Newbie 1725: Innocents, Inc. [Game Over!]

[PenguinPower]

I wasn't talking about your first readlist. But you can't deny that you gave your second readlist in response to me mentioning you.

I gave my second readlist because it changed based on posts made by Creature, Thor, Miss Terry, and you that I read this morning, in which you became more scummy to me and Thor and Miss Terry become more towny. You can believe that you prompted my response, but I do have to sleep at some point and then catch up on the thread once I wake up.

[Creature]

Thor665

Wrong, I would only push your policy lynch if you kept trying to not contribute.

[Thor665]

Because he was doing it to reaction test me. It was part of his RVS. People who are voting for Loop right now want to lynch him, not test him. It's very different. At least that's how I see it.

Wouldn't town have motivation to lynch people they thought were scum?
That's the way town wins the game.

I don't entirely agree. Blank and Draynth have been inactive, but that could be explained with non-game-related reasons (for example, just like

your

inactivity)

Penguin is here, and I believe that he is lurking on purpose. I think the term is called bettlejuice? He was quiet, but now that he is mentioned, he suddenly gets more active, and provides a read list and all that good stuff. That he could have done without being prompted to.

Penguin has been in the game since Sunday evening and has posted multiple times on both Monday and Tuesday - how in the world do you call that lurking? He has posted at least once every game day since he started posting, and multiple times on all but the very first day. I would not even think to call that lurking - why do you call that lurking?

You are right, you're not really tunneling.

I know - what made you think I was blind tunneling? There is zero support for that statement.
Felt like an empty attack made to just try to make me look bad/justify me as a scum read voting Loop.

Why no response to this?

I don't have an issue. Didn't mean to sound rude ;-;

If there is no issue with how I am ICing - why did you bring up the thought that I should be encouraging people more?

I believe you are scum because you're pushing for the lynch of someone who I believe is obvtown, and you're strongarming the rest of us into following you.

Name one person I am strongarming - I'll wait.

Loop is not obv. town, three people are voting him which means 1-3 town think he looks scummy.
Loop agreed with me when I told him why I thought he looked like scum. Meaning he also doesn't think he looks obv. town.
Why should we think he looks obv. town?

[Thor665]

Because he was doing it to reaction test me. It was part of his RVS. People who are voting for Loop right now want to lynch him, not test him. It's very different. At least that's how I see it.

Wouldn't town have motivation to lynch people they thought were scum?
That's the way town wins the game.

I don't entirely agree. Blank and Draynth have been inactive, but that could be explained with non-game-related reasons (for example, just like

your

inactivity)

Penguin is here, and I believe that he is lurking on purpose. I think the term is called bettlejuice? He was quiet, but now that he is mentioned, he suddenly gets more active, and provides a read list and all that good stuff. That he could have done without being prompted to.[/color]
Penguin has been in the game since Sunday evening and has posted multiple times on both Monday and Tuesday - how in the world do you call that lurking? He has posted at least once every game day since he started posting, and multiple times on all but the very first day. I would not even think to call that lurking - why do you call that lurking?

You are right, you're not really tunneling.

I know - what made you think I was blind tunneling? There is zero support for that statement.
Felt like an empty attack made to just try to make me look bad/justify me as a scum read voting Loop.

Why no response to this?

I don't have an issue. Didn't mean to sound rude ;-;

If there is no issue with how I am ICing - why did you bring up the thought that I should be encouraging people more?

I believe you are scum because you're pushing for the lynch of someone who I believe is obvtown, and you're strongarming the rest of us into following you.

Name one person I am strongarming - I'll wait.

Loop is not obv. town, three people are voting him which means 1-3 town think he looks scummy.
Loop agreed with me when I told him why I thought he looked like scum. Meaning he also doesn't think he looks obv. town.
Why should we think he looks obv. town?

[Thor665]

Meh, still butchered it a bit - the primary clipped one is that i don't think it's remotely justified to call Penguin a lurker. He's been in the game three days, and has posted multiple times today and yesterday, and once on Sunday. That's solid thread presence any way you cut it.

[Thor665]

@Loop - as clarification to an earlier question; slight scum on Creature.

[Loopdan]

Uh, I don't have a case against you. I'm not voting you. My point is simply that it is possible for you to be scum without Creature being your buddy.

I agree that it is possible for me to be scum without Creature as my buddy.
When you voted me your expressed case had Creature as my buddy - I was discussing that.
I feel like you're trying to avoid answering the question.

I already answered this. I said it was because you weren't present in the game.

No, I said I'd try to play like my last (town) game if I were scum. And there was a natural progression to that topic of conversation that your summary is misconstruing and attempting to make look scummy. I don't believe you are scum-reading me for this.

