Cowboy Bebop Remix [Endgame]

[Rhinox]

vote nachomamma

he knows why

[Rhinox]

I have a hunch that the scum consist of the main space cowboy team of spike, faye, jet, and edward. Could be completely wrong but the bad guys definitely outweigh the good guys in the show.

That was the case in the last game, may or may not be true. modwifom.

Agreed. The whole Bounty concept should just be ignored for now because it requires mis-lynches.

REQUIRES

? scumslip?

and ninja'd already and answered, but yeah.

Bounties - Right now I don't think there's any reason to deal with it, but later on it might be worth bringing up

This is what I was referring to. She brings up the concept of bounties, and then immediately says that there's no reason to talk about them now.

This is actually a good point. If the idea was to avoid softclaims as UK suggests, why bring up the bounty topic when no one was talking about them (potentially leading to softclaims) in the first place.

GreyICE

, nacho sk-killed me in my last game BEFORE I EVEN GOT A CHANCE TO POST, and I'm most definitely holding a grudge!

For us to actually lynch the bounty without any kind of luck factor, we would need to mass nameclaim.

Not mass nameclaim, only the listed bounty for the day, right?


I don't care to bounty hunt right now. I'll try to lynch scum, and if I get a bounty, its a bonus. What the bounty system will do is change how wagons work. We want townies on the lynch wagon, and scum off it.

[Rhinox]

E

dited game link into last post -Fate

[Rhinox]

That depends on how likely you think it is that the scum will claim to be the bounty target.

As long as its not LyLo, I'm not worried at all whether scum would or wouldn't claim to be the bounty target.

Rhinox, do you have any suspicions at this point?

No, not really.

[Rhinox]

I'm seeing Vi's Jahudo twitch in ISO.

I'm not seeing it actually. Could you or Vi try to explain it to me?

[Rhinox]

I see where Vi is getting her twitch from 51, because she actually voted someone else for the same reason.

UK gets it.

I see Vi voted LLD for something and Antitown for something else, but neither something nor something else looks like jahudo 51.

Jahudo's iso doesn't bother me right now because its too early to be worried about IIOA. I'm not even sure if everyone's made serious posts yet. I usually look through isos later in the day/game to see if anyone is consistently providing IIOA rather than scumhunting. Right now, everyone is still working their way into the game.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox - Antitown and Jahudo have mostly made posts that are trying to look Town/friendly more than anything else.

You came to that conclusion from just one post?

[Rhinox]

What I'm getting at is, Vi pointed out a single particular post (jahudo 51) that made her twitch. When I asked about what about that post was the problem, I'm pointed to jahudo's entire iso and a string of "posts that are trying to look Town/friendly more than anything else." by both you and vi, which doesn't explain what about post 51 is twitch inducing.

[Rhinox]

What I'm getting at is, Vi pointed out a single particular post (jahudo 51) that made her twitch. When I asked about what about that post was the problem, I'm pointed to jahudo's entire iso and a string of "posts that are trying to look Town/friendly more than anything else." by both you and vi, which doesn't explain what about post 51 is twitch inducing.

We're not going to just give it to you...

clearly...

wait, who asked you

[Rhinox]

Vote: Seraphim

Claim?

really?

[Rhinox]

*burried under a wall of posts.....*

but I don't like the seraph wagon. LLD wagon is better. Is there some reason no one else is voting greyICE yet?

unvote: vote ICE ICE BABY

Grey just curious how you came up with that thar scumlist, particularly jahudo as town after earlier you called him a good wagon, and UT showing up as town, where as earlier he was null. For that matter, you voted me, and now I'm town. And only 1 scum and 1 scummy. You think the rest of the scum are in the lurker list?

god, try to submit a post and preview shows 5 NEW POSTS cmon guys...

christ can I submit a post already...

[Rhinox]

Rhinox: why GreyICE over LLD? Just curious.

I could honestly fly for either one right now.

They both seem to be pushing bad cases and trying to make them out to be scummy when IMO they're not. But ICE seems more likely to be doing it from a scummy motivation.

@Rhinox: Why is the LLD wagon good? Did you ever explain this?

technically, all I said was it was better than the seraph wagon >.>

I really didn't like her asking seraph to claim, and her claiming the exchange between seraph and grey made seraph look bad is backwards - IMO its the other way around. And then she threw out a couple wiki tell 1-line accusations - OMGUS, nice ATE - which by the way, the post she called ATE is not even close to being ATE. And then she decides to build a case after she voted and all, which came across as artificial. And I don't think I've ever seen this case yet, either.

GREYICE LOOK HERE NAO!

Grey just curious how you came up with that thar scumlist, particularly

jahudo as town after earlier you called him a good wagon

, and UT showing up as town, where as earlier he was null. For that matter, you voted me, and now I'm town. And only 1 scum and 1 scummy. You think the rest of the scum are in the lurker list?

[Rhinox]

@UK: regarding the claim request, it was precisely the routineness of it that seemed wrong. "Claim because you're at L-1 and thats what happens when you're at L-1", rather than "Claim because I and everyone else voting for you thinks your scum and want to lynch you now unless you have a good claim".

@LLD: I actually don't NEED to see a case at all. I understood the points you were making in support of voting seraph. But you make all those point and vote, and then a little later you're like, by the way I'm building a case right now. Which means 1 of 3 things in this context, IMO: 1: either you're about ready to summarize, 2: you're about to come up with some epic new points, or 3: you're trying to sound impressive but you really have no intention of doing anything at all. Unless I misunderstood what you meant when you said you were building a case, I felt it was door #3 because you said you were building a case, then never presented the case you were building, unless its supposed to be the post where you quoted 1 of seraphs posts and pointed out what was wrong with it.

I don't see the same things regarding seraph that you and greyICE are going on about. But I just think you are delusional, and ICE is scum.

[Rhinox]

@UK: yeah I think LLD made that more clear in the posts following the claim request, but I didn't really see it that way at first, thus my initial reaction. I just didn't get the impression that everyone on the seraph wagon was ready to lynch him, and that made it feel like it was too early to ask for a claim.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox – Takes stances on the big discussions which is good, but he doesn’t say why he finds Grey worse than Sera. Most of his explanation part is about Lady, even though his attention is more on Grey right now. So I’m wondering why he finds Lady delusional and Grey scummy? Lean town.

Well, first ICE voted me for a stupid reason, and then next I hear anything from him I'm on his town list.

ICE's definition of waffling seems off - adding qualifiers is not waffling. IMO, he's turning a semantics argument into a REALLY BIG DEAL. And then when he actually gets into a conversation with seraph about it, he throws out the overdefensive wikitell because it was just an offhand comment.

One of these statements does not belong:

1: "Toasty: I have a gut read of my own. You're scum. It's a good gut read. Flavor mechanics, IoA, setup speculation, and more waffles than Jahudo."
2: "I operate on gut reads and change my mind a lot? News to me."
3: "Logic has no place in a game of Mafia my ASS. Logic is what I like to operate on."

ICE: didn't like LLD asking seraph to claim. Seems like a lack of conviction to me. Isn't that the same thing he was accusing seraph of in WAFFLEGATE2011?

"Nacho's vote was bad. So he's probably town. Wrong. But town."
vs.
"Logic is what I like to operate on."

.......

Then the godawful scum/town list. After looking at greyICE iso, I think ICE/toasty scum is looking pretty good right now:

"Toasty: I have a gut read of my own. You're scum. It's a good gut read. Flavor mechanics, IoA, setup speculation, and more waffles than Jahudo."
vs.
"Toasty - I really need to relook at some of these posts, I may be reading the situation wrong."

What changed?

And there is his posting style: answering questions with questions, asking himself rhetorical questions and then answering them, a sort of facade of having a cool arrogant swagger, and it all comes across as covering up scum insecurity, IMO. It comes across as, "I'm going to try to predict what someone is going to ask me next, ask myself, and then answer it before it gets asked." Like he's consciously thinking about things he might be accused of and nipping it in the bud before someone else brings it up. Example:

Rhinox: "You think the rest of the scum are in the lurker list?"
ICE: "Do I think all three scum are in that list of 6 people? Is this such a bad bet?

Am I married to the list and will never ever ever change my reads no matter what happens? No. But if my reads change from here on out there will be reasons for it."

This is more waffling than seraph ever did. I think the "Is that such a bad bet" is meant to imply that he does in fact think all the scum are in his list of 6 scum/null players. But then he throws the disclaimer on that he's not married to his list, which is the trying to predict the next accusation part I was talking about.


So yeah, this covers the why greyICE is scum part of the question jahudo. I'll cover the why LLD is moreso delusional than town in another post later on. I've been told I need to be more productive at work... >.>

[Rhinox]

Bandwagoning Lady - What's wrong with Rhinox?

pssst she thinks I'm seraphs scum partner and doesn't want me to know she knows...

Why, because she voted for you for a bit?

Haha.

That's me laughing.

Haha.

The laughter sounds nervous to me.

This shit just writes itself

I did find half of Rhinox's post to be invalid. The one on Gray, I mean.

Which half?

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox: Please read the entire game before asking questions that have already been answered. Thank you ^-^.

says the person who admitted to not reading my entire post....

[Rhinox]

@Vi: GI explained. Rhinox was making a big thing of something OBVIOUSLY sarcastic. And spent half his post doing so.

which part is the obviously sarcastic part you are talking about?

[Rhinox]

Rhinox – Takes stances on the big discussions which is good, but he doesn’t say why he finds Grey worse than Sera. Most of his explanation part is about Lady, even though his attention is more on Grey right now. So I’m wondering why he finds Lady delusional and Grey scummy? Lean town.

Well, first ICE voted me for a stupid reason, and then next I hear anything from him I'm on his town list.

ICE's definition of waffling seems off - adding qualifiers is not waffling. IMO, he's turning a semantics argument into a REALLY BIG DEAL. And then when he actually gets into a conversation with seraph about it, he throws out the overdefensive wikitell because it was just an offhand comment.

One of these statements does not belong:

1: "Toasty: I have a gut read of my own. You're scum. It's a good gut read. Flavor mechanics, IoA, setup speculation, and more waffles than Jahudo."
2: "I operate on gut reads and change my mind a lot? News to me."
3: "Logic has no place in a game of Mafia my ASS. Logic is what I like to operate on."

ICE: didn't like LLD asking seraph to claim. Seems like a lack of conviction to me. Isn't that the same thing he was accusing seraph of in WAFFLEGATE2011?

"Nacho's vote was bad. So he's probably town. Wrong. But town."
vs.
"Logic is what I like to operate on."

.......

Then the godawful scum/town list. After looking at greyICE iso, I think ICE/toasty scum is looking pretty good right now:

"Toasty: I have a gut read of my own. You're scum. It's a good gut read. Flavor mechanics, IoA, setup speculation, and more waffles than Jahudo."
vs.
"Toasty - I really need to relook at some of these posts, I may be reading the situation wrong."

What changed?

And there is his posting style: answering questions with questions, asking himself rhetorical questions and then answering them, a sort of facade of having a cool arrogant swagger, and it all comes across as covering up scum insecurity, IMO. It comes across as, "I'm going to try to predict what someone is going to ask me next, ask myself, and then answer it before it gets asked." Like he's consciously thinking about things he might be accused of and nipping it in the bud before someone else brings it up. Example:

Rhinox: "You think the rest of the scum are in the lurker list?"
ICE: "Do I think all three scum are in that list of 6 people? Is this such a bad bet?

Am I married to the list and will never ever ever change my reads no matter what happens? No. But if my reads change from here on out there will be reasons for it."

This is more waffling than seraph ever did. I think the "Is that such a bad bet" is meant to imply that he does in fact think all the scum are in his list of 6 scum/null players. But then he throws the disclaimer on that he's not married to his list, which is the trying to predict the next accusation part I was talking about.


So yeah, this covers the why greyICE is scum part of the question jahudo. I'll cover the why LLD is moreso delusional than town in another post later on. I've been told I need to be more productive at work... >.>

UK, the bolded is where I talk about the gut read vs. ICE saying he doesn't operate on gut. I see now that it may have been a sarcastic comment that I didn't catch the first time. I'll gladly strike that from my post, but... It doesn't look like half my post was dedicated to expounding on that. Maybe 10-15% of it based on the amount of text bolded vs. not bolded, and no expounding, only presenting once. Is they're a reason you're strawmanning/misrepping me like this? What do you think of the rest of the points? Sorry its a long post, but if you're going to lambast me for not reading, I'd appreciate it if you'd take 30 seconds to read my post and give a complete opinion on all the points.

