Cowboy Bebop Remix [Endgame]

[Seraphim]

watching the scum turn on each other is hilarious.

More later. I promise a beautiful novella full of reads and other delicious morsels which I'm sure you will digest with pleasure.

[Rhinox]

"So we're ignoring this now?"

UK, the "this" you're referring to there has nothing to do with what type of read ICE had of toast, it had to do with the fact that early on he seemed very sure toast was scum, and then for no explained reason, he backed off on that and put toast in his null list. That flip on his position makes the whole thing look like early game distancing then backing off so as not to be forced to bus later on.

You don't have to be attacking me or accusing me of being scum to strawman me. You picked out 1 point in my argument against greyICE exaggerated it into being more significant to my overall case than it really was (calling it half the post), and then ignored the rest of the points. It is a misrep to say that point was half my post, and it is a strawman if you discount my entire post based on one of the points being weak or invalid.

(although, I think I am partly to blame for not making my points more clear. There were 9 distinct point I made, and I'll put those into a very concise list in my next post in a little bit for you.)

So yes, I am defending my case because I think it is a good one, and I'm trying to figure out if I need to communicate my points better, or if your responses are coming from a motivation of defending greyICE. Do not mistake defending my case with "being defensive". I think the summary of my points should address the rest of the comments you made. gimme a sec...

[ToastyToast]

No lies in there. Would you like me to point out where you've called them scum? I ISO'd you, its quite easy.

Wait... you're in favor of lynching me... then if I flip town... lynching seraphim?

Unvote

Vote: ToastyToast

I fucking know I'm flipping town. And this is the first reason anyone has given me that Seraphim might. Holy fuck. FAILURE. It is a fucking option.

I don't know if you're town. The fact that you "know" is meaningless, as it can be complete BS. Thats exactly what I'm in favor of, I just think there is a greater chance that YOU are scum and seraphim is town.

[GreyICE]

No, I think you did exactly what I said. You want to chain the lynches for day 1 and 2.

Die, scum.

[Rhinox]

Here's a summary of my points for clarity. I bolded and italicized my original post to separate points.

Well, first ICE voted me for a stupid reason, and then next I hear anything from him I'm on his town list.

ICE's definition of waffling seems off - adding qualifiers is not waffling. IMO, he's turning a semantics argument into a REALLY BIG DEAL. And then when he actually gets into a conversation with seraph about it, he throws out the overdefensive wikitell because it was just an offhand comment.

One of these statements does not belong:

1: "Toasty: I have a gut read of my own. You're scum. It's a good gut read. Flavor mechanics, IoA, setup speculation, and more waffles than Jahudo."
2: "I operate on gut reads and change my mind a lot? News to me."
3: "Logic has no place in a game of Mafia my ASS. Logic is what I like to operate on."

ICE: didn't like LLD asking seraph to claim. Seems like a lack of conviction to me. Isn't that the same thing he was accusing seraph of in WAFFLEGATE2011?

"Nacho's vote was bad. So he's probably town. Wrong. But town."
vs.
"Logic is what I like to operate on."

.......

Then the godawful scum/town list.

After looking at greyICE iso, I think ICE/toasty scum is looking pretty good right now:

"Toasty: I have a gut read of my own. You're scum. It's a good gut read. Flavor mechanics, IoA, setup speculation, and more waffles than Jahudo."
vs.
"Toasty - I really need to relook at some of these posts, I may be reading the situation wrong."

What changed?

And there is his posting style: answering questions with questions, asking himself rhetorical questions and then answering them, a sort of facade of having a cool arrogant swagger, and it all comes across as covering up scum insecurity, IMO. It comes across as, "I'm going to try to predict what someone is going to ask me next, ask myself, and then answer it before it gets asked." Like he's consciously thinking about things he might be accused of and nipping it in the bud before someone else brings it up. Example:

Rhinox: "You think the rest of the scum are in the lurker list?"
ICE: "Do I think all three scum are in that list of 6 people? Is this such a bad bet?

Am I married to the list and will never ever ever change my reads no matter what happens? No. But if my reads change from here on out there will be reasons for it."

This is more waffling than seraph ever did. I think the "Is that such a bad bet" is meant to imply that he does in fact think all the scum are in his list of 6 scum/null players. But then he throws the disclaimer on that he's not married to his list, which is the trying to predict the next accusation part I was talking about.

