Newbie 1725: Innocents, Inc. [Game Over!]

[Loopdan]

Got on a computer, so here are my reads. If you have questions, ask away.

Lean Scum

Shadow
Thor
Lucca

Null

Penguin
Creature
MissTerry

Lean Town

BlankFace

Town

Hark

Reasons--

Shadow

This slot started out OK. I liked Draynth’s questioning of Creature’s IC-fascination. I liked post 101 where he pointed out all of Creature’s IC-focused posts. After that he disappeared and never delivered a promised reads list. When Shadow took over, he immediately put me at L-1 while admitting that he hadn’t even read the game yet. I also don’t like post 326 or post 327. Or really any of Shadow’s posts. He admits he isn’t reading the game, won’t answer questions, and then asks questions that have already been answered. Not one of his posts helps town.

Thor

I don’t think Thor’s lurking early game is scummy. I think he legit missed the game. I’ve already said as much in post 208. However, his play is so nitpicky and he twists players arguments around in a way that seems to lead to town confusion rather than clarity. I really did think he wasn’t scumreading me, and was just pushing the main wagon for most of this game. But Thor’s insistence on assuming the worst and inability to consider other points of view is not pro-town. Town trying to find scum is likely to second-guess their reads. There is zero evidence of second-guessing in Thor’s posts.

Lucca

Lucca has 10 posts. Didn’t deliver a promised “big catchup” (post 233), and in fact hasn’t even posted since making that post.

Penguin

His read on me is wrong, but he is watching the game closely and is asking town questions (unlike Thor who just asks gotcha questions). Examples of Penguin’s town questions: 169 and post 220. I had a town read on Penguin until he claimed that BlankFace’s reads matched the reads that were important to him. I find it odd, because the only reads they share are that Penguin and MissTerry are town. How are those his most important reads?

MissTerry

MissTerry has a vote on me and the only reason ever offered was in post 157. And it’s a terrible reason to vote. I know it’s her first game, but still. Her other content (what there is of it) is not super helpful, but also doesn’t scream out newbscum.

Creature

I don’t understand Creature’s obsession with the IC. I made a joke about him being me when he first posted it, because in my last game Drixx was IC and he was lurking. I pushed him for it and he showed up and tunnelled me unsuccessfully. So yeah, I don’t like lurking ICs either. Creature’s reads jump around a lot. His read on me has moved from scum to town to scum. Right now I can’t tell if Creature is scum being opportunistic or town trying to read the game.

BlankFace

I really didn’t like BlankFace’s lurking early on. It lead me to vote for him in post 233. But post 266 and post 274 look town, even if he did have mixed reads on me. It looks like town trying to figure out the game, not scum constructing artificial reads.

Hark

Someone said Hark jumped to my defense after distancing earlier in the game. The truth is, Hark has been defending me as town since post 160, and had a town read on me earlier than that. But that isn’t why I’m town-reading him. Hark plays like newbtown. He isn’t afraid of saying what he thinks even if, at times, it doesn’t make perfect sense. He is trying to figure out the game. And his reads seem to correspond to the actual game being played.

[Loopdan]

@Loop - describe his scumplan to me then? And, no, I absolutely disagree that it's a scummy way to enter any game, Newbie or not. You might be able to argue reckless, but that's not scummy. And, since I'm an IC, I'm not allowed to lie about my theory beliefs, so...?

Are you saying there is an equal probability that scum and town would enter a newbie game and immediately place an L-1 vote without reading the thread?

I don't believe you, because that doesn't serve the interests of town. He didn't read the thread. For all he knows, there are already multiple other players threatening to vote a claimed PR. But he couldn't know that if he didn't read. If he came in, read the game, and then dropped the L-1 to pressure the wagon, fine, I'm with you there. But he didn't read. That's scummy as smurf.

