Newbie 1725: Innocents, Inc. [Game Over!]

serrapaladin · Post Post #1325 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:20 am

Ugh - still wrong.

Fine, I won't hold any of this game to logical standards. The slip call was more of a test again, and I do think there's a mismatch between loop's confidence and insight, but that's probably NAI at this point in this game.

Harkonnen97 · Post Post #1326 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:32 am

In post 1325, serrapaladin wrote:Fine, I won't hold any of this game to logical standards.

I don't like this sentence for two reasons.

First - this is a newbie game. It's to be expected for people to do and say silly things, both as town and scum

Second - You are basically saying: "I give up, I won't try to solve this game the best way I can". You aren't giving a good example there.

I believe that when playing normal Mafia games, there are two goals: have fun and aim for the win. In newbie games, there are three goals: have fun, play for the win, and be a good teacher.

PenguinPower · Post Post #1327 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:33 am

In post 1325, serrapaladin wrote:Ugh - still wrong.

Fine, I won't hold any of this game to logical standards. The slip call was more of a test again, and I do think there's a mismatch between loop's confidence and insight, but that's probably NAI at this point in this game.

I think you're letting him off too easy.

Harkonnen97 · Post Post #1328 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:34 am

Please do hold the game to logical standards

MissTerry · Post Post #1329 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:43 am

In post 1324, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 1321, MissTerry wrote:
In post 1164, serrapaladin wrote:In other news, I feel like a right idiot for derailing thor's wagon in the run-up to deadline. Blank was at that point obvtown, and I shouldn't have been worried about him being a PR. Broadly, the point I was trying to make without saying it throughout the day is that thor is potentially useful enough if town that he should be investigated.
Ideally he would be night-killed, but that's rather unlikely at this point.
Emphasis on bolded

I was rereading the thread and I think this is a good point against Thor.
If scum wasn't Thor, why wouldn't scum kill him in night one? He is the most experienced player and is therefore would be the most dangerous town player. Also, him being NKed doesn't expose any of the real scum team while getting rid of their most dangerous opponent.
If that was confusing, basically town!thor would most probably get lynched N1 because he is the most experienced and dangerous adversary, but he wasn't, because scum can't NK themselves, this makes him scummy.
Pretty sure Thor was scumleaned by a majority of players on D1. Why would scum waste a NK on someone they though they could get lynched easily on D2 (which it appears is being pushed right now)?

Creature was also being scumread by players, including Thor and me. I agree that Thor was more suspected but Thor also has a higher chance of getting out of a lynch by defending himself or being lynched while exposing the real scum if he wants to because he is experienced.

MissTerry · Post Post #1330 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:47 am

In post 1327, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 1325, serrapaladin wrote:Ugh - still wrong.

Fine, I won't hold any of this game to logical standards. The slip call was more of a test again, and I do think there's a mismatch between loop's confidence and insight, but that's probably NAI at this point in this game.
I think you're letting him off too easy.

That whole debate came from discussing what percentage a chance I had of claiming the right PR (if I understood all that right).
If you think he is letting up too easy why not continue on with it yourself? Or read his ISO and come up with other points to pressure with?

Harkonnen97 · Post Post #1331 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:49 am

Eh. I think that Thor is a great player, but he isn't a god, Missy

p-edit I was about to say the exact same thing

PenguinPower · Post Post #1332 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:55 am

In post 1329, MissTerry wrote:Creature was also being scumread by players, including Thor and me.

Not nearly to the extent of Thor.

In post 1329, MissTerry wrote:I agree that Thor was more suspected but Thor also has a higher chance of getting out of a lynch by defending himself or being lynched while exposing the real scum if he wants to because he is experienced.

A Thor townflip would have almost condemned Loop...he said that himself. So, in addition to him being scumread and mafia thinking they could get him lynched D2, perhaps they worried a townflip would implicate one of more of them.

In post 1330, MissTerry wrote:That whole debate came from discussing what percentage a chance I had of claiming the right PR (if I understood all that right).
If you think he is letting up too easy why not continue on with it yourself? Or read his ISO and come up with other points to pressure with?

Apologies, MT. I'll refrain from expressing my opinions to other players and only submit posts directly related to points to pressure on LoopDan...

Loopdan · Post Post #1333 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:00 am

In post 1317, serrapaladin wrote:
In post 1314, Loopdan wrote:Thank you for explaining that in a way that actually makes sense.
So no comment about you slipping the info that your scumteam have an RB?

There are two ways to view what you called a scumslip:

1) I attempted to correct another player and made a mistake of my own.
2) I am scum and let something slip.