[Rhinox]

"So we're ignoring this now?"

UK, the "this" you're referring to there has nothing to do with what type of read ICE had of toast, it had to do with the fact that early on he seemed very sure toast was scum, and then for no explained reason, he backed off on that and put toast in his null list. That flip on his position makes the whole thing look like early game distancing then backing off so as not to be forced to bus later on.

You don't have to be attacking me or accusing me of being scum to strawman me. You picked out 1 point in my argument against greyICE exaggerated it into being more significant to my overall case than it really was (calling it half the post), and then ignored the rest of the points. It is a misrep to say that point was half my post, and it is a strawman if you discount my entire post based on one of the points being weak or invalid.

(although, I think I am partly to blame for not making my points more clear. There were 9 distinct point I made, and I'll put those into a very concise list in my next post in a little bit for you.)

So yes, I am defending my case because I think it is a good one, and I'm trying to figure out if I need to communicate my points better, or if your responses are coming from a motivation of defending greyICE. Do not mistake defending my case with "being defensive". I think the summary of my points should address the rest of the comments you made. gimme a sec...

[Rhinox]

Here's a summary of my points for clarity. I bolded and italicized my original post to separate points.

Well, first ICE voted me for a stupid reason, and then next I hear anything from him I'm on his town list.

ICE's definition of waffling seems off - adding qualifiers is not waffling. IMO, he's turning a semantics argument into a REALLY BIG DEAL. And then when he actually gets into a conversation with seraph about it, he throws out the overdefensive wikitell because it was just an offhand comment.

One of these statements does not belong:

1: "Toasty: I have a gut read of my own. You're scum. It's a good gut read. Flavor mechanics, IoA, setup speculation, and more waffles than Jahudo."
2: "I operate on gut reads and change my mind a lot? News to me."
3: "Logic has no place in a game of Mafia my ASS. Logic is what I like to operate on."

ICE: didn't like LLD asking seraph to claim. Seems like a lack of conviction to me. Isn't that the same thing he was accusing seraph of in WAFFLEGATE2011?

"Nacho's vote was bad. So he's probably town. Wrong. But town."
vs.
"Logic is what I like to operate on."

.......

Then the godawful scum/town list.

After looking at greyICE iso, I think ICE/toasty scum is looking pretty good right now:

"Toasty: I have a gut read of my own. You're scum. It's a good gut read. Flavor mechanics, IoA, setup speculation, and more waffles than Jahudo."
vs.
"Toasty - I really need to relook at some of these posts, I may be reading the situation wrong."

What changed?

And there is his posting style: answering questions with questions, asking himself rhetorical questions and then answering them, a sort of facade of having a cool arrogant swagger, and it all comes across as covering up scum insecurity, IMO. It comes across as, "I'm going to try to predict what someone is going to ask me next, ask myself, and then answer it before it gets asked." Like he's consciously thinking about things he might be accused of and nipping it in the bud before someone else brings it up. Example:

Rhinox: "You think the rest of the scum are in the lurker list?"
ICE: "Do I think all three scum are in that list of 6 people? Is this such a bad bet?

Am I married to the list and will never ever ever change my reads no matter what happens? No. But if my reads change from here on out there will be reasons for it."

This is more waffling than seraph ever did. I think the "Is that such a bad bet" is meant to imply that he does in fact think all the scum are in his list of 6 scum/null players. But then he throws the disclaimer on that he's not married to his list, which is the trying to predict the next accusation part I was talking about.

1: first I'm scum, then I'm town for no explained reasons.

2: bad argument to lure seraph in, then jump to overdefensive wikitell and now everything new seraph says proves he's scum while the original argument is no longer even a consideration.

3:

gut read followed by claiming to not use gut

- REDACTED

4: ICE is sure seraph is scum and wants him lynched, but doesn't like seraph being asked to claim. seems to me like scum trying to grab town points because he thinks a good townie would not like to see a claim yet. If he were town who really thought seraph was scum, he wouldn't be upset about a request to claim.

5: It is not logical to call nacho town because nacho made a bad vote, yet he claims to operate on logic. That means the statement that he operates on logic seems more like trying to grab town points because he thinks a good townie should operate on logic.

6: scum/town list was bad. Gives 2 scum or leaning scum, and the rest listed as either town or null (neither scum nor town). Assuming there are more than 2 scum, this means he is actually leaving everyone in the game as a potential future target, since he will have to find a 3rd scum at least and it will have to come from his town or null list. Scum like to have lots of mislynchs available.

7: Toasty is scum and then he is null for no reason, so another example of inconsistency. Aside: Null is a good place to put a scum partner, after early game distancing. I'll look into toasty more after ICE flips town.

8: posting style - asking questions, answering questions with more questions, predicting next questions and proactively answering them. Answering questions with more questions is a form of deflecting or turning the tables. Predicting future questions is scum covering his bases.

9: waffling about his scum list. makes a sarcastic comment to me about where his scum suspects are, and then goes on to waffle about how he's not married to his list, again leaving everyone as a potential suspect.

[Rhinox]

I HOPE you mean "after ICE flips scum" (Insert lol scumslip here against you :V).

yeah lol meant to say after ice flips scum. I have a bad habit of my fingers not always doing the same thing my brain is thinking while I'm typing. If anyone needs me to, I'll go dig up a recent game where I did the exact same thing.

I'll have to think on what you and Jahudo said and maybe rethink my position on ICE, but right now I don't see anyone that sticks out as scummier. Neither seraph or LLD doesn't seem like scum. Maybe I'll spend some time looking into toasty. Probably time to start looking into some of the others I've been ignoring up til now.

[Rhinox]

have a bad habit of my fingers not always doing the same thing my brain is thinking while I'm typing.

If anyone needs me to, I'll go dig up a recent game where I did the exact same thing.

Why did you need to tag on the bolded?

obviously because it was a real scumslip and I wanted to cover my ass

umm, idk why actually.

@Rhinox: Who else is scum? Besides GreyICE what's your next top scum read?

did I just say I was going to look at toasty and others I've been ignoring up until now? I mean seriously, it was like 2 posts back.

And no I didn't do it yet. I'll do it tomorrow.

greyICE, why so hostile all of a sudden?

[Rhinox]

What I do know is that despite being called on it, he is STILL doing nothing to help the town.

A vote for GreyICE is a vote for progress!

so much this. He's flailing caught scum at this stage.

I read through toasty and don't see anything that makes him independently scummy. A couple associative things that make me twitch though.

LOL @ ICE now calling seraph town.

[Rhinox]

Knowing that I'll probably be hit with a rage nuke...
UK, in the time it took you to type out your schedule, which is completely irrelevant for us to know in the context of the game, you could have read through half a dozen greyICE posts... just sayin'...

-----------------

greyICE: earlier you said you tracked down some seraphim games and compared his play there to this game. Can you link me to the games you looked at and maybe even a couple examples of specific posts in those games that made you change your mind about seraphim?

Have you done the same sort of investigation into toasty's play? How about Vi's?

[Rhinox]

ICE: I guess I'm just a little confused of your methods.

You say you don't care for metagaming, but thats basically why you're clearing seraph now when before you were sure he was town - pure meta. And I'm curious as to why you don't put forth that same level of investigation into your other suspects, namely toasty and VI. You've jumped around a lot, and haven't provided good justification for your changes in reads. Seems like you're making vague reasons up when pressed, which is something scum do when they don't actually have reasons. And come again regarding Vi's scum/town list? I don't see anything wrong with it

[Rhinox]

EBWOP:

...suspects, namely toasty and VI...

OH GOD WAIT NO I DIDN'T MEAN IT!

[Rhinox]

wow lots of stuff just happened. I've read through it once but I need more time before I can make any sense of it. What is it exactly about greyICE's claim that makes him town? thats the part I'm most confused about at the moment.

[Rhinox]

Anyway, I'm Alisa, Jet's old Girlfriend. I'm the "one that got away."

I have a 1-shot investigate, due to contacts through the bar I own. It will find members of the red dragon clan.

I have no bounty power. Most likely because I'm not a bounty hunter. Since the Red Dragon clan are not bounty hunters either it seems highly likely that bounties grant powers to town and town alone.

UK: which part of this claim makes it so that you know ICE is town?

greyICE: whats the deal with the red dragon clan? you mention them as if you know the scum are the red dragon clan, but I don't recall hearing that information before now. Is this a scum slip or am I completely missing something?

[Rhinox]

oh wait I should have read the second line...

[Rhinox]

LLD DONT YOU SAY THAT LIKE YOU KNEW ALL ALONG.
DON'T YOU DARE.

How many pages have I been claiming

a theory that required a flip?

How many?

Seraphim is the flip

that puts the nail in Vi's coffin.

Vi hangs tomorrow.

I'm calling bullshit on this one.

UK already linked to why:

I'm not seeing Vi and Seraphim scum.

I have my own ideas of who is

scum with Seraphim

.... useless until a flip occurs though.

I'll take a look Sera, but I'll point out that you did the "Why not him?" tell again.

...scum with Seraphim...

Your theory was a seraph

SCUM flip

to prove who was

SCUM WITH SERAPH.

Now you're saying a seraph town flip is the flip you were referring to to prove Vi scum?

FLASHINGOBJECTION.GIF!!!

And you're also saying a seraph scum flip will not change the fact that Vi is scum. So... you want to lynch seraph first who could be town or scum, rather than Vi who is scum either way????


This needs attention and explanations.

[Rhinox]

I don't get it....

you've been going on and on about this theory that required a (scum) flip of seraph to show who was scum with seraph (obv, you've thought it was me, I've got that for pages, I don't get all the pretend secrecy about you not wanting to come out and say it before the flip)

but now you're claiming that this theory you've been going on about for pages is actually referring to Vi being scum if seraph is town.

And you've also managed to check all the boxes to effectively say "well if seraph is scum or town, then vi is also scum or town, or visa versa and backwards, so lynch one and then the other no matter what, but seraph first because vi is scum no matter what but a seraph flip of scum or town will prove that" (almost nearly a direct quote >.>)

???????

So no, I still don't get it, herp, derp, whatever.

unvote greyICE

I guess for now. Someone explain to me exactly in words even I can understand why the above Re: LLD is not scummy?

I get the feeling there is still something key I'm missing from the last 3 or 4 pages I'm going to go keep looking for it.

[Rhinox]

@LLD: yes, I see that it makes sense now when I go through your iso and see the comment you made at the end of your iso 85

We're good again. You're still delusional, but we're good.

Did you explain why seraph being town makes Vi scum or did I miss that part too?

[Rhinox]

All of this flavor speculation looks misguided and terrible. Role information could easily be full of flavor that is meant to draw the player into the show, which is not necessarily the game. That is how I interpretted my role PM and how I interpret pretty much every theme game role PM I ever get, ever. Seraphim votes based on ideas about Red Dragon being mafia are a joke.

I think Vi has gotten too used to getting passes early in the game. This sub-part level of scumhunting at this stage really makes me question her alignment.

unvote;
Vote: Vi

Jahudo, if that is your belief, what do you think about greyICE having a role that finds the RDC? If you think its all just flavor, then wouldn't it seem like greyICE is lying about his claim? If RDC is not scum and is just flavor, and RDC read the opening post to deduce (incorrectly, aparantly) that RDC = scum and formulated a fake claim around that, then... greyICE = scum, yes?

Or do you think there is some other reason to find RDC members?

[Rhinox]

EBWOP:

Jahudo, if that is your belief, what do you think about greyICE having a role that finds the RDC? If you think its all just flavor, then wouldn't it seem like greyICE is lying about his claim? If RDC is not scum and is just flavor, and

greyICE

read the opening post to deduce (incorrectly, aparantly) that RDC = scum and formulated a fake claim around that, then... greyICE = scum, yes?

Or do you think there is some other reason to find RDC members?

[Rhinox]

greyICE - if seraph were a miller, I would think that would be something that would be explicitly clear in a role PM. Being a miller without being told is something I would consider bastard modding above and beyond a theme game.