You are, again, avoiding the question.
The question was "why would you be easy to spot as scum?"
Can you try answering it now?

Did I say I would be easy to spot as scum? No, when Hark said he didn't understand me, I said I was easy to figure out because this is how I play town--

Loop and Creature, I don't really understand you ;-;

I'm easy to figure out. When I'm town, I get very involved and scum-hunt while somehow managing to look slightly scummy. When I'm scum... I don't know, because I've never been scum.

I guess you are trying to make a case on this because later, when others dismissed my self-meta, I agreed with them--

My meta is one game (1711). Feel free to go ISO me there and see. But yeah, I agree that meta isn't all that useful. If I was scum I would be making every attempt to play similarly to how I played in my last game.

So is that it? That's the case? According to you, I'm scum because I said I'm playing the same as last game when I was town, and then I agreed that meta isn't that useful and that being aware of my meta scum!me would try to act the same as I did last game when I was town.

That's weak, and you know it. That's why I don't think you really have me as a scumread.

[Loopdan]

Creature v. Thor is going nowhere. I tend to think Thor's inactivity is more likely a town indicator than scum. What does he gain other than undue attention by avoiding the game? Also, it would be against the spirit of the IC role to do this intentionally.

That would indicate it as a null tell.

I can't tell if you are reading my post wrong or what.

#215 is me calling your inactivity more likely town than scum, in case you missed that.

[Loopdan]

Sorry I'm not making any WoT. Not my playstyle. I suspect Blank and Draynth for focusing solely on Thor/Creature debate AND not posting any other content.

Again, you state that I'm not doing anything, but that's patently false. I've already said that we need to move on from Thor's activity level and start focusing on other things, but until Blank, Draynth, Luca start weighing in, I don't have a whole lot to analyze. That's almost 50% of the players.

Emphasis added.

^This.

The pressure needs to be on these three.

VOTE: BlankFace for literally 0% scumhunting. Draynth and Lucca have at least attempted to engage the game and ask questions, even if their contributions are inadequate.

[Harkonnen97]

Because he was doing it to reaction test me. It was part of his RVS. People who are voting for Loop right now want to lynch him, not test him. It's very different. At least that's how I see it.

Wouldn't town have motivation to lynch people they thought were scum?
That's the way town wins the game.

I don't see your point.

I don't entirely agree. Blank and Draynth have been inactive, but that could be explained with non-game-related reasons (for example, just like

your

inactivity)

Penguin is here, and I believe that he is lurking on purpose. I think the term is called bettlejuice? He was quiet, but now that he is mentioned, he suddenly gets more active, and provides a read list and all that good stuff. That he could have done without being prompted to.[/color]
Penguin has been in the game since Sunday evening and has posted multiple times on both Monday and Tuesday - how in the world do you call that lurking? He has posted at least once every game day since he started posting, and multiple times on all but the very first day. I would not even think to call that lurking - why do you call that lurking?

I call it lurking because he has shown that he

does

care about the game and he is reading, but recently he responded when his position was being threatened and claimed it was a coincidence, that he was going to make a contributing post anyway. It just doesn't look right to me.

You are right, you're not really tunneling.

I know - what made you think I was blind tunneling? There is zero support for that statement.
Felt like an empty attack made to just try to make me look bad/justify me as a scum read voting Loop.

Why no response to this?

Because I felt that the question has no value."what made you think I was blind tunneling?".
Answer: I don't know. That's how it looked to me. I was wrong.

I don't have an issue. Didn't mean to sound rude ;-;

If there is no issue with how I am ICing - why did you bring up the thought that I should be encouraging people more?

I don't have an issue because you aren't obliged to encourage people more, I just feel like you should be doing it.

I believe you are scum because you're pushing for the lynch of someone who I believe is obvtown, and you're strongarming the rest of us into following you.

Name one person I am strongarming - I'll wait.

I'm not sure if Penguin and MissTerry voted for Loop before or after you showed up. But you are using your IC magic and experience to point out every little detail in him that you find scummy. And yet, you refuse to look from the viewpoint of town!Loopdan.

Loop is not obv. town, three people are voting him which means 1-3 town think he looks scummy.
Loop agreed with me when I told him why I thought he looked like scum. Meaning he also doesn't think he looks obv. town.
Why should we think he looks obv. town?

I don't really understand you here. Are you asking me why I am townreading him? I've already said why.

[Thor665]

I already answered this. I said it was because you weren't present in the game.

I'm getting some Creature deja vu now.
Have you followed my conversation with him wherein we established he had no meta, evidence, or whatnot to suggest that me not being here equated to me being scum.
Do you disagree with that? Do you have some info we haven't considered?

