Cowboy Bebop Remix [Endgame]

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

It requires activation, but I can do that at any time; no provisions for dead Faye are made; yes, in a qt.

So Fate made a mechanic where you have to log in and out of Quicktopic to post or risk modkill, requires 0.5 seconds to break the anonymity (just agree to post a specific phrase at start of day) and is more or less functionally identical to:

Claim: Catelyn Stark - Mason Recruiter. Each night, I can target one player to find out if they are Brienne of Tarth. I can't tell the difference between a non-Brienne target and a roleblock. If the person I target is Brienne, she and I become mason buddies and become town-confirmed to each other. I have failed to find Brienne of Tarth thus far. My targets:
N1 - Percy
N2 - xvart
N3 - hascow
N4 - Mikujin

YOU LOSE

Vote: CES

Functionally identical in the sense that it's nothing a like apart from the basic possibility of forming a mason/neighbor group?

I believe the Faye/player divide is in place more than anything so that someone could be posing as Faye. If you assume a real Faye would be town, then this is the only way a neighborhood would work. If the players are posting themselves, I'd be hard-pressed to think of them as not-Faye.

Yes, it's clunky as hell. I have to go now, but don't fucking lynch me over this - I have zero motive to claim like this as scum.

[Kdub]

Does your role PM say explicitly that you will neighborize Faye, or does the wording leave open the possibility that it may be someone posing as Faye? Because from your original claim, it seemed like you said you would neighborize Faye, and that's that.

[GreyICE]

Huh.

Unvote

I need to think about this.

[GreyICE]

Yeah, and I need some flavor, or mechanics, or something.

This claim just doesn't make any sense.

[GreyICE]

Okay, quick claims analysis:

Victoria Terpsichore “VT”-Townie [Busdriver] - RHINOX

98% confirmed town. The Victoria Terpsichore = VT joke is so Fate it's not even funny. Mod gaming? Maybe, but Fate'd never waste that one on a fakeclaim.

AGM = 82% confirmed town
Playing chess with someone to jailkeep them is so silly he'd probably change it.

Kdub - if Faye Valentine isn't town, then who is? Also very townie play, etc.

Toasty - I'm sorry, still feels town AGM

LLD - Okay, so remember how LLD used to be suspicious of CES, and never mentioned Reckoner/UT except to agree he was town? I don't actually believe for her caliber of player that being totally pants is a town tell. I think someone is a role cop out there. Power roles have died night after night. LLD being that pants is just not natural.

CES - no matter how I cut it, having to create unique QT identities is ridiculous, and I'll hate Fate forever if it's true. He'll have no right to complain about [Redacted] - [redacted] - [redacted] if he put in something that pants.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

It does explicitly say Faye, but with this bounty system in place, something's gotta give.

As far as I see it, there are 2 possibilities:
1) Vicious is scum with 2 unlikelies, e.g. Vicious, Faye Valentine, Victoria Terpsichore. A bit weird that Vicious would be an exception, but possible. In this case we'd get a bunch of guaranteed non-Viciouses theoretically, but we wouldn't have the knowledge to take advantage of it, so this could work.
2) Full fake claim transparency, i.e. Fate treats each scum role as its fake claim for all purposes. A bit clunky, but it works.

Either way, the naive approach fails.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Better fake claims I could've come up with 0 minutes of research:
1-shot Gender Cop (rawr seduction)
1-shot Roleblock (rawr seduction)
Role thief (rawr con man)

[Lady Lambdadelta]

GI, you're saying that my suspicion on AGM is weird?

Well, let me see. A whole host of my other suspects just got massive town reads on them (such as toasty).

And my claim basically makes AGM's a scum RBer.

Add that along to you calling UT town all game based on Meta... I'm very confident in the AGM/Grey scum team.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Alisa-Townie [One-shot Hider]

Question: did your role PM use this format? Because I'm having trouble imagining how you'd mistake that for one-shot hider.