One way of figuring this out would be if there are any other RDC-town players. Anyone see any harm in a mass RDC claim at this point?

[Rhinox]

Vi, my role heavily implies Vicious is scum. But I don't trust it because it looks like flavor. I can't imagine you having anything in your role pm that is so clearly not flavor and so clearly can be trusted as accurate.

@Grey: Does your power give a result of "Red Dragon" / "Not Red Dragon" or something like that?

Did you not see my question or did you mistake me with Vi? I can't tell here

[Rhinox]

One way of figuring this out would be if there are any other RDC-town players. Anyone see any harm in a mass RDC claim at this point?

No one has any thoughts on this at all?

greyICE is venturing into delusional territory now as well. Its one thing to suspect seraph to be gambitting scum, but he's not incompetant. "Misreading the role PM" is a horrible theory/reason to call someone scum.

[Rhinox]

I HAVE CONFIRMATION
THAT RED DRAGON CLAN ARE SCUM FACTION

what is this confirmation and when did you get it?

[Rhinox]

damnit greyICE you're not fate LAY OFF THE CAPS 'KAY? its not making you sound cool like fate

I was under the impression that half the conversation for the past 4 pages or whatever has been about whether RDC are scum or not? I didn't think that information was confirmed?

[Rhinox]

well that clears things up quite a bit then. I can't envision a scenario where seraph is not scum now that doesn't involve vi or greyice shenanigans.

vote count?

[Rhinox]

GI don't tell seraph your role name.

[Rhinox]

so you thing vicious is scum but you just expected someone to go "nuh uh you're not vicious I am"?

>.>

[Rhinox]

Hi, I'm Julia.

I've been Andrius-claiming Miller for the past like seven posts now.
I know what a Miller looks like. It's not how Seraphim is describing it.

come again seraph?

[Rhinox]

I'll keep my vote. Better than anything else I could do right now I guess.

but Vi has claimed to not be vicious, so isn't it against your wincon to leave your vote there?


you guys think that Vi-scum would plan a miller claim from her opening post?

[Rhinox]

vi claiming miller as scum when the only motivation to do so at the time is to get seraph lynched doesn't make much sense...

[Rhinox]

you sure telegraphing your investigate is such a great idea greyICE?

jahudo, you still haven't answered my question...

[Rhinox]

well.... vi already told you she'll show as RDC... so why bother with an investigate?

[Rhinox]

Limited Access for the weekend.

Any posting between now and sunday evening will be short and sweet from my cell phone.

[Rhinox]

Of the 4 claims, I think seraph is most likely to be scum. greyICE a close second.

Seraph has changed his story too many times to be trustworthy. Others have already laid out the case there's no reason for me to repeat everything. I was going to point out the stuff Vi just did in 834. Only thing I will add is the appeal to fear - "beware if you lynch me you'll still have to worry about the millers ". OK I'll say something else. Seraph is voting Vi and claims its not against his wincon, but says he won't venge-kill a miller (vi) because he doesn't think a miller is vicious.

vote:Seraph

greyICE is the only one to claim at L-1. I've had some concerns, but so far he's had reasonable answers. 1-shot investigate in the presence of 2 millers is ???. The fact that RDC is not the absolute confirmed scum group yet is also an open question but one that should be cleared up sooner or later.

Vi's miller claim is probably real. She planned it in her first post, and her only intent to claim was to get seraph lynched. It didn't seem like the time to just come out and claim miller as scum for no reason. Maybe one of the other wagons (toasty/greyICE?) are a scum partner, but even then putting heavy suspecion on yourself to save a scum partner? i don't think so... I actually give pro-town points for claiming miller AFTER an investigative role has claimed - saves the investigative role from saving a shot. Vi could have just sat on the miller claim, and if greyICE used the investigate on Vi, she could have pointed out the breadcrums then.

This is going to be a similar paragraph regarding jahudo. no reason to claim other than to CC Vi, and if seraph is town and jahudo is lying scum, no reason to do that at all when seraph was already likely going down. I can't explain the inconsistencies between Vi's and Jahudo's miller claims though.

I think seraph is the right lynch for today.

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox: My role information confirms GI as town, so you know.

@LLD: Is it an Incu-bus!?

I know you keep saying that. Good enough for me for now.

[Rhinox]

Here comes the bus.

And if I'd have not just voted seraph, that would also somehow support that I'm scum with him, right?

[Rhinox]

Info for the sake of info - Nacho was left off the D2 start announcement PM.

@greyICE: not buying it. Not saying why just yet. Lets see who else knows why.

vote: greyICE

UK claims to have role info that you're town, but I can't see how if you're lying to us.

[Rhinox]

Anyone who is town should know why it is impossible for greyICE to not know that his claimed ability was a bounty reward. There is a reason why. Kdub just became a suspect if he doesn't know why.

[Rhinox]

I'm literally bursting at the seams to say why but I'm going to show some restraint and allow some others to comment first.

Last chance to tell me you were gambiting, either you're lying about your role or you knew all along it was a bounty reward, and you have to tell me how I know.

If you can't do that, then you're lying scum.

In other news, toasty didn't hit the reason why.

[Rhinox]

GreyICE: one more question maybe we're not on the same page...

From the start of the game, did you understand the bounty mechanic? I.E. lynch the bounty, get the bounty reward? And you thought you had an ability and no bounty reward until last night?

[Rhinox]

I understood the mechanic, I thought I had a power and no reward.

ok. I mean, this is pretty much all I needed to hear. I'm failrly certain you're lying scum and UK's role information is unreliable. I'll confirm how I know in a big reveal later. Unless there is a certain assumption I've got wrong, but we can confirm that after my big reveal fairly easily.

In the mean time, tell me a little more about this claimed hider reward - it specifically says if you hide behind scum, you die?

[Rhinox]

So, you're saying you could theoretically hide behind a second scum group or sk and not die anyone ever hear of a faction-specific hider before, or would that then prove the existence of only 1 scum faction? Eh, ignore this for now the stuff below is much more important because this claimed ability does not exist anyways.

Everyone do me a favor and go take a look at the PM you received from Fate on March 7th at 8:27 PM (EST). It was the message where fate announced that all role PM's were sent out and we were supposed to confirm to him via PM by giving him a piece of information. That piece of information being

Role Name and [Bounty Reward]

.

So I have already had greyICE confirm that he has understood the bounty mechanic all along and that he claims that until last night, he did not believe he had a bounty reward but an already active from the start ability.

The PM sent by fate says the game would not start until all players confirmed, and since the game started then it logically follows that greyICE did indeed confirm.

Therefore, there is no way that greyICE would think he did not have a bounty reward, because it would have been information he would have to confirm before the game were allowed to start.

QED?

(initially, I thought the confirmation instructions were in the separate role PM's and if greyICE was given different confirmation instructions than someone I know to be town (me), then he must be scum. Now, it changes somewhat in that since we all received the same instructions, the fact that greyICE is claiming to not know he had a bounty reward is a blatant, obvious, confirmable lie and I would think scum would be more careful than that. But then again, I seem to be the only one that remembers the confirmation instructions, so maybe not.)

Anyways, there it is. greyICE, now that we all know you're lying and why, go ahead and try to explain.

[Rhinox]

Sorry, no catch. I PMed Fate "Confirm - one shot hider" before I even opened the other mail. That's what my role said.

I automatically PM all mods my role and confirmation pretty much exactly that way.

Except when I make up silly stuff if I'm a VT. Like "Confirm - Superman. Can Post AND vote!"

How did you know you were supposed to send a confirmation PM at all then?

When you read the second PM with the confirmation instructions, wouldn't you have thought maybe you should resend a confirmation PM something like "oh sry I meant /confirm here's my role name and I have no bounty reward" in order to do it right?

So does your role PM say what your non-bounty reward role is then without the bounty ability?

[Rhinox]

3) No, I have no role outside of my bounty power apparently. Would have been a bit clearer if I had (or it was formatted "Vanilla Town [One-shot Hider]")

This is not consistent with the information provided to me in my role PM.

[Rhinox]

I have specific information for:

flavorname, role name [bounty reward]

all in one line.

[Rhinox]

Cool. I don't. I have flavor name, [bounty reward]

well I think you're lying.

[Rhinox]

Well you're an idiot, so that's pretty much to be expected.

Thats nice. we'll see if everyone else discreet information for role name and bounty reward. Don't think I have to spell out what it means if you're the only one who claims to not have a role name.

[Rhinox]

um, rhinox, how do you explain the meshing up of UK and grey's claim?

I don't know. There is some meshing, but without knowing what exactly was in UK's role PM I'm not sure I see anything that proves that greyICE is town.

greyICE, is there any flavor to go along with your hider ability?

[Rhinox]

/already voting grey

I asked about flavor because:

Anyway, I'm Alisa, Jet's old Girlfriend. I'm the "one that got away."

I have a 1-shot investigate,

due to contacts through the bar I own.

It will find members of the red dragon clan.

I have no bounty power. Most likely because I'm not a bounty hunter. Since the Red Dragon clan are not bounty hunters either it seems highly likely that bounties grant powers to town and town alone. Which is the reason I consider LLD cleared. Completely worthless past this point, but there you are.

It's a decent power, but not overwhelming, which is why I don't have a real problem claiming it. They can shoot me to off one cop investigation, or just cross their fingers and hope it misses. I'm using it tonight in any case, after which I will be vanilla.

he gave flavor when he claimed his one shot investigate that makes sense if he's a cop but not a hider. Or was that just made up flavor?

When we all thought seraph was miller:

...

Fucking goddamn it. Every way I wrap my head around it, this doesn't even make sense.

There is NO reason for a 1-shot investigate to come in a town with a miller. It's like 'haha, your already mediocre power is crappier.

Why would greyICE flip out and make a comment like this knowing he's a hider and not a cop?

When Vi gave her bounty reward, why didn't greyICE CC then instead of letting seraph get lynched and then CCing first thing today? Had the night to get a story straight with his scum partners that they thought made sense?

And finally...

Well I was going to hide behind you [toasty].

But then Fate told me it was a bounty power.

Actually he was a bit more sardonic than that, but I suppose I deserved it.

Why would a hider attempt to hide behind one of his top scum suspects? He would be dead, and no way for us to know who he hid behind. Hiders can clear town, not confirm scum, except in situations which we were not in.

So there are way too many contradictions here. What I am missing? why is greyICE NOT scum?

[Rhinox]

It seems pretty clear you are trying for a LAL policy lynch

thats not an accurate representation of what I've been saying.

[Rhinox]

UK said here death would confirm greyICE town. The information from her flip does not do it for me. I don't see anything there that confirms greyICE's claimed role as town. If UK had anything else in her role PM, idk. She said she did, and I can take some random ass guesses at how she could come to a faulty conclusion about greyICE, but that wouldn't be very helpful either.

As for me lacking a role name, I assume it's because without a bounty, I have no role. I can post and vote.

lol... I'll be interested to hear what your explaination will be first time a vanilla townie flips.

@Rhinox: If you look at GreyICE's crumbing near the end of D1, it would be reasonable to conclude that he was going to hide behind me (or Vi). The whole "oops" moment that GreyICE seems to be playing is a pain in the ass, but it doesn't mean he isn't telling the truth. I think its best to trust UK, who a majority of us had on town lists throughout the game.

You can through jahudo on that list of breadcrumbs too if you want to call them that. That still doesn't change the fact that his scum suspects are not ideal N1 hider suspects, because had he shown up dead this morning, we wouldn't know if it was because he hid behind one of his 3 suspects, the nk (uk in this place), was a nk himself, or he hid behind someone entirely different trying to clear a townie.

I'm not going to beat my head off a brick wall all day, but I don't want to just give up on this. Aside from UK's claim of information, is there any other reason why greyICE is supposedly confirmed town? Can anyone explain to me how UK's flip confirmed greyICE based on his claimed role?

----------------------------------------------------

In the meantime, I suppose I should get involved in the miller discussion. Has anyone seen scum claim miller pre-investigation?