Did I say I would be easy to spot as scum? No, when Hark said he didn't understand me, I said I was easy to figure out because this is how I play town--

Ehhh.
Let me say what I think you're now saying;
"'I'm not easy to figure out, because my town meta is slightly scummy and I don't know what my scum meta would be, but I'd try to make it look as much like my town meta as possible"
Do you think that comment is a misrepresentation of your playstyle?
If yes - how?
If no - how are you easy to figure out as town?
Because if you're town, I'm not seeing it - you are reading scummy to me.

So is that it? That's the case? According to you, I'm scum because I said I'm playing the same as last game when I was town, and then I agreed that meta isn't that useful and that being aware of my meta scum!me would try to act the same as I did last game when I was town.

I have not said that at all - you asked me why I scumread you and I answered here (though would now add in dodgy when answering questions);

I changed my read on you from town to scum because though you opened kind of nicely with actual scumhunting but then shifted to saying a whole lot of nothing and also advancing nothing. At this point I feel like you're actively trying not to advance anything - just coasting.

That's weak, and you know it. That's why I don't think you really have me as a scumread.

I would agree - if my case on you was the non-case you claimed was my case, that would be a pretty weak case (especially since I don't think it shows scum intent). However, my actual case on you does show scum intent and is, I believe, a case as strong or stronger than any other case offered here thus far.

I can't tell if you are reading my post wrong or what.

#215 is me calling your inactivity more likely town than scum, in case you missed that.

I understood what you were saying.
I was disagreeing with the conclusion.

[Harkonnen97]

@MissTerry, Thor and Penguin

If you believe that Loop is scum, who do you think is most likely his scum partner and why?

@Creature What's your opinion on the Loop wagon?

[PenguinPower]

I'm not sure if

Penguin

and MissTerry voted for Loop before or after you showed up. But you are using your IC magic and experience to point out every little detail in him that you find scummy. And yet, you refuse to look from the viewpoint of town!Loopdan.

Before:

I'm going to go ahead and make this official.

VOTE: LoopDan

Apologies for my lateness - I blame the mod for not giving me a game link and therefore it never going into my bookmark queue.

[Harkonnen97]

Hmmm. My bad.

I'm going to bed. I need to rethink all of this carefully.

[PenguinPower]

@MissTerry, Thor and Penguin

If you believe that Loop is scum, who do you think is most likely his scum partner and why?

@Creature What's your opinion on the Loop wagon?

Pretty sure my recent reads should tell you that. Though...At this point, I'd like to say you given your attempts at distancing in the early on, and now your zealous defense of him. However, that would not be a smart play...my conundrum there is; I don't know whether or not you are a smart player.

[Thor665]

I don't see your point.

You're saying the people voting Loop want to lynch him, not test him - I'm questioning why that would be an attitude unique to scum, as I believe town also vote people to lynch them, not to test them.

I call it lurking because he has shown that he

does

care about the game and he is reading, but recently he responded when his position was being threatened and claimed it was a coincidence, that he was going to make a contributing post anyway. It just doesn't look right to me.

How does it not look right? He posts semi-regular, it seems perfectly possible that your comment was closely timed with his arrival in thread.
Why do you think it isn't?
I see no evidence to support that conclusion. What am I missing?
If he hadn't been posting for 24 hours and then your comment had him answering it within five minutes, yeah, I'd see your point. But he posted throughout the day yesterday, and appears to be doing the same today, no?

Because I felt that the question has no value."what made you think I was blind tunneling?".
Answer: I don't know. That's how it looked to me. I was wrong.

That sounds like the answer of a scum player who is making stuff up.
Do you honestly have no idea why you thought I was tunneling?
How many of your reads do you have no idea why you said them?
Should we trust anything you say in any way at all?

I don't have an issue because you aren't obliged to encourage people more, I just feel like you should be doing it.

I feel like everyone should constantly sheep me, sadly we don't always get what we want.

I'm not sure if Penguin and MissTerry voted for Loop before or after you showed up. But you are using your IC magic and experience to point out every little detail in him that you find scummy. And yet, you refuse to look from the viewpoint of town!Loopdan.

Penguin voted after, I think Miss Terry voted before, unvoted, and then later re-voted.
I can't help it if other people decide to sheep me due to perceived experience - there is nothing I have said suggesting they should or shouldn't, and it is silly to hold me accountable for how other people choose to react to me.
I see no evidence to support your complaint about Loop - I *started* the game town reading him.
Then he started to act like scum.
I also appear to still be talking to him - so I'm giving him a chance to change my mind (or at least faking that I am, I suppose).
What else do you want?