1: first I'm scum, then I'm town for no explained reasons.

2: bad argument to lure seraph in, then jump to overdefensive wikitell and now everything new seraph says proves he's scum while the original argument is no longer even a consideration.

3:

gut read followed by claiming to not use gut

- REDACTED

4: ICE is sure seraph is scum and wants him lynched, but doesn't like seraph being asked to claim. seems to me like scum trying to grab town points because he thinks a good townie would not like to see a claim yet. If he were town who really thought seraph was scum, he wouldn't be upset about a request to claim.

5: It is not logical to call nacho town because nacho made a bad vote, yet he claims to operate on logic. That means the statement that he operates on logic seems more like trying to grab town points because he thinks a good townie should operate on logic.

6: scum/town list was bad. Gives 2 scum or leaning scum, and the rest listed as either town or null (neither scum nor town). Assuming there are more than 2 scum, this means he is actually leaving everyone in the game as a potential future target, since he will have to find a 3rd scum at least and it will have to come from his town or null list. Scum like to have lots of mislynchs available.

7: Toasty is scum and then he is null for no reason, so another example of inconsistency. Aside: Null is a good place to put a scum partner, after early game distancing. I'll look into toasty more after ICE flips town.

8: posting style - asking questions, answering questions with more questions, predicting next questions and proactively answering them. Answering questions with more questions is a form of deflecting or turning the tables. Predicting future questions is scum covering his bases.

9: waffling about his scum list. makes a sarcastic comment to me about where his scum suspects are, and then goes on to waffle about how he's not married to his list, again leaving everyone as a potential suspect.

[UncertainKitten]

That's nice Rhinox. We can further discuss this when you've returned to the real world.

Ooh, you have a concise point by point. This shall be much easier to read!

1: Hasn't GreyICE answered this? Granted, at the time it still applied.
2: Mm, fine, fair point.
3: Damn straight it is >=[!
4: Not sure I agree. There is theory bandied about about L-1 claiming that could make GI's position a townier one.
5: Disagree. There are logical reasons to conclude someone is town from a bad vote, though usually they involve support reasoning as well.
6: Fairish, though I'd argue he'd only use his null list to accuse in the future, cutting his lynch pool down. His town list being so large actually contradicts your point fairly badly.
7: I HOPE you mean "after ICE flips scum" (Insert lol scumslip here against you :V). That said, ICE ALSO explained that one after your post, I think.
8: Potentially. Could also be someone weary with being asked stupid questions. But that's just me being devil's advocate. This point is decent.
9: The only fault I find here is that he felt the need to point OUT that he's "not married to his list". And again, that could be covering for idiots who think ANY contradiction is scummy. There are a lot of those.

So, that's what I think of your opinions. You have a few striking points, but not as many as you think you do.

[Jahudo]

I see what you mean Rhinox, but I just don't get to the same conclusions about Grey. I think he could be town and I feel good about my UT and Nacho suspicions now.

- The waffling still looks wrong, but I can see how Grey's case against Seraphim started off small and escalated. The waffling was only the first part, a smaller accusation. He escalated it by saying he didn't like Sera's reaction, so at that point it stopped being only about waffling. He didn't harp on it.

- I don't see anything scummy with Grey saying he plays gut and logic, and people think he isn't. Both comments sound like bravado I guess is the word. Trying to be a poor man's Fate. Grey's style is off-putting, but maybe it works for him and he knows what he's doing. I don't get an indication its alignment-motivated in any case. I feel like this is his way, so its null.

- The bizzare scum to town read changes are still a question. I would say fair enough if you don't want to say what makes someone town, but people have to say why they stop finding someone scummy. Maybe he got my name and actions mixed up with Sera's.

[Nachomamma8]

Hey Nacho, does CES' response to your Jahudo vote change anything about your opinion?

No. It does change my mind about my case.

Sera, Toasty is just today's bounty, he's not actually scum.

[UncertainKitten]

Again, there needs to be more game reading here, Jahudo.

You know, like reading this post. I don't feel like digging for the Toasty one at the moment. I'm sure you can find it with a bit of effort.

[Rhinox]

I HOPE you mean "after ICE flips scum" (Insert lol scumslip here against you :V).

yeah lol meant to say after ice flips scum. I have a bad habit of my fingers not always doing the same thing my brain is thinking while I'm typing. If anyone needs me to, I'll go dig up a recent game where I did the exact same thing.