I'm having a hard time believing either Vi or Jahudo would claim miller as scum in the situations that they did. Vi did it to CC seraph. Jahudo did it to CC Vi. Vi crumbed it all the way back in her first post. Jahudo didn't, but he naturally became suspicious of Vi claim in that someone-just-claimed-my-role-and-the-info-doesn't-line-up-with-his-own kinda way (sorta like how greyICE's info doesn't line up with, oh, the whole town it seems, and he didn't naturally become suspicious of vi after vi claimed hider, but whatev. ok I'm done, just had to throw that in there).

Yesterday, I thought the cool line of thought was, jahudo is scum with seraph because he claimed miller to get vi-actual-miller lynched instead of seraph-scum-partner? Well, we now know jahudo is obviously not scum with seraph, so... why are there jahudo votes today?

I understand why greyICE and company is voting Vi, but I want someone to explain how Vi scum makes sense with 1) the crumbs in the opening post, and 2) claiming to CC seraph? greyICE claims vi claimed miller because ice claimed an investigative role - vi already had the breadcrumbs, so she could have pointed to them after she was investigated just as easy as before, but coming out before prevents greyICE from potentially wasting his 1-shot investigation on a miller. So Vi claiming when she did seems actually more pro-town than if she had waited to claim. And then there's the fact that Vi claimed to CC seraph, not because of greyICE's ability - or are we to believe that vi just got lucky to be presented with a natural opportunity to claim miller as scum and make it look like a CC and not "OMG a cop!"?

[Rhinox]

Oh and Rhinox - Your contributions to the thread have been totally worthless. We have too many idiots in this village for players who SHOULD be playing better than this.

go f yourself.

[Rhinox]

Why are you so sure I'm town?

[Rhinox]

Well I've got to reread and figure out where to look today because I didn't expect vi to flip scum, and now that vi has, I see even less reason to suspect jahudo so you're going to have to explain that one to me.

So I'm supposed to believe UK confirmed you as town just before conveniently dying and you got Vi-scum lynched and all that so now you're like super confirmed town yet here you are today acting like you know I'm some VI town who should be playing better. OK cool I'll drink the coolaid. If you're all confirmed town then maybe you should be asking yourself why scum don't feel threatened enough by you to get rid of you last night.

[Rhinox]

I agree with LLD

[Rhinox]

Toasty could be a good lynch because there was stuff there concerning toasty on D1 and D2, while Vi-scum pretty much ignored toasty for the most part. Yourself, Myself, and CES were the only 3 not voting Vi-scum. I'd say there's a good chance that either you or CES could be the "non-bussing scum partner"(TM).

Edit-in: yeah, looking through vi's iso, when Vi voted toasty, it was really without teeth. The vote was there for a few posts while vi conversed and investigated others, but there was no following up on or questioning toasty. Then vi just moved on. That... is actually actually a pretty big vi-scum tell I should have caught (not being aggressive in pursuing suspects). But that would fit as a distancing opportunity with a scum partner (toasty) as well. Later on towards the end (see vi's iso 61 and 62) vi makes comments that seem like toasty is no longer a suspect at all. They also seem somewhat like coaching, but I guess thats not really relevant since we don't know if scum have daytalk or not.

GreyICE, LLD, Toasty, AntiTown, Kdub, Jahudo: all on the vi lynch train.

greyICE aparently obv town. Jahudo prob town. {LLD, Toasty, Antitown, Kdub} "Bussing scum partner"(TM) in here. If its not toasty, then its Antitown, Kdub, LLD in that order.


Toasty was all to happy to vote greyICE in support of my apparently horribad theory of greyICE scum yesterday. Then quick unvote. Then toasty's vi vote, looks sort of like bussing due to here I isod and picked out a couple points and vote but oh hey if vi really is a miller then its open season on jahudo vagueness I don't really understand.

Antitown is a hydra yet is somehow managing to lurk quite a bit. Early suspicions on Vi, then Vi was moved to an outlook brightening list. Next mention of vi was a vote that looks out of place in iso 19. Like, "big post having nothing to do with vi", followed by a vi vote. Still suspicious of jahudo though and even started or commented on the GF theory. D2 would have to be pure Vi bussing though, he wasn't interested at all in greyICE or Jahudo as scum, the honerable mentions from D2.

Kdub - only responded to Vi's questioning. Never gave any opinion on Vi until iso27, when he refers to Vi as a suspect. Only peculiar thing about D2 was that he started voting Vi to follow grey, then unvoted to hear what I had to say regarding greyscum, then revoted Vi when my case wasn't solid enough. Others had already dismissed my theory by that point, so it could have been scum waiting too see if my idea would stick.

I have a townread on LLD but I'm not putting as much weight on it as I usually do my town reads because almost all my town reads in recent games were actually scum. But LLD is still last suspect on the list.


I suppose I should do the non-bussing scums too.

UT/Reck: UT seemed town to me while he was here all the way up to his last post where he overexplained why he didn't have a read on vi. Thats kinda scummy, seeing how vi is scum and all. Not to thrilled about reck's entrance into the game.

CES: no fucking clue. All over the place, very little explained. I recall vi commenting something like "I C wat ur dew eeng thar CES" as justification for ignoring him but I'm not too sure what that means as far as CES's alignment. Quick easy iso read though. Would like to hear more. Probably not going to get it.


I think Toasty/Reck could be a fine final 2 scum.

Vote: Reck

Upon super preview edit (yeah I take hours making my posts so what ) maybe toasty/reck doesn't seem likely afterall but I think my vote is in the right place.

[Rhinox]

edit: I was originally responding to reck#1080 when I made that post so the "you" in the first paragraph should refer to reck

[Rhinox]

P.S. Someone please explain to me why jahudo is scum.

First it was, claiming miller to CC Vi was scummy because he was seraphs scum partner trying to divert the lynch. Now that we know that he was not serpaphs scum partner and vi was in fact scum, why does it make sense for jahudo scum to CC vi to divert the lynch away from a non-scum lynch (seraph) and onto a scum partner lynch (Vi)?

[Rhinox]

I'm still not sure why I'm so scummy looking day 1.

I didn't like Seraphim, but then realized that there were none of the connections to him that I wanted to see in a scum candidate. So he was scummy, but he wasn't scum (look, he flipped scum-like... but not scum). I pushed Vi pretty hard in the early game. Scum. We still haven't seen toasty flip.

Even if I fucked up with Toasty, I ain't gonna put this down as one of my bad games.

I'm going with lucky moreso than good until you give me a reason to believe otherwise.

[Rhinox]

inb4WIFOM

Hey I didn't start the wifom. You should go read D1 and see how everyone was jumping all over jahudo for being obvscum for diverting the lynch away from obvscum seraph. And then yet after seraph flipped not scum, everyone created a new reason why the same situation makes jahudo obvscum. Its a pretty entertaining read.

[Rhinox]

well greyICE you did only claim 1-shot. And like I said before, I would have thought vi would have been just (as) fine pointing out the breadcrumbs after being investigated. As a matter of fact from a scum perspective, it would have been better to suck up your investigate and then point to the breadcrumbs and go lolmiller! So I really don't think vi's claim had anything to do with your claim. Jahudo's, I don't know though. I don't think it would be something jahudo scum would do, but I didn't think it was something vi-scum would do either.

[Rhinox]

c'mon guys vote reck!

[Rhinox]

c'mon guys vote reck!

Wait so what's your case on me?

A theory that either you or CES are scum (from my POV) because at least one scum would have stayed off the Vi lynch wagon yesterday.

UT made a scummy comment overexplaining a null read on Vi in his last iso post before flaking:

General thoughts on sort-of-having-kept-up-with-the-thread:
-I'm feeling less certain about my Toasty vote. I'm keeping it on, though, because he's my strongest scum read.
-I'm feeling less certain about Seraphim's towniness. His last post especially makes my skin crawl.
-I feel pretty good about Rhinox's towniness
-I feel pretty good about LLD's towniness
-Why is Jahudo still voting for me? Not real protown to keep your vote parked here.
-God dammit, CES...
-I'm glad Antitown "remembered this game". That said, his posts make me squeamish. I also loved the attempt to rip on me for activity. lol. Kiss my ass dude.

-Vi's posts are kinda tl;dr. I can usually deal with this, but with the amount of reading on my phone I've been doing it's been kind of impossible to keep up with those. Honestly I see one, start reading, my eyes glaze over and I sorta scroll to the bottom and go "not this shit again". I'll have to re-read Vi more carefully tomorrow, but I don't recall seeing anything that made me consider her alignment one way or the other.

-This whole GI/Toasty/Vi thing is painful.
-I have some snarky things I want to say that I am going to keep to myself.

Yeah, 1-liners for each point, except the rambling on about Vi.

Your "let's lynch the bounty" suggestion. Question: What are your thoughts on massclaiming names, since you've asked if we've done it?

[Rhinox]

I think that'd be fine? Then each day we'd know who the bounty was on and if it was someone moderately scummy, the pros outweigh the cons, and we lynch.

Early on I suggested that the bounty of the day should only say hi when it was their day. Do you think that is better or worse than mass name claiming and why?

greyICE:

Scum had nothing to gain by staying off the wagon.

[CES] Avoids voting Vi like black plague.

If scum had nothing to gain by staying off the wagon (and were either more likely to be on, or being neither more likely to be on nor off for any reason), then why is avoiding voting Vi a point in favor of CES-scum?

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, in post 1090, you indicate suspicion of Toasty and UT as the remaining scum team, but it's not clear to me why you are pushing UT/Reck over Toasty. In fact, looking over your iso, you have been wavering back and forth between suspecting Toasty and not suspecting him, but you never actually vote him or take a firm position on him. Your reasoning for suspecting both of them in 1090 suggests to me that Toasty should be higher on your suspect list, but for some reason, UT, who you claimed to have a town read on, suddenly becomes your top scum pick based on a single post that you refer to as just "kinda scummy". I want you to explain your opinion on both of them please.

Toasty has been heavily pressured and has even already claimed. No use voting him unless I'm ready for a lynch. If toasty is scum, he's not the last scum. Reck is a new face replacing someone we hadn't heard from in a while. His entrance basically ammounted to "lol wat is going in in dis thread lollol". I thought some pressure might help me better read his player slot. Didn't really work because I didn't effectively apply any pressure. Part poor case, part no one else playing along.

Reck, why did you iso toasty? Did you iso anyone else? You said you randomly chose toasty, but I wonder how you can be sure enough he's scum to vote him having only really read him and no one else.

Because UT just flaked. You can't vote for someone when you're not in the game.

CES actively avoided the wagon by hopping on both other possible wagons.

If you are going to say one scum is off the wagon, UT is not a pick.

I'm just confused, because you just got done telling me my one on one off theory was crap because vi-lynch was inevitable and scum would bus the hell out of him. Then you tell me CES is scummy because he didn't vote vi.

Further, if scum really were likely to all bus vi, then UT is still a scum candidate specifically because he wasn't around to hop on vi's wagon.

So which is it? You're the confirmed town guy who wants to tell everyone how it is. Well then, make up your mind and tell me how it is.

[Rhinox]

That's going to get annoying really quick...

OK, well fine then, how's this for enlightening {toasty, AT, CES, Reck} - I'm calling all remaining scum in this group. 3 out of the 4 I don't know how to question due to

lurking

inactivity or unreadability. The 4th has been grilled to charbroiled.

I'm not interested in voting jahudo, because he's prob-town. I can't see a case for Kdubscum. You're apparently

god

town, as is LLD for reasons I can't remember - something to do with nacho and UK iirc. I could humor a case there if anybody has one.

I can either vote toasty and wait for the game to end, or throw stones at my other 3 lynch preferences for fun to see if anything happens. Or wait for someone else to come up with something better.

[Rhinox]

Limited access until tomorrow evening

[Rhinox]

I'm back and missed like nothing. This game seems to have ground to a halt.

Anti - can you clarify this for me?

Page 46: @Rhinox: not to mention the only comment on Grey vs. Vi was that it was "painful."
lol @ the fail trying to justify the proposed bounty lynch, too

unvote, vote toasty

[Rhinox]

It basically

says townie

, then my bounty power in brackets

Balls. That's exactly what mine says too.

I was seeing who would say what about it. It's what Rhinox has been stuck on since early day 2.

Opinions, everyone? Mine is that motivators are a weak town power, unbelievably godly scum power. I'm leaning towards toast-town honestly.

Cool. I don't.