I admit the first. It took awhile for me to understand why what I wrote was incorrect, but I eventually came around to it. I'm not sure how to even defend against the second, given that I admit I was in error.

Town now has to decide which of these two options is more likely, and then weigh that against their overall read on me.

Loopdan · Post Post #1334 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:08 am

In post 1324, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 1321, MissTerry wrote:
In post 1164, serrapaladin wrote:In other news, I feel like a right idiot for derailing thor's wagon in the run-up to deadline. Blank was at that point obvtown, and I shouldn't have been worried about him being a PR. Broadly, the point I was trying to make without saying it throughout the day is that thor is potentially useful enough if town that he should be investigated.
Ideally he would be night-killed, but that's rather unlikely at this point.
Emphasis on bolded

I was rereading the thread and I think this is a good point against Thor.
If scum wasn't Thor, why wouldn't scum kill him in night one? He is the most experienced player and is therefore would be the most dangerous town player. Also, him being NKed doesn't expose any of the real scum team while getting rid of their most dangerous opponent.
If that was confusing, basically town!thor would most probably get lynched N1 because he is the most experienced and dangerous adversary, but he wasn't, because scum can't NK themselves, this makes him scummy.
Pretty sure Thor was scumleaned by a majority of players on D1. Why would scum waste a NK on someone they though they could get lynched easily on D2 (which it appears is being pushed right now)?

Penguin has a point about scum leaving town players alive who look scummy.

Also, the fact that players (like MT) recognize that town!Thor would be a prime NK target is reason enough for a doc to try and protect him. So scum might remove him from their target list. WIFOM

I think Thor is scum, but I don't think that an IC surviving N1 is a good reason to scum-read him.

MissTerry · Post Post #1335 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:11 am

Hm, true, good points.

Loopdan · Post Post #1336 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:17 am

In post 1332, PenguinPower wrote:A Thor townflip would have almost condemned Loop...he said that himself. So, in addition to him being scumread and mafia thinking they could get him lynched D2, perhaps they worried a townflip would implicate one of more of them.

When did I say a Thor townflip condemns me? I've said scum!Thor is the strongest read I've had all game, but I've never said anything like, "Lynch Thor and if he flips town you can lynch me next!"

That was you who said that...

In post 1254, PenguinPower wrote: I wouldn't be so blatant if I was trying to shift off of my scumbuddy. Lynch Thor, but then lynch Loop when he flips town.

PenguinPower · Post Post #1337 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:34 am

In post 1336, Loopdan wrote:When did I say a Thor townflip condemns me? I've said scum!Thor is the strongest read I've had all game, but I've never said anything like, "Lynch Thor and if he flips town you can lynch me next!"

Post 890

In post 890, Loopdan wrote:Whose flip will help us sort Thor? A flipped scum!Loopdan basically confirms town!Thor, but that won't happen. A flipped town!Loopdan doesn't confirm Thor as scum, does it? What other flips might be helpful to sorting Thor?

So, a flipped town!Thor basically confirms scum!Loopdan. Commutative.

Loopdan · Post Post #1338 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:48 am

That's not how that works.

Why is this game turning into a series of logic puzzles?

PenguinPower · Post Post #1339 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:19 am

In post 1338, Loopdan wrote:That's not how that works.

Why is this game turning into a series of logic puzzles?

Because the use of logic is better than making simple statements assertions of fact.

"Loopdan is scum."

"No, I'm not"

"Damn, you've convinced me! Loopdan is town!"

Shadow_step · Post Post #1340 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:47 am

In post 1321, MissTerry wrote:
In post 1164, serrapaladin wrote:In other news, I feel like a right idiot for derailing thor's wagon in the run-up to deadline. Blank was at that point obvtown, and I shouldn't have been worried about him being a PR. Broadly, the point I was trying to make without saying it throughout the day is that thor is potentially useful enough if town that he should be investigated.
Ideally he would be night-killed, but that's rather unlikely at this point.
Emphasis on bolded

I was rereading the thread and I think this is a good point against Thor.
If scum wasn't Thor, why wouldn't scum kill him in night one? He is the most experienced player and is therefore would be the most dangerous town player. Also, him being NKed doesn't expose any of the real scum team while getting rid of their most dangerous opponent.
If that was confusing, basically town!thor would most probably get lynched N1 because he is the most experienced and dangerous adversary, but he wasn't, because scum can't NK themselves, this makes him scummy.

No it doesn't. That's a terrible reason to scum read anyone. Ever heard about wifom?

serrapaladin · Post Post #1341 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:02 pm

In post 1326, Harkonnen97 wrote:
In post 1325, serrapaladin wrote:Fine, I won't hold any of this game to logical standards.
I don't like this sentence for two reasons.