I'll have to think on what you and Jahudo said and maybe rethink my position on ICE, but right now I don't see anyone that sticks out as scummier. Neither seraph or LLD doesn't seem like scum. Maybe I'll spend some time looking into toasty. Probably time to start looking into some of the others I've been ignoring up til now.

[Nachomamma8]

have a bad habit of my fingers not always doing the same thing my brain is thinking while I'm typing.

If anyone needs me to, I'll go dig up a recent game where I did the exact same thing.

Why did you need to tag on the bolded?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@Rhinox: Who else is scum? Besides GreyICE what's your next top scum read?

[Vi]

@Vi: GI explained. Rhinox was making a big thing of something OBVIOUSLY sarcastic. And spent half his post doing so.

And is it waffling if I quit halfway through because I can't think straight? I think I'm really tired...HOPEFULLY I can get it done this weekend.

*I disagree that it was OBVIOUSLY sarcastic, considering I missed it. (cue lame insults here)
*Half his post? Taking out the "one of these statements does not belong" and the commentary on the Nacho vote, that's definitely an exaggeration.

I'm willing to wait for an opinion, but not for long - you've already asked for me to hold on twice.

Seraphim,

I didn't ask this for show--

I think I understand what you're saying, but just for the record, why are you voting GreyICE?

Hey Kdub, is there anyone you actually want to see lynched right now?

Are you suggesting that my vote lacks conviction or that it is somehow not genuine? Otherwise I don't see the point of this question.

I prefer it when the people I'm questioning don't know what I'm doing, actually.~ And neither.
Your last post said stuff and that was good and everything, but I had to flip back to an iso-read to see who you suspected, and you're not exactly pursuing a lynch.

How about this GreyICE lynch?

Is there anyone who isn't Seraphim who deserves a wagon right now?

First off, because

[GreyICE]

's town.

watt

Not saying anything to that effect

[who your scumpartners are]

at the moment, Sera. I'm keeping those cards held close.

I have a good idea of who is scum with you though, based on your flip.

watt

And what are you planning on gaining from all the secrecy, anyway? Every time I've tried to put together SEKRET ANALYSIS it fell flat, so etc.

Jahudo 359 is... actually kind of interesting. :vagueness:

UK

364 is remarkably without a GreyICE read, as is 368, as is 372. Or at least, an

explicit

GreyICE read - I'm definitely getting the message here.
The "we're ignoring this now" quote box point is... incomprehensible.

After GreyICE 373+374 I'm convinced that the Lain av needs to be replaced with a Boondock Saints av. Other than that I'm not particularly impressed.
Y'know, I'm really pretty sure I've asked before where the Jahudo-Town read came from, and I know others have too, and I've yet to see an explanation.

The Toastpoast quoted is odd partly because I don't know where GreyICE ever accused Antitown of being scum (the others, though, yes, and GreyICE conveniently didn't say anything about that), and I'm not on that list.
However, I'm not at all interested in the false dilemma argument for Toast-scum except as one more reason to vote GreyICE. Rhinox knows why.

Rhinox and UK point-by-point, with UK providing no quotes - Please never post like that again, please and thank you.

UK

, seriously, why haven't you just come out and said you're not going to vote GreyICE instead of leaving the door open to consider?

And for the love of the time I spend on this site why isn't me vs. ICE being brought into this at all?
Did nobody see how he postured and exaggerated his way into making me second on a two-person scumlist?

Nacho 382 - Should I even ask?

---- Useless stuff beneath this line

You've literally ceased to interest. Run up the pirate flag and claim scum in the thread, it's the only fucking way you could be

more

obvious.

Well, one person in this thread has "YARR!" as a title. Is that more obvious?

Its not really bussing if I started the case on him.

Actually, that's the definition of bussing.

but, really, doesn't Katsuki (of Antitown) always lurk?

I don't think so.

[Vi]

have a bad habit of my fingers not always doing the same thing my brain is thinking while I'm typing.

If anyone needs me to, I'll go dig up a recent game where I did the exact same thing.

Why did you need to tag on the bolded?

This is a good question

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Vi, I'm very interested in Rhinox.

Especially his comments about how he has a town read on both Seraphim and I.....

As for your comments, and I not allowed to have a town read on GreyICE?

As for the secrecy, it's not so much secrecy as it is speculation that will be shot down and scoffed at due to lack of hard evidence.