I have flavor name, [bounty reward]

You have no idea how much I loathe you right now greyICE... why even bother bringing this back up reminding me why I still want to believe you're lying scum when I was trying to put it behind me.

I mean so what, all of a sudden you don't want to lynch toasty because you know its going to say townie in his flip and you claimed to be townie with no townie in your role PM, and be outed as lying scum? Toasty's full claim has been out there for a while now, why are you so interested in opinions on it now?

*gets out my tinfoil hat* this is definitely a conspiracy against me.

/pathetic reference to marathon day.

[Rhinox]

I'm just gonna sit here and sip the kool aid. mmmmm tasty

[Rhinox]

AT, do you plan to do anything to actually push your cases on Kdub and Reck and prevent toasty's lynch because he's so town according to you, or are you just going to throw a half-assed vote out on reck and sit back watching toasty get lynched anyways?

[Rhinox]

So what exactly is it that everyone is waiting for at the moment anyways?

AT: Reck + who? Kdub?

[Rhinox]

In the meantime, everyone else:

Deadline: Thursday, April 7th.

Thats tomorrow. Its either toasty, or someone else. And I'm not hearing a lot of talk about lynching someone else.

AT - reck still scum given the replace out request?

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Toasty, any last words? Who should we lynch if not you?

[Rhinox]

Yeah, is there any reason otherwise?
None of my argument was even about activity level, so I'm not sure why you're even asking this....

Reck replacing out tells me he didn't ever get into the game so I was wondering if you consider the points against him specifically were still valid.


@toasty: so, you are of the belief that CES and Reck/UT are the remaining scum, with LLD as the 3rd option, and I guess me as the 4th since you left me out of your post entirely and everyone else you think is town? Just want to make sure I understand your position.

[Rhinox]

Maybe I've been sipping too much of the kool aid, but I've been getting a funny feeling about jahudo's last bunch of posts - like they don't seem like normal town jahudo. For one, he is not methodically questioning people trying to figure out who is scum like town jahudo does. He is more concerned with providing defenses of himself. There is a certain edge to his posts - maybe its snark or sarcasm, but it is not usually in jahudo's play. He's usually more cool and logical. He's spending an unusual amount of words refuting CES. On one hand, CES is his biggest critic, but on the other up until very recently it seemed jahudo was all but given a pass for the day, so this back and forth banter with CES seems suspiciously out of place. Not to mention, he's gone point by point with CES for a couple posts now, but he chooses to respond to greyICE with nothing but <3.

So logically jahudo's miller claim does not make sense for jahudo scum, but I've been getting this weird vibe. And I agree with ICE's recent description of toasty, but I couldn't convince myself of a better target in {AT, UT/Reck, Kdub, LLD}, and I was sort of giving CES and Jahudo a pass. All of a sudden I'm getting this funny feeling that this back and forth between jahudo and CES seems kinda artificial, maybe they're both scum?

unvote

to prevent a toasty hammer tonight. I'll think about it and put a vote back on tomorrow before deadline. I might be able to convince myself of a jahudo lynch. I want to read through his iso first though.

[Rhinox]

Sup

reck

AGM

, I’ll summarize for you:

Day 1
GreyICE: I’m a 1 shot cop that finds Red Dragons as scum.
Vi: I also have role information that Red Dragons are scum [/softclaim]
Seraphim: No, I’m Red Dragon and I’m a townie.
Jahudo: You guys are reading into this too much, my role PM has flavor that might not be reliable.
Everyone: Let’s lynch Seraphim because he was already acting weird.
Vi: Oh, also I’m a miller because I used to be Red Dragon.
Jahudo: Counter-claim. I am a miller and there’s no mention of Red Dragon.
Seraphim: Ok, I am actually a third party lyncher but I am not mafia!
Jahudo: Hammers Seraphim, who flips third party lyncher.

Day 2
Everyone: Lets lynch either Vi or Jahudo obvs.
Jahudo: Hammers Vi, who flips mafia and Seraphim's lyncher target.

Nothing's really changed, this summary is accurate, more or less.

[Rhinox]

GREYICE TELL ME WHO TO VOTE I'M SO LOST NOW!

Jahudo miller claim seems more likely town than scum.
Toasty seems scummy but claim and recent posts maybe seem more town.
CES is playing to be unreadable but comes out of the woodwork to go apeshit on jahudo doesn't seem to make sense if CES-scum/Jahudo-town.

OMG WHAT IF NONE OF THEM ARE SCUM?

[Rhinox]

Do you see a Jahudo/CES scum pair making sense in any way or am I completely out of my mind again?

[Rhinox]

I'm here who am I voting?

[Rhinox]

Actually, can we lynch Rhinox?

If I assume that Toasty is town due to this unvote thing...

I think Rhinox is scum.

How bout we lynch you. You post nothiing all day because you have nothing else to say. And now you decide you think I'm scum?

[Rhinox]

I'm voting toasty or ces. You guys decide.

[Rhinox]

But I don't think jahdo is scum........

[Rhinox]

Ps I'm on my cell while repairing my xbox, so thatts why my responses are delayed. Oh, and I'm a lil buzzed right now too

[Rhinox]

LLD, I don't like that greyICE vote. And I don't like your jahudo vote yesterday. Take a look at this string of posts:

Content with a toasty lynch:

@Bolded: I have nothing else to say. I got the information I needed out of today (Kdub reaction and Jahudo posts) and I'm content with lynching you [toasty] as likely scum with Vi.

Coming up with a plausible reason jahudo is not scum:

If Jahudo is scum, why didn't he hammer Toasty? He could of easily hammered Toasty over the past few days and not incurred much suspicion.

Rage at CES:

I fucking wanted CES dead.

But Nooooooooooo.... UK told me it was just CES being CES.

Dx

WTF now you're ok with a jahudo lynch? WHY?

damn it, if we get two more in here in the next hour we could wagon hop to Jahudo, I'm pretty sure Toasty thought he had been hammered (which... I thought I hammered him, so...)

You assume that, but he could be more observant than we are. >.>

But I'm willing to do a Jahudo lynch.

Do we have enough people?

And not wanting to go back to lynching toasty (who you were content with lynching all day) or CES (who you hate with the power of 1000 suns), so you are now INSISTING on a jahudo lynch.

I'm voting toasty or ces. You guys decide.

NOPE!

YOU'RE VOTING JAHUDO.

And now today you abandon previous suspicions of CES or toasty even though jahudo flipped town to go after ICE for still being alive? Thats very weak. [sarcasm, sort of]Everyone has been calling you obvtown all game more than AT anyways and you're still here while AT is dead ZOMG[/sarcasm]

This needs 'splainin'

[Rhinox]

NO MOM AND DAD STOP FIGHTING!

I really don't buy the grey is scum because he is alive argument. And that is ironic given my previous stances on ICE throughout the game. And also because I can imagine scum sitting in the quicktopic going "herp derp rhino is so tunneled on ice i bet we can leave him alive and rhino will help us lynch him!"

[Rhinox]

What I want to know though is what makes ICE unconfirmed just cuz he's still alive? I mean, I thought it was like lock tight role info that I wasn't allowed to question on D2, and now he lives another day and all of a sudden now its ok for that to be ignored?

[Rhinox]

@LLD: another thing to consider... If greyICE is scum, why does he kill AT and not you? At the end of D3 you did ask, "Why are you confirmed town again?" And as you yourself point out, AT has been pretty much a non-entity all game. But everyone has been calling you and him pretty much the same amount of town, so in this situation of the 2, greyscum would rather NK the one more likely to turn on him I think.

So why AT? Look who he had a case for... Reck/AGM. ICE was loving him some AGM yesterday. LLD was mostly out of the picture for 90% of the day. If anyone had motive to kill AT over ICE, it was AGM. Get rid of the immediate threat, ICE was not looking in his direction, so could be spared another day.

Vote:AGM

nk analysis FTW

[Rhinox]

I'm

Victoria Terpsichore “VT”-Townie [Busdriver]

flavor for VT part - something about being VT in name and in role. Wanting to live in peace making money but having a soft spot for bounty hunters.

Busdriver reward I send 2 targets, they [flavor]have their spots switched in space[/flavor]. Any action targeting player A resolves on Player B and vice versa. I would be seen as targetting both of my targets.

LLD next

and greyICE should probably do a full claim with flavor at this point as well.

[Rhinox]

CES: Thoughts on the mass claim?

[Rhinox]

Alisa-Townie [One-shot Hider]

Question: did your role PM use this format? Because I'm having trouble imagining how you'd mistake that for one-shot hider.

Yes. And the answer was I skimmed it and never opened it again until Fate corrected me N1.

@LLD: Nope. Could make you a scum enabler. Or your ability does nothing and the mod just fucked with us but good

Actually the person whose ability worries me the most in terms of game balance is kdub. But it'll take a second to go there.

I'm wondering if CES has a role that exists to balance Kdub.

uh... ICE? Didn't we already have this discussion D2, where you said you didn't have townie in your role PM?

p-edit yeah, what CES said.

[Rhinox]

greyICE, what was the purpose of saying you didn't have a normal role on both Day 1 and Day 2 then?

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, any opinion on CES's claim?

The mechanics are weird, but not as weird as originally made out to be. I don't think that in itself is enough to disbelieve it.

for example...

It seems like a very contrived ability to me. You are a neighborizer...but you have no choice who to neighborize? You have to activate it, even though you have no choice who your target is? Why not just skip all the unnecessary mechanics and just say "your bounty reward is to become neighbors with the player who is character X"?

...the reward has to be neighbor

izer

because faye does not know he will become a neighbor. The role turns faye into a neighbor, thus the -izer, whether or not he has a choice of target. Forcing him to activate it also fits with -izer, because it can be blocked, tracked, watched, etc, or he can choose not to do it for whatever reason. If it was watered down to "your bounty reward is to become neighbors with the player who is character X", then Faye would have to have the same reward, or have a hidden reward (bastard modding?)

As for grey's objections, unless there is a specific mod-notice against it, then breaking annonymity can be a feature, not a bug - That is, faye/whitney having the option to reveal their mafiascum.net usernames, or not.

As for the ability actually confirming each other as town due to names, I don't see that as the case. We already pretty much established scum have an actual role name and a fake claim name thanks to Vi. It is my guess that bounties use the fake name when the target is scum, given that we haven't seen an obvscum name bounty target. Otherwise, scum bounty target comes up, every previous bounty target is confirmed town. It only makes sense that whitney or faye could be a scum safe claim.

Additionally sort of as an aside, I think every theme game I've been in as scum has had a collective scum role something to the effect of "once per cycle, give me a role and I'll write a full flavor PM to go with it." I'd expect that in there for the scum as well.


So, I don't immediately jump to the conclusion that CES's claim in BS based on the reasons given.

[Rhinox]

What's the scum motive for counterclaiming my scumbuddy there?

You wanna go there? What was the scum motive for Jahudo-hyposcum counterclaiming Vi-scum possibility that you were pushing?

[Rhinox]

Since the player needs to be on the lynch wagon to get their reward, it wouldn't quite be a "hidden reward" the way you are putting it.

What I mean is that if you are not a neighbor and don't know you will become a neighbor, then the role that makes you a neighbor is by definition a neighbor

izer

regardless of if they get to choose who to neighborize or not. If CES's role was just "become a neighbor with...", then what is the mechanic making you the neighbor if not a neighborizer? A bounty reward? A hidden mechanic?

I had forgotten that Vi had fakeclaimed Julia, but this again raises the problem that CES says that his ability is unambiguous in saying that he will specifically neighborize Faye. Either the possibility exists that the player in question (me, in this case) is not Faye, which would be a direct lie from the mod to the player, or the ability confirms my role, which either defeats the whole purpose of "neighborizer" instead of "masonizer", or suggests that Faye is scum in this game, which is not supported by either flavor or the flips we have seen so far.

What would you expect if his role said he could neighborize Julia? Hint: It is my understanding he would neighborize with Vi, because that is Vi's fake claim, who she would claim to be, and that is not lying or bastard modding. Its fairly straightforeward, actually. Or perhaps Whitney is CES's fake claim, and faye really is town? Either way, its neither bastard modding nor masonizing.

