Newbie 1725: Innocents, Inc. [Game Over!]

[Harkonnen97]

There is nothing really going on to progress the game right now. We've already said what we have to say. The only things that can provide further discussion are lucca's replacement, MissTerry's reads and your reads.

What are you waiting for?

[Shadow_step]

I didn't like MT's reaction to me putting Loop on l-1. Which was basically he/she/it didn't react to it at all.

In post #363 they say that they are not so sure on Loop being scum as they were before, so you'd think they would attack me for voting Loop and putting him on l-1.

I isoed them and it looks horrible I must say.

[Shadow_step]

I am fine if he's scum or starts contributing, but not doing anything as Town?

At this point I don't think he has any choice but to stay inactive. If he becomes active at this point only when the pressure is up against him he will look scummier than he already does. If he is town or mafia there is no point of him coming now because he will be voted out for coming in so late in the game and unless he has a very good excuse (which is made weaker by him being active in another game) it will make him seem as if he was deliberately lurking because he either doesn't care (town role) or deliberately avoiding suspicion (scum)
I don't think he would stay out of the game this long if he was scum, especially with the votes against him. I think he would have come in sooner if he was when the pressure began to mount and now there is no choice for him but to remain inactive or get voted out.

I also don't agree with the reasoning that Creature and Thor are scum because Creature said Thor was lurking early on and he actually did lurk. My first reason is because we don't know that Thor is actually lurking or if he just decided that he did not want to play this game or has rl to deal with. The second reason is because if it was a deliberate plan I think they would have started their plan so early.

I'm reading town on most of the actives right now, except loopdan, one particular post really bothers me.

First, this progression of read of Creature. I'm assuming he is classified as an active here. MT is reading creature as town.

I'm reading back through and Creature's attack on Thor (especially #199) seems very tunnely. When he was asking repeated questions about Thor's absence, which Thor would answer with valid logic, (didn't see the game because I didn't open the forum opened notice) and asks for evidence to Creature's claims that he lurks as town. Creature asks the question Thor just answered.
I was getting a town read on Creature before but now he is looking more scummy from his interaction with Thor. It may just be the IC Magic at work.

So in response to who would I most suspect of being Loop's scumbuddy is Creature because he's the only one I am getting any other significant scumreads from.

Never points out exactly "what" from these interactions between Creature and Thor make them read Creature as scum.
I think Creature's name was just pulled out of a hat when asked who could be Loop's scumbuddy.

Plus their reason to vote Loop is horrible as fuck, voting him because he claimed that he is town and yhat claim doesn't help town??!?! What ?

[Loopdan]

Thor says Shadow's entrance was NAI. He says it could be equally scum or reckless town. After giving it some time and thought, I actually think he might be right. I still don't see it as pro-town in a newbie game, but that doesn't necessarily make it scum. Also, it is worth noting that Thor earlier said he "loves" this play, that is either scum or reckless town.

UNVOTE: Shadow

@MissTerry-- RE: 363- Why is your vote still on me if I'm leaning more town than scum?

[Shadow_step]

VOTE: MissT

[Loopdan]

I actually think the Lucca slot needs the pressure, but that will have to wait until he returns or is replaced.

@BlankFace-- Where are you?

[Thor665]

Thor, you defend Shadow by claiming that "people are stoopid sometimes".

Why can this apply to Shadow, but can't apply to Loop? What makes you see these two players as different?

Well, to be clear I said people are reckless and sloppy, I try not to use personal attacks.

The thing is - it can and does apply to everyone.
It applies to Shadow specifically because there is no actual case/plan to see there. The scum case on him is 'Town wouldn't do this reckless thing!'
The counter is 'Yes, town does reckless things'.
Ergo - null case.

The case on Loop is 'he is actively not scumhunting and using dodging tactics around questions'
The counter argument is 'he's so new he has no idea how to scumhunt, and his habit of attacking his attackers and defending his defenders is poor play not strategic play, and his dodginess is just because he's fed up with the game, but not so fed up that he doesn't keep posting regularly.'
The counter to the above is 'we're starting to require a lot of presumptions about his play'.
Ergo - the case has teeth.

Make sense?

Perhaps slipup isn't the word I was thinking of. What I meant was that since we're both newbies it might just have been a newbie mistake (no offense to your play Loop)

Saying that your role is town is not a mistake in any way, shape, or form in this game setup, nor in most game setups.
The last time I played in one where it would be a mistake (and people made it) was that ridiculous Oz Mafia game, and that was at least two years ago methinks - so it's a rarity.
Saying you're town is like saying you're trying to find scum - it's presumed until proven otherwise. Saying it doesn't make a difference.

