tends to suggest the opposite.

I don't really understand you here. Are you asking me why I am townreading him? I've already said why.

You're calling him obv. town - obv. town is a lot stronger than saying you town read him.
If you simply town read him because you think the wagon on him makes no sense (to which Loop himself would disagree with you on - so I think you're clearly wrong on this point) and your other reason is "nothing he has done is scummy!" to which I would also disagree. He has ducked questions, lazy scumhunted, and not actually done much to look pro-town, all of which is perfectly functional scum play.
Considering you appear to make up reads out of wholecloth, I am left kinda iffy on accepting a read so thinly explained that clearly is ignoring things in the thread.

So he's not obv. town, and your read on him appears pretty weak to my mind - so I see no reason why it should come as a surprise that people disagree with that read. It's not strange at all - he's a scummy slot.

[Harkonnen97]

Blank, can you please share all of the reasons that you thought that it would be a good idea to lurk if you are town?

[Harkonnen97]

Also sorry for that long ass wall. I should probably start dissecting Thor's walls when I answer then.

[Harkonnen97]

MissTerry, which particular interaction is confusing you? Or is it all of them?

[Harkonnen97]

I don't like Blank's reasoning for lurking. But leaning town.

[Harkonnen97]

Also, reading through Blanks' reads made me realize that I forgot Penguin replaced in, even though I welcomed him. I

was

in fact going through his ISO when I claimed that he was inactive, and judged him because there wasn't that many posts.

[Harkonnen97]

Also, reading through Blanks' reads made me realize that I forgot Penguin replaced in, even though I welcomed him. I

was

in fact going through his ISO when I claimed that he was inactive, and judged him because there wasn't that many posts.

You forgot even though I stated that in direct response to your post 221 in my post 223?

You didn't say that you replaced in in 223. You gave explanations about your posts. I dismissed them, because I thought that you were here from the start.

[Harkonnen97]

also "blatant misrepresentation" is a bit of an exaggeration.

[Harkonnen97]

BlankFace: moves to Leantown. I like his reads, and while I do not necessarily understand his logic behind lurking, at least he offers one that makes some sense to me.

Can you explain this please? You don't understand Blank's logic, but at the same time it makes sense to you?
Or did you mean that his reads make sense to you?

[Harkonnen97]

Penguin is here, and I believe that he is lurking on purpose. I think the term is called bettlejuice? He was quiet, but now that he is mentioned, he suddenly gets more active, and provides a read list and all that good stuff. That he could have done without being prompted to.

Oh please.

If anyone else but Penguin thought that I was referring to Penguin's FIRST readlist in this quote, and not his SECOND, please speak up.

[Harkonnen97]

Also, aren't "logic behind the play" and "intent" the exact same thing?

[Harkonnen97]

But if you don't understand his reasoning,

why

do you believe that his intent is town-motivated?

Scum intent is perfectly valid behind lurking.

My reasoning for not believing that Blank's intent was scummy is because his reads make a lot of sense to me.

Do you believe that his intent is towny because you agree with his reads?

[Harkonnen97]

Welcome Shadow.

Why are you putting the person with the biggest wagon on L-1 before you even caught up?

[Harkonnen97]

I re-read Penguin's ISO, and checked the timings of his posts, and it's making me reconsider a bit. Moving him up a notch for now.

Town - Loopdan
Lean Town - MissTerry, BlankFace, Creature
Null - Lucca, Penguin
Lean Scum - Shadow
Scum - Thor

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Shadow_step

[Harkonnen97]

Loop, if you're town, please start hunting. You started off strong, but you're became really passive as of late.

[Harkonnen97]

Do you have reads?

[Harkonnen97]

Does anyone?

Creature.

Also sorry for that long Smurf wall. I should probably start dissecting Thor's walls when I answer then.

Yeah, I don't know about anyone else, but the orange text answers in my quotes when I'm quoting orange text answers takes a little while to sort out.

/modkills Thor

for quote editing

If anyone hammers Loopdan without first saying "I intend to hammer Loopdan" will be considered to be claiming scum and will be lynched Day 2.
Also, even if he does say that he has intent, he should wait for Loopdan to claim his role, in case he claims a PR (PR stands for Power Role, which means a town role that isn't Vanilla Townie; basically all town roles with abilities).

[Harkonnen97]

Also, for convenience sake, here are Loopdan's reads:

Town - Harkonnen97
Lean Town - BlankFace, Creature
Null - Penguin, MissTerry
Lean Scum - Lucca, Thor
Scum - Shadow

[Harkonnen97]

I am scumreading Thor because I feel like he has been giving too much attention to Loopdan, doesn't interact with others that much, firmly believes that Loop is scum and refuses to consider that he could be wrong. Also he is incredibly nitpicky. The scummy things that Loop has done could be things that a newb town would make, but he refuses to think that way even for a second.