[GreyICE]

Alisa-Townie [One-shot Hider]

Question: did your role PM use this format? Because I'm having trouble imagining how you'd mistake that for one-shot hider.

Yes. And the answer was I skimmed it and never opened it again until Fate corrected me N1.

@LLD: Nope. Could make you a scum enabler. Or your ability does nothing and the mod just fucked with us but good

Actually the person whose ability worries me the most in terms of game balance is kdub. But it'll take a second to go there.

I'm wondering if CES has a role that exists to balance Kdub.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

That's not actually why I asked that question. I asked because you explicitly told us your role PM used a different format.

I have specific information for:

flavorname, role name [bounty reward]

all in one line.

Cool. I don't. I have flavor name, [bounty reward]

Unvote, vote: GreyICE

[Rhinox]

Alisa-Townie [One-shot Hider]

Question: did your role PM use this format? Because I'm having trouble imagining how you'd mistake that for one-shot hider.

Yes. And the answer was I skimmed it and never opened it again until Fate corrected me N1.

@LLD: Nope. Could make you a scum enabler. Or your ability does nothing and the mod just fucked with us but good

Actually the person whose ability worries me the most in terms of game balance is kdub. But it'll take a second to go there.

I'm wondering if CES has a role that exists to balance Kdub.

uh... ICE? Didn't we already have this discussion D2, where you said you didn't have townie in your role PM?

p-edit yeah, what CES said.

[GreyICE]

That's not actually why I asked that question. I asked because you explicitly told us your role PM used a different format.

I have specific information for:

flavorname, role name [bounty reward]

all in one line.

Cool. I don't. I have flavor name, [bounty reward]

Unvote, vote: GreyICE

And explicitly told you differently yesterday, when I used it to test toasty's alignment.

But hey! Thanks for showing you're reading the thread.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I ignored that yesterday since it was stupid (why would Toastscum try to push a mislynch on Rhinoxtown with an argument he would know wouldn't hold up?) and frankly, I don't really care about the details. The point is that you lied about the format of your role PM with no discernible town motive at some point. Thus, you're scum.

[GreyICE]

Very discernable motive, CES. Wanted to see who would pick up on it, who would let it linger, who would walk into a trap.

You get run to L-1, and SUDDENLY remember something that I told you yesterday and was null when you were pushing Jahudo.

It's served its purpose indeed.

Vote: CES

Soooo much better reason to lynch than role speculation.

[Rhinox]

greyICE, what was the purpose of saying you didn't have a normal role on both Day 1 and Day 2 then?

[Kdub]

As far as I see it, there are 2 possibilities:
1) Vicious is scum with 2 unlikelies, e.g. Vicious, Faye Valentine, Victoria Terpsichore. A bit weird that Vicious would be an exception, but possible. In this case we'd get a bunch of guaranteed non-Viciouses theoretically, but we wouldn't have the knowledge to take advantage of it, so this could work.
2) Full fake claim transparency, i.e. Fate treats each scum role as its fake claim for all purposes. A bit clunky, but it works.

#1 is possible given that Spike was non-town, but if true, it's a bit of a coincidence that the only scum death so far has been obv-scum Vicious. Also, there are at least strong flavor reasons for Spike being a lyncher, whereas there aren't really good flavor reasons for any of the claimed characters to be scum, with your claim (Whitney) being the possible exception.

#2 seems like it has the potential to be bastardly. He's telling you straight up that you can be in a neighborhood with Faye, but that player has a possibility of not being Faye?

You get run to L-1, and SUDDENLY remember something that I told you yesterday and was null when you were pushing Jahudo.

Pretty much this. Your sudden push on Grey reeks of desperation, and you completely ignored this discussion when Rhinox brought it up earlier.

Rhinox, any opinion on CES's claim?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Very discernable motive, CES. Wanted to see who would pick up on it, who would let it linger, who would walk into a trap.