Thor, do you think Loop could be lynchbait?

No, because the reasons stated for lynching him are not matters of playstyle.
He started with decent scumhunting, that he has slipped in that suggests a choice of some sort.
If he had started off by screaming 'pants on mah head!' and running in circles and people had voted him for that, I'd call it lynch bait.
But multiple players have him as a town read - that's not lynch bait in any sense of the word.

If your question is 'could he be town?'
Yeah, sure - I actualy kind of like that he unvoted you (albeit in the face of overwhelming evidence and without putting his vote on either of his second, clearly stated, scum pile suspects...but that might just be newbieness at play there)
He still doesn't seem to even be trying to scumhunt, I feel more like he's making the motions and hoping that's enough. If he believed in his scumhunting I believe he would have at least questioned/attacked me over calling his reads empty and reactive. He didn't - I read that as tacit admission that I'm correct, still wanna force a claim.

Also, it is worth noting that Thor earlier said he "loves" this play, that is either scum or reckless town

Oddly, just like performing a given playstyle, liking or disliking a given playstyle is also not alignment indicative, it is playstyle indicative.
I also have a long and clear history of being a huge fan of L-1 wagons, especially early on.
If I had my way we would have had a claim about three days ago.
You call it reckless - I call it good play.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... _Your_Vote
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... _Anti-town

[Loopdan]

<<snip>>
I'm not feeling it - if he's town he's being super reactive.
<<snip>>

Scum!Thor, your inability to advance reads looks bad. Your "scum hunting" is almost entirely reactive.

I think all scumhunting is reactive by definition - so...sure?

[Thor665]

We're using the word differently - as shown by how I defined it. In my definition I cite that you are calling your attackers scum and your defenders town.
I have one of my early attackers, Hark, toeing at town.
I have another attacker, Shadow, that all I've done is say I don't see the logic in what he's saying.
I don't have any real defenders to townread except...well, sorta you early on, and I scumread you.

So, if you meant reactive the way I meant it - I'll listen.

I thought you meant it as 'reacting to things other people are doing' which is how I think I play, and how I responded to your post - did I get that wrong?

[Thor665]

Shadow = Blank in the above post.

i also had another early defender at some point - I cited it as scummy in my catchup post.

[Loopdan]

<<snip>>
You call it reckless - I call it good play.
<<snip>>

Actually, you called it reckless.

<<snip>>
Because you're expressing outrage, you're proving that it might be sloppy play,

you're getting me to agree that it is assuredly reckless play

but...and here's a deep chasm of harsh reality; town do sloppy and reckless play *all the time*.
<<snip>>

emphasis added

[Thor665]

Kind of an odd white knight of me by Dryanth to protect me from Creature...well, mostly just sort of mentioning my name. It's not even like I was being attacked.

It was Shadow, in a way Glad I'm not totally crazy. That said, in the post three above this one, yes, I meant Blank when I said Shadow.

[Thor665]

<<snip>>
You call it reckless - I call it good play.
<<snip>>

Actually, you called it reckless.

<<snip>>
Because you're expressing outrage, you're proving that it might be sloppy play,

you're getting me to agree that it is assuredly reckless play

but...and here's a deep chasm of harsh reality; town do sloppy and reckless play *all the time*.
<<snip>>

emphasis added

I see you trying really hard for a suggestion of hypocrisy or some sort of clash of opinions or something.

I'm not seeing it.

[Loopdan]

We're using the word differently - as shown by how I defined it. In my definition I cite that you are calling your attackers scum and your defenders town.
I have one of my early attackers, Hark, toeing at town.
I have another attacker, Shadow, that all I've done is say I don't see the logic in what he's saying.
I don't have any real defenders to townread except...well, sorta you early on, and I scumread you.

So, if you meant reactive the way I meant it - I'll listen.

I thought you meant it as 'reacting to things other people are doing' which is how I think I play, and how I responded to your post - did I get that wrong?

OK, I get that. Here's the thing, my reads are my reads. Yes, some of them correspond to the votes on me, but not all. We have nine players and four were on my wagon at the time I made reads. Do you expect I am likely to town read them all. Isn't it more likely that town will read some of their wagon as scummy?

[Loopdan]

Last I heard, Creature had a scum lean on me, yet I've read him as lean-town.