I am leaning town on Blank because his reads give me a fuck ton of town vibes. The only reason I'm not putting him at strong town lean is because I don't like his intentional lurking. His reasoning is plausible, but lurking as scum, in order to see how the game progresses before you start making fake reads in order to benefit you and your scumpartner is also a possbility. (Another reason I'm scumreading Thor - the inactivity at the start. I can't be 100% certain that he is telling the truth.)

Leaning town on MissTerry because she is behaving just like a newb townie would behave in my eyes. She is constantly sharing her throught process, because she wants to be understood.

Welcome Shadow.

Why are you putting the person with the biggest wagon on L-1 before you even caught up?

The day you find out why, you'd have become a better mafia player.

I'm moving you from Lean Scum to Scum because of this post. This is not a valid answer to the question. Instead of walking me through your thought process, you answer in a cryptic way. This prevents you from being read, and gives you alot of possibilities about how to continue your play. So far, only me, Loop and Thor have mentioned you putting Loop on L-1. Let me guess, you are waiting for everyone else to give your opinion, see how everyone thinks, and then you will actually answer the question, in a way that benefits you the most? (as in, you will give the reason that the most people will guess?)

[Harkonnen97]

Also, the thing I said about hammering is directed to everyone. A town hammering without giving intent is a possibility. (I was town in my previous game and I did it. Twice. )

[Harkonnen97]

Do you have reads?

[Harkonnen97]

Creature why were ypi so obsessed with lurking since the start of the game, I haven't played many games with you but I haven't seen such a thing from you before.

Also I'm pretty sure this was asked a million times already and Creature already answered.

[Harkonnen97]

I can only see 3 reasons for you to refuse to interact with me:

1) You think I'm scum

2) You think I'm a newb town and not worth your time

2) You're scum

Which one is it?

[Harkonnen97]

3)*

[Harkonnen97]

For all he knows, there are already multiple other players threatening to vote a claimed PR.

Wait what??? Did I miss someone claiming PR?

[Harkonnen97]

Also, I've looked at two of Thor's town games and one of his scum games. His playstyle is the same every time. I hate using meta, but I don't want to deny a possibility of town!Thor who is being more lazy/stubborn this game than he normally is. Moving him from Scum to Lean Scum for now, because I like some of his late posts (I don't agree with them, but I feel like he is pushing the wagon a bit more properly now, and he is giving Loop a chance to defend himself by asking questions that actually hold value, instead of asking something like "if ur scum, why does ur name start with L? and if ur town, why doesn't ur name start with L?")

Thor, you defend Shadow by claiming that "people are stoopid sometimes".

Why can this apply to Shadow, but can't apply to Loop? What makes you see these two players as different?

[Harkonnen97]

MissTerry and Lucca, what are your reads on all players?

[Harkonnen97]

To add futher to #359:

I mean, you said it yourself that people can do stupid things sometimes, and you offered to give some examples of town hammering themselves, etc.
Question: What were they thinking?
Answer: We can't know.
You can't really look for good logic there.

I see the same thing with Shadow. If we assume that he is scum, and try to use common sense and figure out what would his plan be to put the biggest wagon on L-1 before reading the thread: the only explanation is that he would be hoping for a newbtown to hammer. Highly unlikely, I have to agree.
But, what if we don't use common logic? What if this wasn't scum!Shadow's plan at all, but it is something else entirely? Something that doesn't make alot of sense? (Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude Shadow. Don't take it personally)
The point is, both town and scum can do weird things. I can't prove that scum!Shadow had a plan with that vote. But also you can't prove that the vote is town-motivated.

I think we can agree that his vote is NAI.

Now, if we take a look at his reasonings for it, or to be more precise, outright

refusal

to freely present his reasoning without being asked for it - that's where I think Shadow is slipping.

[Harkonnen97]

What is "NAI?"

Not alignment-indicative. Basically, neither towny, nor scummy.

Why do you say that me and penguin's reasonings don't put pressure while Thor's do?

Because Thor's questioning makes sense from time to time. Penguin's doesn't as much (at least for me), and yours is quite silly, MissTerry. I'm still trying to figure out if this is an experience issue though, and not alignment.

Question, is claiming roles (anything other than basic sides) something normal and/or recommended when playing? If so, how early in the game? Would you do it when there is pressure against you and the possibility of getting lynched?

When playing as a PR, I suggest you claim only if you think that you've caught scum. (for example: Cop getting a guilty resut on someone)
Other than that, be conservative when claiming (not just PR, but if you're Vanilla Townie too), and do it only when you're at L-1 and you are threatened to get lynched.
Another time to claim PR is to CC someone. (CC stands for counter claim). Let's say you're a Tracker, and someone claims Jailkeeper. It's impossible for both Tracker and Jailkeeper to exist in the same game, due to the matrix that the roles are chosen from, so you could claim that you're Tracker and claim that the person claiming Jailkeeper is lying.

[Harkonnen97]

To add further to #365:

Actually, if you are a PR and you think you've caught scum, don't immediately claim. Instead, start pushing them using logic, and see if that works. If you're lucky, you might get them lynched without having to reveal yourself.