First - this is a newbie game. It's to be expected for people to do and say silly things, both as town and scum

Second - You are basically saying: "I give up, I won't try to solve this game the best way I can". You aren't giving a good example there.

I believe that when playing normal Mafia games, there are two goals: have fun and aim for the win. In newbie games, there are three goals: have fun, play for the win, and be a good teacher.

Maybe what I said was a bit harsh, and I certainly won't stop applying logic to this game. Essentially, in a different context I would probably go after Loop for something like this, but the lack of a unified response among the rest of you leads me to believe that's probably NAI. Peng has been pretty on top of things, which fits into my assessment that he's better/more experience than I (and others) gave him credit for D1.

In post 1339, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 1338, Loopdan wrote:That's not how that works.

Why is this game turning into a series of logic puzzles?
Because the use of logic is better than making simple statements assertions of fact.

"Loopdan is scum."

"No, I'm not"

"Damn, you've convinced me! Loopdan is town!"

See I like this. Shame you're likely scum

serrapaladin · Post Post #1342 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:03 pm

In post 1334, Loopdan wrote:
In post 1324, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 1321, MissTerry wrote:
In post 1164, serrapaladin wrote:In other news, I feel like a right idiot for derailing thor's wagon in the run-up to deadline. Blank was at that point obvtown, and I shouldn't have been worried about him being a PR. Broadly, the point I was trying to make without saying it throughout the day is that thor is potentially useful enough if town that he should be investigated.
Ideally he would be night-killed, but that's rather unlikely at this point.
Emphasis on bolded

I was rereading the thread and I think this is a good point against Thor.
If scum wasn't Thor, why wouldn't scum kill him in night one? He is the most experienced player and is therefore would be the most dangerous town player. Also, him being NKed doesn't expose any of the real scum team while getting rid of their most dangerous opponent.
If that was confusing, basically town!thor would most probably get lynched N1 because he is the most experienced and dangerous adversary, but he wasn't, because scum can't NK themselves, this makes him scummy.
Pretty sure Thor was scumleaned by a majority of players on D1. Why would scum waste a NK on someone they though they could get lynched easily on D2 (which it appears is being pushed right now)?
Penguin has a point about scum leaving town players alive who look scummy.

Also, the fact that players (like MT) recognize that town!Thor would be a prime NK target is reason enough for a doc to try and protect him. So scum might remove him from their target list. WIFOM

I think Thor is scum, but I don't think that an IC surviving N1 is a good reason to scum-read him.

More nope. Scum have an RB, and the doc had been outed. Remember?

serrapaladin · Post Post #1343 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:04 pm

I happen to agree that town!thor could well be left alive given VLA and people scumreading him, but logic

serrapaladin · Post Post #1344 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:08 pm

In post 1284, Shadow_step wrote:Paladin jumping on PP like that is giving me cold feet

FUCK THIS PARANOIA

I'm going to look at thor-paladin interactions.

Ever followed up on this, or was it just posturing?

innocentvillager · Post Post #1345 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:00 pm

	VOTECOUNT 2.3
Player	Being voted by (in chronological order)	Number of Votes
1. PenguinPower	Shadow_step, serrapaladin	1
2. MissTerry
3. serrapaladin
4. Harkonnen97
5. Loopdan	Thor665, PenguinPower	2
8. Shadow_step
9. Thor665	Loopdan, MissTerry, Harkonnen97	3 (L-1)!!

Not voting: Everyone is voting.

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

Deadline to lynch is in (expired on 2016-08-08 01:11:34).

Thor665 is semi V/LA to August 5th.
Harkonnen97 is V/LA to August 2nd.

Please let me know if there are errors in the VC, or have any other questions in general. Don't forget to bold such requests to me.

Harkonnen97 · Post Post #1346 (ISO) » Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:26 am

Serra, Shadow and Penguin - would you three compromise for a thor lynch, or you are locked on your wagons for now?

Harkonnen97 · Post Post #1347 (ISO) » Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:29 am

I would compromise for a Penguin lynch.
I'm not voting for Loop.

serrapaladin · Post Post #1348 (ISO) » Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:54 am

Sure, do I have to tho?

PenguinPower · Post Post #1349 (ISO) » Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:42 am

In post 1346, Harkonnen97 wrote:Serra, Shadow and Penguin - would you three compromise for a thor lynch, or you are locked on your wagons for now?

Who do you think, as of now, is next in your lynch line up should Thor flip town? Should he flip scum?

I'm not 100% against lynching Thor; but, we need to understand that, if we get this one wrong, we lose unless the subsequent two are right.