MissTerry has an insane vote on me, and I had her read as on the townie side of null.

Saying my reads are reactive is incorrect.

[Loopdan]

@Thor-- I didn't immediately place my vote on you because I'm still reading some of your meta, and I can't figure out if you are scum or town unable to reconsider reads. I think you've only made one pro-town comment about me since your first post.

[Loopdan]

I would still like comments on 294-298. I've asked for this a couple of times. I like Penguin for town aside from this broken narrative.

[Thor665]

OK, I get that. Here's the thing, my reads are my reads. Yes, some of them correspond to the votes on me, but not all. We have nine players and four were on my wagon at the time I made reads. Do you expect I am likely to town read them all. Isn't it more likely that town will read some of their wagon as scummy?

As I said before and I'll say again;
You had your top attacker and the one who put you at L-1 as top scum reads.
You had your top defender as top town read.

I will agree the rest of the reads don't perfectly match, but that those three line up so perfectly reads as very suspect to me.
Frankly, it reads like an issue regardless of your alignment - if you're scum it's a strategic move, if you're town you're probably clouding your reads.
I've said all this before.

@Thor-- I didn't immediately place my vote on you because I'm still reading some of your meta, and I can't figure out if you are scum or town unable to reconsider reads. I think you've only made one pro-town comment about me since your first post.

I will agree that I don't think you've done anything particularly pro-town since game start.
You are basically doing the same thing to me - I can't recall the last thing I did that you claimed was pro-town.
If you're claiming this as a scumtell, then why are you doing it?
If you agree that it's not a scumtell, why are you complaining about it?

[Loopdan]

Thor, I've shown a willingness to adjust my read on you numerous times. Anybody can check my ISO to confirm this.

[Thor665]

Can you quote me an example?
Because I claimed you haven't called anything I did pro-town within my memory - I'm willing to be proven wrong if you've done so.
Let's say the last few days?

You're calling me out for not doing that to you.
Earlier this morning I admitted that you might be town, but presented the reasoning for why I didn't think it was true - so, I'm expecting your consideration to look better than that if that's you're measuring stick for not doing so.

[Thor665]

If your question is 'could he be town?'
Yeah, sure - I actualy kind of like that he unvoted you (albeit in the face of overwhelming evidence and without putting his vote on either of his second, clearly stated, scum pile suspects...but that might just be newbieness at play there)
He still doesn't seem to even be trying to scumhunt, I feel more like he's making the motions and hoping that's enough. If he believed in his scumhunting I believe he would have at least questioned/attacked me over calling his reads empty and reactive. He didn't - I read that as tacit admission that I'm correct, still wanna force a claim.

Like, here we are a few posts ago - with Thor, the man who refuses to consider Loop could be town.

Have you done something better than this for me in the last week?

[Creature]

UNVOTE: BlankFace

Re-reading.

[Harkonnen97]

I think that scum would be more persuasive, while town doesn't care as much about how they're being read and are much more primal and turbulent. So Shadow's behaviour is actually striking me as town. But I don't like how I had to pull his words out of his mouth, so I'm putting him at null for now.

Town - Loopdan
Lean Town - Creature, BlankFace, MissTerry
Null - Penguin, Lucca, Shadow
Lean Scum - Thor
Scum -

UNVOTE:

Thor, what are your reads?

[Creature]

Done re-reading

=== These are my firm town reads ===

• Harkonnen97 - I don't see scum coming up with the Creature/Thor theory. He's trying to force the game forward, while scum would want to delay it.
  
• Loopdan - I like the way he's pointing small details others might not notice.

=== These are my slight town leans that I am reconsidering ===

• BlankFace - He seemed worried about me poking Thor, which is different from scum that would ignore it.
• Thor665 - I noticed his posts have seems to have gamesolving

=== These are who I am getting worried about ===

• MissTerry - What worries me is that he seems to be just looking like he's doing something and I don't like the way he instantly buddied PenguinPower.
  
• lucca261 - Game started to get serious and "puff"

=== These are having a scum play ===

• Shadow_step - Draynth seemed pretty hesitant on his posts, not fan of Shadow's entrance either, it looks like "Look I am not coward!"
  
• PenguinPower - Most of his posts have some sort of defending and his reads lack pushing. I don't see him trying to push the game forward.

VOTE: MissTerry

[BlankFace]

I actually think the Lucca slot needs the pressure, but that will have to wait until he returns or is replaced.

@BlankFace-- Where are you?

Working all day, I'll be able to do something meaningful in ~9 hours