[Harkonnen97]

Shadow, why do you refuse to interact with us?

[Harkonnen97]

Town or scum, calling me stupid is unnecessary.

Highly unlikely, I have to agree.

I never said that I think it was your scum plan.

Another thing:

Why would that be my scum plan, putting him on L-1, I EVEN POINT OUT THAT I PUT HIM ON L-1.

This is WIFOM.

Why are you getting so overly defensive? And why do you still refuse to communicate?

[Harkonnen97]

This is a game for newbies. People not reading must be something that should be expected, and we must take precautions against it.

Did you even read past page 10?

[Harkonnen97]

So, what did you learn from everyone's reaction to you putting Loop on L-1?

[Harkonnen97]

There is nothing really going on to progress the game right now. We've already said what we have to say. The only things that can provide further discussion are lucca's replacement, MissTerry's reads and your reads.

What are you waiting for?

[Harkonnen97]

I think that scum would be more persuasive, while town doesn't care as much about how they're being read and are much more primal and turbulent. So Shadow's behaviour is actually striking me as town. But I don't like how I had to pull his words out of his mouth, so I'm putting him at null for now.

Town - Loopdan
Lean Town - Creature, BlankFace, MissTerry
Null - Penguin, Lucca, Shadow
Lean Scum - Thor
Scum -

UNVOTE:

Thor, what are your reads?

[Harkonnen97]

MissTerry, what do you find wrong with Creature's reads?

[Harkonnen97]

I want to vote for lucca, but since the slot is inactive what's the point

VOTE: MissTerry

She is at L-2

Missy, please respond to these:

MissTerry, what do you find wrong with Creature's reads?

That last sentence. "...should not be something I can be scummed for." Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but The subtext of that reads like scum saying "yeah I'm scum, but that's a bad reason for scum reading me."

Also, why are you townreading me?

[Harkonnen97]

Yes.

[Harkonnen97]

Yes.

To add more to this, since you will probably ask me about it, Loop. I looked through MissTerry's ISO and I found a major scumslip (not the thing you pointed out). I'll explain it later, waiting for her response first.

[Harkonnen97]

There's nothing scummy that I found in Missy's ISO. Things have been easy for her so far this game. I wanted to see how she would handle pressure. And you know what?

UNVOTE:

I like what I saw. Moving her from Lean Town to Town.

VOTE: Shadow

Sorry if this sounds rude, but if you keep refusing to give your full reads list I will not oppose policy lynching you.

[Harkonnen97]

The only reason you'd vote an empty slot is if you're planning to lynch, so:
Is everyone fine with lucca lynch?
Do you think we should end the day now?

I'm definitely not okay with lynching someone who can't even defend themself. An exception to that would be if the slot is blatant and obvious scum - which in this case, it isn't. Waiting for lucca's replacement and judging the slot by that is better.

[Harkonnen97]

Brilliant, this is what I wanted.
Now that my wagon gains some traction and I raise more points against MT, their town read on me suddenly vanishes and they conveniently vote me.

Can we please fucking lynch this

YOUR READS PLEASE FFS

[Harkonnen97]

Sorry for the caps. But it's starting to get slightly annoying. Do you even have reads, or are you making a monkey out of me?

[Harkonnen97]

Shadow, sorry if this sounds rude, but I think that you are either scum, or newbtown with an attitude problem.

[Harkonnen97]

Welcome Paladin.

I'm not reading Shadow's rude behaviour as a frustrated town anymore. You just have a problem with being unable to stay calm, so I think that you would act the same as scum. I understand getting heated up, but you shouldn't be so rude, especially to females.

VOTE: serrapaladin

This is your welcoming gift.

[Harkonnen97]

Oh nice, BlankFace is reaction testing me again.

[Harkonnen97]

Town - Loopdan, MissTerry
Lean Town - Creature, BlankFace
Null - serrapaladin, Penguin, Thor
Lean Scum - Shadow_Step

Moving Thor up to Null because his late posts feel really townish, and he finally stopped tunneling.

Moving Shadow back to Lean Scum because he is tunneling and I don't like his refusal to interact. He's either a very stubborn town, or scum who is posing as one, can't tell which.

Paladin, when you catch up, please give us your thoughts.

Shadow, how many games of Mafia have you played before this one?

[Harkonnen97]

Do you have reads?

I do, I'll share them when I see fit.

Someone please explain me the town motivation behind this. I'll wait.

Shadow, sorry if this sounds rude, but I think that you are either scum, or newbtown with an attitude problem.

I'm not scum or newbtown or have an attitude problem.
I have a legit reason to not share my reads. I don't want scum to kill off my town reads. Also, if you were smart enough it should be obvious enough what my reads on certain players are from my posts.

He claims that he isn't giving his town reads, in fear of the mafia killing them. But then in the same post he also says that if I look closely at his posts, I could see his reads on certain players.

Can someone please explain to me what prevents the Mafia from examining his posts, seeing who are his so precious town reads and killing them off, like he is so afraid that they will do?