That's a horrible reason. You do not lie about the formatting of your role PM just because someone might respond to it at some point, especially if the town has a good reason to distrust you because you just claimed townie [one-shot hider] instead of one-shot cop.

You get run to L-1, and SUDDENLY remember something that I told you yesterday and was null when you were pushing Jahudo.

I don't think it's clear at all from yesterday's posts that you were retconning your claim. And I didn't "SUDDENLY remember" anything. I've been thinking about my role and the bounty system and I realised that if my role PM hadn't explicitly stated neighborhood, I might've felt the same way about Faye Valentine as UK did about your role. I always felt the D2 role thing was weird, but the UK evidence trumped it. So I looked back through your posting when I realised the UK evidence wasn't nearly as much of a slamdunk as I originally thought it was.

and you completely ignored this discussion when Rhinox brought it up earlier.

I actually voted for GreyICE at some point due to that discussion.

[GreyICE]

greyICE, what was the purpose of saying you didn't have a normal role on both Day 1 and Day 2 then?

Day 1 I seriously fucking forgot. And I don't bother to check these things much before claiming. I remembered who I was (seriously who forgets her) and that I was a one shot hider who hid with someone in her bar. I claimed 1-shot investigate (which Hider ROUGHLY is) as that had a higher chance of drawing the NK than a town hider, and also made sure that my target wouldn't get NKed for the 2-for-1 (because otherwise the game turns into 'see if I can breadcrumb my target well enough the scum can't find it but the town can').

Day 2 it was just to see who would play games with me. I maintain Toasty-scum would have HAPPILY sheeped my claim over yours at L-1. It's just such a scum way to alley suspicion/push a mislynch. "I match your PM too, aren't we good friends? Lets go get that Rhino who tried to lynch you all yesterday!"

PEdit: Town has a good reason to suspect someone who claims a 1-shot hider as a 1-shot cop? What would that be, pray tell? And do explain how my actions were in ANY way anti-town.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, any opinion on CES's claim?

The mechanics are weird, but not as weird as originally made out to be. I don't think that in itself is enough to disbelieve it.

for example...

It seems like a very contrived ability to me. You are a neighborizer...but you have no choice who to neighborize? You have to activate it, even though you have no choice who your target is? Why not just skip all the unnecessary mechanics and just say "your bounty reward is to become neighbors with the player who is character X"?

...the reward has to be neighbor

izer

because faye does not know he will become a neighbor. The role turns faye into a neighbor, thus the -izer, whether or not he has a choice of target. Forcing him to activate it also fits with -izer, because it can be blocked, tracked, watched, etc, or he can choose not to do it for whatever reason. If it was watered down to "your bounty reward is to become neighbors with the player who is character X", then Faye would have to have the same reward, or have a hidden reward (bastard modding?)

As for grey's objections, unless there is a specific mod-notice against it, then breaking annonymity can be a feature, not a bug - That is, faye/whitney having the option to reveal their mafiascum.net usernames, or not.

As for the ability actually confirming each other as town due to names, I don't see that as the case. We already pretty much established scum have an actual role name and a fake claim name thanks to Vi. It is my guess that bounties use the fake name when the target is scum, given that we haven't seen an obvscum name bounty target. Otherwise, scum bounty target comes up, every previous bounty target is confirmed town. It only makes sense that whitney or faye could be a scum safe claim.

Additionally sort of as an aside, I think every theme game I've been in as scum has had a collective scum role something to the effect of "once per cycle, give me a role and I'll write a full flavor PM to go with it." I'd expect that in there for the scum as well.


So, I don't immediately jump to the conclusion that CES's claim in BS based on the reasons given.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I maintain Toasty-scum would have HAPPILY sheeped my claim over yours at L-1. It's just such a scum way to alley suspicion/push a mislynch. "I match your PM too, aren't we good friends? Lets go get that Rhino who tried to lynch you all yesterday!"