[PenguinPower]

Shadow
This slot started out OK. I liked Draynth’s questioning of Creature’s IC-fascination. I liked post 101 where he pointed out all of Creature’s IC-focused posts. After that he disappeared and never delivered a promised reads list. When Shadow took over, he immediately put me at L-1 while admitting that he hadn’t even read the game yet. I also don’t like post 326 or post 327. Or really any of Shadow’s posts. He admits he isn’t reading the game, won’t answer questions, and then asks questions that have already been answered. Not one of his posts helps town.

I don't think Draynth disappearing and not providing a readlist is valid considering he replaced out. I agree and I don't like Shadow's lack of reads, but not that putting you at L-1 is inherently scummy. I almost feel as though you feel he's scummy in retaliation for putting you at L-1, but you offer valid rationale.

Thor
I don’t think Thor’s lurking early game is scummy. I think he legit missed the game. I’ve already said as much in post 208. However, his play is so nitpicky and he twists players arguments around in a way that seems to lead to town confusion rather than clarity. I really did think he wasn’t scumreading me, and was just pushing the main wagon for most of this game. But Thor’s insistence on assuming the worst and inability to consider other points of view is not pro-town. Town trying to find scum is likely to second-guess their reads. There is zero evidence of second-guessing in Thor’s posts.

Can you link me to where he is twisting arguments? I don't think I caught that anywhere.

Lucca
Lucca has 10 posts. Didn’t deliver a promised “big catchup” (post 233), and in fact hasn’t even posted since making that post.

Explain why this makes him scummy. At this point, he's been prodded and I'm going to guess that he'll replace out. Why not keep him null until there is content coming from this slot?

Penguin
His read on me is wrong, but he is watching the game closely and is asking town questions (unlike Thor who just asks gotcha questions). Examples of Penguin’s town questions: 169 and post 220. I had a town read on Penguin until he claimed that BlankFace’s reads matched the reads that were important to him. I find it odd, because the only reads they share are that Penguin and MissTerry are town. How are those his most important reads?

I've already answered this in post 300, and to claim that I think the most important reads are myself and MissTerry is disingenuous. If you don't agree with my reasoning, fine, but say that.

Hark
Someone said Hark jumped to my defense after distancing earlier in the game. The truth is, Hark has been defending me as town since post 160, and had a town read on me earlier than that. But that isn’t why I’m town-reading him. Hark plays like newbtown. He isn’t afraid of saying what he thinks even if, at times, it doesn’t make perfect sense. He is trying to figure out the game. And his reads seem to correspond to the actual game being played.

I said it, and it stands true. He may have indicated he didn't agree with the scumleans, but he didn't go all-out-LoopDan defense until you were put at L-2, after which he became quite zealous towards your defense.

MissTerry
Creature
BlankFace

Mostly agree with what you say.

I'm leaning towards moving on from having you as my strongest scumread...my issue at this point is that this is the first really useful post you've made and you waited until #350 and L-1 to do so.

[Thor665]

Thor’s insistence on assuming the worst and inability to consider other points of view is not pro-town.

This kind of ignores shown evidence that I argue people are not scum basically just as much as I argue people are town.
Are you really missing that? Because I'm doing that with you right now as regards Shadow, so, what, am I just only seeing the worst in you and you alone? If that's the case, how is it an inherently bad thing beyond the argument that you are town?
I don't think it is - I think you're trying to paint a picture of me that doesn't gel with facts.

Town trying to find scum is likely to second-guess their reads. There is zero evidence of second-guessing in Thor’s posts.

I agree that town are likely to second guess reads.
I am on open record as stating that I see little value in discussing second guesses in thread, because if you're pressuring, it's pointless and bad play. And if you're serious voting, then you either need to move your vote, or recognize that you have no better read.
A simple glance at any of my town games on Day 1 will show an absolute lack of second guessing.
You don't check on your scumtells much, huh?
You repeated one that Creature admitted he couldn't back up, and now you're going with this one.

Your only town read is the slot hard defending you.
You might want to examine that analysis.

Are you saying there is an equal probability that scum and town would enter a newbie game and immediately place an L-1 vote without reading the thread?