I'm asking for his reads and I will keep doing it because I want to read his slot. Not giving your reads makes your slot harder to read, and I dare anyone to argue with me on that.

[Harkonnen97]

My biggest scumread is Shadow, but ideally I would like it if Paladin catches up and shares his thoughts first. A new set of eyes looking through the game is helpful, plus Paladin might end up being a better lynch than Shadow.

When there are 48 hours until deadline I'm switching my vote from Paladin to Shadow.

[Harkonnen97]

Well, Mafia isn't a linear game, and it can be played in a million different ways. Personally, I disagree with not giving your reads on purpose as town. I really don't see how that benefits you and the rest of the town, no matter how hard I try. On the flip side, it makes your slot harder to read, which increases your chances of getting yourself mislynched and reduces your town credibility. All in all, my opinion on it is that it's more of a detriment than it is helpful.

[Harkonnen97]

My phone is borked, as a wae ing to everyone so my activity my drop a little bit.

He posted this yesterday.

[Harkonnen97]

Anyone supports a Thor lynch?

If there aren't enough supporters for a Shadow lynch I'm moving to Thor.

[Harkonnen97]

I don't understand this chart. What do the different columns stand for?

[Harkonnen97]

Thor's lurking at game start is the towniest thing he has done all game.

I can't tell if that's a humorous way of you saying that Thor is scum, or you actually believe that.

@Creature This looks more of a playstyle comparison than a town/scum comparison to me tbh. You are flip-flopping and changing your reads often, while Thor is bullheaded and doesn't. I find both of your playstyles in that regard NAI.

[Harkonnen97]

Besides scumreading Missy, do you have other reads Paladin?

[Harkonnen97]

I don't know if everyone is like you in non-newbie games Paladin, and if I am being too pushy with asking people to lay out their reads, but I don't like your latest post. What's the problem with showing what's your stance on everything?

I understood that you are townreading Loop, not scumreading Thor and scumreading Missy. Did I miss anything?

[Harkonnen97]

What you are saying makes sense. But I am paranoid about something else - how would the two scumpartners read each other early on? Townreading and scumreading themselves both carry risks, while nullreading each other - or even better - not reading each other at all is really safe. It doesn't let us make any associations when one of them flips. I hope that you are understanding my reasoning for suspecting Shadow because of that. And for the exact same reason, I am also suspecting you.

[Harkonnen97]

Let me tell you something, this game doesn't revolve around you.
You don't tell us what optimal town play is.
You're a noob, behave like one xD

Well that's funny, because I consider you the biggest noob in this game

This is definitely personal, but in early games, I was much more happy to give off-the-cuff remarks as town when tired or drunk, whereas I felt like I needed to be somewhat on it to play scum well.

Serrapaladin =/= MissTerry. Just because town!Paladin always gives his thoughts, even when he isn't in the best condition, doesn't mean that town!MissTerry does the same.

I'll do it tomorrow as I'm feeling a bit tired.

At your leisure

Missy, this was a sarcastic remark from Paladin towards you.


My lynch order:

Shadow>Paladin>Thor>Penguin>Creature>Blank>Missy>Loop

VOTE: Shadow_step

[Harkonnen97]

Shadow and Paladin are both playing in the exact same way. They both refuse to give their reads, they claim that it's pro-town, and tunnel on MissTerry. I am willing to bet it's Shadow/Paladin scumbros.

[Harkonnen97]

@Paladin--No, your ISOs aren't similiar. Unlike Shadow, you are polite and experienced.

Your actions, presence, and outputs are what's similiar.

[Harkonnen97]

@Paladin--No, your ISOs aren't similiar. Unlike Shadow, you are polite and experienced.

Your actions, presence, and outputs are what's similiar.

Do you actually believe this?

Yes, I do. You are adressing more things than Tunnel_step, but there is definitely a similarity in you two.

Sorry that you are being given a hard time, don't take it personally. But we don't have an obvscum to lynch for today and we are running out of time.

[Harkonnen97]

@Paladin--The similarity being that you believe that being transparent with your reads is pro-town. You've both explained your logic behind that, but the problem is this: by refusing to explain your stance, you give us less info. Sure, if you're town, that's a good thing. But what if you're scum? Then that isn't a good thing for us at all, is it? With your strategy, you are leaving us

hoping

that you're town.

I don't think that it's worth to not give your town reads in fear of them getting night killed. We do have Power Roles after all.
And I don't think that this game is toxic. Sorry if you aren't enjoying it.

[Harkonnen97]

tbh I am not that confident Blank is town.

Because of the post that Paladin just made, or for a different reason?

[Harkonnen97]

Creature you are weirding me out. Your reads keep changing all the time.

I need to take a look at some of your past games to see if that's just your playstyle, or there's more to it.

[Harkonnen97]

Uh... How can I find some games of someone? Do I click their profile, click on "search user's posts", and look in there, or is there an easier way?

[Harkonnen97]

Oh nvm, I realized you also had a wiki page.