As far as I can tell the complaint is that I'm not town reading him.
Yeah, I'm not. i was, now I'm not - that has no validity to show that I decided for an arbitrary reason to refuse to think of him as town. In fact, it tends to suggest the opposite.

I don't really understand you here. Are you asking me why I am townreading him? I've already said why.

You're calling him obv. town - obv. town is a lot stronger than saying you town read him.
If you simply town read him because you think the wagon on him makes no sense (to which Loop himself would disagree with you on - so I think you're clearly wrong on this point) and your other reason is "nothing he has done is scummy!" to which I would also disagree. He has ducked questions, lazy scumhunted, and not actually done much to look pro-town, all of which is perfectly functional scum play.
Considering you appear to make up reads out of wholecloth, I am left kinda iffy on accepting a read so thinly explained that clearly is ignoring things in the thread.

So he's not obv. town, and your read on him appears pretty weak to my mind - so I see no reason why it should come as a surprise that people disagree with that read. It's not strange at all - he's a scummy slot.

[Thor665]

@MissTerry, Thor and Penguin

If you believe that Loop is scum, who do you think is most likely his scum partner and why?

@Creature What's your opinion on the Loop wagon?

I'd rather wait and see the lynch wagon on him, and see how people reacted to his run up and eventual lynch prior to making that value call.
There is no one that I would say is blatantly not a Loop scumbuddy at this point. So the field is pretty open.

[Creature]

Have you followed my conversation with him wherein we established he had no meta, evidence, or whatnot to suggest that me not being here equated to me being scum.

To clarify, I've checked one game of yours where you seemed to be active.

I saw you online in the player list posting in another game.

I don't need complete meta to know lurking suggests you're scum.

I was pushing you hard, yes, but I wanted you to actually start contributing and you can see in some posts.

Either if you found or not this thread, why shouldn't I pressure you into doing something?

[Creature]

Also, I have a slight town lean on Loopdan.

[Creature]

I am thinking there must have on scum in BlankFace/Draynth.

My head says it's BlankFace but my gut says it's Draynth.

[Loopdan]

I'm done answering questions from Thor that I've already answered, or when he puts words in my mouth. I've been reading him as town pushing the wagon, but every post is starting to look scummier than the last. I'm spending almost all my time trying to defend myself from his unreasonableness, which doesn't help me find scum.

[Loopdan]

I am thinking there must have on scum in BlankFace/Draynth.

My head says it's BlankFace but my gut says it's Draynth.

You need to explain that last sentence. It looks like you are testing the waters without committing or giving reasons.

[Loopdan]

I'm not sure what to think of the fact that none of you have asked me my opinion on Hark's defense of me. That seems like such an obvious thing to ask if you were trying to determine my alignment and any possible connection to Hark.

[MissTerry]

First thoughts on all this.
I am very very confused.

Question, what is tunneling and blind tunneling? Thank you in advance because the answer i'm supposed to give thanks for will probably get lost in a slew of posts.

I'm sorry I haven't been responding to questions and adding, i've been busy. I have to sleep now, will write and respond tomorrow ASAP.

[Thor665]

I'm done answering questions from Thor that I've already answered, or when he puts words in my mouth. I've been reading him as town pushing the wagon, but every post is starting to look scummier than the last. I'm spending almost all my time trying to defend myself from his unreasonableness, which doesn't help me find scum.

Amazingly I was able to wall post with another player and also interact with a few others at the same time.

I'm not sure what to think of the fact that none of you have asked me my opinion on Hark's defense of me. That seems like such an obvious thing to ask if you were trying to determine my alignment and any possible connection to Hark.

Your lack of comment on it was info enough for me.
But if you need someone to ask you about it before commenting on something happening in the game I suppose we can wait around and see if anyone obliges you.

First thoughts on all this.
I am very very confused.

Why, what's confusing you?

Question, what is tunneling and blind tunneling? Thank you in advance because the answer i'm supposed to give thanks for will probably get lost in a slew of posts.

Some of that depends, I've actually got in arguments with people about what tunneling is or isn't.
FOr my money this is the proper definition of tunneling;

Voting and/or calling a player scummy while also not interacting with anything that doesn't have to do with advancing the scum case on the given player and also having such a drive to see that player as scum that you either ignore any and all new info or attempt to skew it to fit within still calling them scum.

Some people on this site seem to consider tunneling to be the following;

Voting and/or calling a player scummy while bringing up the belief a lot and asking other people to comment on it.

I find the second definition laughably bad - but you will find people who consider that tunneling (they are wrong...or need to learn if that;'s their definition it isn't a scumtell/bad play tell)

I tend to presume "blind tunneling" to be a claim of me doing my definition - that he has since agreed I was not tunneling appears to support this belief.