Yes - I am saying exactly that.
How many times are you going to ask me the same question?
I will state again - I don't find his action alignment telling.
Does that help you understand my stance?

I don't believe you, because that doesn't serve the interests of town.

And, I repeat my question which you are avoiding - how does it serve the interests of scum?
What was his scum plan?

For all he knows, there are already multiple other players threatening to vote a claimed PR

If that's the case, that PR probably needs to be lynched.

But he didn't read. That's scummy as smurf.

Why?
Again and again I will keep asking why.
Can't you answer that?
Because you're expressing outrage, you're proving that it might be sloppy play, you're getting me to agree that it is assuredly reckless play but...and here's a deep chasm of harsh reality; town do sloppy and reckless play *all the time*.

I can show you town self hammering.
I can show you town voting openly stated town reads of theirs.
I can show you town not believing openly claimed scum.

So, go pull up Facebook and browse the news feed for however long it takes you to notice that human beings are reckless and sloppy.
Toss aside this fake as hell "oh, but he acted...SILLY!" gak you're trying to sell the thread.
Then ask yourself - what was his scum plan?
Because you think he has one, right?
Or are you just wanting us to lynch him due to play you disagree with (which, incidentally, should mean I should try to lynch you, and you me also, which means we have three players all committing this "scumtell" at the very least and I could add Creature to my list very easily).

The only scum plan I can see - if I squint - is he hoped someone would derp lynch you.
He openly admitted he hadn't read - so he couldn't later claim he was serious without backup.
He openly admitted it was L-1 - so he was hoping for an *extremely* derpy hammer.
I just fail to see the plan there.
I don't think there was a plan there.
Without a plan all I can see is aggressive play.
Aggressive play isn't a scumtell.

What have you got?

[Thor665]

I almost feel as though you feel he's scummy in retaliation for putting you at L-1, but you offer valid rationale.

I lurvs ya Pengy - but no he didn't offer rationale.

[PenguinPower]

I almost feel as though you feel he's scummy in retaliation for putting you at L-1, but you offer valid rationale.

I lurvs ya Pengy - but no he didn't offer rationale.

Sorry, I said that poorly. I should have said valid-to-him rationale. I don't agree that his rationale is valid, but I think he offers rationale that keeps me from believing his vote was done in retaliation.

[Thor665]

I'm not feeling it - if he's town he's being super reactive.

Top scumreads? L-1 vote and guy pressuring him the most. (after that his scum reads basically amount to calling out lurkers)
Top town read? Guy hard defending him (also done after Loop was even like 'why isn't anyone asking me my value call on this guy?' thing, which reads weird too)

He's calling out his attackers and liking his defenders - that's his presented logic.
If he's scum it makes sense.
If he's town...eh, I've seen newbies do it, but for as much noise as he's making about Shadow his utter inability to describe *how the action was scummy* reads really off to me. All he's doing is describing play he theory prefers - there's no actual analysis being done there.

[Harkonnen97]

For all he knows, there are already multiple other players threatening to vote a claimed PR.

Wait what??? Did I miss someone claiming PR?

[Thor665]

there's no actual analysis being done there.

I actually think this is how I react to his entire wall of reads.
He lists actions, he gives boilerplate analysis (lurking bad, no read with vote bad, he also tosses half a handfull of buzzwords at me when I know he can't back them up) but he doesn't seem to care as to why people would or would not do these things.
Paired with him understanding the concept of pressure voting, which suggests he's read some theory about the game, I can't conceive of that being his honest breakdown.

@Hark - yup, I claimed Treestump, I'm gonna be super useful later on.

[Harkonnen97]

Also, I've looked at two of Thor's town games and one of his scum games. His playstyle is the same every time. I hate using meta, but I don't want to deny a possibility of town!Thor who is being more lazy/stubborn this game than he normally is. Moving him from Scum to Lean Scum for now, because I like some of his late posts (I don't agree with them, but I feel like he is pushing the wagon a bit more properly now, and he is giving Loop a chance to defend himself by asking questions that actually hold value, instead of asking something like "if ur scum, why does ur name start with L? and if ur town, why doesn't ur name start with L?")