I will specifically

not

look at the games you want me to look at

[Harkonnen97]

Penguin what's your lynch priority?

[Harkonnen97]

Creature and Loop please place your votes.

[Harkonnen97]

[Harkonnen97]

I still think we can gather 5 votes for a Shadow lynch. If that can't happen I'm switching to Paladin.

p-edit: Penguin still wants a Loop lynch, he said it himself.

[Harkonnen97]

Help me complete here

My lynch order:

Shadow>Paladin>Thor>Penguin>Creature>Blank>Missy>Loop

[Harkonnen97]

Hark continuing to tunnel on me is so bad and the reason he is voting me, "because I'm not sharing a readlist" is so pathetic. I don't think he himself would buy that, which makes me think he is scum.
Like there is so much going on today and the best he's got is that "Shadow isn't posting a readlist, so he must be scum."

Tell me one important thing that I did not adress today. I'll wait.

[Harkonnen97]

VOTE: serrapaladin

He is at L-1.

[Harkonnen97]

If you were trying to be deliberately obtuse, pointing that fact out defeats the purpose. You act like scum don't have enough to go on as it is. Either you cooperate or I death tunnel you for the rest of the game. It is your call.

Comply or be destroyed...all else be damned? Yeah...that's helpful for the town. It's been about a week since you've contributed anything other than harping on Paladin's reads. You were iffy on Loop originally...what's your take now? What do you think about Creature?

Penguin, I've looked at your ISO, and this quote above is the

only

time you have interacted with Blank recently. Why are you scumreading him?

[Harkonnen97]

Hark/Creature are probably both bad rather than scum. Shadow is probtown, too.

Why am I bad?

[Harkonnen97]

Penguin, I've looked at your ISO, and this quote above is the only time you have interacted with Blank recently. Why are you scumreading him?

By recently I mean like the last week.

[Harkonnen97]

And why didn't you say all of this earlier? Why are you stating that you are scumreading him at the last possible moment, when we are desperate to get a decent wagon going?

[Harkonnen97]

Let me rephrase that.

And why didn't you say all of this earlier? Why are you pushing him at the last possible moment, when we are desperate to get a decent wagon going?

[Harkonnen97]

Let me rephrase that.

And why didn't you say all of this earlier? Why are you pushing him at the last possible moment, when we are desperate to get a decent wagon going?

I didn't wait. He was included in my list above of people I'm willing to lynch. My strongest read is still LoopDan which I had no intention of switching from, but now that we're two days out with no interest in Loop, but interest in Blank, I switched. I do not agree with the Paladin wagon, so I will not be the hammer for that one.

You completely missed the question. Or are you dodging it on purpose?
You had a whole week to call out Blank for his behaviour which you supposedly find scummy. Why didn't you push him? Why were you so passive with your scumread on him? Why did you say nothing?

@Missy and Thor, why do you two disagree with a Paladin lynch?

[Harkonnen97]

My townread on Blank isn't that strong, but this wagon is bullshit.

[Harkonnen97]

Penguin, every time I accuse you, you defend yourself by accusing me of manipulating and twisting your words. You cannot say that here.

I actually think the Lucca slot needs the pressure, but that will have to wait until he returns or is replaced.

@BlankFace-- Where are you?

Working all day, I'll be able to do something meaningful in ~9 hours

That post was made on 15th of July. Today we are 21st of July.

In this 6 day period, you did not call out Blank for being inactive even once.

Until now, when he is getting a wagon on him. You had him as a scumread, but you never pushed him. You never asked him questions. You never interacted with him. I don't think that you would be this extremely passive as town.
"I am putting pressure on him right now" yeah right. This is the exact same thing with the Loop wagon. You hid behind Thor and let him do all the pushing and questioning.

You're being awfully defensive for someone you don't have a strong townread on. Why is this wagon bullshit? Why is it anymore bullshit than Paladin's?

Because 99% of the reasoning for him to be getting lynched is because he is inactive and you all know it.

Also, I think that's the strongest language you've used all game...actually yeah, it is. So you don't care about sounding rude anymore? You're ok with your posts starting to sound like Shadow's? What's made you lash out so...scumbuddy at L-1?

l m a o

[Harkonnen97]

He claimed VT, which stands for Vanilla Townie.

[Harkonnen97]

Hark/Creature are probably both bad rather than scum. Shadow is probtown, too.

Why am I bad?

You've been posting a fair amount, but your votes have been awful.

I will take your opinion with a grain of salt until the game ends and/or I see your flip.

[Harkonnen97]

Shadow, even if you are 100% sure that you are going to hammer Blank, please wait for Thor to give his two cents. It will make it easier to sort him later.

p-edit: we have 1 day and 13 hours left. You could wait some more.

[Harkonnen97]

I'm up for it.

VOTE: Thor665

[Harkonnen97]

Put Thor at L-1 and we will see for how long he stays v/la.

[Harkonnen97]

@Creature and Hark
Why jumping off the wagon so fast?