[UncertainKitten]

@Vi: The we're ignoring this now? was because I thought that was part of the sarcasm thing, and also contributed to my opinion that half of Rhinox's post was about that.

Fuck you and your quote stripes, Vi, because they make shit hard to read, and whether you want it or not, I'm not going to inflict it on people.

Finally, it IS still open for me to consider. I just haven't gotten to getting a good clearheaded read of GI. So, I'd appreciate not assigning me opinions I haven't expressed, thank you very much ^-^.

[Seraphim]

Vi: I'll get to it, I promise. I just have other things to do right now, something I'm sure you can appreciate.

LLD: Fuck evidence. Mafia is a game of conflicting motivations, not facts. The only hard facts are corpses and they're dead. Let's hear those reads.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Vi: I'll get to it, I promise. I just have other things to do right now, something I'm sure you can appreciate.

LLD: Fuck evidence. Mafia is a game of conflicting motivations, not facts. The only hard facts are corpses and they're dead. Let's hear those reads.

I can't determine intent for my speculation without a FLIP. I need information from our lynch, in order to determine if my reads have any validity.

[Seraphim]

Let's pretend I flip scum then, which you seem rather convinced of. Who would you pursue as my partners? I know you don't think they mean anything without my corpse, but they do, shockingly.

[Nachomamma8]

Vi, I'm very interested in Rhinox.

Especially his comments about how he has a town read on both Seraphim and I.....

As for your comments, and I not allowed to have a town read on GreyICE?

As for the secrecy, it's not so much secrecy as it is speculation that will be shot down and scoffed at due to lack of hard evidence.

I think you and Seraphim are town, too.
Does that make me interesting too?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Vi, I'm very interested in Rhinox.

Especially his comments about how he has a town read on both Seraphim and I.....

As for your comments, and I not allowed to have a town read on GreyICE?

As for the secrecy, it's not so much secrecy as it is speculation that will be shot down and scoffed at due to lack of hard evidence.

I think you and Seraphim are town, too.
Does that make me interesting too?

Not quite. It's how he's presenting it really.

[Seraphim]

Elaborate further. And give us those speculated reads while you're at it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Elaborate further. And give us those speculated reads while you're at it.

I'll do the first part. The second part has very little backing it except a feeling I have. I'm not going into it until I have more to go on.

Rhinox has been pushing for GreyICE now for a little while. It seemed to start about around when Vi started on him, but before Vi voted. I am noticing in Rhinox's posts, a bit of a trend. He likes to call GreyICE scum (understandable, he's a suspect) but he also likes to call you town. A lot. Like... as in... in places where it's not even needed, he's posting that "I feel that both Seraphim and Lady are town, so I'm voting GreyICE".

I could understand once... to tell us that you don't like either wagon, and you prefer this new one you're voting on.

However.... to say this point multiple times without being prompted to do so is just odd.

Furthermore, I just feel that he has an interesting connection to you.

That's why he's "interesting".

No, this is not my speculation. My speculation is something else entirely, and it's almost completely gut. I'm not sharing it until I feel more confident in it.

[Jahudo]

Again, there needs to be more game reading here, Jahudo.

You know, like reading this post. I don't feel like digging for the Toasty one at the moment. I'm sure you can find it with a bit of effort.

I know, I saw that post. What I'm saying is I think there is reasoning to think it was an honest mistake. There was that one Grey post that was basically a response to one of my posts and he acted like he liked the vote on me. So I thought at least somewhat he was mistaking me and him, but I wasn't sure if it was every part or not.

[Vi]

As for your comments, and I not allowed to have a town read on GreyICE?

No, you're not.

Did I miss why you have one?

Fuck you and your quote stripes, Vi, because they make shit hard to read, and whether you want it or not, I'm not going to inflict it on people.

Then quote the whole post; I'm not going to zip back and forth between two posts (potentially three, but Rhinox did it correctly) to see what you're saying.

Finally, it IS still open for me to consider. I just haven't gotten to getting a good clearheaded read of GI. So, I'd appreciate not assigning me opinions I haven't expressed, thank you very much ^-^.

Mmmno. Since you've asked for more time you've done an excellent job of shooting down a case on

none other than GreyICE

.
It sounds like you've already found your position.

I have a good idea of who is scum with you

[Seraphim]

though,

based on your flip

.

Based on what kind of flip?