Thor, you defend Shadow by claiming that "people are stoopid sometimes".

Why can this apply to Shadow, but can't apply to Loop? What makes you see these two players as different?

[Harkonnen97]

MissTerry and Lucca, what are your reads on all players?

[Harkonnen97]

To add futher to #359:

I mean, you said it yourself that people can do stupid things sometimes, and you offered to give some examples of town hammering themselves, etc.
Question: What were they thinking?
Answer: We can't know.
You can't really look for good logic there.

I see the same thing with Shadow. If we assume that he is scum, and try to use common sense and figure out what would his plan be to put the biggest wagon on L-1 before reading the thread: the only explanation is that he would be hoping for a newbtown to hammer. Highly unlikely, I have to agree.
But, what if we don't use common logic? What if this wasn't scum!Shadow's plan at all, but it is something else entirely? Something that doesn't make alot of sense? (Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude Shadow. Don't take it personally)
The point is, both town and scum can do weird things. I can't prove that scum!Shadow had a plan with that vote. But also you can't prove that the vote is town-motivated.

I think we can agree that his vote is NAI.

Now, if we take a look at his reasonings for it, or to be more precise, outright

refusal

to freely present his reasoning without being asked for it - that's where I think Shadow is slipping.

[PenguinPower]

What is "NAI?"

[MissTerry]

How can it be a slipup? A slipup of what? Either he's town and is telling the truth, or is scum and lying - I don't see any potential slips.

Perhaps slipup isn't the word I was thinking of. What I meant was that since we're both newbies it might just have been a newbie mistake (no offense to your play Loop)

Well, while you did give your reasoning, I don't like MissTerry's and Penguin's reasonings. They don't put pressure.

Why do you say that me and penguin's reasonings don't put pressure while Thor's do?

Also, even if he does say that he has intent, he should wait for Loopdan to claim his role, in case he claims a PR (PR stands for Power Role, which means a town role that isn't Vanilla Townie; basically all town roles with abilities).

Question, is claiming roles (anything other than basic sides) something normal and/or recommended when playing? If so, how early in the game? Would you do it when there is pressure against you and the possibility of getting lynched?

I do, I'll share them when I see fit.

Um, okay? Is this a reaction test or you just haven't caught up to respond?

MissTerry
MissTerry has a vote on me and the only reason ever offered was in post 157. And it’s a terrible reason to vote. I know it’s her first game, but still. Her other content (what there is of it) is not super helpful, but also doesn’t scream out newbscum.

Post 157 (as well as the other time you claimed town) were my strongest reasons for voting for you. However, I also said in the post with my vote for you (#184) that it wasn't the sole reason and your lack of active hunting was also making you seem scummy.

After the beginning he stopped posting and is now mainly answering and asking questions. I mainly suspect him as scum because of his claim that he wasn't.

Then the wagon on you grew (now at L-1) and you had to defend yourself against hard (and I will say convoluted) attacks from Thor. After seeing all that I did later update my stance on you in post #269

Reading over his recent posts and responses to Thor's questioning, I'm not so sure anymore. But my vote will stay on him until I have a purpose to change it.

By this I meant you looked less scummy to me based on your responses to the pressure. Your frustration with Thor's repetitive questions leans more town than scum to me.



@Hark
Will try to post a full read list tomorrow (probably late-ish)

[innocentvillager]

	VOTECOUNT 1.5
Player	Being voted by (in chronological order)	Number of Votes
1. PenguinPower
2. MissTerry
3. lucca261
4. Harkonnen97
5. Loopdan	PenguinPower, Thor665, MissTerry, Shadow_step	4 (L-1)!!
6. Creature
7. BlankFace	lucca261, Creature	2
8. Shadow_step	Harkonnen97, Loopdan	2
9. Thor665	BlankFace	1

Not voting: No one

Deadline to lynch is in (expired on 2016-07-23 01:09:00)

With 9 eligible to vote, it's 5 to lynch

Please let me know if there are errors in the VC, or have any other questions in general. Don't forget to bold such requests to me.