I was never on Blank's wagon in the first place. I jumped off Paladin's wagon because

you

jumped off of it and made it hard/nearly impossible to lynch him today.

[Harkonnen97]

@IV, VC please.

Loop moved his vote from serrapaladin to Thor
Thor moved his vote from Loop to Blank
The rest is the same.

[Harkonnen97]

What about Penguin? Anyone up for that?

[Harkonnen97]

His "pushing" on Blank at the moment the wagon on him picked up momentum and he is close to getting lynched is bonkers.

[Harkonnen97]

Penguin is playing very passively. He barely and half-heartedly pushes for his scumreads. Passive playstyle is something valid and I can see a town doing it. However, Penguin is a newbie. Fabricating scumreads is

much

harder than fabricating town reads, since you already know who is town and who is scum. So sitting back and letting others push the wagons is something I can easily see a new scum player do.

Pengo, you're fucking scum mate.

p-edit: someone put Thor at L-1 and force him to claim or move to Penguin then. Thor isn't pressured to claim when he's at L-2.

[Harkonnen97]

Thor said he won't be around during deadline, if he was PR he would've claimed.

Why would anyone hammer at L-2 when there's no intent to hammer?

Thor flipping scum would make Penguin pretty much town imo.

Explain please

[Harkonnen97]

Why would anyone claim at L-2*

[Harkonnen97]

If I'm not mistaken, Thor announced he will be v/la before anyone even voted for Blank I think. I don't see the connection there.

p-edit: Because I think Blank is town and Thor is scum.

[Harkonnen97]

This is more townposting btw.

btw weren't you all against announcing your town reads?

[Harkonnen97]

My scumread on you and Shadow is dropping and my scumread on Thor and Peng is rising.

[Harkonnen97]

Not just with Loop. Peng too.

Penguin is townposting, yay.

[Harkonnen97]

I don't like Shadow's and Paladin's playstyles, but Shadow is the townier one imo.

[Harkonnen97]

Loop, you don't have to be in a wagon in order to start it. Creature is the one who started Blank's wagon actually.

[Harkonnen97]

That was the hammer, was it not?

I really am a VT.

Very nice intent Serra. Super pro-town.


Look at the way that this wagon formed tomorrow. Scum is between Creature or Serra and Penguin or Loop IMO.

THIS REACTION IS TOWN FFS

Paladin didn't hammer Blank, his vote was already on him. Blank is still at L-1.

Unvote Blank immediately.

[Harkonnen97]

As much as I dislike Thor hammering him without letting him say a defense is not something even I would do.

Also that reaction test from Paladin was extremely towny imo.

VOTE: PenguinPower

[Harkonnen97]

I highly dislike Loop's reaction. Sure, suspecting someone of hammering before stating intent is valid as town. But reading behind his lines, he was treated Blank as a town flip and was already starting to go against you.

Blank's reaction is fucking legit. If he was scum, he would say something like "nice job guys" or "fuck you guys". One of the two. But even when he thought that he was dead, he tried to contribute.

Town: Serrapaladin, BlankFace, MissTerry
Lean Town: Creature
Null: Loopdan, Shadow
Lean Scum: Thor
Scum: PenguinPower

[Harkonnen97]

Loop and Creature, why were you two so much against a different wagon and insisted that it was Blank/Thor?
You know, if Thor is somehow town, Creature/Loop scumteam is something I can see.

[Harkonnen97]

I've stated repeatedly that we have time and shouldn't hammer too soon.

If we have time, like you admit yourself, what's the problem with moving to another wagon?

[Harkonnen97]

You just said that you believe that Blank's reaction could be fake.

Also, Blank's reaction could be fake (as could mine). I wouldn't read too much into it.

But in this post, you are implying that it is 100% true no matter what.

Also, Hark, my demand for an explanation from Serra came after Blank replied to the "hammer" and said he was VT.

???

[Harkonnen97]

By Blank/Thor, I didn't mean scumpartners Blank and Thor, I meant lynch either Blank or Thor. You insisted that today's lynches are either Blank or Thor.

[Harkonnen97]

So what's your final verdict on Blank, Loop? Was his reaction fake or not? Should he be lynched today or not?

[Harkonnen97]

So, Loop, you are ok with lynching someone who can't defend himself and can't claim?

[Harkonnen97]

So how would people feel about an MT flashwagon?

I disagree. I think she's an obvious newbtown.

[Harkonnen97]

>>>vote for Penguin or I'm vigging you tonight<<<

[Harkonnen97]

Thor flipping scum would make Penguin pretty much town imo.

Explain please

[Harkonnen97]

I'll be going. Will be back before the deadline.

I will be most happy with a Penguin lynch. Would hammer Thor or Loop to avoid a nolynch. Eh on Shadow. MT will be a very difficult choice, I hope that she will come and post something AI. I don't see a wagon going against Creature, but I might consider hammering him. Definitely will not hammer Blank or Serrapaladin, would prefer a nolynch than lynching one of them.