My basic objection with it is that there are too many little issues with the claim that each individually require an ad hoc justification, and it adds up either to a role that mechanically is extremely contrived (in contrast to everybody else's relatively straightforward claims so far), or scum making a bad fakeclaim. Remember, we ended up lynching Seraphim because he claimed a mechanic that would have indicated poor setup design if true. He wasn't mafia, but he was certainly lying about his ability. I'm feeling the same thing here with CES. His sudden push on Grey just cements my opinion.

Seraph may or may not have been telling us the whole truth at the end. But there is different between a mechanic that is poor setup design, and CES's claimed mechanic, which IMO does not seem to be poor setup design.

P.S. Tell me whats straightforward about these roles and their mechanics: Ex-Lover Bodyguard, Red Dragon Clan Enforcer, Shaman Astrologer, Lucky Bounty Hunter


Just saying CES may be scum. But his claimed role does not seem like the justification to be used for his lynch.

[Rhinox]

Bad hammer is, most definitely, bad. I didn't realize it was the hammer until CES just pointed it out... >.>

[Rhinox]

And if CES flips town?

[Rhinox]

Wait, actually, why the hell should he block toasty anyways? Why not Kdub, LLD, or Me, who are your less town reads thus mosre likely IYO to be submitting a kill?

[Rhinox]

I think I see where this is going. AGM vs...

P.S. probably MYLO.

[Rhinox]

Vote: No Lynch

Even if I'm 100% certain of scum at this point, there is no need taking senseless risks.

If it is what we're all thinking it is, a no lynch won't improve our odds of lynching correctly. It'll be 50/50, with the only difference being 1 less town voice to weigh in on the decision if we no lynch and town dies.

I'll wait to hear what AGM has to say first.

[Rhinox]

This is going to be a long day...

[Rhinox]

They're both scum.

[Rhinox]

I'm frustrated, because I already wanted to lynch GI and AGM earlier in the game and got no town support and in fact many town players spent a good deal telling me how shitty my cases were and convinced me I was wrong. I drank the coolaid. How am I supposed to undrink it to possibly believe a AGM GI scum team? HOW?

[Rhinox]

Whatever, I will tell you this. It ain't you and AGM, because if this is a double bus, you are both fucking gods of acting.

thats the first thing I thought it was... >.>

[Rhinox]

Toasty did you miss the part where I said we're no no lynching?

[Rhinox]

*not

[Rhinox]

So, 4 scenarios, which is more likely?

1)

Scum no killed to town-AGM would block a townie and initiate a 1v1 where both options = scum win.

- I didn't even consider this until the second time GI pointed this out. The first time he said it, I thought he was talking about scenario 2. I don't think this is very likely. There was a 33% chance assuming random that AGM would target 1 of the 2 scum anyways nullifying this scum gambit vs. a 16.7% chance that AGM would target the scum committing a kill if scum just went ahead and tried to kill.

The only way this even makes sense as a scenario is if GI is scum and another non-GI nk was performed, which would make us further question why GI has not been killed yet. But then as GI has pointed out, we're all ignoring this scenario, why would scum GI bring it to our attention? He wouldn't...

tl;dr: What this boils down to is that scum are twice as likely to get lynched by no killing if AGM is town vs. making a nk.

2)

Scum no killed and scum-AGM is setting up town-LLD for the mislynch

- possible, but... If we assume the alternative to this is making a kill, lets see how it works out.

a) Assuming no kill scum AGM, there is a 50% chance of lynching scum today and a 50% chance of lynching town for the scum win.
b) Assuming AGM is scum and scum kill normally, there would be only a 40% chance of lynching scum today, and a 60% chance of mislynching a townie (only takes 1 wrong vote).

Where this falls apart for me is that LLD is arguing that there is no risk in (a) because even if LLD is lynched, then GI can manipulate the town for a scum win tomorrow. But that is also true with (b) with a still alive GI. So the fact of the matter is that if scum is GI and AGM and they are working on the assumption that GI can win as lone scum, then there is absolutely no sense in taking the risk to swing for the fence with (a) when (b) is less risky and leads to the same outcome. Or more simply, there may be little risk with (a), but there is even less with (b).

There is also the consideration that, if scum wanted to pull this gambit, there was a better town target to pull it on: me. Assuming GI/AGM scum team as LLD is saying, Kdub and toasty would be easily convinced of me being scum. LLD probably would too. It wouldn't be a big surprise to anyone if I were scum. I'd have got steamrolled.

tl;dr: possible due to wifom, but not the most optimal scum play.

3)

Scum LLD tried to kill, but town AGM blocked her

- probable, because the least risky play for scum is to make a kill today, especially if its LLD/Kdub, maybe even LLD/Toasty. LLD/ICE not likely IMO. No reason to do anything other than make the kill and hope the 16.7% chance of AGM blocking the kill doesn't happen.

4)

both AGM and LLD are scum

- give up one of themselves for the exchange of making the other "confirmed town" and unlynchable in LyLo tomorrow. The fact that others have been quick to dismiss it as a possibility makes it plausible, but I forgot about their claim anti-synergy from mass claim. I guess they probably wouldn't have claimed roles like that during mass claim if they were both scum.

------------------------

What wierd about this is that it came before AGM, almost as if you were completely ready for it. Did you expect them to go after you?

This was actually one of my first thoughts as well, but I questioned the validity of the accusation. Reason is, both me and GI also saw what was coming (though not the target) and made a post that could have been interpretted the same way had GI claimed to block one of us. Only difference is, LLD did a lot of crazy things before AGM even showed up.

First, there is the noted hostility that really does make me think she knew she was the one blocked.

Then there was the "tempted to lynch AGM or GI on the spot" comment - why would she say that if she didn't know she was the one blocked. Certainly, if she were town, she would have considered the possibility that AGM blocked me, or kdub, and that the lynch would be AGM or [target which is not GI]. And then she would have spent some time considering, not immediately maintain her belief that AGM and GI is scum.

And finally, there is the no lynch suggestion. It doesn't take a genius to see why a no lynch only helps scum when its a 1v1 by eliminating a town voice on the conversation, which a no lynch would do. It would still be AGM vs. LLD tomorrow. But today, town has a 66% influence (4 out of 6) where as after a no lynch and a nk, town would have a smaller 60% influence (3 out of 5). It is possible that "NO LYNCH ITS MYLO" is a very deeply ingrained policy that nobody stops to consider if it really is the best thing to do anymore, but I just get the feeling from this game that LLD should have known better.

-----------------

Overall tl;dr

- right now, I'm leaning towards LLD scum.

[Rhinox]

^^^ from my POV, I'm not scum, and you wouldn't have been the one bringing it to our attention if you were scum, so I would have to believe the scum are kdub and toasty for this to be possible.

And if the scum are kdub and toasty, they weren't getting lynched today anyways even if they made a kill last night, therefore this strategy would be kinda pointless with the risk that AGM was twice as likely to target "1 OR the other" of them rather than just the one who submitted the kill.

Not to mention, I didn't see any other realistic RB target for a town RB AGM other than me or kdub, considering CES town and his vocal opinion of LLD town.

[Rhinox]

I don't follow what makes you a better RB choice than Me or Kdub assuming AGMtown. If I understand, you're saying you were the obvious RB choice, and thus would not have sent in the kill, and thus AGM is lying. I don't see that being the case.

I am and have been much more suspected and am much more lynchable than you. I don't see any way you can claim otherwise. Nearly everyone has been calling you town all game, and no one was clammoring to vote you despite your attack on GI yesterday. I will also point out that while you were messing around trying to lynch GI yesterday, I was the one who was actually voting AGM - why wouldn't AGM have assumed I would be a guaranteed vote on him as well/rather than you. Meanwhile, everyone alive right now has been ok with my lynch at one point or another, and the only player who currently thinks I'm townish is GI.

[Rhinox]

V/LA for the holiday weekend

[Rhinox]

GI, I made this post back on Day 2. Ironically, you did not answer it because it was LLD who was making excuses for you. There are 4 points in here:

/already voting grey

I asked about flavor because:

Anyway, I'm Alisa, Jet's old Girlfriend. I'm the "one that got away."

I have a 1-shot investigate,

due to contacts through the bar I own.

It will find members of the red dragon clan.

I have no bounty power. Most likely because I'm not a bounty hunter. Since the Red Dragon clan are not bounty hunters either it seems highly likely that bounties grant powers to town and town alone. Which is the reason I consider LLD cleared. Completely worthless past this point, but there you are.

It's a decent power, but not overwhelming, which is why I don't have a real problem claiming it. They can shoot me to off one cop investigation, or just cross their fingers and hope it misses. I'm using it tonight in any case, after which I will be vanilla.

1: he gave flavor when he claimed his one shot investigate that makes sense if he's a cop but not a hider. Or was that just made up flavor?

When we all thought seraph was miller:

...

Fucking goddamn it. Every way I wrap my head around it, this doesn't even make sense.

There is NO reason for a 1-shot investigate to come in a town with a miller. It's like 'haha, your already mediocre power is crappier.

2: Why would greyICE flip out and make a comment like this knowing he's a hider and not a cop?

3: When Vi gave her bounty reward, why didn't greyICE CC then instead of letting seraph get lynched and then CCing first thing today?

Had the night to get a story straight with his scum partners that they thought made sense?

And finally...

Well I was going to hide behind you [toasty].

But then Fate told me it was a bounty power.

Actually he was a bit more sardonic than that, but I suppose I deserved it.

4: Why would a hider attempt to hide behind one of his top scum suspects? He would be dead, and no way for us to know who he hid behind. Hiders can clear town, not confirm scum, except in situations which we were not in.

So there are way too many contradictions here. What I am missing? why is greyICE NOT scum?

You only answered to #3, and then accused me of rolefishing and threw some WIFOM at me in this post. You can forget about #1, what I really want to hear are your explainations for #2 and #4 that I never got.

Where was this when I was

getting bussed

?

lolscumslip?

[Rhinox]

@GI:

I was leaning towards voting LLD but now I'm not so sure. I'm definitely not rushing it.

#2 - When did you ask Fate via PM if you died if you hid behind a miller?

#4 - What I was saying was, I don't think we would have been able to deduce who you hid behind based on your posts from D1. So it wouldn't have been a 1 for 1 because you'd have been dead with no way for us to be able to figure out why. Try again?

[Rhinox]

Well that convinced me.

vote: AGM

GI tomorrow.

[Rhinox]

Not only did you not answer my question and go on to RAGE ATTACK MODE to deflect from what must obviously be a good point,

BUT

HOLY FUCK MY "DON'T TELEGRAPH YOUR

INVESTIGATE

WAS WHEN WE ALL THOUGHT YOU WERE A FUCKING COP NOT A GODDAMN HIDER

you just fucked up GI.

[Rhinox]

From D2:

@Rhinox: If you look at GreyICE's crumbing near the end of D1, it would be reasonable to conclude that he was going to hide behind me (or Vi). The whole "oops" moment that GreyICE seems to be playing is a pain in the ass, but it doesn't mean he isn't telling the truth. I think its best to trust UK, who a majority of us had on town lists throughout the game.

You can through jahudo on that list of breadcrumbs too if you want to call them that. That still doesn't change the fact that his scum suspects are not ideal N1 hider suspects, because had he shown up dead this morning, we wouldn't know if it was because he hid behind one of his 3 suspects, the nk (uk in this place), was a nk himself, or he hid behind someone entirely different trying to clear a townie.

I've been pretty consistent with this. I thought about this day 2. You don't refute this until now, when you're trying to say I'm scum?

yeah no.

[Rhinox]

#2 - When did you ask Fate via PM if you died if you hid behind a miller?

answer now.

[Rhinox]

So day 1 then?

On day 2 we had that discussion about how you knew the red dragon clan was scum. Your response was that your PM said you died if you hid behind the red dragon clan. Jahudo was a miller who did not flip red dragon clan. Thus, from your claims D2, we should deduce that you would not die if you hid behind a miller.


I don't care if you always aim for scum as 1-shot hider - it wasn't clear who you would have been targeting, thus we would have been without that information.

You can adhom me all you want, but if you are town, then you're just as fucking bad as I am and I revert back to my response to you at the beginning of day 3:

go f yourself.

[Rhinox]

I have a 1-shot investigate, due to contacts through the bar I own. It will find members of the red dragon clan.

I HAVE CONFIRMATION
THAT RED DRAGON CLAN ARE SCUM FACTION

what is this confirmation and when did you get it?