[Harkonnen97]

What is "NAI?"

Not alignment-indicative. Basically, neither towny, nor scummy.

Why do you say that me and penguin's reasonings don't put pressure while Thor's do?

Because Thor's questioning makes sense from time to time. Penguin's doesn't as much (at least for me), and yours is quite silly, MissTerry. I'm still trying to figure out if this is an experience issue though, and not alignment.

Question, is claiming roles (anything other than basic sides) something normal and/or recommended when playing? If so, how early in the game? Would you do it when there is pressure against you and the possibility of getting lynched?

When playing as a PR, I suggest you claim only if you think that you've caught scum. (for example: Cop getting a guilty resut on someone)
Other than that, be conservative when claiming (not just PR, but if you're Vanilla Townie too), and do it only when you're at L-1 and you are threatened to get lynched.
Another time to claim PR is to CC someone. (CC stands for counter claim). Let's say you're a Tracker, and someone claims Jailkeeper. It's impossible for both Tracker and Jailkeeper to exist in the same game, due to the matrix that the roles are chosen from, so you could claim that you're Tracker and claim that the person claiming Jailkeeper is lying.

[Harkonnen97]

To add further to #365:

Actually, if you are a PR and you think you've caught scum, don't immediately claim. Instead, start pushing them using logic, and see if that works. If you're lucky, you might get them lynched without having to reveal yourself.

[Harkonnen97]

Shadow, why do you refuse to interact with us?

[Shadow_step]

Thor, do you think Loop could be lynchbait?

[Shadow_step]

To add futher to #359:

I mean, you said it yourself that people can do stupid things sometimes, and you offered to give some examples of town hammering themselves, etc.
Question: What were they thinking?
Answer: We can't know.
You can't really look for good logic there.

I see the same thing with Shadow. If we assume that he is scum, and try to use common sense and figure out what would his plan be to put the biggest wagon on L-1 before reading the thread: the only explanation is that he would be hoping for a newbtown to hammer. Highly unlikely, I have to agree.
But, what if we don't use common logic? What if this wasn't scum!Shadow's plan at all, but it is something else entirely? Something that doesn't make alot of sense? (Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude Shadow. Don't take it personally)
The point is, both town and scum can do weird things. I can't prove that scum!Shadow had a plan with that vote. But also you can't prove that the vote is town-motivated.

I think we can agree that his vote is NAI.

Now, if we take a look at his reasonings for it, or to be more precise, outright

refusal

to freely present his reasoning without being asked for it - that's where I think Shadow is slipping.

Seriously?
Are you stupid or are you stupid?

Why would that be my scum plan, putting him on L-1, I EVEN POINT OUT THAT I PUT HIM ON L-1.

SO IF ANYONE HAMMERS HIM AFTER THAT IT'S THEIR FAULT THAT THEY CAN'T EVEN FUCKING READ, GET MY POINT?

[Harkonnen97]

Town or scum, calling me stupid is unnecessary.

Highly unlikely, I have to agree.

I never said that I think it was your scum plan.

Another thing:

Why would that be my scum plan, putting him on L-1, I EVEN POINT OUT THAT I PUT HIM ON L-1.

This is WIFOM.

Why are you getting so overly defensive? And why do you still refuse to communicate?

[Harkonnen97]

This is a game for newbies. People not reading must be something that should be expected, and we must take precautions against it.

Did you even read past page 10?

[Shadow_step]

L-1 is important, it's when there is actual pressure on the said player and the way people react to it is important information for town. Which is the reason I put him on L-1, which apparently isn't obvious enough for some genuises.

[Harkonnen97]

So, what did you learn from everyone's reaction to you putting Loop on L-1?

[Shadow_step]

This is a game for newbies. People not reading must be something that should be expected, and we must take precautions against it.

Did you even read past page 10?

Brilliant, we'll never be able to solve the game if we were to be so paranoid.