It seems extremely likely to me that each role PM has Name - Role name [bounty power], so pushing the mislynch doesn't work because people can back up Rhinox. I wouldn't even expect that type of subterfuge from Toastyscum anyway even if it were useful.

PEdit: Town has a good reason to suspect someone who claims a 1-shot hider as a 1-shot cop? What would that be, pray tell? And do explain how my actions were in ANY way anti-town.

That wouldn't be that bad - it's more the fact that you went from having a role to only having a bounty power. You yourself admitted you fucked it up. If you lie to the town, you should have a good reason for it. The lying itself wasn't anti-town; it was just a badly thought-out excuse.

[GreyICE]

I didn't lie. I fucked up.

That's totally completely, 100% different. I really remembered my power being described as hiding with a person in my bar. I didn't remember it being a bounty.

What's the scum motive for counterclaiming my scumbuddy there? UK already called me 100% confirmed town. I could say I investigated someone and got an innocent, we could NK them later, and roll forward. Push Jahudo over Vi. Push Nacho for lurking. Push Rhinox for being dumb. Push you for being unreadable. There's all sorts of things a Vi-GreyICE scumteam could have done. Fuck, we could always leave Toasty alive and scumplain about Godfather WIFOM.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

The lie was the bit about not having a role name. Was the "anti-town" comment not about that?

I don't think what you did would've been a bad play for scum if you hadn't claimed not to have a role name. Not having to claim an innocent on Toasty (who was the obvious investigation target) could easily result in an extra mislynch (assuming Toastytown) and the switcheroo probably doesn't hurt you enough to overcome the conf. innocent status conferred upon you by UK and the sooner the game ends, the less likely we are to question it.

Give me one good reason you lied about having a role name.

[Rhinox]

What's the scum motive for counterclaiming my scumbuddy there?

You wanna go there? What was the scum motive for Jahudo-hyposcum counterclaiming Vi-scum possibility that you were pushing?

[Kdub]

I actually voted for GreyICE at some point due to that discussion.

It appears you did vote for him, but you gave no input or a reason for your vote, so it wasn't clear at all that you were doing it because you agreed with Rhinox's case.

If it was watered down to "your bounty reward is to become neighbors with the player who is character X", then Faye would have to have the same reward, or have a hidden reward (bastard modding?)

Since the player needs to be on the lynch wagon to get their reward, it wouldn't quite be a "hidden reward" the way you are putting it.

As for grey's objections, unless there is a specific mod-notice against it, then breaking annonymity can be a feature, not a bug - That is, faye/whitney having the option to reveal their mafiascum.net usernames, or not.

We already pretty much established scum have an actual role name and a fake claim name thanks to Vi. It is my guess that bounties use the fake name when the target is scum, given that we haven't seen an obvscum name bounty target. Otherwise, scum bounty target comes up, every previous bounty target is confirmed town. It only makes sense that whitney or faye could be a scum safe claim.

I had forgotten that Vi had fakeclaimed Julia, but this again raises the problem that CES says that his ability is unambiguous in saying that he will specifically neighborize Faye. Either the possibility exists that the player in question (me, in this case) is not Faye, which would be a direct lie from the mod to the player, or the ability confirms my role, which either defeats the whole purpose of "neighborizer" instead of "masonizer", or suggests that Faye is scum in this game, which is not supported by either flavor or the flips we have seen so far.

My basic objection with it is that there are too many little issues with the claim that each individually require an ad hoc justification, and it adds up either to a role that mechanically is extremely contrived (in contrast to everybody else's relatively straightforward claims so far), or scum making a bad fakeclaim. Remember, we ended up lynching Seraphim because he claimed a mechanic that would have indicated poor setup design if true. He wasn't mafia, but he was certainly lying about his ability. I'm feeling the same thing here with CES. His sudden push on Grey just cements my opinion.

I think we've heard from everybody on the claim. CES's turn against Grey is crap, and I'm not seeing any reason that would make me vote someone other than CES. This is the play for today.
VOTE: CES