PEDIT: IT IS IN MY ROLE PM WHEN I FUCKING CLAIMED IT GODDAMN IT. WHAT THE FUCK? I ASKED PAGES AGO IF ANY OTHER TOWN RDC WANTED TO STEP FORWARD. NONE DID.

IT. IS. NOT. A. FLAVOR. INVESTIGATION.

IT INVESTIGATES ALIGNMENT

Pretty clear here...

all of it says that you would not die if you hid behind a miller. A miller is still town aligned.

[Rhinox]

I understood the mechanic, I thought I had a power and no reward.

ok. I mean, this is pretty much all I needed to hear. I'm failrly certain you're lying scum and UK's role information is unreliable. I'll confirm how I know in a big reveal later. Unless there is a certain assumption I've got wrong, but we can confirm that after my big reveal fairly easily.

In the mean time, tell me a little more about this claimed hider reward - it specifically says if you hide behind scum, you die?

It's a hider mechanic.

If I hide behind Red Dragon clan, they kill me.

Do I have to get a wiki out for you?

Ah this is the one I was looking for. damn 69 page thread to search through.

condescending tone and all.

game over.

[Rhinox]

From D2:

@Rhinox: If you look at GreyICE's crumbing near the end of D1, it would be reasonable to conclude that he was going to hide behind

me (or Vi)

. The whole "oops" moment that GreyICE seems to be playing is a pain in the ass, but it doesn't mean he isn't telling the truth. I think its best to trust UK, who a majority of us had on town lists throughout the game.

You can

through jahudo on that list of breadcrumbs too

if you want to call them that. That still doesn't change the fact that his scum suspects are not ideal N1 hider suspects, because had he shown up dead this morning, we wouldn't know if it was because he hid behind one of his 3 suspects, the nk (uk in this place), was a nk himself, or he hid behind someone entirely different trying to clear a townie.

I've been pretty consistent with this. I thought about this day 2.

You don't refute this until now, when you're trying to say I'm scum?

yeah no.

^^^ I said that on D2. Obviously I found those 3 breadcrumbs.

So rewind, *boom* your dead D2 and flip 1-shot hider. Which of those 3 were we supposed to think you hid behind and thus is scum?

Oh wait, you hid behind jahudo who was a miller, and the other 2 were town. Ooops there's 3 mislynches.

See my point? On day 2, we'd have had no idea...


I forgot about the whole you waiting for a PM from fate thing. ugh, why couldn't you just give me a straight foreward answer when I asked instead of being a raging dick about it.

Why didn't you say anything about dying if you hid behind a miller before today? Why did you say on D2: "If I hide behind Red Dragon clan, they kill me." if you would have died if you hid behind jahudo who was NOT RDC and not scum?

Back to this:

#2 is actually worse than you think. Hiding behind a Miller would KILL ME. So there was no way a third of the game would have been players who kill me if I hide behind them. I'm surprised there was even one.

2: Why would greyICE flip out and make a comment like this knowing he's a hider and not a cop?

...

Fucking goddamn it. Every way I wrap my head around it, this doesn't even make sense. There is NO reason for a 1-shot investigate to come in a town with a miller. It's like 'haha, your already mediocre power is crappier.

So, you say your reaction in your iso #70 is justified because you die if you hide behind a miller...

but...

@GI: Are you claiming that you specifically get alignment through RDC flavor, as in it specifically says such? Or are you conjecturing because "Fate wouldn't put in a useless one shot cop"?

They're scum. Oh yes.

Vi is scum, vote Vi.

CES made first useful contribution of game by agreeing with me. Should do it more, would make him much less scummy.

Waiting for a PM from Fate.

You didn't say you were waiting for a PM from fate until your iso #120.

So back to my original point...

1. you claim 1-shot cop.
2. you think seraph might be a miller
3. you rage at mod about how crappy a 1-shot cop is with a miller (doesn't make sense because you are actually a hider and not a cop, and you didn't PM fate yet to see if you die if you hide behind a miller)
4. Some time later you PM fate about something but never tell us what.

What would you think if you were in my shoes?

[Rhinox]

GreyICE, its a lot of inconsistencies from the start that makes it seem like you're lying about your role. And if you're lying about your role, you're scum.

When I give you opportunities to explain the inconsistencies, you deflect EVERY TIME.

You think I came out trying to force a mislynch on you? Not even close. You have no idea, how close I was to voting LLD. Just wanted to tie up those couple loose ends from D2 now that the rest of the town was sane enough to let you answer. All I wanted was a believeable explaination, something so if in post game I was sitting there after losing to you I'd wouldn't be regretting never getting those answers.

Your answers led to more inconsistencies and when I try to get further clarification you go into rage mode and say I'm scum for stupid reasons rather than just answering the fucking questions.

I can't believe I was right about you on D2 and AGM/Reck later on, and yet still be alive. But I can imagine you in the QT claiming to be able to manipulate me to your will. And today I bet you were thinking I KNOW I'LL JUST RAGE IN ALL CAPS AND CALL RHINOX SCUM AND AN IDIOT AND HE'LL BACK OFF JUST LIKE BEFORE.

And maybe I'm completely wrong and I am a horrible player just like you say but you know what? I don't fucking care. If we're both town, you're every bit as much to blame as I am. I'm at the point right now where I'd rather lose to LLD than to you.

I've placed my MyLo vote. My decision is pretty much final. Pretty much up to Toasty and Kdub to decide.

[Rhinox]

I'm still waiting to hear from AGM before I make my decision. His vanishing act is not making my gut feel any better about him, that's for sure.

Well that convinced me.

vote: AGM

GI tomorrow.

What exactly about Grey's post convinced you? He pointed out an apparent contradiction, said it made you look like scum, and... well that's really about it. How does that tell you whether AGM is scum?

If GI is scum, he has to be scum with AGM, not LLD.

The contradiction that he thought he found wasn't a contradiction at all, but he latched onto with so much certainty that it seemed like scum trying to strong arm me into backing down rather than town who really thought I was scum. It didn't seem like town would jump to the conclusion he did so quicky, seemed more like scum who got nervous I might be changing my mind about voting LLD.

Thats the general answer. too frustrated to rehash the specifics right now. Scum is either AGM+GI or LLD+Kdub/toasty. I will only vote for AGM or LLD today.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, answer #1727.

1) Maybe, but it has not been proven that you are a cop OR a hider. I could see this as something that you would do as scum or town.

2) You breadcrumbed 3 targets and left us no way to deduce which of the 3 was actually your target if you were dead D2, as I have repeadedly explained. Its an irrefutable fact. I'm not saying this means you're scum, it could very well be a disagreement in theory and bad crumbing coupled with the quick hammer. The fact that you refuse to accept my statement as valid and somehow use it to say I'm scum is never going to make me think you're telling the truth.

3) Irrelevant, mostly. Why did you wait until today to explain the dying behind a miller thing, once I asked you to justify your response to finding out there was a miller early in the game? You still haven't explained how your reaction to finding out there is a miller in the game makes any sense given that you didn't yet know you would die if you hid behind a miller - you didn't ask fate about it until you yourself made 50 posts later.

4) Irrelevant, mostly. Except for the fact that you left out the dying if you hid behind a miller until just today.

5) I don't know. Maybe scum have day talk? Maybe a bunch of possible, plausible, or implausible things. From my POV, I think Vi's miller gambit was an insane theory, yet it was true. As far as I'm concerned, all bets are off with this game. Anything is possible.

You say there is no reason to switch your claim from cop to hider, but I don't immediately see a reason not to either.

Of these points, #3 is the one I'm most concerned with, and its also the one you've never given me a straight answer about.

I am frustrated. I am frustrated that you don't even read your own posts.

Quote"

I am frustrated that your theory requires outlandish garbage that you don't even want to address.

huh?

I am frustrated you think Toasty was in any way sincere in that post

I didn't even address toasty's post? By the way I thought toasty was town for his reaction to being hammered?

(put that post under 1/10th the scrutiny that you put everything I say in this thread - how does it hold up?). I am frustrated and maddened by the fact that despite the fact you want to lynch AGM or LLD you are only interested in poking me.

so, what were all my other posts today directed at LLD then?

And why? If I'm scum, and AGM is town, you know how easy it is for me to lynch him if he hits L-1? Unvote/Vote. That's it. As scum, my vote being on LLD early would give me a good position for tomorrow if I'm bussing, and does exactly nothing to stop me from switching to AGM if we'd need to hammer.

Speaking of outlandish garbage....

See I do know you, and I know you make much, much more effort to understand people than this.

Assume:

rhinox believes that LLD or AGM is the lynch.

If

: I am scum

Then

my posts do not accurately indicate who my buddy is, since I would be attempting to obscure exactly that.

If:

I am town

Then

I may still be wrong.

Therefore:

it is crazy for town-Rhinox to spend more time on me than both of you.

I don't see you as scum being possible with anyone other than AGM. Because I see one of AGM and LLD being scum a certainty. And I see you and LLD being scum an impossibility. So if you are scum, you are scum with AGM.

I have questioned LLD. I may not be done yet. I'm questioning you now. I don't have anything to question AGM about. I can either believe his claims or not. There is nothing to reexamine from earlier in the game.

The above logic you posted is garbage.


I believe I have some valid points against you, points that you do not want to address. I believe the town response would be to accept my valid points and try to argue I'm coming to the wrong conclusion as an honest misunderstanding, rather than trying to prove my valid points are invalid, deflect, call me scum, rage, and ad hom. You won't strongarm me into backing down at this point. The more you try, the stronger my belief becomes.

You think I have some sort of an agenda against you, but you're either scum or you're horribly misreading me. All I wanted to do was tie up a couple loose ends before placing a vote on LLD. Then I come back to the thread and find 5 multiposts of hate and rage directed at me and no answers to my questions. I expect town would try to understand my concerns before raging. You either clearly can't comprhend anything I'm saying and are unwilling to even try at this point, or you're scum.

[Rhinox]

I SWEAR TO GOD IF YOU ARE SCUM GI

[Rhinox]

THEN I AM GOING TO BREAK SOME SHIT

[Rhinox]

UNVOTE

[Rhinox]

All you do is whine and whine and whine. I don't even have a fucking clue anymore whether its scumplaining or just one of the worst town performances I have ever seen.

And if you don't like me insulting you, I don't like the fact you suck. So we're even.

I don't care if you insult me personally. I care if you do it rather than respond to me in a genuine manner. As you said, I don't know if you really think you're the shit, or if you're scum manipulating the hell out of us. Lets just say I wouldn't exactly be nominating you for paragon of scum hunters scummy for this game either, so the feeling is mutual.

3)

My reaction was MAINLY to TWO DIFFERENT people claiming Miller in response to a FUCKING COP CLAIM.

If you don't think that's scummy as fucking hell, then I have news for you. Actually, what about Vi's reaction to my cop claim made you think "oh, Vi's scumbuddy just claimed cop, Vi will come forward with the miller gambit now!"

your reaction, post #637
vi claims miller, post #790
Jahudo claims miller later.

WHEN YOU REACTED, YOU ONLY SUSPECTED SERAPH AS A MILLER, VI AND JAHUDO HADN'T CLAIMED YET. FOR FUCK SAKE AND YOU'RE SAYING I'M THE ONE NOT READING MY OWN POSTS.

THIS IS THE SHIT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

THIS IS WHY YOU'RE MAKING THIS GAME HELL FOR ME.

YOU SAY I'M PLAYING LIKE CRAP, AND THEN YOU DO SHIT LIKE THIS AND I'M THE CRAZY ONE?

[Rhinox]

oh this game is awake.

I was like NO FFFUUUUUU when deadline hit yesterday. I don't plan on letting it get that far today. All the discussion was basically had yesterday. I'm going to vote LLD and I'm going to do it soon.

It is now 100% confirmed that LLD/AGM are not town/town, or GI and kdub would have hammered one of them by now.

So, LLD scum - only possible partner is kdub IMO, since everyone is so sure they're not scum-scum and I'm p. sure she is not scum with GI.
AGM scum - Could be scum with either GI or kdub I guess. LLD has been pushing the AGM+GI theory so hard I've sort of been lulled into that being the only possibility if AGM is scum - but this doesn't really matter because we're about to lose of AGM is scum when I vote LLD.