[Harkonnen97]

Okay...I know someone will make fun of me for using such a ridicilous AtE, but I want to say it.
MissTerry is female. Females are usually more emotional than males. Scum!MissTerry would be more cryptic and unemotional I think. Town!MissTerry would post whatever's on her mind, without worrying if it's scummy.

This is her first game. Newbscums are very closed and calculating, while newbtowns are very open and respond to everything. I think that Missy falls in the second category.

Pengo falls in the first category.

[Harkonnen97]

Pengo I am 100% certain you switched your read on me to towny at one point after 281.

Besides, even if you've been scumreading me, why did you not push me?

[Harkonnen97]

TOP female players
TOP
Missterry isn't a top player yet.

[Harkonnen97]

I was scum in my first game and was as unemotional and boring as my Math teacher. My second game I was town and was a whiny little bitch and used emotion in every single one of my posts. I realize different people play differently, but I think there is some similarity when it comes to new players, in regards to emotion.

My whole point is that MissTerry's posts that are like "too tired to post today" are NAI.

[Harkonnen97]

Anyway.
Sorry MT, but you haven't showed me anything that screams town. I would hammer you to avoid a nolynch.

Why doesn't anyone want to vote for Pengo?

[Harkonnen97]

Is this the part were I make a claim? Does Hark's post coins as an intent to hammer?

Yes. Looks like a Pengo wagon isn't happening, and Blank is obvtown.

I intend to hammer.

[Harkonnen97]

@IV I will be v/la from 26th of July to 2nd of August.

[Harkonnen97]

VOTE: PenguinPower

[Harkonnen97]

Well we have 2 possibilities. We are playing with a {Mafia Roleblocker, Cop and Doctor}, or {VT, Cop and Goon}. There are 2 possibilities: MissTerry is really a Doctor, or she is scum who claimed PR her hide, because if she claimed VT she would have gotten lynched 100%. The second option is extremely unlikely, because:
-If one of the scums is Mafia Roleblocker, and MissTerry is scum, it would mean that she took an incredible gambit by claiming Doc yesterday. She would either be hoping for the real Doctor to not be around near the deadline. or hope to at least get him to reveal himself before she gets lynched. I don't think that a scum in their first game would make such an aggresive play.
-The other option is that both scums are Mafia Goons, in which case scum!Missy got extremely lucky by claiming Doctor, because she guessed that we are playing either in the setup "Row 2" or "Column B". Again, extremely unlikely.

So, in conclusion, as long as nobody counterclaims her, I think that she is pretty much confirmed.

Yesterday, it was 2 am for me when I made my last post. The deadline was at 10 am, so I decided to go sleep for 5 hours, come back, and have 3 hours to watch over the game. But it was too late, Blank got hammered. I am a bit torn on that wagon. I can see scum motivation behind it, but I can also see town motivation. Lynching is much better than no-lynching.

[Harkonnen97]

(at least objectively speaking. I find Blank's reaction to Serra's reaction test pretty much town, but I can accept that some of you don't)

[Harkonnen97]

We are currently 7 people alive. The majority needed to lynch someone is 4. I'm not comfortable with Penguin being at L-1 yet.

UNVOTE:

[Harkonnen97]

(assuming that you are Doctor) Missy, it wasn't a good idea to protect me I think. When you posted your reads, you read Blank as slight town, me as a lock town, and null/scummy on everyone else. With Blank being dead, and me being the only one of your town reads, you protecting me is a bit obvious. Anyway, don't worry about it, it's your first game ^^

From now on, try to not protect the person who is being townread the most. OR, keep doing that. This is called WIFOM.
Let's say that you say that you will protect Serra. Which Doctor in their right mind would announce who they would protect? Seems pretty weird right - so scum would think that you are lying, and they would think that Serra is a safe target to kill - and attack him. But then they get surprised when you healed him.

My advice for you is to try to use some wifom when you are choosing targets to protect (this applies when you are Mafia too, and you are choosing who to kill)

[Harkonnen97]

You can never use too much wifom

It's like psychology and reverse psychology. You can keep going further, and use "reverse reverse psychology" - but the outcome is the exact same as the "normal psychology". So in the end, no matter how much thought you put into it, it ends with a binary outcome. Same thing with WIFOM - or at least that's my thoughts on it.

[Harkonnen97]

I would love to hear more from Loopdan about this:

I'm lynching MT tomorrow. Someone else crumbed doc.

[Harkonnen97]

@MT, Hark, are you guys even reading what I am posting?
If MT really is the doc then the mafia can just block her, it doesn't matter who they protect.

I don't see what's wrong with giving a newbie an advice in a newbie game. Do you?

Pengo, what are your reads atm?

[Harkonnen97]

Shadow wanna give your reads?

[Harkonnen97]

Creature was a weird choice for the mafia kill. He wasn't particularly townread by many people. I skimmed through his ISO and I don't really understand what made him a threat to the Mafia. If anything, he was scumreading Thor quite a bit. My only explanation is that either Thor got rid of him, or scum killed him so it would look bad on Thor. Killing the person who is scumreading you the most is something I think newbscum would do though, so I don't think that scum!Thor would make such a bad play.