I'm not going to think too hard about the nk since its dripping with wifom, only to say that assuming LLD scum, I guess her and Kdub are thinking it'd be easier to get me lynched tomorrow than toasty.

I'm assuming kdub will no-kill tonight for obvious reasons. AGM should announce which of me or kdub he will block to ensure there is a no kill, and I'll wait to vote until he does it.

[Rhinox]

vote: LLD

L-1 vote. If GI doesn't LOLhammer in 2 seconds, then my vote is probably on scum.

[Rhinox]

That rules out AGM/GI scum team officially.

Any new theory LLD?

[Rhinox]

I'll humor you...

unvote

I'm interested to hear your case for AGM+Kdub scum team.

[Rhinox]

hmmm... I type too slow.

[Rhinox]

This is a tough post for me to make.

First off, I want to give props to kdub, AGM, and Vi. Well played all of you. Vi, I never believed you would have claimed miller as scum. After your flip, when I objectively looked at your play, I shoulda been able to read you as scum. You never so quickly label me as town when you're town, but frankly with the slump I was in, I was happier to get through D1 not being a target of yours. Kudos for getting the best of me again . AGM, I mean, it was either believe you or don't, after you claimed your result. I made a call, it was wrong. I don't regret it. There was so much nothingless to your slot before you showed up, that it made you a tough read. Nothing to go back and look at objectively. No questions to really ask you. Maybe on the day of the no lynch, I shoulda ask you who about who you thought LLD's scum partner was. And Mr. under-the-radar himself, Kdub. Actually, I shouldn't have been so quick to dismiss the possibility of you and AGM being scum. There is a reason I will get into, but I don't want to take away from the fact that you won because I and others never really thought you were scum by making excuses.

There are some things that need to be said. And this is the tough part, because I spent all evening and night yesterday for real IRL hating life because of this game. I'm glad Fate took his time getting the endgame up and I'm glad I read the dead QT first, but my emotions are still flowing a bit. I'm not upset that we lost and I'm not upset that it was my LyLo vote that caused the loss. I'm very disappointed and hurt at some of the hate that was flung at me this game. I do take it personally because I actually fucking give a shit about this game and this site I waste so much of my life on.

And I really don't need to hide it, you all know I'm referring to GI and LLD, GI for comments throughout the game and LLD for recent comments. I showed restraint in game, pretended like it didn't bother me (mostly, the "go f yourself" comment leaked out but believe me I was showing a huge amount of restraint then), because I was able to tell myself, oh one of you are probably just scum trying to get under my skin or maybe you're just trying to get a reaction out of me, or heat of the moment or whatever and it would pass, but you guys really do seem to think this poorly of me and that does kinda hurt, because I don't particularly feel that this level of hate is justified. I'll be the first to admit when I did not have a great game, and this certainly was not a great game by me, but it wasn't my worst either. And I sure as hell am not solely responsible for the town's loss and I'm not just gonna sit by as the scapegoat and get shat on.

LLD, you think I didn't consider immediately unvoting after GI didn't hammer? But I made a snap decision, that there was no way I was going to believe anything you came up with to argue for a AGM+anyone else lynch after ranting for 2 days about how sure you were that the scum were AGM and GI. The outcome wouldn't have been any different. If you wouldn't have been pushing so hard for the AGM/GI pairing, then maybe I wouldn't have come into the last day with my mind set that the scum team was either AGM/GI or LLD/Kdub. If finally confirmed-town-to-me GI wouldn't have been so sure about AGM/reck town for 3-4 days, maybe I wouldn't have put as much weight on his opinion and be able to see that GI-town doesn't rule out AGM-scum. Point is, I made a decision, it was wrong and I feel bad, but I don't regret making the choice. But I didn't make the choice in a vacuum, as much as I failed to make the right choice, you LLD failed to convince me I was making the wrong choice.

GI, man, I don't have anything against you personally. I do think you need a slice of humble pie, though. I do have a problem with how you played this game though. Did you ever give me a straight answer anytime I asked you something? Seems like everytime I asked you something, you'd not answer the question and tell me how much of an idiot I am. Maybe I was way off base suspecting you as much as I did, but I always came back to the right answer. I could see that attitude towards me if you thought I was scum, but you seemed to generally think I was town moreso than scum. If someone's going to vocally think I'm town, but call me an idiot instead of convincing me I'm wrong in a logical, rational manner, I'm always going to assume I'm being strong-armed and manipulated into being a puppet and I'm not the type of player thats going to sit around and let that happen. And if I missed where you were trying to logically and rationally refute me anytime in the game, then I am sorry and I'll upgrade my bad play to horrible play with confirmation bias. But if you're so close minded and arrogant that you can't be introspective of your own play and understand why I was stuck on you and why I felt the way I did and the parts of your play that made me think that, then you're really not as good of a player as even I was giving you credit for. I mean, the concept of claiming cop as a hider, and getting Vi lynched, that was some good play. Maybe even great play. I mean, you had role and setup help and all, but I give you props still. But I take the props away because your cockiness about it got in the way the rest of the game, and ultimately played a part in the loss seemingly without you willing to take the responsibility for it.

What I am really trying to say is, mafia is a team game, and maybe there are times when 1 person is solely responsible for a loss, but I don't feel that was the case this game. I acknowledge my part in the loss and I really do feel bad about it. I don't invest months into game to be happy about losing. Most times when I lose, I can at least say it was an enjoyable game, but I'm sorry to say that was not the case for me this time for me. I don't have a lot of respect for GI and LLD right now, but that certainly doesn't mean I'd never play with both of you again. I'd ask that you don't judge me based on this one game. I don't think I've played with either of you before this one, so I'm sorry you guys got stuck with me on one of my off games. I care a lot about the games I play and I'm always trying to improve my game. I care enough that what other's think about my play matters. LLD, if you really want to blacklist me based on one subpar performance, if you really think my play was that bad and I'm that horrible of a person, and you feel that warrants a blacklist, then thats pretty unfair to me IMO. I'm not a jerk, I don't play against my wincon, I'm passionate about games, I'm active, I do my best and actually give a shit about games and how I play and whether I win or lose. If despite all that you really think I shouldn't be playing mafia and you never want to play a game I'm in ever again, if that's really how you feel, then I'm not going to lose sleep over it because you're probably not the type of player I want to play with either then. GI, I'd have rather you'd have been scum. Would have been huge props to you for being able to get under my skin and totally manipulate me. If you really feel I'm that big of an idiot, then I look forward to the opportunity first chance I get to use that to my advantage when I'm scum against you.



tl;dr: I'm probably sounding like a whiny little bitch, but I poured my whole heart and soul into this post, and I hope you guys actually take the 2 minutes to read it and understand what I'm saying. I don't wanna cause drama and fight, but I had to get some things off my chest because this game really affected me emotionally. But you can't keep a Rhinox down. I'll redeem myself one wy or another.


P.S. Fate, sorry if I'm being a downer on your game. I enjoyed the concept of the bounty mechanic even if it was never used and you should not take my lack of enjoyment of the game as any fault of yours. I'd play in another game of yours anytime.

[Rhinox]

Relevant

I'm feeling a bit better now. I'll comment on some game things in a bit.

[Rhinox]

You had already concluded that only one of me/AGM was scum.

You knew you were town.

You knew there were 2 scum.

By extension, this means Kdub is and was confirmed scum to you by the GI non-hammer

Hence, you should have unvoted immediately after this.

:feels really dumb now:

yeah I completely missed that

[Rhinox]

Shit yeah I really should have caught that LLD. Thats a huge my bad. Only way kdub wasn't scum after GI didn't claim was if I thought you could be scum with AGM or GI, 2 options I had already ruled out. Wow I'm slumping worse than I thought. Thats something I shouldn't ever have missed.

Endgame woulda been really interesting. LLD vs AGM 50/50 vs Rhinox vs Kdub 50/50 with GI needing to make the right choice on 2 50/50's as confirmed town 2 lylo's in a row. woulda been epic

[Rhinox]

Hey Rhinox. When the emotion's over, if anyone wants to never play with you again, you'd be better off without them anyway.
I know you're better than pariah-level.

Have we ever been Town together before? If not, we should roll the dice again and see if it'll happen.~

ya know, I really don't think we have. we were scum-town in the newbie game, town-scum in Mafia 91 when I replaced in, scum-town in the first bebop, town-scum here. WAIT, WaTR mafia we were both town right? I know I was a vig but I can't remember what you were in that game, I think maybe you replaced in though?

what the hell, lets roll the dice anyways. I'm always game for a game.

[Rhinox]

@UK: haha oh yeah objection redux I knew there was another one in there. Haha gee I wonder how would I ever want to forget about that game
I mean yeah, you of anyone here has every right to think poorly of my game considering I think O:R and this game are the 2 times we've played together, neither shining moments for me to put it lightly. I SWEAR I DON'T SUCK THIS BAD ALL THE TIME HONEST!


@GI 1852: yeah I understand how you feel now knowing that you're town. I actually lost track of the point I was trying to make which is why I rage-unvoted AGM. Since we're in the answering unanswered questions phase, can you give me a better answer for how this post makes sense: iso 70: you've claimed cop, but your really a hider. You think seraph is a miller, so you rage about how crappy a 1-shot cop role is with a miller, but you're really a hider, so the rage doesn't make sense, because you didn't find out if you died if you hid behind a miller until later on. No matter how logical you could make it sound that you as scum had no incentive to switch your claim, I was always stuck because you never directly answered my question as to why you would react like this in this situation. I thought maybe the answer would be that you were just acting that way as part of the cop claim gambit, but you never actually answered and I didn't want to feed you the answer. I always felt like the no direct answer meant you were hiding something.

Regarding how to play a hider theory: yes I agree, a hider is a cop, should be played like a cop. But cops don't investigate their top suspects who they're trying to get lynched IMO. It was clear you were breadcrumbing. I'm not THAT retarded. But my point was never that you didn't crumb, it was the fact that you had multiple crumbs combined with the revelation that you were a hider and not a cop like previously thought that woulda made the whole situation very confusing had you showed up dead the next day. As for targeting scum or clearing town, idk I guess I'd shoot for more middle of the road players and hope to clear a townie that people are unsure about, someone not likely to be lynched or nked, so when the info was revealed later in the game it would be game breaking. I woulda had a list of targets D1 that included CES, UT, AT, and Kdub.

oh by the way, think you can share Fate's reaction PM to you wanting to hide N1 now?

oh and I understand the not knowing your bounty was an honest mistake, but why lie about not having townie in your role pm?

[Rhinox]

lol

Only experience playing with Rhinox, he got NK'ed on page 2.

Hooray for MACO!

LOL! I've been waiting to point this out, but I play with nacho, and lose to lurkers. I make a comment in post game how I would be on the lookout for lurkers, and nacho kills me before I even make a post in MOCO because his strategy was going to be to lurk! So what do I do this game? Lose to lurkers again!

Well, thats not really fair, AGM didn't lurk, his slot was really inactive before he showed up, and kdub didn't lurk so much as be successfully off the radar, but I still appreciate the irony

[Rhinox]

WAIT, WaTR mafia we were both town right? I know I was a vig but I can't remember what you were in that game, I think maybe you replaced in though?

I was the Neighbor to freeko. I replaced Prom King, who badly misread the part where his Role PM said "Town".

That was a good game, although TonyMontana destroyed both of us.

oh yeah haha. Its all coming back to me now.

[Rhinox]

What made me sad:

Me dying should have pretty much confirmed AGM as scum since I was the only one who was onto him.

Inorite?

>.>

@LLD: another thing to consider... If greyICE is scum, why does he kill AT and not you? At the end of D3 you did ask, "Why are you confirmed town again?" And as you yourself point out, AT has been pretty much a non-entity all game. But everyone has been calling you and him pretty much the same amount of town, so in this situation of the 2, greyscum would rather NK the one more likely to turn on him I think.

So why AT? Look who he had a case for... Reck/AGM. ICE was loving him some AGM yesterday. LLD was mostly out of the picture for 90% of the day. If anyone had motive to kill AT over ICE, it was AGM. Get rid of the immediate threat, ICE was not looking in his direction, so could be spared another day.

Vote:AGM

nk analysis FTW