Penguin, you don't look like a newbie to me at all. You aren't making any silly mistakes that newbies usually do.. I'm getting paranoid that I might be underestimating you.

[Harkonnen97]

Peng, if you are scumreading me about my posts about MT, what do you think is more likely - that I'm defending my scumbuddy MT, or I am scum who would know that she is town and do all of that for town cred?

[Harkonnen97]

Pretty safe answer.

[Harkonnen97]

That's actually a really nice catch. I have no idea how to read Thor judging by his day talk, and I don't think anyone here has. But from his point of view, if his top two scumreads, who has been tunneling on the entire game, are on the same wagon - shouldn't he think that Blank is town? Well, Creature wasn't as big of a scumread for Thor as Loop, but still. The only thing that can justify his vote is if he thought that Loop was bussing his scumpartner Blank. But I don't remember Thor saying that.

VOTE: Thor665

[Harkonnen97]

Regarding your analysis of why Creature was NKed-- It is also possible that scum detected something in Creature's play that lead them to believe he was the cop. This could be breadcrumbs he left, or even just a style of play indicative of a PR. If this is the cause of his NK, then it is most likely the scum team has at least one experienced player.

This is also true. Out of the players here (I hope that I don't offend anyone), I think that Thor and Serra are the only ones who are capable of catching that Creature was Cop (unless it was a random shot, or there was another reason behind killing Creature). And I really don't think Serra is scum, his reaction test is pointless to do from a scum PoV.

[Harkonnen97]

I will recheck the timing and chronology of everything that happened around Blank's wagon. But out of Penguin, Shadow and Thor, right now I'd be most willing to lynch Thor.

[Harkonnen97]

but why

[Harkonnen97]

Serra - I think he was scummy at first, but when he tried to test Blank instead of just hammering him he became town for me. The wagon would have been much cleaner and more beneficial for scum if Blank wasn't given an opportunity to show his town energy.

Pengo - beetlejuices, focuses too much on himself, often makes reads based on how other people read him (X says Peng is town, Peng townreads X. Y says Peng is scum, Peng scumreads Y). I think scum.

Loop - great start, don't know why he got demotivated at one point, but later picked up speed again. I don't like his reaction to the fake blank hammer. But his latest posts assert him as town I think.

Missy - pretty obvious newbie townie. Tries to scumhunt in her own way. The lack of cc to her claim confirms her I think.

Shadow - kinda hard to read. Im paranoid that he is faking an overzealous, tunneling and aggresive town. As a SE he should be capable of that. I dont find anything that screams obv scum to me though.

Thor - I've skimmed over one more of his town and scum games. In all of my experience with forum mafia I've never seen a harder player to read. However his barrier for voting Blank was extremely low.I think scum, based on his actions and votes, not because of daytalk.

[Harkonnen97]

You jusy proved it even further? You first think to comment on the read on YOU.
Town's biggest job is to find scum. Scum's biggest job is to look town.
Instead of disagreeing with my townread on your scumread (Loop), the first think that comes to mind for you is to defend yourself

[Harkonnen97]

UNVOTE:

[Harkonnen97]

Lynch Thor, but then lynch Loop when he flips town

If this isn't a scumslip, put a skirt on me and call me Mary.

Why are you okay with one of your townreads lynched?

Why are you not only okay, but you are asking for it to happen?

[Harkonnen97]

Peng, I'm not seeing what you are seeing between Loop and Shadow.

[Harkonnen97]

Just curious, how exactly would you try to prevent it Shadow?

[Harkonnen97]

Would you have tried*

[Harkonnen97]

VOTE: Thor665

I'm more confident in Thor flipping scum than Penguin.

[Harkonnen97]

I don't understand how Loop slipped

[Harkonnen97]

Loop: If Mafia has a RB, it's reasonable to assume that MT is scum
Serra: You're fucking scum mate xd

This is all I understood from that interaction.

Loop's logic is bad. I don't see how that makes him scum.

[Harkonnen97]

I misunderstood a bit, fixed it
Loop: If MT is scum, its reasonable to assume there is a Mafia RB

[Harkonnen97]

Fine, I won't hold any of this game to logical standards.

I don't like this sentence for two reasons.

First - this is a newbie game. It's to be expected for people to do and say silly things, both as town and scum

Second - You are basically saying: "I give up, I won't try to solve this game the best way I can". You aren't giving a good example there.

I believe that when playing normal Mafia games, there are two goals: have fun and aim for the win. In newbie games, there are three goals: have fun, play for the win, and be a good teacher.

[Harkonnen97]

Please do hold the game to logical standards

[Harkonnen97]

Eh. I think that Thor is a great player, but he isn't a god, Missy

p-edit I was about to say the exact same thing

[Harkonnen97]

Serra, Shadow and Penguin - would you three compromise for a thor lynch, or you are locked on your wagons for now?